Factotum that can fight

[Ethernil]

I would like some help in designing a factotum with as little dipping into other classes as possible. I want to maintain the jack of all trades niche, he does extremely well as a skillmonkey, he can use his limited spellcasting with long duration buffs etc but he seems to be severely lacking in offence. Our dm has ruled out iajutsu focus considering it an OA only skill, same goes for autohypnosis as he has banned psionics totally. I was thinking something along the lines of a combination of tripping or power attacking (arcane strike with so little spells wouldn't work) with spellcasting(kind of a gish without high lvl spells). I also would like to avoid chameleon as to make worth picking i should invest 7-10 levels to it and that would leave factotum at a lacking spot. I ve thought of a single level dip in either master of masks for gladiator + angel or archmage mask but if i pick that early thats gona delay my factotum progression without offering much in combat prowess. Maybe a level in some martial class like warblade, or 2 levels of spelldancer for persisting the few daily buffs and evasion? It is 3.5 forgotten realms campaign setting and the team consists of a wizard going into archmage and a cleric. It will start from lvl 1 and go into epics, i want to pick something that can trapmonkey and hold its own in combat. I liked the flavour of factotum the most, close seconds being swift hunter ranger-dervish and wildshape ranger master of many forms. What itches me is that past lvl 11 i ll proll lag behind the other 2 guys tremendously in combat.

[Rubik]

Try dipping periodically into swordsage; it makes an excellent adjunct to factotum, and if you pick the right maneuvers, you can get a LOT out of it. Assassin's Stance + Craven alone can give you a huge boost in damage when sneak attacking, and adding +Int to attack or damage as needed can boost that damage even higher. Swordsage will also give you +Wis to AC in light armor, so if you've got some good point buy or rolled stats, you can net some pretty good numbers.

Try something like factotum 4/swordsage 2/factotum 4 etc. Fractional BAB and fractional saves will come in really handy for this; otherwise, look into picking up a skillful spiked chain or something.

Invest no more than three feats into Font of Inspiration (if you take it at all), and make sure to grab Adaptive Style. The Shadow Blade feat will net you +Dex to damage (as well as +Str as normal, and +Int with your factotum abilities). If Dragon material is allowed, Faerie Mysteries Initiate is great for you, as +Int to hp instead of Con means you can be even more Int-dependant.

And look into grabbing two levels of spirit lion and wolf totem barbarian at later levels for pounce, whirling frenzy, and Improved Trip without wasting a feat on Combat Expertise.

[Ethernil]

That is losing too much of factotum. I doubt the dm will let me pick up any font of inspiration, he didnt like it when i asked if he would accept adding disable device to the scout skill list as per errata. We re using rolls for stats and the dm vetos really high or really low outcomes, go figure why he wont just let us point buy. No retrain or fractional stats allowed. Also he has a thing with nerfing sneak attack to one per round and making it harder to qualify landing one which is why i dont bother with rogue. I would play bard into fochulkan lyrist but that would be weak till lvl 11. Any other idea?

The dm said he would enjoy it if someone of us used either a class or some features from magic of incarnum as he has that book collecting dust for years. I found soulborn as a weaker paladin which sucks, incarnate seeems to have the most options but has only 2 skill points per level so the totemist seems like the oneof the lot that migght fill my needs.

[Rubik]

By the sounds of things, you probably ought not to try optimizing at all, because your DM sounds like he'd nix anything reasonable that you tried.

Factotum 3/totemist 2/factotum isn't a bad build. Take some feats that get you essentia and use the Open Chakra spells in later levels for additional chakra binds.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Incarnate works surprisingly well as a skill monkey- there's enough meld variety that you can be good at anything, if not the best at it. It's a little harder to get offense, admittedly- Dissolving Spittle + Share Soulmeld is probably your best bet.

Totemist is pretty sweet, though. They're a lot more offensively focused, though they've got plenty of utility as well. As a bonus, essentia is shared across all classes, so Totemist 2/Incarnate 1-2 will get you all the skill bonuses and natural weapons you could want.

