The Urge to Theurge, Take 2

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, so I'm building for a lvl 16 PF game that's looking like it's going to head into low epic, and I want to play a Mystic Theurge (if I can make it work, because I love Theurges) or an Arcanist (if I can't). Pathfinder has only the Mystic Theurge as a dual-progression caster PrC, and early entry isn't the problem here; is there any way to continue advancing two caster classes for four levels before I can start taking Mystic Theurge beyond lvl 10, or am I stuck with one high-mid lvl caster and one high lvl caster class?

I seem to recall some class existing in PF that acts like the 3.5 Legacy Champion, where it advances another classes features, but I can't find it or recall what it was named. Did I imagine that?

[avr]

The evangelist PrC; it doesn't actually say it can advance another PrC past level 10 with the aligned class ability, but it's a reasonable interpretation for a simple one like mystic theurge. You do lose one level of advancement, it doesn't kick in until level 2 of evangelist.

[Florian]

Alright, so I'm building for a lvl 16 PF game that's looking like it's going to head into low epic, and I want to play a Mystic Theurge (if I can make it work, because I love Theurges) or an Arcanist (if I can't). Pathfinder has only the Mystic Theurge as a dual-progression caster PrC, and early entry isn't the problem here; is there any way to continue advancing two caster classes for four levels before I can start taking Mystic Theurge beyond lvl 10, or am I stuck with one high-mid lvl caster and one high lvl caster class?

I seem to recall some class existing in PF that acts like the 3.5 Legacy Champion, where it advances another classes features, but I can't find it or recall what it was named. Did I imagine that?

That would be the Evangelist PrC from Inner Sea Gods.
If it works or not will be based on what class you base your aligned class on, as you must pick one and that only advances along with actual Evangelist levels.

[ericgrau]

7th and 7th level spells leading into 9th and 7th or 8th and 8th is still really nice even if you can't quite get up to dual 9s. Being behind is more painful at low level. At high level you can still do plenty of nice things even if you're 1 or 2 spell levels behind. Try spells that remain useful regardless of level, such as battlefield control. Take advantage of your huge number of spell slots by blowing low level slots on hour/level spells kept up 24 hours. Extend or its metamagic rod(s) can help. Rather than getting too many combat spells and having tons of unused spells at the end of the day. Divine classes have a lot of amazing 10 min/level spells that at mid level you can't keep up all day; but with extend and a boosted caster level you may be able to pull it off. At least 8 hours, if not 24. Also look for arcane + divine combos like contingency + resurrection on yourself.

Get tons and tons of 1st through 3rd level utility scrolls from both classes. Maybe even a few higher level scrolls for situational stuff like divination spells. I was a in a campaign at 12th level where I got precisely 1 legend lore scroll (level 6) in my large pile of scrolls. I squatted and squatted on it until we ran into a plot-important major artifact then I said "This. This is the thing. I pop my scroll of legend lore." Get wands for spammable spells like augury, invisibility (whole party, doors, etc.), silence and cure light wounds of course.

At epic 9th and 7ths (or better if you improve your progression somehow) will let you start taking epic feats until the 2nd side catches up. Then once you have dual 9s plus epic feats you can really do anything that any single classed caster can and more.


The evangelist PrC; it doesn't actually say it can advance another PrC past level 10 with the aligned class ability, but it's a reasonable interpretation for a simple one like mystic theurge. You do lose one level of advancement, it doesn't kick in until level 2 of evangelist.

I took a look at evangelist and it all depends whether or not your DM thinks a "prestige class" counts as a "class" for aligned class. It's sort of like saying "Well a truck is a car too", but when someone says "car" does he really intend to include trucks, or does he mean to distinguish? And what is much harder to justify is whether or not you can assume MT theurge class features even exist past level 10. There is epic mystic theurge, but I think that is a different prestige class. Old discussion here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz0r?Mystic-Theurge-and-Evangelist

I think PF has rough guidelines on continuing regular classes into epic. Since you are going to play epic, the DM may thus allow regular mystic theurge to go past 10, and then if he lets it count as an aligned class you're good to go... except that you might not be able to take mystic theurge 11 (nor clone MT 11) until character level 21.

[Florian]

Just some weird side notes on the Mystic Theurge and certain abilities.

