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Talanic
2007-06-10, 02:11 PM
First, a disclaimer. I'm working on this specifically due to an upcoming game I'm running. The party won't be playing by these rules, but a brief portion of the game will include a "land-of-the-lost" kind of place.

From you guys, I need some help. How would you adjust the CR of enemies who use these rules, against normal characters who use regular rules and fine equipment?

Primitive Spells:
At the dawn of magic, those first precursors to today's sorcerers and wizards often had to work with substandard materials, no training, and essentially blind guessing at the nature of magic. Today's spells are greatly refined compared to what they once were...

Primitive spells are treated as one caster level lower for all purposes where it is a disadvantage to the caster. Spells which deal damage or ability damage deal a less powerful die; damage that is not based on a die roll is halved (round down).

Conversely, the spells look more impressive. Primitive Fireball looks like an outpouring of the hells; it wastes most of its energy in that ineffective flashiness. Unfortunately for the primitive caster, this does not really do much in a real fight...

Spells which have a complicated effect (flight, blur, mirror image, magic mouth) are considered one spell level higher. For example, Fly is a 4th level primitive spell, but a third level normal spell. Generally, spells with a costly material component are completely impossible to primitive casters.

Spellcraft checks by a non-primitive caster to identify primitive spells are harder; add +2 to their DC.

Example: Primitive Magic Missile. Below is the text of the spell from d20srd.org, alterations in red.

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d3 points of force damage.

For every two caster levels beyond 2nd, you gain an additional missile—two at 4th level, three at 6th, four at 8th, and the maximum of five missiles at 10th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

Primitive weapon materials (you can not make armor from these):

Flint weapons are formed by chipping flint stone into sharp edges. It takes years of practice to master the craft. Flint weapons can not be enchanted without a modern, non-primitive spellcaster and a full, custom set of stoneworking tools (a jeweler's store would suffice), as it is impossible to work flint in ways other than flaking without sophisticated tools.

Flint can be made into any kind of weapon that is composed primarily of metal. It is brittle, and easily smashed; Flint's hardness is five, reduced to two by bludgeoning weapons, and it posesses fifteen hit points per inch of thickness.

Masterwork flint weapons provide +1 to damage instead of +1 to hit.

Obsidian weapons are formed by carefully flaking volcanic glass. Obsidian is harder than flint and forms an edge unsurpassed by any other material. Enchanted edged obsidian weapons ignore two points of their target's hardness or damage reduction (only DR/-, DR/piercing or DR/bludgeoning are affected) per +1 enchantment. Like flint, Obsidian weapons can not be enchanted without a modern, non-primitive spellcaster and a full, custom set of stoneworking tools (a jeweler's store would suffice), as it is impossible to work obsidian in ways other than flaking without sophisticated tools.

Obsidian's hardness is eight (four against bludgeoning), and it posesses twenty-five hit points per inch of thickness.

Masterwork obsidian weapons have their critical threat range expanded by 1. This stacks with Keen only partly; the +1 critical range from Obsidian is not doubled by Keen. A Keen Obsidian Longsword would have a threat range of 15-20.. Weapons made from Obsidian cost an extra 1,500 gold.

Rama_Lei
2007-06-10, 02:44 PM
Drop the CR from spellcasting classes by 1.

jindra34
2007-06-10, 02:55 PM
In all honesty obsidian weapons are going to be too cost efficent...

Talanic
2007-06-10, 04:10 PM
I suspect my players won't take advantage of it; the druid might inquire enough to figure out that obsidian's good (she's already trying to go for stone tools for herself, taking the whole no-metal roleplay further).

jindra34
2007-06-10, 04:15 PM
I suspect my players won't take advantage of it; the druid might inquire enough to figure out that obsidian's good (she's already trying to go for stone tools for herself, taking the whole no-metal roleplay further).

