Changeling racial emulation: Black blood hunter (TO)

[daremetoidareyo]

Can a changeling who has taken the racial emulation feat take the form of a lycanthrope in hybrid form or a lycanthrope in their animal form, where they still have the humanoid type?

Can they then take Black blood hunter?

Can they then use their totemist winter mask shaped to the totem chakra to deliver bite attacks in hybrid form that would have a chance to inflict lycanthropy?


"Greater Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): The DC of the Fortitude save required to avoid contracting lycanthropy from the character's bite attack increases by an amount equal to his black blood hunter level."

The chance of being inflicted with lycanthropy is 0. Does that mean that at black blood hunter level 10 that there is a DC 10 fort save against being infected?

Can I then bite myself with my totem, while racially emulating a dire warbeast primordial dungeonbred lion of legend in hybrid form (type: humanoid subtype: shapechanger), choose to fail the saving throw, and therefor be infected with the lycanthropy of my choice?

[DrMotives]

Lycanthropy isn't normally considered a race, but a template conferred by a supernatural disease and/or curse. So I would say, can't be emulated.

[Chronos]

A racially-emulating changeling does not have a DC 0 Fort save to inflict lycanthropy; they lack that ability entirely. If it were DC 0, then they'd have a chance to infect someone even without Black Blood Hunter, from a natural 1 on the save or a heavily-penalized save. You can't increase the DC of an ability that doesn't exist.

[Troacctid]

You do not gain any racial traits of the emulated race. Since you don't have any ability to deliver the curse with your bite attack, increasing the DC of the ability does nothing. (Similarly, taking Spell Focus does not grant you any new spellcasting ability.)

[daremetoidareyo]

You do not gain any racial traits of the emulated race. Since you don't have any ability to deliver the curse with your bite attack, increasing the DC of the ability does nothing. (Similarly, taking Spell Focus does not grant you any new spellcasting ability.)

You're right. I was just over excited.


Lycanthropy isn't normally considered a race, but a template conferred by a supernatural disease and/or curse. So I would say, can't be emulated.

I'm not so sure, seeing as how it grants a totally emulatable subtype and everything. This is a call for a DM but not necessarily outright non-RAW.

But while we're on this subject, assuming that you don't get an increase to your fake lycanthropy DC, let's take a look at the next thing in line.


"Animal Aspect (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a black blood hunter gains the ability to take on limited characteristics of his animal form while remaining in his humanoid form. Once per day, he can gain the Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution of his animal form without actually adopting that shape. In addition, his natural armor increases by +2. All these changes last for 1 minute per black blood hunter level. "

Assuming the DM allows a changeling to emulate a lycanthrope as a race, this one get's weird. The changeling does not in fact have an animal form of his own, but the type of lycanthrope he is emulating would. But then again, this is ripe for abuse, as the changeling can emulate one super high score. As a DM, I would limit the PC to lycanthrope forms that he has seen or limit the emulated form to the dire template. Any other templates on the animal part of the lycanthrope are not allowed. On the other hand, druids can do some wild stuff better than this at level 5. I'm asking because I'm building a monk build that uses almost every stat. And being able to self buff one of them way up there is a huge boon.

[Red Fel]

I'm not so sure, seeing as how it grants a totally emulatable subtype and everything. This is a call for a DM but not necessarily outright non-RAW.

Pretty sure it's a template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm), not a race. You know, given the following language:

"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The lycanthrope template can be inherited (for natural lycanthropes) or acquired (for afflicted lycanthropes).(Emphasis added.)

That's about as express as RAW gets.

[daremetoidareyo]

Pretty sure it's a template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm), not a race. You know, given the following language:
(Emphasis added.)

That's about as express as RAW gets.

That gets messy when the requirement for Black Blood Hunter stipulates "Race: any lycanthrope" and the ability of changelings to be based on the spell disguise self, which doesn't have the ironclad prohibition against templates that shapechanging rules have.

[Red Fel]

That gets messy when the requirement for Black Blood Hunter stipulates "Race: any lycanthrope" and the ability of changelings to be based on the spell disguise self, which doesn't have the ironclad prohibition against templates that shapechanging rules have.

Well, let's look at that for a moment.

First, the "Race: Any lycanthrope" comment. There is precedent for putting template requirements under the Race section of the prereqs. For example, look at the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC in Unapproachable East. Under Race, it reads:

Race: The character must possess the shadow-walker template, which is conferred by a special rite consecrated to Mask (see Chapter 6: Monsters of the East). Members in good standing of the Shadowmasters guild can arrange for the rite of transformation by gifting 2,000 gp to Mask’s temple in Telflamm; others must give at least 10,000 gp and perform a service of some kind for the clerics of Mask. A character who is not a shadow-walker can still qualify for the Telflammar Shadowlord prestige class, but he must meet the spellcasting requirement below.
Logically speaking, where else would you put a template requirement? So, I'd chalk "Race: Any lycanthrope" up to shorthand for "Must possess a Lycanthrope template."

