Scaling Up Monsters (3.5)

[Kesnit]

I am running a 3.5 adaptation of the World's Largest Dungeon. I've implemented a few houserules, and one is starting to cause me some problems.

Normally, PCs are restricted to what the DM drops in the dungeon. I ruled that the entrance room has a 1-way sled with a town just outside. Living (and undead) can't go out, but inanimate objects (i.e. loot) can. This allows the players to pick their gear, so long as they pay for it. (The sell at about 50% and buy at 100% of DMG value.)

However, the people that wrote the dungeon assumed the PCs would be horribly undergeared, so monsters are horribly underpowered. Since I screwed up earlier, my 6th LVL PCs have about 30,000 each in gear. (I have been reducing treasure drops in a slow but steady attempt to bring the party back in line.) But combat is usually anti-climactic, since the monsters almost never hit the party, and when they do, they do little damage. (I did manage to kill 2 PCs using Shadows, but that was a fluke.) Meanwhile, the PCs can kill the monsters in 3-4 hits.

What I want to do is scale up the monsters to make them more dangerous. I've already increased their HP, setting it to a number that means the party doesn't 1-shot them. What I can't figure out is where to set their attack bonus and damage.

1) What is a fair estimate for how often monsters should hit the PCs? (AC varies among the party, so I am going for the low end. That way I reward the 2 players who boosted their AC.)

2) As a percentage of HP, how much damage should monsters do?

I don't want to kill the PCs (unless the dice love me one night), but I'd like to make this challenging. The party has invested in Cure wands and has a Cleric, so out-of-combat healing is a realistic option for them (and they use it).

[Bronk]

When you scale up monsters following 3.5 rules, you do it by either adding hit dice (which could make them even bigger and tougher as well), adding templates, adding equipment, or adding more monsters (all of which would increase their challenge rating). Either way, any extra damage they would do falls out as a result of that.

Here's a great handbook from the forums:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

Edit: I would add that your monsters can spread their attacks around the group if you don't want to outright kill any individual PC.

[nedz]

You could always just increase the number of monsters, but if they only hit on a 20 then this is futile.

I would normally go for improved tactics and add some debuffing or BFC casters - this can even the odds too.

[Beheld]

Uh... are you doing your own treasure drops for every monster? The Dungeon has basically no loot in it at all, even if they sold everything there for 100% of DMG value and then used the gold to craft items thus paying only 50% DMG value, they would still be way way way way below WBL.

I suspect the problem you are encountering is that the Dungeon has fully 3 times as many encounters of each level as you need to level up, so if you roll treasure for each encounter, you will quickly find that the party has 3 times as much wealth for their level, then 3.2 times, then 3.5 times, then 3.7 times ect.

[Kesnit]

When you scale up monsters following 3.5 rules, you do it by either adding hit dice (which could make them even bigger and tougher as well), adding templates, adding equipment, or adding more monsters (all of which would increase their challenge rating). Either way, any extra damage they would do falls out as a result of that.

That doesn't really answer my question. I don't know how far too upgrade them. Should they hit on a 10? 15? The monsters in the first few areas don't use gear, and the last thing I want to do is drop stuff that the party can turn around and sell.

Also, I am trying to avoid as much work as possible. This is a long dungeon, and I'm going to have to upgrade everything. I'd rather not spend all my time recalculating everything they will meet.


Here's a great handbook from the forums:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

I'll take a look at that.


Edit: I would add that your monsters can spread their attacks around the group if you don't want to outright kill any individual PC.

They already do, though the party is pretty good about using tactics to focus the monsters on the two with the highest AC.


You could always just increase the number of monsters, but if they only hit on a 20 then this is futile.

That's my problem. I am increasing the number of monsters. But most of them have an AB of +3 or +4. Everyone has an AC over 20. In addition, the monsters have AC of about 14, while the Fighter/Barb has an AB of +13 when Raging. (The other PCs have ABs of about 10.)


I would normally go for improved tactics and add some debuffing or BFC casters - this can even the odds too.

