Wild Shape - Keeping the same form but more powerful as you level up?

[NiklasWB]

Hi, I've been playing around with an idea for a Circle of the Moon Druid. I really like the idea of wild shape and I'm a big fan of shapeshifting into animals in fantasy in general. However, something that I am not very fond of in D&D is that you have to pick new shapes in order to stay relevant. For example, it seems the Mammoth is the capstone form at max level. However, only with a few select character concepts would I feel that it was lore and roleplaying appropriate to chose a Mammoth form.

Yes, I know that the DM will decide what animals you as the player comes into contact with, but really, some character's just don't lend themselves as well to shapeshift into a Giant Crocodile or what have you as others.

So my question is this:

Would you guys rule that a Circle of the Moon Druid could keep one or two specific wild shape forms and make them viable as the druid levels up. And if so, how would you do it? can you just fluff other animals into the creature you want? This would be a bit odd since some animal attacks are rather specific to the form you take.

I'll give you an example of my problem. I was thinking about creating a Maztica (Forgotten Realms, not sure if it's once more a part of the Canon 5e) based druid that can wild shape into a jaguar. Would it be ok to simply make the Challenge rating and the stats/attacks of the jaguar higher/better as he levels up? If so, how would one keep this balanced? Up until a certain point I guess you could use the stats of other big cats, right? Tiger/Lion, Sabertooth tiger etc. At some point however, you kind of run out of animals other than wierd ones such as Giant Scorpion. Then what?

Having to pick odd and non-fitting animals as I level up would kind of be a dealbreaker for me, so I'm exploring any options that you guys would be possible and still keep the druid viable compared to the RAW version.

[Rajah]

You could always just refluff the beasts as felines. A mammoth could be a dire lion or something, just a huge cat.

[Zman]

I'd be fine with it, say they prefer to Wildshape into a Bear almost exclusively. I'd work with them to make some new bear forms of different CRs.

The DMG, pg 274 gives us a nifty chart for cheating custom monsters etc of differering CRs. Now, Beasts seem to follow a pattern, generally the have lower defensive abilities or lower Hp and usually lower AC, but have a higher Attack Bonus and are usually capable of out damaging the damage recommendation, or do lower but have a save attack, and often a save attack that grants Ana edition all attack. Don't forget special rules as well.

If I were doing a Bear, I would study the bear forms in relation to the DMG CR chart and extrapolate for C3,4,5, and 6. I would also compare them to the other forms in that Car range, the custom ones should never be clearly better.

If a base form was chosen, I don't think it would be too bad to whip up different Car versions of that form, with ultimate DM approval of course.

[Hudsonian]

Dire Kitten:
Dire Kittens are rarely seen by humanoids as they are typically guarded by their mothers. They typically gather in groups and can be seen batting around large rocks, or playing with the hawks or giant rats that they have recently caught. Roughly the size of a Mastiff, these kittens still have not grown into their features with over sized ears, eyes, and paws. Most people would never suspect such cute creatures to have such deadly power.

+3 Str, +2 Dex, -1 INT, -1 WIS, +4 CHA

Puss In Boots: As a Bonus action, the Dire Kitten may stare mournfully into the eyes of a up to 3 creatures. The creatures must succeed a DC15 WIS saving throw or be Charmed for 10 Minutes or until harmed by the Dire Kitten. For some inexplicable reason, this affect can be suffered up to 3 times each day by the same target.

Multi-attack: The Dire Kitten makes three attacks with it's claws:
+7 to hit
Claw: 1d8 +3 S

Bite: 1d12 + 3 P


NOTE: I have not actually done any math or balancing... Just thought it sounded fun. I'll leave the Dire Cat/Lion/Tiger to someone else.

[MrStabby]

This is one of my big problems with 5th. I really wish there were better options for keeping animal forms. The thing that I wanted was to be a druid worshiping Lolth taking on progressively more powerful spider forms.

I have been looking at the issue myself and I was thinking of ways to scale.

I would suggest pick a hit die for the creature - a spider might be d8, a bear d12, a boar d10 and with each level of druid the form gains a hit die.

Proficiency gets added to attack and dc for saves from the animal form.

Each ASI adds a stat to both druid form and to animal form as well.

There are other things that are trickier - multi attack/additional attacks don't obviously, naturally scale. Possibly adding a feat to give multi attack available at level 5 or so.

[Zman]

This is one of my big problems with 5th. I really wish there were better options for keeping animal forms. The thing that I wanted was to be a druid worshiping Lolth taking on progressively more powerful spider forms.

I have been looking at the issue myself and I was thinking of ways to scale.

I would suggest pick a hit die for the creature - a spider might be d8, a bear d12, a boar d10 and with each level of druid the form gains a hit die.

Proficiency gets added to attack and dc for saves from the animal form.

Each ASI adds a stat to both druid form and to animal form as well.

There are other things that are trickier - multi attack/additional attacks don't obviously, naturally scale. Possibly adding a feat to give multi attack available at level 5 or so.

I think you can take the available spide forms as bases ans using how they differ from the DMG pg274 as reference and you should be able with a bit of work to create a viable thematic creature of each appropriate CR.

[Vogonjeltz]

has anyone tried to do a bladesinger/druid multi class build?

any reason you couldn't use bladesong in wildshape?

I believe so, yes.

Wild shape changes your species to whatever Beast you turn into, which means they won't be an Elf anymore, which is a requirement for Bladesinger.

So the features that are dependent on being an Elf (i.e. Bladesinger class features) won't work anymore. You could always just have the DM handwave that.

[Tanarii]

The DMG, pg 274 gives us a nifty chart for cheating custom monsters etc of differering CRs. Now, Beasts seem to follow a pattern, generally the have lower defensive abilities or lower Hp and usually lower AC, but have a higher Attack Bonus and are usually capable of out damaging the damage recommendation, or do lower but have a save attack, and often a save attack that grants Ana edition all attack. Don't forget special rules as well.
That's the solution if you want a series of specific animal types. Not only that, you can use the Tiger --> Sabertooth Tiger scaling, or Black Bear --> Brown Bear, as a pattern on how to make the creature tougher.

But it basically boils down to: increase HD by 2, Increase Str by 2, possibly scale up base damage die, and adjust hit/damage for Str & new prof bonus (if appropriate). Then take the CR difference between the old HP/AC/Hit/Damage and new on the DMG chart (avg offense/defense), and add that. It's approximate, but it saves having to back-calculate how they determined the CR based on the special attacks. If it doesn't add a CR you just increase the HD or Str or damage die some more. Or maybe add 2 points of Natural Armor.

[Falcon X]

I like this question, and is especially necessary for people who think along the "Spirit Animal" route like a totem barbarian gets.

First off: Absolutely allow it to be one or two animals that power up as you do. It's an easy refluff saying that you are learning how to better connect with the beastial side of your animal. The exact strengths and weaknesses, however, might be a bit rough. The easiest thing is to just modify existing creatures at the appropriate challenge rating.

You could take the concept that this homebrew did for 3.5, mod it to 5e and apply it to Wild Shape: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129283-(3-5)-New-Class-The-Caller
the concept is applying templates to your wild shapes. For example, if your chosen animal is Bear, you can apply the "Winged" template at level 6, half-fey template at level 12, Monster of Legend at level 15 or 20.