You could splash those in whenever you want, which would still leave you plenty of Factotum. Take Bonus Essentia and you should have enough to max out one meld at a time, and the aforementioned spells can get you extra binds. If you do take Totemist, be sure to take Double Binding (?) at 9th for an extra totem bind. As a bonus, it sounds like your DM really wants you to use the system, so you should have an easier time of it.

EDIT: Let's say... Azurin Factotum 3/Totemist 2/Incarnate 1/Factotum +14, with Bonus Essentia as your 6th level feat (and . You wind up with 6 essentia, which is just about the max you can invest in a single meld (4 base, +1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, +1 Incarnum Focus item), 6th level spells, and you really only miss out on Cunning Brilliance. Enjoy double-digit skill boosts and tons of natural weapons. Alternately, Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Totemist +16 is downright fierce-- you get all the face-wrecking power of the Totemist and (almost) all the skillmonkey prowess of the Incarnate. Or vice versa (Inc 2/Tot 2/Inc+16, although in that case I might go into Ironsoul Forgemaster or Totem Rager-- Incarnate's low BAB can be mildly painful, though I'm told they get enough attack boosts to overcome it)


Another option is a poison build. Take one level of Psion (Shaper) and learn Psionic Minor Creation, which can make you enough expensive poison to swim in. Now look at Cunning Insight, and notice that it doesn't specify weapon damage rolls. Notice that you roll for poison's ability damage. Poison people and do +Int ability damage. Cackle. (And, possible, dodge flying books)

[daremetoidareyo]

Soulborn is terrible. You make a character with higher soulborn levels than going straight soulborn! 10 levels of spinemeld warrior allows you to meldshape as a 20th level soulborn because a soulborn's meldshaper level is equal to one-half their soulborn level, and a spinemeld warrior's meldshaper level is equal to his class level.

[Tvtyrant]

Totemist is amazing, so I would probably go with that.

I have played with or DMd for 4 Factotums and they are the ultimate "Step on toes" class. They get huge skills bonuses at will, are able to pick spells off any list, and crush the action economy. They are not extremely strong, but they tend to solve everyone else's niches for them.

[stanprollyright]

Imp. Trip/Combat Reflexes is good with a Guisarme, as you get your Int to the trip attempt. Knowledge Devotion goes with any combat style and combos especially well with Power Attack. A Swordsage dip and Shadow Blade for Dex to damage is good. 3 levels of Swashbuckler gets you Weapon Finesse for free and Int to damage. Mix and match the above to taste.

[Ethernil]

The thing is tripping requires a bare minimum of 3 feats, combat epertise, improved trip and combat reflexes, maybe standstill too, so 3 plus 1 for power attack , 1 for knowledge devotion equal 5 of the 7 feats i get. And finesse doesnt work so well since tripping is a strength check so dumping str isnt a good idea. I m guessing power attack with leap attack and shocktrooper along with knowledge devotion will cover the need for damage but unless i alter shelf or polymorph into something durable i ll be prone to resurection addiction. The bind and shape soulmeld feats can help? The whole book borders tome of magic in weirdness. I ve also considered a melee binder into knight of the sacred shield, gm hasnt used that book either and the vestige skill boosts cover the low skill points per lvl, it has 2 good saves d8 hp and mediocre bab. Only drawback is it doesnt get trapfinding.

[Venger]

the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) is a good jumping off point.

your dm sounds like he'll jump on anything good, but even factotum 20 is perfectly livable. throw in a 1 lvl mindbender dip at 6 and nab mindsight, since lvl 20 doesn't give you much, factotum's capstone coming at 19.

[Rubik]

Remember that you don't have to take all of the suggestions; mixing and matching is perfectly fine.

But a Shadow Hand stance (I suggest Child of Shadows, since Assassin's Stance has been needlessly nerfed) and Shadow Blade is still a good idea. +Str, +Dex, and occasionally +Int on your damage seems like a good idea to me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Remember that you don't have to take all of the suggestions; mixing and matching is perfectly fine.