It is rare that the monsters include casters. Occasionally, there will be one, but not often. When there is one, I use it to the best of my ability, but it doesn't happen much.


Uh... are you doing your own treasure drops for every monster? The Dungeon has basically no loot in it at all,

Actually, it has lots of loot. The party found an item worth 60,000 gold last session. (I cut the value to 6000.) +1 armor and weapons are becoming common (according to the book, not what I am dropping). At one point, they found a +3 equivalent sword (+1 unholy longsword). Then there's assorted things like gems, paintings, etc., that have value of 500-1000 each.

I thought the dungeon would be more dangerous than it is, so I gave them a little above WBL for their starting level of 4. Then I didn't watch what the dungeon was dropping, so didn't realize how much stuff they had until I had a new player join and I had to figure out how much gold he had to build with.

However, you are right that the dungeon gives way more XP than is needed to level. The party is "Roladexing" the dungeon, but I am holding their leveling to keep them at a level for the area where they are playing. (They were at LVL 5 for months...) So it makes sense that their wealth would exceed their level, since I am holding one back, but until recently, wasn't holding back the other.

But to answer your original question, no, I am not rolling treasure for each encounter. I am only dropping what the dungeon provides. The issue is that the party can actually sell the stuff that isn't useful, rather than have to leave it behind (or take it and hope they can use it to barter later).

[Beheld]

What item is worth 60000k?

[nedz]

They already do, though the party is pretty good about using tactics to focus the monsters on the two with the highest AC.
I would normally try to outflank them and have the monsters attack from two directions - I'm not sure if you can do this.
This is one of the reasons I don't run modules - you have to do a lot of work to make them into what you want.


However, you are right that the dungeon gives way more XP than is needed to level. The party is "Roladexing" the dungeon, but I am holding their leveling to keep them at a level for the area where they are playing. (They were at LVL 5 for months...) So it makes sense that their wealth would exceed their level, since I am holding one back, but until recently, wasn't holding back the other

Could you not remove a section of the dungeon so as to drop them into a more challenging section ?

[Bronk]

That doesn't really answer my question. I don't know how far too upgrade them. Should they hit on a 10? 15? The monsters in the first few areas don't use gear, and the last thing I want to do is drop stuff that the party can turn around and sell.

Also, I am trying to avoid as much work as possible. This is a long dungeon, and I'm going to have to upgrade everything. I'd rather not spend all my time recalculating everything they will meet.


Well, that's what I'm trying to say. As you know, you generally try to challenge your players with encounters of a challenge rating that approximately equals their party level, give or take. If you want your monsters to hit harder and more surely, then when you upgrade them, take the original monsters, then change them using all the ideas that have been offered that, say, make them bigger, stronger and tougher, and stop when their adjusted CRs get too high for your party. It's possible that not everyone gets hit all the time, and that's okay. That's why your players jacked their AC in the first place, after all.

Your only real problem with that is that it would give them more XP per encounter, but you've already stunted their development anyway.

Alternately, you could hold them back by level drains, increased character death followed by resurrection, having them flee an encounter and not gain any XP, allowing more party members via overly friendly NPCs or Leadership based cohorts so the total XP is divided between more people, and so on.

Or, you could just let them level up normally, and have them steamroll encounters that you find personally boring. That's the path of least resistance for you, unless you want to have this one dungeon last a few years.

[Kesnit]

What item is worth 60000k?

Darkskull (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#darkskull). Next to it is a +1 unholy undead bane quarterstaff, making a +4-equivilent weapon, had I given it to the party.


I would normally try to outflank them and have the monsters attack from two directions - I'm not sure if you can do this.

I do when I can. But they've gotten smart about using hallways and doors as funnel-spots.


Could you not remove a section of the dungeon so as to drop them into a more challenging section ?

No, because each section has a story, and they are determined to clear every area.


Or, you could just let them level up normally, and have them steamroll encounters that you find personally boring. That's the path of least resistance for you, unless you want to have this one dungeon last a few years.

Neither I nor my players find steamrolling fun, which is why I am trying to make the combats more challenging.

