Practical Optimisation: Help me sort out this War-Weaver

[unbutu]

Build Attempt


Level
Gestalt 1
Gestalt 2



Wizard until War Weaver
Factotum 8



War Weaver 5
Something for pre-reqs 1/ Ur-Priest 1



Spellguard of Silverymoon 4
What Now ?



Mystic Theurge X















































































Goals/Hopes
-Get 5 levels of war-weaver. I'd like them early. We start at lvl 3 and it's what I want to use the most.
-Have 4 levels of spellguard for personnal spells into the weave
-Have a full arcane spellcasting progression (Can sublime cord be used to make it faster ? )
-Have a lot of divine spells. (Is there space for Ur-Priest or Rainbow Servant ? )
-If there's space in all of this, then increase HD, Skill points and saves by picking classes for Stats on 1 side of the Gestalt.



Restrictions
It's a gestalt game where you can PrC on both sides. 3.5, homebrew, Pathfinder, 3.0: Pretty much anything anywhere is open, as long as it's not infinite cheese stuff. IE: Practical optimisation with very loose rules.

//Mixed toughts
-I don't understand how Chameleon is in a lot of builds, can it be used here ?
-One template with LA adjustment authorised. You may use that if usefull. Found out White Dragonspawn wich has nice features, 1 sorcerer caster level for 1 LA
-Race is open. Edit: Thinking about a 0 LA race. Tough, google told me Greensnake Naga (OA) is great since we can buyoff the +1 LA. I'm just trying to have good stats to pump both Wisdom and Int.
-Seems like spell progression would be maxed out already. So at this point, if I want incantatrix metamagic, I have to do it on the Gestalt 2, or drop Mystic Theurge ?
Edit:-We are homebrewing Ur-priest to be non-evil.

Gestalt 2 (Right side)

Dips contenters: Lvl : Why
Factotum: 2: INT to physical skills 8:Extra standard action sometimes
Monk 1: WIS to AC, or just buy a monk's belt ?
Paladin 2: With Serenity feat (DM) : WIS to Saves

[Dread_Head]

Put your Ur Priest levels on Side 2? What you'd get from Barb and Monk probably isn't as good as what you get from Factotum into Ur Priest so probably skip them. You could go Factotum 9 (or if using Fractional saves then Factotum 8 / anything 1) into Ur Priest and then go for some good Divine PrC's. Then you can go Wizard 5 / War Weaver 5 / Spellguard 4 / Incantatrix (at least 3) on the other side. Gets Factotums extra actions, all the buffy goodness (Eldritch Tapestry, personal spells on others and persisting them) and Ur-Priest casting + whatever Divine PrC abilities you choose to grab.

Note that Ur Priest and Spellguard have contrasting Alignment prereqs so you might not be able to take both.

I'd probably not bother with a LA race myself, unless you get it for free that is. Even with buy off it isn't worth delaying your casting abilities.

[Xethik]

OP mentioned non-evil Ur-Priest, so alignment should be fine.

Regarding Chameleon, I think Chameleon works best in non-gestalt or in gestalt as the side option for non-casters. Doing Chameleon on one half and Spellguard of Silverymoon and War Weaver on the other is actually quite interesting. But I think you would be completely fine just doing Theurge Wizard/Ur-Priest with Spellguard and War Weaver actually increasing relevant casting abilities.

[Dread_Head]

Gestalt 2 (Right side)

Dips contenters: Lvl : Why
Factotum: 2: INT to physical skills 8:Extra standard action sometimes
Monk 1: WIS to AC, or just buy a monk's belt ?
Paladin 2: With Serenity feat (DM) : WIS to Saves

Go all the way to 8 for factotum, the extra action is worth so much in gestalt. And the sooner the better really, you probably shouldn't delay it by taking any dips before you hit Factotum 8. Afterwards the classes you are suggesting don't add much that can't be replicated by spells or items.

For monk, just wait and buy a monks belt. With all your spells you should be fine for AC really. Mage Armour, (Greater) Luminous Armour, Shield, Shield of Faith, Protection from X, Reduce Person, Alter Self, Mirror Image, etc. You have lots of defensive options, you don't need a level of monk.

For similar reasons don't bother with Paladin, you don't need to waste two levels and a feat on boosting your saves. You have spell like Greater (then Superior) Resistance, Tyche's Touch, Nightshield, Protection from X etc. Lots of things boost your saves for a lesser investment.

Most of the listed spells will affect your entire party as well.


OP mentioned non-evil Ur-Priest, so alignment should be fine.

That was edited in to the OP after I made my post.

[Xethik]

That was edited in to the OP after I made my post.

Fair point. Apologies if I came off as snarky.
Agreed with the Factotum 8 comment. Even if you aren't taking Font of Inspiration every feat, it is a super useful ability.

If your DM allows it, I believe there is a Dragonlance Feat that will let you go Int SAD, even with Divine casting. Academic Priest is the name iirc. I think that trumps any Wis to AC or Saves, personally. Even if you can't get this feat, you'll really want to focus on Factotum 8 and then Ur-Priest levels.