But a Shadow Hand stance (I suggest Child of Shadows, since Assassin's Stance has been needlessly nerfed) and Shadow Blade is still a good idea. +Str, +Dex, and occasionally +Int on your damage seems like a good idea to me.
Factotum 3/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 3/Factotum +13 with Knowledge Devotion and Shadow Blade ought to be fun. Why yes, I will take three stats and an extra +5 to all my attacks, thank you very much. Maybe even throw on TWF (with Improved TWF through Gloves of the Balanced Hand)-- Knowledge Devotion should take care of the attack penalty for you. Depending on starting level/leveling speed, you might delay the Swordsage dip long enough (to ECL 9) to pick up Dance of the Spider, which is a much more fun stance that Child of Shadow, as well as generally stronger maneuvers. Oh, and if you do dip Swashbuckler, be sure to pick up the Arcane Stunt ACF to trade the worthless Grace for swift-action blur 1+Int/day. (Or jump or spider climb, but blur is the best by far, even with the 1-round duration)

On the other hand, Swift Hunter is one of my favorite builds, and-- fun story-- is 100% compatible with Wildshape Ranger. Skirmish might get the same treatment as Sneak Attack through, so I'd be careful. Binder is fun as well, though not so great a skillmonkey.


EDIT: Did some playing. Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 3/Factotum +2/Swordsage 1/Factotum +1, with TWF at 1st, Knowledge Devotion at 3rd, Shadow Blade at 9, and your choice at 6 (Obtain Familiar or Faerie Mysteries Initiate are good choices). Delaying Swordsage lets you pick up to 3rd level maneuvers-- Dance of the Spider, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mighty Throw, Baffling Defense, Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap give you a lovely set of always-useful options. Three or four attacks a round with at least two good stats and Knowledge Devotion ain't at all shabby.

[Ethernil]

I had never read about skillfull weapon, that would make even a beguiler capable of combat. Swift hunter with wildshape ranger means taking an animal form with pounce i suppose? Doesnt sound too bad and it gives access to utility like flying forms. Well skirmish is typed pretty clear, move x feet deal bonus damage, not that sneak attack needs a mathematician major to explain but i guess people who have playec 2nd eddition get stuck with stupid ideas. Binder has a similar disadvantage that a wizard has, with preparation time he can do a lot but he is not flexible like the factotum. 3 lvl swashbuckler dip looks cool flavorwise, both finesse and int to damage are nice but i suppose that means 2wf and no tripping or power attacking and its gona be pretty weak vs damage reduction and immune to precision damage enemies. Does factotum qualify for reserve feats?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I had never read about skillfull weapon, that would make even a beguiler capable of combat.
Factotum already has a medium BAB, though.


Swift hunter with wildshape ranger means taking an animal form with pounce i suppose? Doesnt sound too bad and it gives access to utility like flying forms. Well skirmish is typed pretty clear, move x feet deal bonus damage, not that sneak attack needs a mathematician major to explain but i guess people who have playec 2nd eddition get stuck with stupid ideas.
Pretty much, yeah. You might splash in a few levels of MoMF to get Large forms. Skirmish doesn't have 2e baggage, but I feel like it might still get capped at once/round in the name of symmetry, if not also "balance."


Binder has a similar disadvantage that a wizard has, with preparation time he can do a lot but he is not flexible like the factotum.
It's a trade off-- extreme flexibility with prep time, or moderate flexibility without. Binder considerably less so than Wizard, of course, but that's the nature of the beast. Another good option along Factotum lines is a Bard with the Bardic Knack ACF. You get plenty of skill points, and count as having 1/2 level ranks in everything. Either grab Jack of All Trades or put a single point into any trained-only skills you care about, then load up with utility spells and go to town.


3 lvl swashbuckler dip looks cool flavorwise, both finesse and int to damage are nice but i suppose that means 2wf and no tripping or power attacking and its gona be pretty weak vs damage reduction and immune to precision damage enemies.
Meh? You can still take the feats, still get Int to the check and there's nothing stopping you from also putting a decent score in Str (apart from roll/point-buy limits, I guess).


Does factotum qualify for reserve feats?
By RAW, I don't think so-- Arcane Dilettante technically gives you SLAs, not spells. It's a reasonable ruling, though, so ask your DM.

[Ethernil]

The problem with trying to use factotum as a gish skillmonkey (i ve found it impossibe to build one) is that not only does he get few spells and buff durations were nerfed in 3.5 but also that he can only memorize each once per day. So you cant relliably have stuff like bull strength on you all the time. Though for a tripping build i guess you could persist enlarge person once you get access to your single lvl 7 spell but i dont think its worth the feat for only 1 buff. Any way without extreme cheesee to work around that?

