Slayer Archer advice?

[Zaetar]

Hello everyone, in today's episode i'll ask you about archers... Alright.

Character: Human, Slayer, black hair, single, capricorn... you get the picture.

Progression:
1-4 Slayer
5-6 Shadowdancer
7+ Slayer

Feats:
1. Dodge, Mobility
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Point-Blank Shot
9. Precise Shot
12.Improved Precise Shot
15.Stealthy
16.Skill Focus (Stealth)
18.Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim

Talents:
2. Camouflage
4. Deadly Range -> Bleeding Attack *retrain after getting goggles of sniping*
8. Fast Stealth
10.Powerful Sneak (unchained version)
12.Stealthy Sniper
14.Master Sniper
16.Feat
18.Feat

Questions:
1. Should I get more stealth or more combat stuff?
2. Is the 2 level dip into Shadowdancer worth the 3 feats that will delay my archer-ness? (I'd be getting HiPS and darkvision...)
3. This build is highly dependant on the Master Sniper talent, would you use it?
4. Would you allow your players to use it? Bear in mind that you can easly counter sneak attacks with anything immune to precision damage and Stealth with anything that sees with blindsight and tremorsense.
5. Well... there is no 5, yet.

Note: Ninjas (or anything related to asians) are not allowed, same with guns.

If you feel like being Simon Cowell, go ahead, I'd really appreciate criticism on this.

[Captain Morgan]

Sniping isn't often a practical skill in Pathfinder combat. That said, you can make a pretty solid go of it using a Slayer with a wand of Gravity Bow, Vital Strike, and a heavy crossbow.

The longbow is of course superior for normal combat, but maybe you can use both?

Improved Precise Shot should probably be snagged at level 6, especially since you're gonna be using cover to obscure yourself at times.

[Geddy2112]

I strongly question going human-sure, you get the extra feat, but you are burning three to enter a class to get HIPS and darkvision. Entering shadowdancer slows down you getting HIPS from advanced rogue talents, although it is terrain specific. Going half elf would get you skill focus(stealth) off the bat, and you would have low light vision. A half orc or various other races get darkvision.


Stealthy is a garbage feat, even for a stealth sniper build. At higher levels you will have invis from potions, wands, casters etc. Skill focus is better but not great. Better get some combat stuff earlier on, and just use magic for stealth at higher levels. More things can see through HIPS than magic anyways. Plus, you might not always be able to snipe, so being able to take a shot is more important.

If you really wanted to go sniper, you could be a small race for the bonus and ease of hiding behind stuff. Losing out on damage, but it is easier.

[grarrrg]

Progression:
1-4 Slayer
5-6 Shadowdancer
7+ Slayer

Shadowdancer has a requirement of Stealth: 5 Ranks
You must have 5 actual points in the Stealth skill before entering the class.
The easy fix for this is to just take Shadowdancer at level 6 instead of 5.


14.Master Sniper

This is either new, or 3rd party, as I am not finding anything official.

[squiggit]

This is either new, or 3rd party, as I am not finding anything official.

The latter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---advanced-rogue-talents/master-sniper

[Florian]

So far, pretty underwhelmed by the concept. Too much investment for too little gain. Pick a Half Orc for Darkvision instead of wasting three feats that are practically useless to you on entering Shadowdancer.
Pick the Sniper and Stygian Slayer archetypes, ask your gm for permission to pick quicken spell-like ability (invisibility) as a feat. For added fun, chose RCS thrown and invest feats into the startoss feat chain.

[Ravens_cry]

The latter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---advanced-rogue-talents/master-sniper
Heh, take with the Halfling Alternate racial feature 'Swift as Shadows' for an added -10 to your penalty, making for 0 penalty with the prerequisite 'Stealthy Sniper'. 0 x 2 is still zero. :smallamused:

[Florian]

Heh, take with the Halfling Alternate racial feature 'Swift as Shadows' for an added -10 to your penalty, making for 0 penalty with the prerequisite 'Stealthy Sniper'. 0 x 2 is still zero. :smallamused:

And its still [Ox Manure]. This level of investment on something Greater Invisibility does as standard _and_ can be foiled by a lot of monster senses that are common around the level (10+) we talk about (advanced talent) is really not worth it.

[Da Beast]

Looking at the sniper archtype on the PFSRD it seems like the second level deadly range ability does not replace the normal talent gained at this level and is completely free. Is this a typo or do snipers really just get a strong fight opener at no cost?

[Florian]

Looking at the sniper archtype on the PFSRD it seems like the second level deadly range ability does not replace the normal talent gained at this level and is completely free. Is this a typo or do snipers really just get a strong fight opener at no cost?

For whatever reason, the guys over at Paizo seem to value Tracking pretty high.
It's not incommon to see archetypes that replace tracking having very nice features in place of that and the Sniper is a good example of it.
So, no typo, you simply get it.

[Barstro]

Shadowdancer has a requirement of Stealth: 5 Ranks
You must have 5 actual points in the Stealth skill before entering the class.

I think I read before that the PC could choose skills before choosing the class.

But maybe that was some other combination, since you do not know his many skill points you have until you pick a class.

Proven incorrect

[Florian]

I think I read before that the PC could choose skills before choosing the class.

But maybe that was some other combination, since you do not know his many skill points you have until you pick a class.

Huh? What are you talking about? In PF, you can gain 1 skill rank per level, meaning your maximum rank is your level. If an entry requirement for an PrC is X ranks, that corresponds to X levels.
Shadowdancer needing 5 ranks in stealth automatically means there must be 5 class levels before entering that PrC.

[Barstro]

Huh? What are you talking about? In PF, you can gain 1 skill rank per level, meaning your maximum rank is your level. If an entry requirement for an PrC is X ranks, that corresponds to X levels.
Shadowdancer needing 5 ranks in stealth automatically means there must be 5 class levels before entering that PrC.

I don't disagree with what you say. But the logic I may have seen before was along the lines of;
1) Reach level 5
2) choose skills
3) Qualify for class.
4) Choose class

But the more I think about it, since you cannot know how many skill points you gain before choosing a class, that step two was choosing feats to qualify for a class.

Proven incorrect

[Florian]

I don't disagree with what you say. But the logic I may have seen before was along the lines of;
1) Reach level 5
2) choose skills
3) Qualify for class.
4) Choose class

But the more I think about it, since you cannot know how many skill points you gain before choosing a class, that step two was choosing feats to qualify for a class.

You have a flaw on your logik there.
Yes, once you reach a new level there is no fixed procedure on how you go about asigning stuff.
But, and that is important here, for a PrC you must have fulfilles all prerequisites before you actually level up, else it is simply no option you can chose to pick.

In this case, all feats must have alread been picked, all skill ranks asigned, else you can't chose to enter the PrC at all.

[Zaetar]

Love criticism! So HiPS isnt the big deal then? Thought every stealth build had to have it for best efficiency.

Other than that the only reason i did not go for halfling or half-orc was the feat requirement. I could very well grab terrain mastery for talents if i know that im not going to travel around the entire world... i guess that has a bit of a campaign-dependant factor.

You are also right about the requirements, I forgot about that when i was making that little list while trying to think of a way to get all that and mixed it with D&D's.

The reason i did not pick the sniper archetype was because I could get little range increase with a talent and then lots if I can get my hands on sniper goggles, which would later let me retrain said talent into something more useful. Retraining an entire archetype... sounds troublesome. Can i retrain back to normal as in no-archetype?

About Stygian, if I could get my DM to allow me to do that quicken-spell invis, sure.

The idea of this character is a camouflaged commando, not a magical sniper. But yeah i guess everything has magic on it at higher levels.

[Florian]

@Zaetar:

Magic is simply a part of the game world. Yes, that might go against ones sense of versimilute, but honestly, we don't have the personal experience to cope with it.

So it's simple: Don't waste traits, feats and tricks on something a simple level 4 wand can provide much earlier. You have UMD as a class skill for that, stygian makes it even simpler.

The sniper aspect itself is galen care of by the assassinate advanced trick, so there is that.

[Yanisa]

I don't disagree with what you say. But the logic I may have seen before was along the lines of;
1) Reach level 5
2) choose skills
3) Qualify for class.
4) Choose class

But the more I think about it, since you cannot know how many skill points you gain before choosing a class, that step two was choosing feats to qualify for a class.

You have a flaw on your logik there.
Yes, once you reach a new level there is no fixed procedure on how you go about asigning stuff.
But, and that is important here, for a PrC you must have fulfilles all prerequisites before you actually level up, else it is simply no option you can chose to pick.

In this case, all feats must have alread been picked, all skill ranks asigned, else you can't chose to enter the PrC at all.

*coughs*


When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
Source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) (or see page 30 of your Core Rulebook)

[Florian]

Yeah, your quote states that you first must qualify for the class.
So?

[Xerlith]

It is a fixed procedure.

[Barstro]

It is a fixed procedure.

As originally stated, it was something I thought I read on a post somewhere. Glad there is a black letter rule and that we can get off the tangent I created..

[shendelzar]

Ive thought about making a sniping slayer myself...
my though was to use a hvy crossbow though....

5 levels in ace bolt gunslinger(to add dex to dmg)
4 levels in rogue(to get minor magic talent and get gravity bow as a SLA)
rest of levels in sniper slayer to deal sneak attack on your first attack at normal weapon range increment(pretty far for a crossbow)
take all the archer feats and vital strike feats


use stealth to hide - make that one devastating attack at 6d8(greater vital strike + gravity bow hvy crossbow) + all those fun D6s of sneak attacks +dex + deadly aim -if they live, then re stealth(take the talent that lowers the snipe penalty). theres also a feat or ability in ace bolt that increases your crit multiplier + Keen or imp crit gives you a 17-20 x4 crit rating.