[unbutu]

I'm sorry for not writting where I edited and confusing your guys. Was bad etiquette from me.

----
Point taken: Rush Factotum 8 , If initiative can win the encounter, then one more standard in the first round can destroy the encounter.

So right side would be Factotum 8/Ur-priest 1/Then back to factotum?

I don't understand why we would continue ? Those levels of factotum after the ur-priest is taken seem not to pay off much, do they ? Is it because I would want Cunning Breach, Cunning Dodge ? I guess they pretty much do what I'm trying to do with those dips: Round out the survivability. I'm just so addicted to statttttttssssss. I'm the kind of guy who would Gestalt Pathfinder Paladin//Oracle just to have CHA to everything.

---

[AvatarVecna]

ECL
Side A
Lvl
Side B
Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features


1
Wizard
1
Rogue
1
0 (3/4)
0 (1/3)
2 (5/2)
2 (5/2)
Wizard Casting 1, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6


2
Wizard
2
Cloistered Cleric
1
1 (5/4)
2 (16/6)
2 (17/6)
5 (10/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Cleric Casting 1, Knowledge Devotion


3
Wizard
3
LA +1 Template (Vecna-Blooded?)
1
1 (7/4)
3 (18/6)
3 (19/6)
5 (11/2)
Wizard Casting +1, LA +1 template


4
Wizard
4
Monk
1
2 (10/4)
5 (33/6)
5 (34/6)
8 (16/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus


5
Wizard
5
Monk
2
3 (13/4)
6 (36/6)
6 (37/6)
8 (17/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Evasion


6
War Weaver
1
Rogue (Spell Reflection ACF)
2
4 (16/4)
6 (38/6)
6 (40/6)
11 (22/2)
Eldritch Tapestry, Spell Reflection


7
War Weaver
2
Ur-Priest
1
4 (18/4)
6 (40/6)
7 (42/6)
13 (27/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Quiescent Weaving 1, Ur-Priest Casting 1


8
War Weaver
3
Ur-Priest
2
5 (20/4)
7 (42/6)
7 (44/6)
14 (28/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Quiescent Weaving 2, Ur-Priest Casting +1


9
War Weaver
4
Sacred Fist
1
6 (24/4)
9 (57/6)
9 (59/6)
14 (29/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Quiescent Weaving 3, Ur-Priest Casting +1


10
War Weaver
5
Sacred Fist
2
7 (28/4)
10 (60/6)
10 (62/6)
15 (30/2)
Wizard Casting +1, Enlarged Tapestry, Quiescent Weaving 4, Ur-Priest Casting +1


11
Uncanny Trickster
1
Sacred Fist
3
8 (32/4)
10 (63/6)
12 (77/6)
15 (92/6)
Ur-Priest Casting +1, Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick


12
Uncanny Trickster
2
Contemplative
1
8 (34/4)
10 (65/6)
13 (80/6)
17 (107/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Ur-Priest Casting +1, Bonus Domain, Divine Health, Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick, War Weaver 6 features


13
Uncanny Trickster
3
Mystic Theurge
1
9 (36/4)
11 (67/6)
13 (83/6)
20 (122/6)
Wizard Casting +2, Ur-Priest Casting +1, Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick, Tricky Defense, War Weaver 7 features


14
Mindbender
1
Mystic Theurge
2
9 (38/4)
11 (69/6)
14 (85/6)
22 (137/6)
Wizard Casting +2, Ur-Priest Casting +1, Telepathy 100 ft


15
Incantatrix
1
Contemplative
2
10 (40/4)
11 (71/6)
14 (87/6)
25 (152/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Ur-Priest Casting +1, Slippery Mind, Bonus Metamagic Feat, Focused Study


16
Incantatrix
2
Contemplative
3
10 (42/4)
12 (73/6)
14 (89/6)
25 (155/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Ur-Priest Casting +1, Divine Wholeness, Cooperative Metamagic


17
Incantatrix
3
LA +4 Template (Lich?)
1
11 (44/4)
12 (75/6)
15 (91/6)
26 (161/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Metamagic Effect


18
Incantatrix
4
LA +4 Template (Lich?)
2
11 (46/4)
12 (77/6)
15 (93/6)
26 (164/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Bonus Metamagic Feat


19
Incantatrix
5
LA +4 Template (Lich?)
3
12 (48/4)
13 (79/6)
15 (95/6)
27 (165/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Metamagic Spell Trigger


20
Incantatrix
6
LA +4 Template (Lich?)
4
12 (50/4)
13 (81/6)
16 (97/6)
27 (168/6)
Wizard Casting +1, Seize Concentration



Yeah, that looks like a solid build.

[Twurps]

Seconding the 'uncanny trickster' AvatarVecna suggested. Weaving up to lvl7 spells in your tapestry is nice.
Would legacy champion be able to get this up to 9th's instead?

[AvatarVecna]

Seconding the 'uncanny trickster' AvatarVecna suggested. Weaving up to lvl7 spells in your tapestry is nice.
Would legacy champion be able to get this up to 9th's instead?