After looking at chameleon it seems like not that bad a class but i ve tried a factotum into chameleon in a previous game and the classes compete with each other rather than combine. Factotum needs inteligence and a physical stat, preferably dex over str with light armor and lvls to unlock the class abilities while chameleon needs pretty much most stats andseveral lvls to add power to your build. Overall i fellt very weak for pretty much the entire campaign that ended at lvl 12. Maybe it would work better with another base, with the nerf to sneak attack that bars some doors. I ve considered 2 lvls of feat rogue if that gets approved by the dm, 2 lvls of monk for armorless ac bonus plus feats and a lvl of cloistered(or normal if that doesnt fly) cleric with practiced spellcaster for divine metamagic and the ability to pick up craft feats with the floating one. Unfortunately without fractional bab i ll be screwed till lvl 7 or so.

I ve considered bard but i dont like the base class from the phb, any ways to make him more frontline? Like i dunno, jade phoenix mage? But that would significantly nerf his skill monkeyness.

[stanprollyright]

The problem with trying to use factotum as a gish skillmonkey (i ve found it impossibe to build one) is that not only does he get few spells and buff durations were nerfed in 3.5 but also that he can only memorize each once per day. So you cant relliably have stuff like bull strength on you all the time. Though for a tripping build i guess you could persist enlarge person once you get access to your single lvl 7 spell but i dont think its worth the feat for only 1 buff. Any way without extreme cheesee to work around that?

Get a wand of Enlarge Person and other buffs and a familiar to cast it on you.


I ve considered bard but i dont like the base class from the phb, any ways to make him more frontline? Like i dunno, jade phoenix mage? But that would significantly nerf his skill monkeyness.

Dip into Crusader, take Song of the White Raven, optimize Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration, get Bardic Knack, and go into Sublime Chord (which progresses Bardic Knowledge AND gives you 9th level spells). Either sword and board or reach tripper should work...by the time you're into Sublime Chord its crappy combat chassis won't matter. Alternately, Virtuoso gives 6+ skills/level and is 9/10 casting plus music abilities but does not stack Bardic Knowledge (good way to progress Sublime Cord casting). War Singer has full BAB, d8 HD, 4+ skills, and progresses music but not Knowledge or spellcasting. It just depends on how much of a skillmonkey vs. frontliner vs. caster you want to be.

[Ethernil]

I keep reading that it is optimal to advance sublime chord with another prestige class but i dont think it is legal, i would expect prestige classes to advance only the base class, not to mention sublime chord has a rule (bardic lock) which i suppose means you have to take all 10 lvls in a row once you enter the prc.

[Troacctid]

I keep reading that it is optimal to advance sublime chord with another prestige class but i dont think it is legal, i would expect prestige classes to advance only the base class, not to mention sublime chord has a rule (bardic lock) which i suppose means you have to take all 10 lvls in a row once you enter the prc.

Most prestige classes allow you to choose which spellcasting class you advance if you are a multiclass character. I don't know of any offhand that are restricted to the base class.

There is no such ability as Bardic Lock. You might be thinking of the Seeker of the Song, which has a similar-but-different sort of restriction.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Most prestige classes allow you to choose which spellcasting class you advance if you are a multiclass character. I don't know of any offhand that are restricted to the base class.

To expand on this, with many caster prestige classes you don't even need to advance the same class each level. Take Bard 8/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 8, for example; Jade Phoenix Mage originally advances Bard and then later on advances Sublime Chord.

[Ethernil]

therafim.wikidot.com/sublime-chord
first lvl ability: Bardic Lock:
Following the path of the Sublime Chord requires utter devotion, upon entering the class you may not exit from the class for the full ten levels until you've mastered the way of the Sublime Chord.

I still dig the factotum more than bard, even though it seems weaker. I considered factotum 8 warblade 2 eternal blade 10 but without font of inspiration feats it will be starved for them. I mean with kind of leapfrogging, first warblade lvl at lvl 5 for 3d lvl maneuvers and second at 10 or so.