**edited for a couple spelling mistakes

[Zaetar]

Back on topic...


@Zaetar:

Magic is simply a part of the game world. Yes, that might go against ones sense of versimilute, but honestly, we don't have the personal experience to cope with it.

So it's simple: Don't waste traits, feats and tricks on something a simple level 4 wand can provide much earlier. You have UMD as a class skill for that, stygian makes it even simpler.

The sniper aspect itself is galen care of by the assassinate advanced trick, so there is that.

The little experience i've got with other players was not rich in the magic item department. And magic shops are "rare" according to my DM. So we kind of depended on ourselves for that, and since the other 4 guys always went for something more martialn than magic... well, you could call it a band of brutes.

Apparently my DM did not want to mess with magic items? No clue.

In any case I could check spell effects and how they work with wands, scrolls or whatever.
But I still, I want to have something for and by myself. A wizard has many spells, a barbarian has rage, a ranger has companion and some spells, rogue has... sneak attack and pretty much nothing else?

Just did not want to make a character dependant on magic items. You get my point?

[Florian]

There is this neat little thing called WBL and there are enough gms out there that eff this up, thereby widening the gap between casters and mundanes. Eff the notion of the "MagicMart", complete mundanes like the Slayer just work on the assumption that they can get their hands on the magic they need to function in the world.

In a sense, you are right. The Rogue and the Slayer have nothing else but pure damage, based in Sneak Attack. The important point here is, that both don't benefit from ranged combat and use weapons to simply overwhelm their target.
Both work damn well with TWF, but the Slayer is way better at debuffing the target then the Rogue, who is better at dealing pure damage.

The way you want to go simply is one of the worst routes for a Slayer to take and there is next to no way to salvage that situation.

[Triskavanski]

The latter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---advanced-rogue-talents/master-sniper

The former. http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Master%20Sniper



One problem I have with the whole "Don't waste stuff on what wands can do because magic is a big part of the game." And then saying to use invisibility..

Magic is part of the game. Magic counters Magic.

You'll never be able to stealth using invisibility with guys who have true seeing, while HIPS from an EX source at the very least will allows you to stealth past these guys. Then of course there is also see invisibility.

Invisibility is nice, yes, but its not as fool proof as having HIPS and Invisibility.

[Zaetar]

Okay... i'll take all the comments as answering my questions from 1 to 4...

5) Ignoring the character i made, how would you make a stealth ranged rogue or slayer?

Restrictions: only core races; no guns; no psionics; no ninjas (or any asian thing); may or may not be able to find the magic items you need (think of your d20 friends as martial brutes, so they wont be casting anything, much less crafting), so dont make the character dependant on them.

[Barstro]

Okay... i'll take all the comments as answering my questions from 1 to 4...

5) Ignoring the character i made, how would you make a stealth ranged rogue or slayer?

Are you absolutely locked on Rogue or Slayer? Or is there a concept you are going for and you think those are the only way?

Edit; I'm currently playing a ranged Inquisitor and he is the heaviest hitter in the group. He does not rely on other members for magic, has no magic items required over and above what you would want for a slayer, and at level 13 (if he were using a mundane weapon and had no STR or DEX enhancing items) would be at 22/22/22/17 for 1d8+19+4d6 on the second round without too much optimizing. I'm not sure how stealthy he can be, since I play him very "in your face".

[Triskavanski]

For me, I'd go Unchained Rogue over Slayer to start off with.

Human - Replace Skilled with Fey touched.
Replace bonus feat with three skill focus feats. (at level 1, 8 ,and 16. )

This would get us Skill Focus (Stealth) first level, Skill focus (Perception) 8th level and then whatever the heck else.

Skill Unlock (Stealth) at fifth level, with Skill Unlock (Perception or Acrobatics) 10th level.

Take Master Sniper from Dirty Tactics so get in 2 shots instead instead of just 1.

[Florian]

Ok, some basic thoughts on the Slayer.

Unlike the rogue, this is a full BAB class and it is geared well towards being a Switch-Hitter. The class itself is pretty brutal at debuffing enemies and throwing conditions at them.

For ranged combat, you want the Sniper archetype and aim towards the Assassinate advanced trick, as well as the Silent Kill feat.
You pick ranger RCS ranged for this, as it helps keep your Dex requirement as low as possible. You don't need too high Dex here, as we talk about shooting flat-footed enemies.

Aim for the Gruesome Slaughter feat chain. You start combat with assassinate, triggering the sickened condition on all other possible targets, then try to get off another sniper shot before picking up your Falchion and simply finishing it.

[DarkSoul]

Going back to the original character idea... is this for Pathfinder or 3.5? The reason I ask is because your thread says PF but your feats every three levels say 3.5. If it's PF your feats come every odd level, not every third, so you're short a couple.

[Zaetar]

Are you absolutely locked on Rogue or Slayer? Or is there a concept you are going for and you think those are the only way?

Edit; I'm currently playing a ranged Inquisitor and he is the heaviest hitter in the group. He does not rely on other members for magic, has no magic items required over and above what you would want for a slayer, and at level 13 (if he were using a mundane weapon and had no STR or DEX enhancing items) would be at 22/22/22/17 for 1d8+19+4d6 on the second round without too much optimizing. I'm not sure how stealthy he can be, since I play him very "in your face".

My issue is that every ranged character i make ends up being stealth-oriented. Fighters are waaaay to combat oriented, Rangers got spells and companion.

The picture of the character i wanted to make is a person that does not rely on magic (or does so in minor escale as in Stygian Slayer) and does most things by pure skill. So that only leaves me with a spell-less ranger, which is not really good; a fighter, which is a combat brute no matter what you make it fight with and then the rogue/slayer with stealth abilities and features.

An Inquisitor gives me the picture of a witch/monster hunter basically... your typical Van Helsing.
for my character imagine something like this (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c3/31/05/c33105d482bf7288e199f718cbfb772c.jpg) (Garrett from the Thief game) and maybe add some effects from his possible magic like this (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/75/95/5e/75955e0ac5e530df02701f91dcf935fb.jpg). Get the idea?

[Florian]

The flaw here is that, unlike games like Thief or Assassins Creed, you won't be able to drop an enemy without Assassinate and the game mechanics don't hold up to that.

[Barstro]

for my character imagine something like... Garrett from the Thief game. Get the idea?

Oh sure. Personally, I just think of my Inquisitor's personal buffing spells as SLAs for fluff (and those are really just for protection for diseases, etc. and armor/weapon enhancement). If you cannot, or choose to not treat it that way, for your own fluff reasons, then who am I to say differently?

I also take it that Zen Archer is out for either similar fluff reasons and/or your DM cannot conceive of someone with that class not being Asian?

[Zaetar]

Going back to the original character idea... is this for Pathfinder or 3.5? The reason I ask is because your thread says PF but your feats every three levels say 3.5. If it's PF your feats come every odd level, not every third, so you're short a couple.

Sigh... apologies for that. I helped some friends to make some characters and it was for D&D, I now play pathfinder.
Guess yeah I missed feats, thanks for pointing it out.

I'm still clueless on what exactly are my options. What would they be if I want to fight based on stealth?

I mean, the role, what am i supposed to do? Just hide and shoot? Assassinate? Hide only to avoid enemies but otherwise be a simple archer? Debuffer?

[Florian]

The problem part here is "stealth".
In itself, thats's just an opposed skill check vs. Perception. Take higher level sensory abilities into account, like Tremorsense, and stealth as an concept simply ceases to exist.
The basic idea to use stealth for offense as well as defense is nothing new and even intuitiv, no questions here. They can't attack what they don't see. It just doesn't work out this way.

Archery, Sniping and Sneak Attack really don't mix well and both Rogue and Slayer should stay away from that beyond the Alpha Strike. The Slayer actually is better here, as that class can pick assassinate and has a chan e at killing the most important target outright. After that, TWF and oberwhelming the enemy with sheer damage will win the day.

[Zaetar]

The problem part here is "stealth".
In itself, thats's just an opposed skill check vs. Perception. Take higher level sensory abilities into account, like Tremorsense, and stealth as an concept simply ceases to exist.
The basic idea to use stealth for offense as well as defense is nothing new and even intuitiv, no questions here. They can't attack what they don't see. It just doesn't work out this way.

Archery, Sniping and Sneak Attack really don't mix well and both Rogue and Slayer should stay away from that beyond the Alpha Strike. The Slayer actually is better here, as that class can pick assassinate and has a chan e at killing the most important target outright. After that, TWF and oberwhelming the enemy with sheer damage will win the day.

Well.. there are 2 feats to counter blindsight and scent, aswell as an item to counter tremorsense.

In any case, if I want Stealth and Archery in the same sentence without a "no" between them, what do i want? Rogue and Slayer can take talents which give really good bonuses to sniping and stealth.

[Triskavanski]

The problem part here is "stealth".
In itself, thats's just an opposed skill check vs. Perception. Take higher level sensory abilities into account, like Tremorsense, and stealth as an concept simply ceases to exist.
The basic idea to use stealth for offense as well as defense is nothing new and even intuitiv, no questions here. They can't attack what they don't see. It just doesn't work out this way.