It's probably technically more optimal, but you're already a dual-9ths caster making your touch range spells up to 7th lvl affect a whole group with a single casting from a distance, making 8ths and 9ths do it as well can be a bit of overkill...and that's not taking into account that you might want to do other things with those high-level slots.

Ultimately, if I was playing this kind of character/build starting anywhere from lvl 1 to lvl 20, I'd go with Uncanny Trickster because I'm not a big fan of the Legacy Item sub-system; if I was starting in Epic Gestalt, I'd probably take both to get up to 15th lvl spells cast in such a manner, but as it stands, I prefer using my high level slots for stuff besides group-buffing, and I don't consider ignoring a sub-system I like in favor of a sub-system I dislike for a couple extra levels of big buffs enough justification to take it on its own. If you're a fan of the Legacy Item system, or there's a 9th lvl buff you'd just love to give the entire party (I know I've got a couple), then take Legacy Champion as far as you need.

[unbutu]

It's probably technically more optimal, but you're already a dual-9ths caster making your touch range spells up to 7th lvl affect a whole group with a single casting from a distance

I don't understand where he gets the ability to do it from a distance ? Is he using metamagic to increase the range ?

Oh I just remembered that's the War Weaver captstone. Was confused with the Spellguard of the Silvermoon 4 ability to cast personnal spells trough the weave.

You guys naturally removed that. Is it that those spells are not very interesting compared to the other gains ? I tought the most powefull spells had a range of personnal.

Edit: Are we using rays ? or those spells not worth it ?
Edit: Thanks for putting this build togheter :) I'm still reading about all the pieces.

[AvatarVecna]

You're misunderstanding how Spellguard works: it doesn't change the actual range of the spell, it allows you to pretend it's a touch spell. Because it's range has not been actually changed, thiugh, you can't csst it through the weave.

If yourDM says otherwise, you can replace Incantatrix with Spellguard...not that I know why you'd want to: even then, only personal range spells buffing AC, HP, or saves can be cast that way.

[unbutu]

Alright, I have pretty much everything I needed. Thanks again.

Just an update before this goes silent: The 3 other players have choosen their builds. Indepedently. They all have barbarian on one side of the gestalt, and something different(Warden,Bard,Monk) on the other. It's gonna be so fun to buff those high-bab high strength characters :)

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, I have pretty much everything I needed. Thanks again.

Just an update before this goes silent: The 3 other players have choosen their builds. Indepedently. They all have barbarian on one side of the gestalt, and something different(Warden,Bard,Monk) on the other. It's gonna be so fun to buff those high-bab high strength characters :)

"Alright War Weaver, you've won initiative. But you can only use first level spells through the Tapestry right now, so what'll it be?"

"Enlarge Person."

Thus begins a long career of pure bull****.

EDIT: Once you've got access to 4th lvl spells via the tapestry, you can Polymorph everybody. Now, everybody has to be affected in the same way, and therefore, using the same form, but a pack of cyro-hydras is a wonderful thing.

[unbutu]

You're misunderstanding how Spellguard works: it doesn't change the actual range of the spell, it allows you to pretend it's a touch spell. Because it's range has not been actually changed, thiugh, you can't csst it through the weave.

If yourDM says otherwise, you can replace Incantatrix with Spellguard...not that I know why you'd want to: even then, only personal range spells buffing AC, HP, or saves can be cast that way.

Oh I just understood where this comes from:

They use Spellguard 4 to make all +AC, HP, Saves spells with range personnal become touch, so you can use on tapestry.

Then they use Favored Soul 3 ACF Deity's Favor to make all favored soul spells give temp. HP, and become + HP spells eligible trough Spellguard.

If I wanted to go this way, I would have to not use ur-priest, and start favored soul I think.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh I just understood where this comes from:

They use Spellguard 4 to make all +AC, HP, Saves spells with range personnal become touch, so you can use on tapestry.

Then they use Favored Soul 3 ACF Deity's Favor to make all favored soul spells give temp. HP, and become + HP spells eligible trough Spellguard.

If I wanted to go this way, I would have to not use ur-priest, and start favored soul I think.

That first point is wrong: it doesn't actually change their range, it just lets you act as if the spell's range is different; it's still a personal range spell, so it's not a legal target for the tapestry. That second point is potentially wrong depending on how stingy your DM is: they might decide that a spell needs to *only* boost AC, HP, or saves, and that just adding HP to every personal spell isn't enough to qualify it for use; hell, if your DM is super-stingy about wording, they might say that a spell that boosts AC *and* HP wouldn't count either, since the spell specifies *or* not *and*.

If I were DMing, I'd allow the HP adding to let you cast most any personal range spell with a touch, but I wouldn't let you cast them through the tapestry, but that's just me; since the RAW on this is debatable due to poor wording regarding how these things interact, I recommend talking to the DM about how he would rule Spellguard to interact with War Weaver, especially in regards to the Favored Soul trick.