Its a simple rule of math: Keen is a +3 enchancement. on a weapon it requires a minimum of +4 enchanment. Which costs at least 10 times the price of an obsidian blade. In addition it does not take up enhancement bonus pluses so they can put even more enchanments on it. Any player worth their weight in **** should be able to figure that out.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-06-10, 04:24 PM
Its a simple rule of math: Keen is a +3 enchancement. on a weapon it requires a minimum of +4 enchanment. Which costs at least 10 times the price of an obsidian blade. In addition it does not take up enhancement bonus pluses so they can put even more enchanments on it. Any player worth their weight in **** should be able to figure that out.

Keen is a +1 equivalent enhancement; a +1 Keen weapon costs 8,000 GP.

I might suggest, instead, giving a +5 bonus to confirm critical hits (not stacking with MW), instead of an auto-keen. Alternately, improve critical threat range by 1, and only let weapons with a 19-20 or better be made from Obsidian. You can then make Keen be a +1/2 enhancement, or, for simpler math, calculate the cost as though the weapon was not keen, and add half of the difference between that and the next one up (a +1 Keen would cost 5,000; a +2 keen would cost 13,000, and so on)

Also, I'd tell the players what these do (or at least some idea of them) up front, rather than waiting for them to guess your materials.

Finally, I'd limit what could be made from each. Nobody made flint swords, and I haven't heard of obsidian axes (the Aztecs had something not entirely unlike an obsidian sword, though). Also, pretty much any rock can be used for a stone mace, but it's less dense than worked metals.

Poppatomus
2007-06-10, 04:27 PM
I think the egytians had something akin to obsidian swords as well.

Talanic
2007-06-10, 09:54 PM
Good points. Keen removed, +1 to critical threat range added. I also limited how it interacts with Keen.

mabriss lethe
2007-06-12, 01:44 PM
(the Aztecs had something not entirely unlike an obsidian sword, though).

I forget the name of the things, but yeah, they were something along the lines of a wooden paddle edged with sharp bits of stone down the "blade" edge of the paddle. Unfortunately, all the evidence that points to these weapons actually existing, is anecdotal. It comes from eyewitness accounts from the Conquistadors and missionaries along with interpretations of native artwork. As far as I've looked (and I've looked) no one has actually found physical evidence for these blades. Aside from that, I'm all for them existing in a primitive setting, for flavor if nothing else...Cuz they rock.

Several cultures in the area also crafted some pretty impressive blades made of carved and lacquered wood. These are evidenced and several examples are known to still exist. (lacquer being a darned good preservative, and can be sharpened without damaging the wooden blade beneath, then reapplied when it wears down too low.) -note that this isn't lacquer as was used in Asia. That tree didn't exist in South America. It's most commonly a mixture of oils and powdered minerals.

Tracersmith
2007-06-12, 03:57 PM
i also recomend that the obsidian weapons break on anything less then a 5 (a super-fumble range). from what i understand obsidian isnt a very durable material to make weapons (even if it hits it could break off inside of people)

Talanic
2007-06-12, 05:59 PM
A 25% chance to break on every swing? That would make the material completely worthless; a full week required to make a sword that will break in under a minute's use. You'd be better off with a stick. The material's natural brittleness is supposed to be represented by the lower hardness level and the way I have blunt weapons bypassing half of the hardness.

How about non-masterwork obsidian weapons have to make a fortitude save (dc 15) on a natural 1, or take damage as if struck by a warhammer?

As for the ancient obsidian blade, it was wooden, shaped kind of like a paddle and edged with obsidian. Lots of illustrations exist...but nope, no actual copies were found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl

Tracersmith
2007-06-12, 06:09 PM
you are right of course

Matthew
2007-06-15, 09:21 PM
Hard work dealing with the effects of Flint and Obsidian weapons, that's for sure. I'm not clear on the problems with Spell Casting, surely just keeping certain Spells (perhaps even Spell Levels) from the Savages would be easier than messing on with the nitty gritty aspects of the Spell descriptions themselves (other than the fluff aspects).