Archery, Sniping and Sneak Attack really don't mix well and both Rogue and Slayer should stay away from that beyond the Alpha Strike. The Slayer actually is better here, as that class can pick assassinate and has a chan e at killing the most important target outright. After that, TWF and oberwhelming the enemy with sheer damage will win the day.


Well, if you get higher level sensory abilities, take in higher level sensory ability defeating things.

Tremorsense - Don't touch the ground. Don't get within 60 feet of them. Wear Boots of the soft step if you really want to be hidden.
Scent - Scentblock (There is an alchemical version that removes the enemies ability to smell you.)
Blindsense/Blind sight - Dampen Pressence
Trueseeing - Just use Stealth Skill.

[Florian]

So your advising someone who doesn't want to use magic to use magic?
At tjat point, we're again at "quaff a potion of fly, follow up by a charge of greater invisibily from your wand, finish with some rye bread, bacon and a shot of vodka"

[Triskavanski]

Are you talking to me on that point?

Cause Most of what I said is pretty mundane methods of defeating Super-senses. Even not touching the ground. Hell, the only thing Magical was the boots. But if you're a sniping archer, should you really be within 60 feet of the guy you're trying to snipe in the first place?

[Zaetar]

Well, if you get higher level sensory abilities, take in higher level sensory ability defeating things.

Tremorsense - Don't touch the ground. Don't get within 60 feet of them. Wear Boots of the soft step if you really want to be hidden.
Scent - Scentblock (There is an alchemical version that removes the enemies ability to smell you.)
Blindsense/Blind sight - Dampen Pressence
Trueseeing - Just use Stealth Skill.

This are exactly the ones I mentioned before, thank you i forgot their names and only knew there was an item for tremorsense, just did not know which one.


So your advising someone who doesn't want to use magic to use magic?
At tjat point, we're again at "quaff a potion of fly, follow up by a charge of greater invisibily from your wand, finish with some rye bread, bacon and a shot of vodka"

I can admit I could use some magic, be it in the amount of a Stygian Slayer maximum. Maybe that occasional spell-store dagger or a wand for a general purpose, but nothing else. The core of the build itself should have no magic involved, that would be the idea of the build i want to use.

[Triskavanski]

Not even getting a +1 bow?

[Florian]

That will lead us in circles, you know?

There are ways to defeat anything, if you look long and deep enough and buy the most weird stuff. At one point, simply buying magic will be the only conclusion.

It is possible to create a build based on a "naked" PB15 charakter and it will be effective, but that won't help at all as long as you stay fixated on the "stealth sniper" being the end goal, something that simply is not doable.

[Zaetar]

What i mean is innate magic, from the character itself. Not from magical items. I think you are taking this too deep... I just want a build that's not dependant on magic items, of course, get them if you can but not depend on them. I dont want the core of my character to be based on a wand, see what i mean? Items are okay to a certain degree but not going crazy as to become a lighthouse of magic auras.


That will lead us in circles, you know?

There are ways to defeat anything, if you look long and deep enough and buy the most weird stuff. At one point, simply buying magic will be the only conclusion.

It is possible to create a build based on a "naked" PB15 charakter and it will be effective, but that won't help at all as long as you stay fixated on the "stealth sniper" being the end goal, something that simply is not doable.

Yeah well, the main idea of the character would be a stealth sniper, but being an archer is what it essentially is.

Edit: Count the character as a Stygian Slayer for less issues on the spells department. Now can we proceed with how you could build it?

Edit 2: Lets add the ninja tricks for creativity's sake, let's see what you guys can come up to. It might be roleable in some non-ninja way.

[grarrrg]

The latter
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/drop-dead-studios---advanced-rogue-talents/master-sniper
The former. http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Master%20Sniper
I'm inclined to believe it is the latter:


Talents:
...14.Master Sniper

Although both abilities wind up in a similar area: extra attacks while stealth-ing.

[Zaetar]

I'm inclined to believe it is the latter:



Although both abilities wind up in a similar area: extra attacks while stealth-ing.



Hit "edit post"
Choose the "delete post" option near top of screen.
No one (else) has to know!

Oh my god! Since when does that button exist?!

Also yeah, I do mean the latter one though... full attack instead of just one shot taking an extra -20. In any case, the talent came before the feat... so i'd use the talent if i can. That would give me an edge against anything that cant see me. But even then... I'd still be dealing less damage than a twf rogue, and it would work only if i can stealth to do it, and it would be pointless against creatures immune to precision damage. So it's not so op, its just another thing with the 2 obvious rogue weaknesses.

Should I start by trying to figure out how to get HiPS? Since i think it would be the most important thing i need?

So far I got the following:
-Hellcat Stealth would let me get HiPS in normal and bright light only at -10.
-Improved Eldritch heritage (shadow) would get me the 9th level bloodline power, which is HiPS as long as im near a shadow that i dont project.
-1 Level into shadowdancer at the cost of getting combat reflexes, dodge and mobility, and getting HiPS and evasion. Another level would get me darkvision 60' and uncanny dodge.
-Getting favored terrain talents to use with the HiPS talent that's restricted to favored terrains only.

[Captain Morgan]

What i mean is innate magic, from the character itself. Not from magical items. I think you are taking this too deep... I just want a build that's not dependant on magic items, of course, get them if you can but not depend on them. I dont want the core of my character to be based on a wand, see what i mean? Items are okay to a certain degree but not going crazy as to become a lighthouse of magic auras.



Yeah well, the main idea of the character would be a stealth sniper, but being an archer is what it essentially is.

Edit: Count the character as a Stygian Slayer for less issues on the spells department. Now can we proceed with how you could build it?

Edit 2: Lets add the ninja tricks for creativity's sake, let's see what you guys can come up to. It might be roleable in some non-ninja way.

So, a lot of what you are trying to accomplish doesn't really mesh with Pathfinder once you get into the intricacies of the game. Take magic items for example. Magic items are ESSENTIAL to your character in this game. At a very basic level, "the big six" items are necessary for all those little +1's they add, because the monsters in the bestiary scale based on an assumption you have them for saves, AC, and accuracy.

Sniping is also very impractical in the game, which mostly just comes down to how combat works. The classic sniper trope involves picking the perfect vantage point from a very far distance and dropping an enemy in one shot before they even know you are there. I'm going to try and outline solutions, but some of it really just comes down to GM fiat. I've built snipers in the past, but they were designed to be NPCs in very specific encounters, not PCs on your average adventure.

Problem 1: Martial damage is based around landing multiple iterative attacks in a round to be competitive.
Solution: Use the Vital Strike line, a wand of Gravity Bow, and a Heavy Crossbow. That's 4d8 damage base damage with just the first vital strike feat, plus static modifiers. Add on sneak attack and... you still won't be doing full attack damage, but it will be closer. You can hopefully reach a point where sniping can drop weaker enemies in one shot.
Solution: Use poisons. My understanding is that they aren't cost effective though.

Problem 2: Having to beat an opposed perception check. No matter how much you boost your stealth score, an enemy could potentially outroll you on any given turn.
Solution: Just boost the score as high as you can. Also, distance helps a LOT. Distance penalties to perception are significant so make sure your DM isn't ignoring them.

Problem 3: Action economy. In open combat, any turn you spend trying to get yourself into the ideal position or sneak around the battle field is a round you aren't full attacking, which means the enemies can be doing whatever they want to.
Solution: Hide in Plain Sight may help. Fast Stealth could as well. Anything that can get you into position unseen faster, really.

Problem 4: Lack of party support. This is tied in with the above, but if your party finds itself in open combat, you aren't helping keep them alive if you spend more time sneaking than actually eliminating threats. If you are at proper sniping distance you probably aren't benefiting from the group buff spells being cast, nor are you well positioned to pour a potion down the throat of a downed ally or have one of them pull the Dire Tiger off of you when you get pounced.
Solution: Dunno.

Problem 5: Range. Sneak attack has a crappy range cap, and range increment penalties add up quick.
Solution: Far Shot feat, Sniper archetype, Distance enchantment, sniper goggles. Get all of them and you can snipe at awesomely long ranges.

Problem 6: Magical detection. Possible to try and bypass, but ultimately you there are fighting an uphill battle trying to cover every possible base.
Solutions: Winged boots, etc.

Problem 7: You won't always be able to snipe. At the end of the day, encounters just aren't built to support this. You don't get to choose your battleground every time. I guess if you can figure out a way to get HiPS running alongside a full attack each turn, cool. But I don't think it will be practical.
Solution: Have a back up option for combat. Carry a long bow to switch to, for example.

Problem 8: Resources. Archery builds are feat intensive. Crossbows usually have their own feat taxes. Then you have feats like Far Shot and Vital Strike. And all that just covers your damage output, as opposed to your Stealth. You only have so many Talents and Feats to go around. AND you need some pricey and specialized magic gear to bring it together. All in all, you will need to be very high level before you have the resources to cover all of this.
Solution: Plan very carefully on what you absolutely need to have.

[Da Beast]

Oh my god! Since when does that button exist?!

Also yeah, I do mean the latter one though... full attack instead of just one shot taking an extra -20. In any case, the talent came before the feat... so i'd use the talent if i can. That would give me an edge against anything that cant see me. But even then... I'd still be dealing less damage than a twf rogue, and it would work only if i can stealth to do it, and it would be pointless against creatures immune to precision damage. So it's not so op, its just another thing with the 2 obvious rogue weaknesses.

Should I start by trying to figure out how to get HiPS? Since i think it would be the most important thing i need?