[Beheld]

Darkskull (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#darkskull). Next to it is a +1 unholy undead bane quarterstaff, making a +4-equivilent weapon, had I given it to the party.

Uh... Isn't that in the level 18 area?

[Kesnit]

Uh... Isn't that in the level 18 area?

Nope. It's in Section E, which is LVL 4-6. On the corpse of a necromancer who entered the area with an army of shadows and 2 apprentices.

[Bronk]

Neither I nor my players find steamrolling fun, which is why I am trying to make the combats more challenging.

That's cool. You do have your work cut out for you though, but I'm sure you'll get a lot faster at adding templates and HD and so on until finally you'll be adding extra powers and to hits on the fly. Also, they'll probably be deep into epic levels, which will also be fun!

[Crake]

If they're so determined to clear EVERY area, then they need to accept that some areas are too low for them. By scaling up the low level areas, they will level up faster, and more often, resulting in you having to scale up the next area, and then the next, and the next, until you've had to scale up the whole dungeon.

They just need to pick betwee steamrolling the low level areas, or just moving on to the higher level ones, that simple really.

[Kesnit]

If they're so determined to clear EVERY area, then they need to accept that some areas are too low for them. By scaling up the low level areas, they will level up faster, and more often, resulting in you having to scale up the next area, and then the next, and the next, until you've had to scale up the whole dungeon.

They just need to pick betwee steamrolling the low level areas, or just moving on to the higher level ones, that simple really.

I'm leveling them when I want to, not when they earn the XP for it. I'm trying to work it out so that they spend about equal time at each level for a given area, though I leveled them to 5 too soon, so had to keep them there for a several months (real time) before leveling them to 6. Once they finish the current area, I will level them to 7.

[stanprollyright]

It is rare that the monsters include casters. Occasionally, there will be one, but not often. When there is one, I use it to the best of my ability, but it doesn't happen much.


Well there you go. Instead of just more mundane monsters, throw more casters at them. Their ACs are high, but what about their saves and touch ACs? Not only do casters target different defenses, debuffs and BFCs can negate the players' advantages to the point where the mooks are actually threatening, and group buffers can make mobs scary without having to worry as much about making them too powerful because a well-placed dispel or removal of the buffer can make those scary buffs go away.

[ComaVision]

What I want to do is scale up the monsters to make them more dangerous. I've already increased their HP, setting it to a number that means the party doesn't 1-shot them. What I can't figure out is where to set their attack bonus and damage.


When you scale up monsters following 3.5 rules, you do it by either adding hit dice (which could make them even bigger and tougher as well), adding templates, adding equipment, or adding more monsters (all of which would increase their challenge rating). Either way, any extra damage they would do falls out as a result of that.


That doesn't really answer my question. I don't know how far too upgrade them. Should they hit on a 10? 15? The monsters in the first few areas don't use gear, and the last thing I want to do is drop stuff that the party can turn around and sell.

Also, I am trying to avoid as much work as possible. This is a long dungeon, and I'm going to have to upgrade everything. I'd rather not spend all my time recalculating everything they will meet.

It does answer your question. If you've already altered their HP to something that works better, figure out how many HD that is and add the appropriate bonuses to saves, BaB, AC, etc. You can also use the extra HD to grab generic feats like Improved Natural Armor and Toughness.

[Fizban]

Normally, PCs are restricted to what the DM drops in the dungeon. I ruled that the entrance room has a 1-way sled with a town just outside. Living (and undead) can't go out, but inanimate objects (i.e. loot) can. This allows the players to pick their gear, so long as they pay for it.
That is far more clever than the googly moogly I was going to implement.

1) What is a fair estimate for how often monsters should hit the PCs? (AC varies among the party, so I am going for the low end. That way I reward the 2 players who boosted their AC.)

2) As a percentage of HP, how much damage should monsters do?