[Troacctid]

Sublime Chord has no such ability.

[Rubik]

Sublime Chord has no such ability.Correct. The Wikidot version is homebrew.

[stanprollyright]

therafim.wikidot.com/sublime-chord
first lvl ability: Bardic Lock:
Following the path of the Sublime Chord requires utter devotion, upon entering the class you may not exit from the class for the full ten levels until you've mastered the way of the Sublime Chord.

I still dig the factotum more than bard, even though it seems weaker. I considered factotum 8 warblade 2 eternal blade 10 but without font of inspiration feats it will be starved for them. I mean with kind of leapfrogging, first warblade lvl at lvl 5 for 3d lvl maneuvers and second at 10 or so.

As others have said, Bardic Lock is not an official thing.

You have to be Factotum 8/Warblade 1 to get 3rd level maneuvers (or F6/W2 or F4/W3 or F2/W4 or Warblade 5). Non-warblade levels count as half.

[Ethernil]

My bad, i checked complete arcane and there is no such limitation. The jpm bard build looks strong and all but it has no trapfinding :(. We recently got some eberron books, artificer looks like a very capable skill monkey, with combat possibilities and can hold it's own in a group with a cleric and a wizard. The gm has given me the green light to using him in a FR game, though he ll prolly ban staff that look op to him like the wearing 2 extra rings feat. Otherwise, artificer 20 seems like a dreamy character, skills, spells, melee combat, whatever you want you can do. And his class abilities pretty much leave most of your regular feats available to do whatever you want with them.

[stanprollyright]

And a metric f**kload of bookkeeping.

[Troacctid]

Artificers are one of the most powerful classes in the game, but they are also one of the most difficult to maximize. I think they ask for more research and bookkeeping than any other class, since they have access to literally every spell and every magic item in the game (not just through scrolls and wands, but also through infusions that can produce any given spell on demand), and they tend to accumulate a large inventory of consumable items that you have to track.

Luckily, they can still do pretty well for themselves even if you aren't playing them to peak efficiency, and they have a reasonable amount of skill points, backed by the utility of infusions. They're not a proper skill monkey class (4 + Int is only average, and the class skill list is a bit sparse), but they can play trap-detector with the best of them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Beguiler is probably the single class with the best ratio of skills:effectiveness:difficulty. Scout 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Totemist whatever and Wizard/Spellthief/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster are also both fantastic and not overly painful. Scout/Swordsage with Able Learner makes a fantastic sneaky ninja rogue.

[Ethernil]

We ve drifted quite off the topic of the thread. I m looking for dips to make factotum more combat worthy. I would like to keep at least 13 factotum lvls and fight in light armor. Swashbuckler looks like a good start, but it takes 3 lvls, would 3 lvls of tob classes fair better? Do incarnum classes offer front loaded power? Binder seems to be either a single lvl dip or full on commitment. Also I will need to tie in thematically somehow the classes, not like "my character is thirsty for power because our dm doesn't give proper loot or allow us to buy reasonable items but throws really hard encounters and is then forced to "cook" his dice rolls or not play the monster optimally".

[Rubik]

We ve drifted quite off the topic of the thread. I m looking for dips to make factotum more combat worthy. I would like to keep at least 13 factotum lvls and fight in light armor. Swashbuckler looks like a good start, but it takes 3 lvls, would 3 lvls of tob classes fair better? Do incarnum classes offer front loaded power? Binder seems to be either a single lvl dip or full on commitment. Also I will need to tie in thematically somehow the classes, not like "my character is thirsty for power because our dm doesn't give proper loot or allow us to buy reasonable items but throws really hard encounters and is then forced to "cook" his dice rolls or not play the monster optimally".13 factotum levels? Take a look again at what I mentioned earlier:


Try dipping periodically into swordsage; it makes an excellent adjunct to factotum, and if you pick the right maneuvers, you can get a LOT out of it. Assassin's Stance + Craven alone can give you a huge boost in damage when sneak attacking, and adding +Int to attack or damage as needed can boost that damage even higher. Swordsage will also give you +Wis to AC in light armor, so if you've got some good point buy or rolled stats, you can net some pretty good numbers.