So far I got the following:
-Hellcat Stealth would let me get HiPS in normal and bright light only at -10.
-Improved Eldritch heritage (shadow) would get me the 9th level bloodline power, which is HiPS as long as im near a shadow that i dont project.
-1 Level into shadowdancer at the cost of getting combat reflexes, dodge and mobility, and getting HiPS and evasion. Another level would get me darkvision 60' and uncanny dodge.
-Getting favored terrain talents to use with the HiPS talent that's restricted to favored terrains only.

I'm not familiar with Hellcat Stealth but of the other three Eldritch Heritage seems like the best option. It takes the same number of feats as getting into Shadowdancer without delaying your Slayer level progression and has a built in re-positioning tool which could be useful for a ranged/switch hitter character.

[grarrrg]

I'm not familiar with Hellcat Stealth

Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth)
"You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."

Hide anytime, anywhere, any conditions.

[Florian]

(Needed to redo the whole post because it got too rambling)

Ok, some general thoughts before I go deeper into it. In general, there will be two very distinctive phases. Sniping and regular combat.

Sniping itself builds up on the assassinate advanced trick as well as the Silent Kill and Signature Skill (Stealth) feats and builds upon an endless recuring surprise round. This could be enhanced with the Ability Focus (Assassinate) feat, but further feats are not needed to make this work, regardless of the weapon used. Equipment that ups the DC for both, stealth check and assassinate DC, are pure gold here.
Versimilitude asside, as long as you kill them and make your stealth check (and no one gets bored), actual combat does not start.
In this regard, the Slayer is actually the best class with assassinate, because Studied Target raises the DC here. Please note the DC here is based on Int and Dex/Str is only used for the initial hit against a flat-footed target. Also note that all feasible specific weapons that support this tactic are geared towards melee use.

Once regular combat starts, we're back at the usual parameters, so pure damage is king, a good full attack beats all other options and the best way to prevent damage is simply to kill your target before it damages you.
The Slayer class is an odd duck here, as all class features are geared towards melee combat, especially Sneak Attack, but Studied Target alleviates the need to invest too deeply into the relevant ability scores.
In-combat sniping doesn't cut it at this point anymore, as you drop way too much on the damage potential compared to a regular full attack. No fiddling around with tricks or feats will help here, you will simply suck when you try it.

One of the more interesting options at that point would be multiclassing Unchained Monk with the Slayer, utilizing the Zen Archer archetype and the Sniper archetype to reduce the need for more archery feats, replacing them with Flurry of Blows and gaining access to a Ki Pool to power the Ninja Tricks Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade.

[Molosse]

I) Expert Sniper (Feat), requires 3 ranks in Stealth and reduces the negative modifier to sniping by 10 so it stacks with Stealthy Sniper (Rogue Advanced Talent), which sets the negative modifier to stealth at -10. It also stacks with Unchained Stealth via Rogues Edge so by level 5 you can happily Snipe every round with no negatives.

II) Master Sniper (Feat), requires 6 ranks in Stealth, Expert Sniper and Rapid Shot, let's you fire two shots at full BaB-2 as a full-round action before stealthing again. Since it's a Combat Feat you could always grab Expert Sniper and Rapid Shot from level 1-5, then at level 6 go for the Combat Trick and so, by level 6, you'll be firing a pair of SA Arrows at full BaB-2 for no penalty.

It's not the end to a build but those two feats, combined with Rogues Edge into Stealth, give you a good basis for a Sniping Ranged UnRogue.

To that end, here's a small sample build:

Swashbuckler UnRogue 1-7
1: Point Blank Shot, Martial Training: Longbow, Skill Focus: Stealth
2: RT: Combat Trick (Deadly Aim)
3: Expert Sniper
4: RT: Snipers Eye
5: Rogues Edge (Stealth), Rapid Shot
6: RT: Combat Trick (Master Sniper)
7: Hellcat Stealth

If you wanted to you could drop the UnRogue into a Rogue to take advantage of the Master Sniper Advanced RT at level 10 but you'd lose all the amazing **** UnRogue brings.

Shouldn't be too hard to shift it into a Slayer Build. Only thing I can think of is that you'll still have a penalty until you either grab the Skill Unlock: Stealth at level 5 or the RT: Sneaky Sniper at level 10. But Stalker (Studied Target Bonus to Stealth) can help mitigate that while the Studied Target bonus itself, full BaB as well as Deadly Range let you function without relying on Sniping. Though the downside is that the Slayer has less SA damage to make sniping worthwhile.

Of course the main benefit of making it an UnRogue is you can just grab an Estoc as a back up weapon and enjoy that x1.5 Dex to damage.

[Triskavanski]

Actually a good sniper Archetype would be a Waylayer. This rogue archetype is built to abuse the surprise round.

[Florian]

Actually a good sniper Archetype would be a Waylayer. This rogue archetype is built to abuse the surprise round.

Mind explaining that? I see a rogue with a high initiative and the ability to always act in a surprise round, while upgrading SA from d6 to d8 while doing so.

[Triskavanski]

Well, thats exactly it.


That opening surprise round, you shoot the biggest baddest dood there, Preferably while using sniper goggles and weilding an improved sniper's bow. (+15 to stealth checks when sniping) Possibly even use Underhanded.

Since using Master sniper requires a full round action, you'd have to wait till the next round to use that one, but now you get to make two attacks with your sneak attack bonus.

[Florian]

Well, thats exactly it.


That opening surprise round, you shoot the biggest baddest dood there, Preferably while using sniper goggles and weilding an improved sniper's bow. (+15 to stealth checks when sniping) Possibly even use Underhanded.

Since using Master sniper requires a full round action, you'd have to wait till the next round to use that one, but now you get to make two attacks with your sneak attack bonus.

So you sink a truckload of feats and tricks into something that UMD and a wand of greater invisibility would let you do w/o chance to fail and being dependend on a check. Color me unimpressed.
(again, I'm not saying that magic is the only option, I just point out how a waste it is to replicate some things with purely mundane means)

[Triskavanski]

Except you are basically saying that magic is the only option.

Why be a martial character, sinking in a bunch of feats, traits and the like when magic can do everything a martial character can do? Its not like we run into monsters regularly in the higher levels that have things like true seeing. Or have to battle in the mana wastes, in anti-magic zones, or well.. You know, how like greater invisibility isn't undetectability? At best its just total concealment. But once you start engaging in battle, you take a -20 to your perception DC. And beyond that, a level 2 spell will defeat Greater Invisibility easily enough.

Thats right. See Invisibility isn't just an "Anti-Level 2 Invisible" spell. Its Anti-Invisible Condition spell. And it can be made Permanent. Unlike true seeing, See Invisibility is your entire visual perception. Of course true seeing, is 120 feet as the spell, possibly longer or shorter depending on monsters that get it normally.


So while your rogue may think he's cheated the system, ultimately, Mundane stealth wins out in the long haul.

[Zaetar]

Why is no one mentioning the Master Sniper talent? I know its 3pp...

[Molosse]

Why is no one mentioning the Master Sniper talent? I know its 3pp...

Master Sniper is also a normal advanced rogue talent:

Prerequisites: Advanced Rogue Talents, Stealthy Sniper

Benefit: As a full-round action, a rogue with this talent may double the sniping penalty to her Stealth check to make a full attack and hide afterward, instead of only making a single attack. All her attacks gain the benefits of being hidden, not just the first.
As well as a feat:

Prerequisites: Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.

Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.

Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.

Both of which work well, weirdly enough, in Sniper builds.

[Zaetar]

Master Sniper is also a normal advanced rogue talent:

Prerequisites: Advanced Rogue Talents, Stealthy Sniper

Benefit: As a full-round action, a rogue with this talent may double the sniping penalty to her Stealth check to make a full attack and hide afterward, instead of only making a single attack. All her attacks gain the benefits of being hidden, not just the first.

Exactly, why not use it aswell?

[Molosse]

Exactly, why not use it aswell?

Because in the context of Slayer, they don't gain access to the Master Sniper Talent. They can however gain the feat, which has been mentioned once or twice.

[Zaetar]

Because in the context of Slayer, they don't gain access to the Master Sniper Talent. They can however gain the feat, which has been mentioned once or twice.

Oh you are right, double checked the list... It could be a valid option on an UnRogue though...

[Molosse]

Oh you are right, double checked the list... It could be a valid option on an UnRogue though...

Sadly it's not on the list of talents allowed for UnRogues. However the Master Sniper feat, combined with Debilitating Injury's and other SA modifiers means that the UnRogue can deal with enemies pretty well.

[Zaetar]

Oh I see, you are right again, it's not on the lists... though it could be, maybe the guys from drop dead studios did not update their stuff to be compatible with unrogue and slayer? The unchained classes often mention that unless it's specified there, the things from the original class are compatible with them.

-So a Rogue, could use the Master Sniper talent.
An Unchained Rogue and a Slayer would need the Master Sniper feat and some other combat feats.
-The UnRogue would be more stealthy due to Rogue's Edge.
-The Slayer would be based on Assassinate.

Those are pretty much my only choices in a stealth build for those 3 classes then?
From stealth to combat-oriented it would be: UnRogue, Rogue, Slayer? Wait.. so all in all what I wanted was not a Slayer but either an Unrogue or a Rogue?

And how'd you throw HiPS in there then? Talents, Hellcat Stealth, Eldritch Heritage (shadow) or Shadowdancer?