I don't want to kill the PCs (unless the dice love me one night), but I'd like to make this challenging. The party has invested in Cure wands and has a Cleric, so out-of-combat healing is a realistic option for them (and they use it).
The WLD doesn't challenge based on attrition (most of the time), so I'd point out that out of combat healing shouldn't be a problem. If anything it's more likely to make them confident and increase the likelihood they overextend when they should be backing out, which combined with the occasional unlucky roll is where the danger comes from. Since the whole thing is run at the pace of the PCs, they actually shouldn't have a problem unless they let themselves get swarmed or a random encounter drops something nasty behind them. I'd also highly suggest abandoning the idea of clearing every single area. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would take too long like the book does, but even if you upscale the other low level paths and keep a hard limit of 1-2 levels per region you're still likely to pass epic before finishing. If they don't like steamrolling then they should really just get a move on.

The answer to the numbered questions is: there isn't one. Maybe there were some tables used during game design, but we're not privy to them like we are in 5e, and parties can vary wildly so they wouldn't matter anyway. What you'll need to do is pretty much just compare every encounter to the PCs and see how it goes. Take the damage per hit, multiply by the accuracy vs party members, get the number of rounds it takes to down a PC, and compare how fast the PCs can down the monster. Easy to calculate since each number on the d20 is worth 5%: hitting on 13-20 is 40%. And that's vs the characters that are supposed to get hit, back row characters are not the balancing point for AC. Just as you can eyeball the effective accuracy of attacks, you can do the same for spells and get a count on how many foes should be neutralized by save-or-X. The right buff spell can easily halve incoming or double outgoing dps, so you can still compare buffs to direct effects. Look at the fight from a couple tactical angles: I usually consider the most effective PC plan, the brute force PC plan, and the "we done messed up" PC plan (usually equating to ambush/preferred fighting ground/good spell matchups and winning initiative, straight brawling/blasting but still in proper formation, and finally losing formation and getting the squishes in danger). Depending on how hard the fight is supposed to be you can compare how many resources (usually spells, especially if out-of-combat healing is cheap so hp don't count, but also other abilities) they need to clear it without dying.

In theory this is 20% for EL=Party Level (assuming 4 members), up to 80% or more at EL=PL+4 for a truly even fight, though in practice an "even fight" is won by whoever makes it uneven in their favor and the winner will still have at least 50% of their resources remaining. Obviously the numbers won't be precise and the whole point of dice is to foul up those predictions, but if it's supposed to be an easy fight below party level then the at-wills (Fighters, Rogues, Warlocks, etc) should only need a lower tier spell or two's worth of help. A "challenging" fight should require a top-tier spell and a couple lower (as well as a shot of any class abilities with 2-3+ uses per day), while an even or worse fight will involve multiple buffs and hurling the best you've got until it drops.

Now I've just said all of that, but I never actually go that far. I just take solid monsters, make sure their CR and optimization level matches the PCs, check for problem areas such as giants or Maximize Breath one-rounding people, and go. When I ran Red Hand of Doom I modified almost every foe in the book, but WLD is using some very stock PHB terrible unoptimized builds. Since the whole point of WLD is that it's big and already done, my response was to run it straight: no help, no hints, just the players running into whatever the module had waiting and dealing with it on their own, including the map. Things went just fine for them after they got their footing with only a bit of a scramble finding anti-shadow weapons, until they ran into the ooze (mentioned below). In retrospect it probably was a bit boring. Most of the drama came from Trapped in a Dungeon antics and random encounters, but the actual scripted rooms were pretty blah. Which appears to be in line with the expectations I wrote up above.
I think I'll repeat that last bit: I think most of the interesting combat that happens in WLD is a result of random encounters and Dungeon antics. If your players aren't bouncing off each other and the encounter table hasn't spit anything out an the inopportune moment, it'll probably get a bit boring. If they're huddling in different rooms after an argument about butchering the donkey and one group hears massive metallic footsteps in the night while the other doesn't have any weapons that can damage the Shadows that keep popping up every morning, that's a bit more interesting.