Second, the Changeling disguise ability. It reads:

Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.
So, yeah, it derives from Disguise Self. However, if you're using Disguise Self as your basis, you receive absolutely no powers or abilities of the new race. It is purely a disguise, a change in appearance. So Minor Change Shape, alone, will not give you Lycanthrope abilities.

That's why you rely on the Racial Emulation feat. Here's what that does.

When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.
So, in other words, you can emulate a racial subtype to qualify for things.

Lycanthrope is not a type or subtype. Lycanthrope does not change the creature's type, but it adds the shapechanger subtype. As this is something a Changeling already has, there's nothing new there.

Your argument that the Changeling's Minor Change Shape ability does not preclude templates is irrelevant. Even assuming you could disguise yourself as a templated creature, Racial Emulation does not permit you to emulate a template. It permits you to emulate a subtype. So you could emulate Humanoid (Elf), Humanoid (Incarnum), or even Humanoid (Planetouched). You could not, however, emulate Humanoid (Lycanthrope), because no such creature exists.

[daremetoidareyo]

Lycanthrope is not a type or subtype. Lycanthrope does not change the creature's type, but it adds the shapechanger subtype. As this is something a Changeling already has, there's nothing new there.

Your argument that the Changeling's Minor Change Shape ability does not preclude templates is irrelevant. Even assuming you could disguise yourself as a templated creature, Racial Emulation does not permit you to emulate a template. It permits you to emulate a subtype. So you could emulate Humanoid (Elf), Humanoid (Incarnum), or even Humanoid (Planetouched). You could not, however, emulate Humanoid (Lycanthrope), because no such creature exists.


"Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example)."

The basis is on disguise self the spell. Which can allow you to disguise yourself as a templated creature. And although the clear mechanical benefit is limited to subtype changes. The quoted text above does leave wiggle room to fit the fact that you are "considered a member of that race for all other purposes."

Just because a section of text that renders a mechanical benefit is open to interpretation doesn't mean that it is purely fluff. Otherwise, considering how judiciously you read the rest of the text, you wouldn't have ignored that statement. My bet is that you're reading it conservatively. The part of the racial emulation feat that I am quoting is just as mechanically relevant to the discussion, as it is the basis of changelings being able to take substitution levels and racial classes, neither of which are explicitly condoned, but generally accepted as understood consequences of that sentence.

Telflamar racial requirement had a whole lot more explanation than was given for "race: ANY lycanthrope" (even one that is only a lycanthrope by virtue of a disguise self spell modified by a feat that allows them to be considered a member of that race for ALL other purposes). There is no reason to assume that that specific case is relevant to this specific case, especially in light to the deference we pay generally to "specific trumps general." I reckon, they list the "any" there in order to erase the division in afflicted vs natural lycanthropes, or to erase the division between weretigers or wereraptors. Unfortunately, RAW, changelings can be considered "Race: Lycanthrope" despite the intent of the authors to clear up the listed considerations.

This can easily fly in a very RAW or very permissive table. Where's curmudgeon the RAW stickler?

[DrMotives]

If you're dead set on doing this, the only way I can see it happening is emulating a humanoid or giant, and getting infected with lycanthropy. Then you'll qualify for BBH easy. I see nothing in RAW or RAI to imply that a lycanthrope that changes type loses the template, this is as valid as an undead lycanthrope.

[Jeff the Green]

I've used racial emulation a fair amount and am a fan, and I'll grant you that it lets you get into BBH. Race isn't well defined, and if lycanthrope didn't count, "Lycanthrope" would be under Special. I also agree that the subtype sentence and the "all other purposes" can (I'd argue should) be read as being separate. That is: when you disguise yourself as [race] you gain one of [race]'s subtypes and count as [race] for any other purposes. Not "you count as [race]'s subtype for any other purposes".

(You may lose the benefits if you stop disguising yourself as a lycanthrope, though, and you have to predict when you're going to gain the XP that will put you over the edge or remain a lycanthrope at all times in order to take the next level.)

But beyond that, nothing you said works.

"The DC of the Fortitude save required to avoid contracting lycanthropy from the character's bite attack" is not 0. It is ∅. You do not have one. It cannot increase. If D&D were a computer program, this would return a type error. The BBH ability doesn't give you a DC either.

Edit:

If you're dead set on doing this, the only way I can see it happening is emulating a humanoid or giant, and getting infected with lycanthropy. Then you'll qualify for BBH easy. I see nothing in RAW or RAI to imply that a lycanthrope that changes type loses the template, this is as valid as an undead lycanthrope.