Note: If i could get my GM to let me get the archetype to change the 1st level shadow bloodline power, I believe it would be more useful. It also matches really really well with the Stygian Slayer archetype.

Note 2: The rogue stalker archetype (also compatible with Unchained Rogue) gives you bonus talents for free at 3,8,13 and 18 levels. Restricted to: terrain mastery, trap training, or advanced trap training... I could grab terrain mastery every time and just grab the HiPS advanced talent. At the cost of only 2 skill points per level, not sure this is a good thing though. Meh, i get 8+int...

That could go along with the Sniper archetype. If later on I get sniper goggles i could just retrain the into Chameleon for a take-10 in stealth checks on favoured terrains that i pick. With stalker this means i could get HiPS on said terrains, and take 10 on some of them.

Guess i answered myself then. Unless i travel all around the world, i could just grab the terrains i know im going to be fighting on and hips talent. It's better than losing a feat.

[Florian]

Yes, the Slayer is heavily geared towards melee combat and favours lower Dex builds. Thats why the whole class is based on entering melee range quick.

As for the (Un)Rogue, consider a 50-50 mix with Gunslinger (Bolt Ace).

[Captain Morgan]

The unchained classes often mention that unless it's specified there, the things from the original class are compatible with them.

No, actually, the Unchained classes often mention you can only use specifically cited content, not the other way around.

Also, if you're going to allow 3rd party content, you should really specify what content to us. 3pp is not the default assumption because it is generally only allowed at a GM's discretion. If you're using ANY content, without needing specific DM approval, then you can probably find all sorts of cool things, but very few of us will be aware of all of it.

One possible 3rd party solution would be implementing Path of War. Either using the Stalker class or their Rogue archetype (Hidden Blade) would get you a whole bunch of helpful abilities. The maneuvers of Veiled Moon will help with Stealth and mobility, and you can use the Solar Wind or Tempest Gale disciplines to accomplish insane feats of archery without having to rely on full attacks, which should gel better with the stealth.

Here's the Hidden Blade. Less eastern flavored in comparison to the Stalker, and the Stealth Gambit let's you essentially use at-will indivisibility whenever you make a successful stealth check.


Hidden Blade

Some rogues specialize in wielding weapons that their enemies will never see, striking from behind veils of shadow and illusion.

Maneuvers (Ex): The Hidden Blade begins play with knowledge of 3 maneuvers from the following disciplines: Mithral Current, Thrashing Dragon and Veiled Moon. The Hidden Blade adds Perform (Dance) to his list of class skills. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by a Hidden Blade is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. His maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown in Table 1-1: Archetype Maneuver Progression. The Hidden Blade must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered Hidden Blade level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Hidden Blade loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. The Hidden Blade need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows. The Hidden Blade can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A Hidden Blade's primary initiator attribute is Intelligence, and each Hidden Blade level is counted as a full initiator level.

Maneuvers Readied (Ex): A Hidden Blade can ready all three of his three starting maneuvers, but as he advances in level and learns more maneuvers, he must choose which maneuvers to ready. He readies his maneuvers by meditating or performing martial katas for 10 minutes. The maneuvers he chooses remain readied until he decides to repeat this again and change them. Hidden Blades do not need to sleep or be well rested to ready their maneuvers; any time he spends 10 minutes in meditation, he can change his readied maneuvers. He begins an encounter with all readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times he may have already used them since he chose them. When the Hidden Blade initiates a maneuver, he expends it for the current encounter, so each of his readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (until they are recovered, see below).

The hidden blade may recover maneuvers in one of two ways. He may perform a gambit action in which he gambles on his performance in battle (see Gambits below) or he may spend a standard action to recover a single maneuver of his choosing.

Stances Known (Ex): Hidden Blades begin play with knowledge of one stance from any of their available disciplines. At the indicated levels (see class table), the Hidden Blade selects an additional new stance. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended and he does not have to ready them. All the stances he knows are available to him at all times, and he can change the stance he is currently using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike with maneuvers, the Hidden Blade cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one he already knows.

This replaces the Rogue Talents gained at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level.

Hidden Specialization (Ex): At 1st level, the hidden blade adds an additional discipline to his list of known disciplines from the following list: Broken Blade, Shattered Mirror, or Tempest Gale. He adds the associated skill of the discipline to his list of class skills if it is not already a class skill, and can learn and ready maneuvers from the discipline as normal.

Hidden Weapons (Ex): The Hidden Blade is adept at storing and retrieving weapons from places that no one would expect to find them. At 1st level, he gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites and can draw hidden weapons as a free action.

Portable Hole Specialist (Ex): Hidden Blades are adept at smuggling and storing objects in extradimensional spaces, and can retrieve items from bags of holding or portable holes as a move action, regardless of how full the bag is.

Gambits (Ex): The rogue is a cunning warrior who seizes opportunities as they present themselves to put his enemies in untenable positions. At 1st level, a rogue selects two gambits as methods by which the rogue can recover expended maneuvers. Each gambit possesses three aspects a risk, a rake, and a reward.
Each gambit's risk describes an action that the rogue must undertake in order to attempt to recover an expended maneuver. The rogue begins a gambit as a swift action, effectively diving recklessly into the act he is attempting. The rogue then performs the action described in the gambit, and if he is successful, he regains maneuvers (see below). If he is not, he suffers the rake of the gambit and only regains a single maneuver of his choosing. While performing a gambit, the rogue may add his Intelligence modifier to the d20 check(s) to aid in accomplishing the gambit as an insight bonus. A rogue may attempt the actions of a gambit as normal, but does not gain any benefits of the gambit unless he spends a swift action to make the action a gambit. The character may initiate a maneuver while performing a gambit (if the maneuver helps him accomplish it) but he may not recover the maneuver used to achieve the gambit as part of the reward.
A gambit's rake is the penalty that the rogue suffers if he attempts his gambit and fails, such as failing a trip attempt or failing to strike an opponent with a charge attack. Each gambit possesses a unique reward that the rogue enjoys for succeeding at that gambit. All gambits possess the same rake; the rogue only regains a single expended maneuver and suffers a -2 penalty on all d20 rolls for one round. A rogue who succeeds at fulfilling his gambit immediately recovers a number of expended maneuvers equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 2) and enjoys the unique reward for each gambit. Allies who would receive benefits from a rogue's successful gambit must be within 60-ft. of the rogue and must be able to see him perform the action. Finally, gambits may not be initiated outside of combat due to their reliance upon the stresses of battle to bring out the best of the rogue.
At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the rogue selects an additional gambit.

The rogue may select any gambit available to Warlords, and may also choose to learn additional gambits unique to them. Any gambit reward that uses the rogue’s charisma modifier as a bonus instead uses the rogue’s initiation modifier.

New Gambits:

Stealth Gambit
Risk: The rogue attempts to hide from an enemy, making a stealth check to do so as normal.
Reward: The rogue becomes invisible, as if subject to the invisibility spell, for a number of rounds equal to his initiation modifier. The caster level for this effect is equal to the rogue’s initiator level.

Flanker’s Gambit
Risk: The rogue successfully attacks an enemy engaged in melee with one of the rogue’s allies.
Reward: The rogue is considered to be flanking the target until the end of their next turn, even if the rogue is not normally in a position to flank the target.

Coward’s Gambit
Risk: The rogue attempts to hit an enemy with a sneak attack.
Reward: The rogue’s allies gain a bonus to damage rolls against the target equal to the rogue’s initiation modifier for 1 round.

[Zaetar]

Problem 1: Martial damage is based around landing multiple iterative attacks in a round to be competitive.
Solution: Use the Vital Strike line, a wand of Gravity Bow, and a Heavy Crossbow. That's 4d8 damage base damage with just the first vital strike feat, plus static modifiers. Add on sneak attack and... you still won't be doing full attack damage, but it will be closer. You can hopefully reach a point where sniping can drop weaker enemies in one shot.
Solution: Use poisons. My understanding is that they aren't cost effective though.
Can I use vital strike with sniping attacks? Doesnt it require an attack action to do so? as in either vital strike OR sniping attack?
I will take notes on gravity bow and using a crossbow, but im not sure i can reload a heavy one and use it to snipe in the same turn. If vital strike applies, does it also apply to the 2 arrows from the Master Sniper feat?



Problem 2: Having to beat an opposed perception check. No matter how much you boost your stealth score, an enemy could potentially outroll you on any given turn.
Solution: Just boost the score as high as you can. Also, distance helps a LOT. Distance penalties to perception are significant so make sure your DM isn't ignoring them.
Yes, sir. Thats the plan.



Problem 3: Action economy. In open combat, any turn you spend trying to get yourself into the ideal position or sneak around the battle field is a round you aren't full attacking, which means the enemies can be doing whatever they want to.
Solution: Hide in Plain Sight may help. Fast Stealth could as well. Anything that can get you into position unseen faster, really.

Problem 4: Lack of party support. This is tied in with the above, but if your party finds itself in open combat, you aren't helping keep them alive if you spend more time sneaking than actually eliminating threats. If you are at proper sniping distance you probably aren't benefiting from the group buff spells being cast, nor are you well positioned to pour a potion down the throat of a downed ally or have one of them pull the Dire Tiger off of you when you get pounced.
Solution: Dunno.

Problem 7: You won't always be able to snipe. At the end of the day, encounters just aren't built to support this. You don't get to choose your battleground every time. I guess if you can figure out a way to get HiPS running alongside a full attack each turn, cool. But I don't think it will be practical.
Solution: Have a back up option for combat. Carry a long bow to switch to, for example.