Anyway, tl;dr: you can only figure out how to challenge your party by actually playing out the averages before the fight. The easiest thing to do is just beef stuff up in whatever way feels right. If you accidentally go too far it will probably be obvious what the problem was. If someone's character dies due to a mistake then hey, it's a social game, you can all just agree to reverse it. If you want more specific suggestions we'll need all the data: character sheets and gear lists.

Though some have suggested adding more monsters, it's really not an effective tactic. As a non-stop dungeon, WLD is one of the only places you can almost absolutely rely on basic chokepoint and positioning tactics. This is never more clear than when the module gives you a bunch of melee monsters with all of two pitiable shortbows between them and you have a Warlock PC with a pit to hide behind.

Regarding the magic items: if you're willing to alter the monsters, you should be willing to alter the loot. The Darkskull and Unholy weapons were only placed there on the assumption that they would be useless to the PCs, so their effective value in the module is actually zero. Don't give the PCs any more items that are supposed to be worthless and consider stripping out the redundant gear that's scattered around specifically to make sure the PCs find something no matter what path they take, since they're not meant to fully search every region either (once again, unless you plan on dynamically upgrading every fight as they go, they should just move on when they've finished crossing the region). If they're headed north they should be coming up on the Halls of Flesh soon enough (unless they go to the Maze, but I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole from either side of the screen). There's a beast of an ooze boss there that can absolutely destroy equipment ("armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on a reflex save," from the standard Black Pudding), and it's right there in the module so you don't even have to feel guilty. With some luck it might be able to get the party back to reasonable wealth levels, otherwise you'll just have to starve them until they're back in line.

Speaking of progress: so they're in The Last Stand? Once they're past the Barghests it should be smooth sailing for any non-evil party. Let them wipe out the Barghests and move on the next area, either The Halls of Flesh or The Maze. The Halls have a pair of respawning bosses that should still be a threat regardless of their gear, as well as drow with fortifications which can easily be beefed up (the drow or the forts, including better casters if you're so inlclined [I like Warmages with Sudden Maximize for intimidation]). If your party is martial heavy then the fortifications should be annoying, if caster heavy then the SR should do the same. I haven't read The Maze as thoroughly, but most of it is Minotaurs which are beefy and could easily have some better armor slapped on.

[Kesnit]

That is far more clever than the googly moogly I was going to implement.


Thanks.


I'd also highly suggest abandoning the idea of clearing every single area.

I'm not forcing them to do everything in each area. That's the player's choice. They want to Roladex it.

What you'll need to do is pretty much just compare every encounter to the PCs and see how it goes. Take the damage per hit, multiply by the accuracy vs party members, get the number of rounds it takes to down a PC, and compare how fast the PCs can down the monster. Easy to calculate since each number on the d20 is worth 5%: hitting on 13-20 is 40%. And that's vs the characters that are supposed to get hit, back row characters are not the balancing point for AC. Just as you can eyeball the effective accuracy of attacks, you can do the same for spells and get a count on how many foes should be neutralized by save-or-X. The right buff spell can easily halve incoming or double outgoing dps, so you can still compare buffs to direct effects. Look at the fight from a couple tactical angles: I usually consider the most effective PC plan, the brute force PC plan, and the "we done messed up" PC plan (usually equating to ambush/preferred fighting ground/good spell matchups and winning initiative, straight brawling/blasting but still in proper formation, and finally losing formation and getting the squishes in danger). Depending on how hard the fight is supposed to be you can compare how many resources (usually spells, especially if out-of-combat healing is cheap so hp don't count, but also other abilities) they need to clear it without dying.

In theory this is 20% for EL=Party Level (assuming 4 members), up to 80% or more at EL=PL+4 for a truly even fight, though in practice an "even fight" is won by whoever makes it uneven in their favor and the winner will still have at least 50% of their resources remaining. Obviously the numbers won't be precise and the whole point of dice is to foul up those predictions, but if it's supposed to be an easy fight below party level then the at-wills (Fighters, Rogues, Warlocks, etc) should only need a lower tier spell or two's worth of help. A "challenging" fight should require a top-tier spell and a couple lower (as well as a shot of any class abilities with 2-3+ uses per day), while an even or worse fight will involve multiple buffs and hurling the best you've got until it drops.