Try something like factotum 4/swordsage 2/factotum 4 etc. Fractional BAB and fractional saves will come in really handy for this; otherwise, look into picking up a skillful spiked chain or something.

Invest no more than three feats into Font of Inspiration (if you take it at all), and make sure to grab Adaptive Style. The Shadow Blade feat will net you +Dex to damage (as well as +Str as normal, and +Int with your factotum abilities). If Dragon material is allowed, Faerie Mysteries Initiate is great for you, as +Int to hp instead of Con means you can be even more Int-dependant.

And look into grabbing two levels of spirit lion and wolf totem barbarian at later levels for pounce, whirling frenzy, and Improved Trip without wasting a feat on Combat Expertise.Mixing in the levels as suggested, factotum 13/swordsage 5 or 6/barbarian 1 or 2 (not in that order) would stand you in good stead, depending on whether you prefer slightly better maneuvers or a bonus feat that doesn't require the prereq.

[Ethernil]

As i said the dm has houserulled sneak attack into near uselessness, i suppose i could use maneuvers that do fire and negative energy damage or setting sun grabs. I just liked the warblade a bit more because of the intelligence synergy, though it would be either one or 4 lvl dip i suppose in that case. I dont really like the swordsage recovery method either.
Why would i get barbarian ? It doesnt really fit the intelligent fighter theme and i dont think i ll really need pounce. I ll most likely play a finesse character with int as primary stat and dex as secondary.
Whisper gnome seems appealing, or human or maybe changeling.
Does getting a few lvls of both warblade and swordsage work? We dont use exp penalties for multiclassing but as i said we neec to provide at least some background and have some coherency in our choises, no barbarian rogue paladin for example.
The warhaper prestige class looks a fun 2 or 3 lvl dip and i dont think the dm will oppose if i pick it past 10 lvl. The 4 str and con boost will prolly scare him more than crit immunity in the early lvls and he really hates endless healing sources like fast healing for no reason. Though getting factotum 10 to qualify for polymorph and thus the prestige class and another mid attack progression class like swordsage is gona seriously hurt my bab.

[Rubik]

Why should you have to add fluff to a level of barbarian beyond, "I wanted to learn how to fight to my strengths and improve my skill in martial combat. Learning how to strike in a quick flurry of slashes and how to trip my opponents up seemed like a good idea at the time." Nothing about the barbarian ACFs requires you to fit with the stereotypical fluff whatsoever. All you need to have in order to "justify" it is wanting to hit things better.

But yes, mixing in both swordsage and warblade can work easily. It's just that higher level strikes and stances are generally better than lower level ones, so adding in a few extra levels later on works well.

[ben-zayb]

Factotum 16 / Hit-and-Run Fighter 2 / Invisible Fist, Decisive Strike, Sleeping Tiger (1st), Denying Stance (2nd) Monk 2, grab Shadow Blade, Evasive Reflexes, and Robilar's Gambit.

The idea is to use Decisive Strike to deal double damage (including Factotum's Int to damage), and stack Shadow Blade and Hit-and-Run for 2*Dex to damage (4*Dex if Decisive). You get Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes from Monk, the latter (especially in conjunction with Robilar) helping you deal more damage with your Decisive AoOs. Evasive Reflexes gives you the option of Fight or Flight; make sure to get Sparring Dummy to enable 10ft-steps and Spiked Chain (works with Shadow Blade / Weapon Finesse) to increase your threat range.

Adding the Dark template or the Collar that grants it, allows you to make a hide check with every 5ft-step provided you have cover/concealment, and in effect allows you to easily proc hit-and-run.

[Ethernil]

2 lvls of monk with carmendine monk acf look like a good addition but i dont expect hit and run fighter to be allowed by the dm to a non drow. He banned the intimidate feat from the same book after i had put a 15 on charisma. The thing with all the 3/4 bab classes is that they hurt non fractional bab builds. More than 2 and its overkill.
Something along the lines of 13 factotum 4 warblade 2 swordsage 1 whatever looks like what i m looking for. Maybe barbarian for pounce. I know many will say cloistered cleric but that means more lost bab and i doubt the cheese entailed will be accepted. Maybe 1 level adjustment race since the dm said he doesnt accept buyoff.