I'll try to do what I can, and if it is possible for me to hide without hindering my teammates i'll do it. The idea of this is to not depend so much on everything else and do things by myself. Other than that, I could try and depend on my friends a little, let them cause the flat-footed requirement for sneak attacks with trips and whatnot. I'll probably be making an unchained rogue with the stalker archetype for easy terrain mastery and then get the HiPS talent. And yeah i always bear in mind the backup weaponry, not thinking about it might be a big mistake no matter what class you are.



Problem 5: Range. Sneak attack has a crappy range cap, and range increment penalties add up quick.
Solution: Far Shot feat, Sniper archetype, Distance enchantment, sniper goggles. Get all of them and you can snipe at awesomely long ranges.

Problem 6: Magical detection. Possible to try and bypass, but ultimately you there are fighting an uphill battle trying to cover every possible base.
Solutions: Winged boots, etc.

Problem 8: Resources. Archery builds are feat intensive. Crossbows usually have their own feat taxes. Then you have feats like Far Shot and Vital Strike. And all that just covers your damage output, as opposed to your Stealth. You only have so many Talents and Feats to go around. AND you need some pricey and specialized magic gear to bring it together. All in all, you will need to be very high level before you have the resources to cover all of this.
Solution: Plan very carefully on what you absolutely need to have.
Taking notes.


No, actually, the Unchained classes often mention you can only use specifically cited content, not the other way around.

Also, if you're going to allow 3rd party content, you should really specify what content to us. 3pp is not the default assumption because it is generally only allowed at a GM's discretion. If you're using ANY content, without needing specific DM approval, then you can probably find all sorts of cool things, but very few of us will be aware of all of it.

One possible 3rd party solution would be implementing Path of War. Either using the Stalker class or their Rogue archetype (Hidden Blade) would get you a whole bunch of helpful abilities. The maneuvers of Veiled Moon will help with Stealth and mobility, and you can use the Solar Wind or Tempest Gale disciplines to accomplish insane feats of archery without having to rely on full attacks, which should gel better with the stealth.

Apologies for that, I just want to get an idea of everything that may be of use to me. That's why im trying to get to some solid options. I also dont really think there should be any problem with 3pp, using d20pfsrd makes it easy to analize and compare so grabbing things from there shouldn't be a bad thing. Of course, I'd be talking about it with my GM first.

Basically the Hidden Blade is the D&D's crusader version of the rogues. Interesting, I've never been a fan of maneuvers and stances but well, I could give it a try. Edit: Ah, who am i kidding? I lack that part of the brain dedicated to complex martial tactics. Thanks for suggesting it, but I do prefer something more simple. It does sound more interesting than a simple rogue, that's for sure but I'd need to read, study and learn how to properly use it in actual combat... that's more than what I can chew right now, and I dont want to scare my GM with it. I'll keep it bookmarked though for future reference.

[Florian]

@Zaetar:

The whole Heavy Crossbow/Vital Strike tactic is based on not using either, the Master Sniper feat nor the advanced trick. You'll need a heap of feats to make it work, amongst them Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery.
So your routine will be attack (standard), reload (free), hide again (move).

[Zaetar]

@Zaetar:

The whole Heavy Crossbow/Vital Strike tactic is based on not using either, the Master Sniper feat nor the advanced trick. You'll need a heap of feats to make it work, amongst them Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery.
So your routine will be attack (standard), reload (free), hide again (move).

Pretty much the same as sniping but giving away my position and become untargetable after shooting unless the enemy tries to come and get me, and would defeat the point of optimizing stealth. Not sure if that's a better tactic than not hiding at all and making the full attack round, i could sure do that on a crossbow fighter though.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, my vital strike Sniper line isn't meant to full attack. If you can get a third party feat in that let's you just full attack from stealth, that is probably better.

Relying on specific terrains to Hide in Plain Sight will make you a sad panda when you aren't in that terrain, so it's worth asking your DM how much the terrain will change of the course of the game.

Hellcat Stealth might be your best option for almost always being applicable. You just need to over a big hurdle for that penalty. You can always make it brighter with the right equipment, and there might even be stuff out there to let you dazzle enemies while you hide.

And relying on the help of your friends isn't my primary concern, but them being able to rely on you. If your DM is throwing challenging encounters at you, players are going to want to know they can rely on you to end them. All the feats and actions and turns you spend on stealth and hide in plain sight and what not are resources that could be maxing out your DPR, which can stop your allies from getting hurt. It won't necessarily be a problem but it's a danger to be aware of.

[Captain Morgan]

The crossbow sniper, to be more specific, was something I built to have hunt my party as an NPC. In the right environment it can accurately snipe from a thousand feet away, and stealth away before the party can reach him. Then wait for the opportunity to fire again from a safe distance. Chasing down the sniper makes for a memorable encounter, and if the party ignores him they have to live in constant fear.

This doesn't work as well for a PC, because this sort of scenario is not the norm for how you murder things in Pathfinder.

[Zaetar]

Yeah, my vital strike Sniper line isn't meant to full attack. If you can get a third party feat in that let's you just full attack from stealth, that is probably better.

Relying on specific terrains to Hide in Plain Sight will make you a sad panda when you aren't in that terrain, so it's worth asking your DM how much the terrain will change of the course of the game.

Hellcat Stealth might be your best option for almost always being applicable. You just need to over a big hurdle for that penalty. You can always make it brighter with the right equipment, and there might even be stuff out there to let you dazzle enemies while you hide.

And relying on the help of your friends isn't my primary concern, but them being able to rely on you. If your DM is throwing challenging encounters at you, players are going to want to know they can rely on you to end them. All the feats and actions and turns you spend on stealth and hide in plain sight and what not are resources that could be maxing out your DPR, which can stop your allies from getting hurt. It won't necessarily be a problem but it's a danger to be aware of.

Being a rogue using 3pp you could get Master Sniper advanced talent for full attacks instead of one shotwhen sniping by taking double penalties to sniping shots (which without feats to reduce it, meaning -20, it would add another -20 making a horrible -40). But if you are so far then i'd not worry about that. Heck I'm not even sure you need HiPS since you'd be further than the spotting distance.

Also about the terrains, yeah, it would be highly situational. Of course I could ask my GM on what sorts of enviroments the campaign will develope. And if he wants to keep more secrecy about it then i could ask for hints. Other than that if I'm going to travel around many different places then i'd not pick this character we are discussing about and instead would grab a ranger or a fighter.

Edit: Oh, snap... it was camouflage the one that affected ALL the terrains... I'd need HiPS talent for every terrain...

Edit 2: Double snap, this ended up being an unchained rogue and i was thinking about slayer's camouflage. Welp, there goes my guy.

[Florian]

The way this is going, I get the feeling that slowly but surely, packing VMC Rogue on a ranger looks like the safer bet here X_x

[Zaetar]

I shall not give up!

Being far from light sources at night, means concealment, means there is no need for HiPS. I could grab Hellcat Stealth and play at the maximum sneak attack distance given by the rogue sniper archetype feature for distance perception penalizations on the enemy, and the moment i get a pair of sniper goggles i could retrain the archetype into chameleon and play at the weapon or combat map maximum range.

...

Wait...

I did it? Can't be that simple, am I missing something here?

[Triskavanski]

I had one sniper build I used before..

Alchemist - Saboteur vivisectionist

Now Let me tell you about the Saboteur here. This one is the pinical of true undetectable stealth. Granted it wouldn't be for your game, but for making a sniper its pretty there.

Yes, it has access to invisibility and greater invisibility. But as I said, that is defeated easily by a level 2 spell or True Seeing. And in the end just only gives a really big bonus to your stealth mod.

Using the Mutagen version here, you initiall just gain +1/2 your class level to stealth, and a climb speed equal to half your normal speed.

Get Greater at level 12, and you have HIPS in all terrain. Level 16 for Grand, to get your class in stealth bonus and a full climb speed.

Granted it would be harder to start off with until you get to level 12, but you do have a few infusions you could use for that.

If you can get a skill unlock (stealth) you'll be able to get with a tad bit of difficulty acquire a stealth far beyond that of what any normal person could get. I don't think there is any type of perception out there that could completely beat you out before you even make that roll. Even then, they'd have to be pretty dedicated to catch a gnome (Or human with racial heritage ) who can HiPS in any terrain for 20 hours a day at nearly a +60 to stealth.

And you can't use blind sense on him, scent and tremor sense are also useless. If he throws a Greater invisibility on himself (Do not have gnome of annoyance take True Chameleon, as gnome would lose a massive amount of his ability to stealth with this.) There is just no winning against this gnome.

While difficult to play as a player for obvious reasons, I think it would be a good one for a really hard to beat annoying enemy.

[Zaetar]

I had one sniper build I used before..

Alchemist - Saboteur vivisectionist

Now Let me tell you about the Saboteur here.

Sounds like you are preaching it :P

Really interesting. But saboteur + vivisectionist + gnome makes it sound and look somewhat evil. A mad scientist murderer that experiments on people? Being gnome gives it extra villain flavour aswell. It has so much stealth that making an appearance and then flee like your typical anime villain makes it actually doable in pf.

With your premission, Im gonna save this for later ideas of villains, amazing really.

Back on topic... do you think the Black Market connection talents is useful for anything? I'm trying to figure out what talents i should be getting now.

So far I've got:
Camouflage, Fast Stealth, Combat Trick, Weapon Training and Fast Spotter.
Advanced:
Crippling Strike, Double Debilitation, Stealthy Sniper and Feat.