Changelings are humanoids, so they can get infected normally.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you're dead set on doing this, the only way I can see it happening is emulating a humanoid or giant, and getting infected with lycanthropy. Then you'll qualify for BBH easy. I see nothing in RAW or RAI to imply that a lycanthrope that changes type loses the template, this is as valid as an undead lycanthrope.

Getting infected with lycanthropy would absolutely make it rules legal, without blowing a feat on racial emulation. What I'm after is finding a way to make spinemeld warrior viable. Getting +12 strength or con based on the lycanthrope that you emulate, in a rules legal fashion without resorting to bear warrior or berzerk, is the end goal.

[Chronos]

Entry into the class looks straightforward, to me. You can count as a member of a race for purposes of qualifying for things. If a class has a race requirement of "any lycanthrope", well, then, that's something you can qualify for via Racial Emulation.

Likewise, I can't see any RAW objection to getting the ability score boost. It's quite cheesy, but then, it's not even the cheesiest thing a changeling can do with their shapechanging ability.

[daremetoidareyo]

I've used racial emulation a fair amount and am a fan, and I'll grant you that it lets you get into BBH. Race isn't well defined, and if lycanthrope didn't count, "Lycanthrope" would be under Special. I also agree that the subtype sentence and the "all other purposes" can (I'd argue should) be read as being separate. That is: when you disguise yourself as [race] you gain one of [race]'s subtypes and count as [race] for any other purposes. Not "you count as [race]'s subtype for any other purposes".

(You may lose the benefits if you stop disguising yourself as a lycanthrope, though, and you have to predict when you're going to gain the XP that will put you over the edge or remain a lycanthrope at all times in order to take the next level.)

But beyond that, nothing you said works.

"The DC of the Fortitude save required to avoid contracting lycanthropy from the character's bite attack" is not 0. It is ∅. You do not have one. It cannot increase. If D&D were a computer program, this would return a type error. The BBH ability doesn't give you a DC either.
\.

We tend not to play with instantaneous level ups. Those are too ripe for abuse.

The Animal aspect ability is what I'm actually interested in. The other question about affliction DC's was just a possible bonus. If you can choose your lycanthrope, you can use your racial emulation and shapechange ability to choose different hybrid forms of lycanthropes, you can choose to be a beast of high constitution for stunning fist save DCs for one combat and then shift over to a different type of lycanthrope for a strength bonus to break bars in another context.

[Jeff the Green]

We tend not to play with instantaneous level ups. Those are too ripe for abuse.

The Animal aspect ability is what I'm actually interested in.

That doesn't work either. You don't have and animal form, even if you're pretending to be a lycanthrope.

[daremetoidareyo]

That doesn't work either. You don't have and animal form, even if you're pretending to be a lycanthrope.

But you aren't a "lycanthrope" in anything other than taxonomic terms. Lycanthrope is an umbrella term for were_____. Where the blank is a creature whose form can be shifted into. If you racially emulate a weregrizzlybear, you are a lycanthrope who can choose to change into a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear is the animal form that attached to your lycanthropic identity.

Again, the following textual bit


Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).

States that you are considered to be a werewolf when you disguise yourself as a werewolf, and therefor the "all other purposes" clause covers whether or not your "animal" form is something that you can exploit. This isn't the exact same as having zero animal forms versus having N/A animal forms. The animal form is an inherent part of the racial identity of a lycanthrope, hence their names being things like wererat or wereweasel. Although you cannot take the form of that animal by virtue of emulating the lycanthropic race, you can emulate the lycanthropic race enough to rely on this class feature to deliver the physical stats of the animal form that you cannot take.

[Red Fel]

But you aren't a "lycanthrope" in anything other than taxonomic terms. Lycanthrope is an umbrella term for were_____. Where the blank is a creature whose form can be shifted into. If you racially emulate a weregrizzlybear, you are a lycanthrope who can choose to change into a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear is the animal form that attached to your lycanthropic identity.

Again, the following textual bit



States that you are considered to be a werewolf when you disguise yourself as a werewolf, and therefor the "all other purposes" clause covers whether or not your "animal" form is something that you can exploit. This isn't the exact same as having zero animal forms versus having N/A animal forms. The animal form is an inherent part of the racial identity of a lycanthrope, hence their names being things like wererat or wereweasel. Although you cannot take the form of that animal by virtue of emulating the lycanthropic race, you can emulate the lycanthropic race enough to rely on this class feature to deliver the physical stats of the animal form that you cannot take.

Even assuming you are considered to be a Lycanthrope - an argument I still don't buy - you don't gain the abilities of the form you assume. You can merely be considered one to satisfy requirements. Racial Emulation does not give you an animal form. Anything checking your animal form returns a null value. It cannot call up the stats for an animal form you do not have.

Saying you can count as a Lycanthrope is a stretch. Saying you are treated as having an animal form is outright unsupported.