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Tyger
2007-06-10, 10:05 PM
Sorry if this is a completely newbish question, but I can't seem to locate the answer...

If a spell has a Fort save in its description, but it can target undead, how do they save? Is it just the base D20 roll? Or something else?

The spell in question, though I think the question is more general than just this spell, is Defenestrating Sphere from the Spell Compendium. I won't post its specifics for OGL reasons, but suffice to say failed Fort saves have a purely physical effect, so I see no reason why a zombie would be immune to them.

Any advice is appreciated.

The_Snark
2007-06-10, 10:09 PM
A Con score of - gives a bonus of 0. Undead have Fortitude saves just like everything else, they just aren't used as often; it should be in the stat block. If not, undead have poor Fortitude saves, meaning the save is + (1/3 the number of HD). Plus any other modifiers, like Great Fortitude or spells.

Tyger
2007-06-10, 10:13 PM
Doh...

*hangs head and walks quietly away, hoping that no one sees his shame*

Thanks. That's what I get for listening to another player and not grabbing my books. Bad gamer Tyger, bad gamer.:smallbiggrin:

The_Snark
2007-06-10, 10:15 PM
No worries, it rarely comes up. All I can think of offhand is Disintegrate and Defenestrating Sphere (but only because you mentioned it).

Jasdoif
2007-06-10, 10:34 PM
The general rule (well, a specific trait of the Undead type) is that undead are immune to any effect that allows a Fortitude save, unless it also works on objects or is harmless. Constructs have this trait as well. Specific effects can override this, as mentioned in their description, slaying arrows come to mind here.

(The inclusion of the harmless exception would make a lot more sense if the inflict line of spells allowed a Fort save instead of a Will save, but whatever :smalltongue: )

When they do need to make such a save, it's just like The_Snark said.

Logic
2007-06-10, 10:57 PM
Perhaps it is one of the exceptions or a houserule one of my DMs always used, but I thought that undead add their charisma modifier (if any) to their Fortitude save.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-06-10, 11:08 PM
Perhaps it is one of the exceptions or a houserule one of my DMs always used, but I thought that undead add their charisma modifier (if any) to their Fortitude save.

Nah, they just get a big bonus from being immune to all things that require fort saves (unless it also effects objects). It means in most situations they'll walk away unscathed, but the few things that will scathe them have a better chance of affecting them.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-10, 11:11 PM
But what about Concentration? It uses the Undead's Charisma score instead of Constitution score.

Logic
2007-06-10, 11:16 PM
But what about Concentration? It uses the Undead's Charisma score instead of Constitution score.

Maybe that is what I was thinking of. Thanks for clarifications.

Demented
2007-06-10, 11:19 PM
Though, exactly why Concentration would be important enough to undead to get their charisma score added to it, but not to Fort saves, is a mystery few will ever understand.

Jasdoif
2007-06-10, 11:21 PM
But what about Concentration? It uses the Undead's Charisma score instead of Constitution score.That's a specific trait of the Undead type.
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

There's that, and the MM says that when giving a special ability save DC that would normally be based on an ability the creature doesn't have (say, a ghoul's disease), it should be based on Charisma instead.

There's no blanket "use Cha for everything Con" in the rules that I could find. In fact, creatures lacking a Con score outright [i]fail[i] simple Constitution checks.

deadseashoals
2007-06-11, 05:33 AM
Though, exactly why Concentration would be important enough to undead to get their charisma score added to it, but not to Fort saves, is a mystery few will ever understand.

There's no reason for the latter. They're already immune to virtually anything that requires a fort save (disintegrate and polymorph any object being almost the only exceptions), and defenestrating sphere isn't even a core spell, so the only reason for such a ruling would be to make undead harder to disintegrate or offensively polymorph using polymorph any object.

Edit: Just read the spell, and defenestrating sphere does not read "Fortitude (object)", so undead are immune to it.

Green Bean
2007-06-11, 06:08 AM
Though, exactly why Concentration would be important enough to undead to get their charisma score added to it, but not to Fort saves, is a mystery few will ever understand.

One word. Lich...

TheDon
2007-06-11, 07:30 AM
All I can think of offhand is Disintegrate and Defenestrating Sphere

You've obviously never owned a mace a disruption :P

Tyger
2007-06-11, 07:37 AM
Edit: Just read the spell, and defenestrating sphere does not read "Fortitude (object)", so undead are immune to it.

Actually the spell is very specific that it can also effect objects. So no, undead are not immune to it.

Rules aside, that would make zero sense. The shambling, mindless zombie is unaffected by the wind that is strong enough to pick up the nimble little 24 Dex rogue and toss him out the window?

Aquillion
2007-06-11, 02:21 PM
It kinda makes sense that undead are often easy to affect with fort save effects that they're not totally immune to, though. I mean, they're shambling lumps of flesh... it makes sense that disintigrating them is easy. When you judge their constitution as an "object", they're really fragile.

Talya
2007-06-11, 04:43 PM
Glass Strike + Undead = ugly glass statues ripe for smashing.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-11, 07:46 PM
Smart Undead look for ways to get Mettle. "Fort/Will partial" becomes "Fort/Will negates", which helps increase their (un)lifespan greatly.:smallbiggrin:

DreadArchon
2007-06-11, 08:00 PM
Though, exactly why Concentration would be important enough to undead to get their charisma score added to it, but not to Fort saves, is a mystery few will ever understand.
Presumably they're supposed to be easy to whack with things requiring Fort saves. It goes with their whole "decay" theme, really, that their bodies are less capable of resisting effects that living organisms can often get through. They don't have the "spark of life" to resist falling apart. I like it.