Not in order of levels, just the total of talents i'd be getting and that makes it 9 out of 10 unless you have a better suggestion to replace the ones i picked. Maybe a climb talent? Or leave it empty as "situational"?

[Florian]

Back on topic... do you think the Black Market connection talents is useful for anything?

If your gm actually sticks to the full rules in regard to equipping locations with magic items and you travel around a lot, then it can have a noticeable effect. Still not worth it, tho.

[Zaetar]

Nevermind, 2 free slots for talents. Forgot double debilitation and crippling strike cannot be applied at the same time... i'll go along with double debilitation crippling strike and proceed to make the character again then.

[Triskavanski]

Yeah, a lot of the stuff that depends on a market place is kinda.. ho-hum, at best. Unless GMs do a lot of work for you or something.

Are you Unchained Rogue, Slayer or normal rogue?

[Zaetar]

Race: Human

Class: Unchained Rogue (Yup this is the winner in the end)

Archetypes: Sniper (retrain to Chameleon).

Feats:
1. Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Stealth)
2. Point-Blank Shot
3. Rapid Shot
4. Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5. Expert Sniper
7. Hellcat Stealth
8. Skill Focus (Perception)
9. Master Sniper
11. Deadly Aim
13. Stealthy
14. Dampen Presence
15. Improved Precise Shot
16. Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
17. Hammer the Gap
19. Clustered Shots

Talents:
2. Combat Trick
4. Weapon training
6. Camouflage
8. Fast Stealth
10.Stealthy Sniper
12.Crippling Strike
14.Feat
16.Trap Spotter
18.-situational-
20.-situational-

Other special/magical stuff:
-Sniping weapon ability (upgrade to Greater)
-Ghost-Touch second weapon ability
-Sniping Goggles (upgrade to Greater)
-Wands: Gravity Bow, Darkvision (upgrade to Greater), See Invisibility
-Boots of the Soft Step
-Efficient Quiver
-Cloak of Elvenkind
...

There is plenty of misc magic items for everything o.O the list can go on for a while.

[Florian]

Feats: Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap.

[Zaetar]

Feats: Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap.

I take it the last 2 are for moments when I cant hide?

[Triskavanski]

well, unchained rogue, the magic talents are really nice.

Also if you're gonna take skill focus Stealth, I personally suggest taking it with the alternate racial feature to switch your bonus feat. You get 3 skill focuses instead of 1.

And you might want to get dampen Presence to negate blind sight/sense.

[Zaetar]

There, how does it look?

[Captain Morgan]

Oh, there is one option I forgot to mention... The Oracle of the Waves has a revelation which lets you see through mist and fog. A one level dip into Oracle can let you use Obscuring Mist to gain concealment against many enemies and full attack at will. There's also a Fire mystery revelation that works with smoke. If you want to avoid using magic you could VMC into Oracle and use smoke bombs.

[Florian]

I take it the last 2 are for moments when I cant hide?

They are mainly suggested so that you have a solid option to deal with Damage Reduction.
So far, this build has very little in regards to reliable static damage and you're forced to build your weapon more around functional enhancements to get the ranges SA going, thereby keeping the named plusses low. Hammer the Gap is poor mans WepSpec, but scales well when used towards beating DR this way.

That's also where the suggested Bolt Ace comes in, as that delivers full scaling Dex2Dmg on Crossbows.

[Triskavanski]

Uh.. Did you know Rogues can take Ninja Master tricks?


Page 71—In the Advanced Rogue Talents entry, after the Hide in Plain Sight subentry, add the following advanced rogue talent.
Master Tricks: The rogue can select a ninja trick from the list of master tricks in place of a rogue talent. The rogue cannot select a ninja trick that has the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use tricks that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.

So.. yeah. A rogue can pick up Assassinate. And they can get silent kill.

That is actually pretty interesting I think actually. IS there anyway to get sneak attack with a Archaeologist Bard?

[Florian]

You know that the Ki Pool is the hard part here?
The Ki Pool rogue trick gives non-scaling Wis-mod Ki Points. That'll make you either go MAD or you stuck with such a small pool that you can't really use those ninja tricks. Sure, you can pick ninja tricks that you simply don't use agterwards to fulfill some prereqs, but is pretty much gimping you.

[Zaetar]

Oh, there is one option I forgot to mention... The Oracle of the Waves has a revelation which lets you see through mist and fog. A one level dip into Oracle can let you use Obscuring Mist to gain concealment against many enemies and full attack at will. There's also a Fire mystery revelation that works with smoke. If you want to avoid using magic you could VMC into Oracle and use smoke bombs.

Instead of losing another AB and the level 20 features i'd rather grab a Goz Mask, 8k, does not occupy the same slot as the sniper goggles so i can wear it with them.


Uh.. Did you know Rogues can take Ninja Master tricks?

So.. yeah. A rogue can pick up Assassinate. And they can get silent kill.

That is actually pretty interesting I think actually. IS there anyway to get sneak attack with a Archaeologist Bard?

If its the same assassinate as the slayer then it kind of is a pointless use of a talent. The ki wont escalate unless i take 3 levels into monk, and at 20 i get master strike which is pretty much the same with another 2 also useful abilities.

I did mention that ninja tricks would be somewhat valid, but i also looked into it a bit and the ki pool is a BIG issue here. If i could take levels into something else like ninja, then sure thing it would be amazing. But other than that, it's not the great thing.

In any case, i take it the character is finished then? Started as a Slayer ended up as a Rogue, thank you very much for all the support!

Next in the list is... the ranged fighter... mhm... javelins, bow or crossbow?...

[Florian]

Nope, it the Ninja version of Assassinate, which is quite worse then the Slayer version.

As for the rest with a double-serving of cheese: Halfling Gunslinger (Bolt Ace)/Fighter (Mutation Warrior) with permanent reduce person, dual-wielding hand crossbow for around 1d2+40 dmg each at crit 15-20/x3. Stand and deliver...

[Triskavanski]

You know that the Ki Pool is the hard part here?
The Ki Pool rogue trick gives non-scaling Wis-mod Ki Points. That'll make you either go MAD or you stuck with such a small pool that you can't really use those ninja tricks. Sure, you can pick ninja tricks that you simply don't use agterwards to fulfill some prereqs, but is pretty much gimping you.

Color me confused here.

At what point do you have to take anything that uses ki to get Assassinate? Or how is it different from Slayer's Assassinate? (Other than one uses Cha, the other uses Int)

[Florian]

Color me confused here.

At what point do you have to take anything that uses ki to get Assassinate? Or how is it different from Slayer's Assassinate? (Other than one uses Cha, the other uses Int)

A case of missremembering. Nearly all ninja advanced tricks have a regular trick as prereq that works on ki.

Still, worst version of assassinate due being based on Cha.

[Triskavanski]

I could see that, if you weren't using anything that really used cha.

Though I'd totally use it with the Waylayer, and underhanded. Give two chances to kill the target instead of just one, since silent kill doesn't need you to succeed on the assassinate. Just kill the target somehow in that first attack.

Edit:

A few other things, If you wanted to Goz mask, and wanted to use a crossbow as your weapon (Or at least a weapon)

Assassin's Sight (and its greater version) allow you to make sneak attacks up to 60 (90) feet away, giving you another way to deliver death.

[Zaetar]

I could see that, if you weren't using anything that really used cha.

Though I'd totally use it with the Waylayer, and underhanded. Give two chances to kill the target instead of just one, since silent kill doesn't need you to succeed on the assassinate. Just kill the target somehow in that first attack.

Edit:

A few other things, If you wanted to Goz mask, and wanted to use a crossbow as your weapon (Or at least a weapon)

Assassin's Sight (and its greater version) allow you to make sneak attacks up to 60 (90) feet away, giving you another way to deliver death.

But sniper goggles make sneak attack get unlimited range. Can be used with Goz Mask. What'd you need for the cheesy dual assassinate? i still got 2 unused talents there.

Meanwhile... *thinks about javelins and crossbows*

[Triskavanski]

It can be used with the mask? I thought both of them of them took up the eye slot?

Well if they can be used together, then thats good. If there is ever a reason for you to wear eye items then you know one thing that could provide a backup sniper goggles.


As for the Assassination ability, you just got to get to level 10 rogue and use an advance talent for it.
Underhanded lets you attack with a weapon your enemy didn't know you had during the surprise round and deal maximum sneak attack damage cha times per day.

Tube Arrow Shooter could be one of the better weapons for this, though it has a very small attack range for a ranged weapon.


Also there is little reason to have

Stealthy sniper, Skill Unlock(Stealth) and Expert Sniper


Well, maybe. Depending on the order of operations I guess for using Master Sniper feat.

IF Master sniper makes the -20 to stealth a -40 to start with, and then Skill unlock stealth makes it a -30, expert sniper makes it a -20, stealthy sniper makes it a -10, and then skill unlock haves it again to -5

But if its Skill unlock makes it -10, and expert sniper makes it 0 and then Master Sniper doubles it to 0.. then Stealthy sniper doesn't have any use.

[Florian]

Btw, stuff like the Goz Mask showcase why 3pp stuff has a bad rep.
It has to do with vision, it should be on the eye slot, nowhere else. Compare Fogcutting lenses and have a laugh imagining a wearer of a Goz Mask running into a Solid Fog or Deadly Fog he can't even see ;)

[Triskavanski]

What do you mean Goz mask showcase why 3pp stuff has a bad rap?