If you go Cleric/Sorcerer, picking the Wildblooded archetype and the Empyrean Bloodline sets both caster stats to Wis.
If your dm agrees to let MT work as basis for the Evangelist, check out that your BAB and saves are now slightly better.

[Yanisa]

In my opinion Evangelist isn't worth the trouble it gives unless you can full blown cheese.

A normal Mystic Theurge build would be 5 divine/5 arcane/10 mystic for a total of 15 caster levels on both sides. (Or 17/13 if want those 9th level spells)

A normal Evangelist Theurge would be 3 divine/3 arcane/10 mystic/4 evangelist for a total of 16 caster levels on both sides. (And getting 9th levels is impossible without dropping evangelist...) To be fair you also gets some Evangelist goodies, but it has a pretty heavy religious theme which might costs the flavor of your character.




However.... A Cheesy Evangelist Theurge would be a 1 divine/1 arcane/10 mystic/8 evangelist for total of 18 on both sides, now we are talking. You could even go Sorcerer/Oracle and still blast 9th level spells.... But getting an early Mystic Theurge entry* is hard and most likely results in books getting thrown at your face.

*The only I know that still works is Equipment Trick (Sunrod) + any two of the following (depending your class) Dancing Lantern, Snapdragon Fireworks, Snapdragon Fireworks and Unwelcome Halo.

[Jigawatts]

Have you considered the actual Theurge class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/theurge)? It is a Theurge that actually works with no shenanigans needed.

[Kraken]

How are you getting away with only 1 level in each base class? Mystic theurge requires 3 skill ranks, so its minimum entry level is 4. A human with equipment trick and deific obedience could get into evangelist at level 3, then head into theurge at 4, but to do this you'd need to somehow finagle the 3rd level spells requirement of evangelist. Equipment trick only gets you to 2nd level spells as far as I can tell, or am I missing something? Edit: deific obedience itself requires 3 ranks of knowledge religion, so that kills this proposition.

[AvatarVecna]

Have you considered the actual Theurge class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/theurge)? It is a Theurge that actually works with no shenanigans needed.

I have considered it; I'm actually playing one in another game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?468804-Inherited-Spellbook-Help-Picking-New-Spells), but the DM running the game this thread was made for isn't allowing 3rd party other than psionics, so I have to make my way around the issue.

[ericgrau]

It also seems a bit strong given that you get bonus spells from both ability scores. So you really aren't losing spells per day or much of anything compared to a straight caster, and you get to cast almost any spell. With items you'll probably easily get one bonus spell from each side up until 5th level spells. After that it's a little harder but by that point you have plenty of amazing spells to do well even if you get slightly fewer high level spells than normal. Something like 1 less. Oh, plus crazy class features that boost your power a lot more than that lost spell per day is worth. So you can cast anything, get crazy abilities on top of that, and lose almost nothing.

[meschlum]

Well, there is a different source of cheese you can use to attain your goals. It takes some work, but gets you much closer...

Pathfinder allows monsters at a level equal to their CR, and adds a discount on top as you level up. Some monsters have CL = HD, more or less, so you can use that.

You get optimal discounts at CR 8, and the classic example is most likely a Nymph, with Druid 7 casting at CR 7 (other options exist, mostly Sorcerer based).

Nymph 7, Wizard 3, Mystic Theurge 1 is a 10th level character (discounts kick in) with 8 / 4 casting
Nymph 7, Wizard 3, Mystic Theurge 5 is a 13th level character (discounts kick in) with 12 / 8 casting
Nymph 7, Wizard 3, Mystic Theurge 9 is a 16th level character (discounts kick in) with 16 / 12 casting

That's the most discount you can get with a Nymph base (3 levels), and you have 4 more levels to go. One more Mystic Theurge for 17 / 13 and three levels of wizard gives you 17 / 16 casting. Close!

Of course, if you're looking for cheese, there are ways to get even higher (or just give your Nymph another CR from whatever source - CR 8 gives you 4 discounts, so it works either way).

The most recent by the book extreme option I've seen on that front is the Drider Lamia Matriarch. At CR 10, it casts like a Cleric / Sorcerer 6 / 9. Level 16 lets you add 8 levels of Mystic Theurge, for 14 / 17 casting. Level 20 would add 5 more levels in all (2 Mystic Theurge and 3 others), to a total of 19 / 19 casting (or 18 / 20, 17 / 21, or 16 / 22 if you don't want 9th level cleric casting).