Now I've just said all of that, but I never actually go that far. I just take solid monsters, make sure their CR and optimization level matches the PCs, check for problem areas such as giants or Maximize Breath one-rounding people, and go. When I ran Red Hand of Doom I modified almost every foe in the book, but WLD is using some very stock PHB terrible unoptimized builds. Since the whole point of WLD is that it's big and already done, my response was to run it straight: no help, no hints, just the players running into whatever the module had waiting and dealing with it on their own, including the map. Things went just fine for them after they got their footing with only a bit of a scramble finding anti-shadow weapons, until they ran into the ooze (mentioned below). In retrospect it probably was a bit boring. Most of the drama came from Trapped in a Dungeon antics and random encounters, but the actual scripted rooms were pretty blah. Which appears to be in line with the expectations I wrote up above.[/quote]

Thanks. That helped a lot.


I think I'll repeat that last bit: I think most of the interesting combat that happens in WLD is a result of random encounters and Dungeon antics.

I've been rolling a lot of "nothing happens." But I do have them freaked out about one section, where I happened to roll "you hear a loud growl, coming from all around you." It's nothing, but they don't know that! :smallbiggrin:


Though some have suggested adding more monsters, it's really not an effective tactic. As a non-stop dungeon, WLD is one of the only places you can almost absolutely rely on basic chokepoint and positioning tactics. This is never more clear than when the module gives you a bunch of melee monsters with all of two pitiable shortbows between them and you have a Warlock PC with a pit to hide behind.

As I said above, my players are good at using tactics. When they had a WIZ (poorly optimized, but still well built) and a Cleric, they had a lot of options. I managed to get lucky and kill the WIZ, so they lost all their arcane casting.


Regarding the magic items: if you're willing to alter the monsters, you should be willing to alter the loot. The Darkskull and Unholy weapons were only placed there on the assumption that they would be useless to the PCs, so their effective value in the module is actually zero.

The players did not get the Unholy weapon and I reduced the value of the Darkskull to 6000 (and changed it so it emits an aura of Evil, but nothing else). I am reducing the treasure they get to almost nothing.


If they're headed north they should be coming up on the Halls of Flesh soon enough (unless they go to the Maze, but I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole from either side of the screen).

I'm letting them go where they will. :smallbiggrin:


There's a beast of an ooze boss there that can absolutely destroy equipment ("armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on a reflex save," from the standard Black Pudding),

Oooo... That would be helpful.


Speaking of progress: so they're in The Last Stand? Once they're past the Barghests it should be smooth sailing for any non-evil party.

They knocked out one clan of Barghests and allied with the other. Now they are looking for the Celestials. They've seen a few (random encounters), but haven't found their bases yet.

[Fizban]

I'm not forcing them to do everything in each area. That's the player's choice. They want to Roladex it.
Well you could give them a "strong suggestion," but you also seem to be doing a much better job of staying "hands off" than I do so why ruin it?

Thanks. That helped a lot.
Glad to hear it. I've written a few forum essays on encounter balance but that's the most in-depth so far, I'm glad it made sense.

I've been rolling a lot of "nothing happens." But I do have them freaked out about one section, where I happened to roll "you hear a loud growl, coming from all around you." It's nothing, but they don't know that! :smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin: indeed. I never rolled that one (we switched games right after the ooze boss attack), but the heavy metal footsteps I mentioned (from the Marut) got my groups attention.

As I said above, my players are good at using tactics. When they had a WIZ (poorly optimized, but still well built) and a Cleric, they had a lot of options. I managed to get lucky and kill the WIZ, so they lost all their arcane casting.
Funny thing: did you notice the part where the intro says spells like "Web" are too strong, and then gives a wizard in the dungeon "Web?"

I am reducing the treasure they get to almost nothing. Oooo[ze]... That would be helpful.
Mwahahaha

Thanks for the progress update, I love hearing about WLD.