[Zaetar]

It can be used with the mask? I thought both of them of them took up the eye slot?

Well if they can be used together, then thats good. If there is ever a reason for you to wear eye items then you know one thing that could provide a backup sniper goggles.


As for the Assassination ability, you just got to get to level 10 rogue and use an advance talent for it.
Underhanded lets you attack with a weapon your enemy didn't know you had during the surprise round and deal maximum sneak attack damage cha times per day.

Tube Arrow Shooter could be one of the better weapons for this, though it has a very small attack range for a ranged weapon.


Also there is little reason to have

Stealthy sniper, Skill Unlock(Stealth) and Expert Sniper


Well, maybe. Depending on the order of operations I guess for using Master Sniper feat.

IF Master sniper makes the -20 to stealth a -40 to start with, and then Skill unlock stealth makes it a -30, expert sniper makes it a -20, stealthy sniper makes it a -10, and then skill unlock haves it again to -5

But if its Skill unlock makes it -10, and expert sniper makes it 0 and then Master Sniper doubles it to 0.. then Stealthy sniper doesn't have any use.

Must have missed the talent then. Will doublecheck later.

The answer is easy: I can retrain Stealthy Sniper when that happens.

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask

Doesnt say it doesnt work on magical fog, it says "and other obscuring vapours". Even though I will agree that it is kind of op, I have seen it as solution to many problems in other forums. So its not unpopular or unknown.

It can also be solved with a wand with the echolocation spell.

Meanwhile... *I think i might just go for javelins, the peltast archetype sounds good... but how do i carry so many?...*

[Anlashok]

Btw, stuff like the Goz Mask showcase why 3pp stuff has a bad rep.
It has to do with vision, it should be on the eye slot, nowhere else. Compare Fogcutting lenses and have a laugh imagining a wearer of a Goz Mask running into a Solid Fog or Deadly Fog he can't even see ;)

An item published by Paizo for their own game reflects badly on third party material? I'm not sure how we get to that, but sure, why not.

[Captain Morgan]

For thrown weapons, you either want that a Shield Champion Brawler, a Blink Back Belt, or that new Weapon Master's handbook Ricochet style thing.

[Zaetar]

For thrown weapons, you either want that a Shield Champion Brawler, a Blink Back Belt, or that new Weapon Master's handbook Ricochet style thing.

Shield Champion Brawler is literally Captain America. I was thinking about javelins... they are the best looking weapons fro throwing.

Is that belt the Gloves of endless javelins version for pathfinder? I could get one, though I'm not sure how you could strap a javelin to your belt. I could also keep some in a separated quiver with Anchoring and Ghost-Touch.

[squiggit]

Is that belt the Gloves of endless javelins version for pathfinder? I could get one, though I'm not sure how you could strap a javelin to your belt. I could also keep some in a separated quiver with Anchoring and Ghost-Touch.

The belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back) holds two one handed or four light melee weapons. Weapons you draw from the belt and then throw teleport back to the belt immediately after the attack finishes. So you only need one or two weapons to have a full attack routine with throwing weapons.

Doesn't work with Javelins though because they aren't considered melee weapons.

[Zaetar]

Ah you are right... well, maybe I can simply use the Glove of Endless Javelins straight from the MIC?

Edit: Nvm, an efficient quiver should allow me to carry a good number of javelins. As for the enchantments... I either negotiate with my GM a way to enchant them all at low cost or not play the javelin thrower at all. It's dumb the fact that throwable weapon need to be enchanted one by one. Why hasn't this been modified yet?

Edit 2: Yet again i'll be shutting myself up. One cant even make a full-attack with javelins, only 2 if you have one on each hand. The returning ability takes a round to go back to the owner and even if you do manage to throw more than 2 javelins with returning then you'll only be able to grab 2 all the others will fall to the ground. This is so lame...

The crossbowmen fighter archetype is weird... half of its abilities only affect readied actions :/

Why is the fighter so lame when using ranged weapons?

Edit 3: To hell with it, next PC will be a grenade throwing alchemist.

[Captain Morgan]

Again, for thrown weapons you should look at the Blink back belt that squiggit linked to. Or pick up Weapon Master's Handbook which has numerous ranged support options, but isn't on the d20 site yet.

[Zaetar]

Again, for thrown weapons you should look at the Blink back belt that squiggit linked to. Or pick up Weapon Master's Handbook which has numerous ranged support options, but isn't on the d20 site yet.

Yeah but I wanted javelins for flavour. And the points I mentioned later are still valid so it's not worth really... Will check the handbook anyway.

Also... is there any way to play a non-turn-into-hulk-with-mutagens alchemist? I just want to throw grenades...

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah but I wanted javelins for flavour. And the points I mentioned later are still valid so it's not worth really... Will check the handbook anyway.

Also... is there any way to play a non-turn-into-hulk-with-mutagens alchemist? I just want to throw grenades...

I don't see why the Javelin wouldn't work with the blink back belt. Unless it's just considered too big?

As for Alchemists, the Mad Bomber is a tried and true build to play. The Grenadier and Mindchemist Archetypes are popular choices. The biggest weakness is you can run out of bombs quickly, but when a Mad Bomber novas they ruin ****. Stink bombs are especially nasty. There are at least 3 different optimization guides out there on how to do it.

[squiggit]

I don't see why the Javelin wouldn't work with the blink back belt. Unless it's just considered too big?

You can only attach melee weapons to blinkback belts and javelin (and a few other throwing weapons) are considered ranged weapons.

[Zaetar]

I don't see why the Javelin wouldn't work with the blink back belt. Unless it's just considered too big?

As for Alchemists, the Mad Bomber is a tried and true build to play. The Grenadier and Mindchemist Archetypes are popular choices. The biggest weakness is you can run out of bombs quickly, but when a Mad Bomber novas they ruin ****. Stink bombs are especially nasty. There are at least 3 different optimization guides out there on how to do it.

The belt is restricted only to melee weapons, the javelin is not one.

On a side note, i've just checked the alchemist archetipes and a guide with different bombs and i must say... this thing is broken. There is so much cheese there I could make a cheetos factory with it.

So... was there any other class good at ranged attacks than ranger, rogue and slayer?

[Captain Morgan]

The belt is restricted only to melee weapons, the javelin is not one.

On a side note, i've just checked the alchemist archetipes and a guide with different bombs and i must say... this thing is broken. There is so much cheese there I could make a cheetos factory with it.

So... was there any other class good at ranged attacks than ranger, rogue and slayer?

Sure. Fighters, Paladins, Inquisitors, Zen Archer Monks. Gunsinger can be good for 5 levels. Though most of those are archery based. Thrown weapons you have to work much harder at.

[Zaetar]

Sure. Fighters, Paladins, Inquisitors, Zen Archer Monks. Gunsinger can be good for 5 levels. Though most of those are archery based. Thrown weapons you have to work much harder at.

Guess I'm gonna check out the Bolt Ace archetype. It's supposed to take away anything related to guns and gundpower from the gunslinger, am i rite?

[Florian]

Guess I'm gonna check out the Bolt Ace archetype. It's supposed to take away anything related to guns and gundpower from the gunslinger, am i rite?

Right. And adds full Dex to damage w/o the restrictions a Comp. Longbow has.

[Zaetar]

I've got a problem with the reloading thing on crossbows.

Here's an idea:
+1 - Quick-loading: Dimensional pocket with 100 bolts, move action to reload.
+1 - Self-loading: Reduces move action to free action.

You'd be able to shoot any crossbow that doesnt depend on a magazine without needing to reload it yourself. Quick-Loading would make the bolt pop into existance on the crossbow, and Self-Reloading would make it pull the string back by itself.

That would let you full-attack with any crossbow and never think about reloading it ever again in your life.

Thoughts?

[squiggit]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crossbow-mastery-combat) does a good job dealing with crossbow loading, at least when you can afford the feats for it.

[Zaetar]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crossbow-mastery-combat) does a good job dealing with crossbow loading, at least when you can afford the feats for it.

Still won't do for dual hand crossbows :P

[squiggit]

Still won't do for dual hand crossbows :P

You can argue it if you're a race with a prehensile tail or have prehensile hair/vestigal arm/etc.

A 2 level juggler dip would make it work too.

Glove of Storing can help, but then you're running into the issue of "what action is it to switch a weapon from one hand to the other" because for some reason storing only works on one hand.


Otherwise, yeah, TWF with ranged weapons is really awkward if those weapons aren't firearms or throwing weapons (or a firearm and a throwing weapon). Sword/pistol. Sword/crossbow and crossbow/crossbow all have issues.

Ask your GM if you can adapt gun twirling for hand crossbows I guess. Or if you can use Dreamscarred Press third party for Mixed Combat (which lets you sheathe anything as a free action).

[Triskavanski]

You are proficient with repeating hand crossbows.

[Zaetar]

I think all of that is a bit more complex than simply enchancing them... It would balance out with the cost itself and the fact that im basically twfing. And that im not using any other enhancement like Holy or Seeking.

Also yeah, but repeating crossbows have a really annoying reload time that wont be affected by Rapid Reload i believe.

[Zaetar]

On a bumpy note i've just discovered a little cute and cheese wondrous item: Snapleaf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/snapleaf)

And it gives you as immediate action, featherfall and invisibility. It does not consume on use and has no limit of uses per day. It costs 750 gp, or 375 to make it with no other requirement than Craft Wondrous Item, featherfall and invisibility. There must be errata on this somewhere...