Awakened Animals

[kpenguin]

It's obvious that awakened animals are stronger than regular ones. How much, if any, should I add to their CR?

[Matthew]

Hard to say. Is there no guidance on this? I'm sure somebody must know the answer.

[Jack_Simth]

It's obvious that awakened animals are stronger than regular ones. How much, if any, should I add to their CR?
I don't think there's any official guidelines to it. The spell itself is pretty vague.

It gains a meaningful Intelligence score, which means it could potentially get skills retroactively - potentially; the spell doesn't say if it happens or not.

It changes type from Animal to Magical Beast - which changes it's BAB - except that many (far from all) type-changing templates say "don't recalculate" such things (the Half-templates in particular).

Rulings on those two will affect the CR change of the beasty significantly - as will the roll for the critter's Intelligence score (although that is primarily important when the DM rules on whether or not it gets retroactive skills).

[my_evil_twin]

If the awakened animal doesn't have any class levels, I wouldn't adjust the CR any. A smarter-than-the-average bear will still fight like a regular bear, although it might pick its fights more carefully. If the awakened animal uses its intelligence to maneuver circumstances to its advantage, such as with traps or allies, determine the CR of the mixed encounter.

Awakened animals' real strength is that now they can take class levels. If Yogi learns kung-fu, say, treat his monk levels as associated class levels, and increase his CR on a more or less one-for-one basis. Treat less synergistic classes as non-associated, which is +2 levels to +1 CR until the level is high enough that the bear who happens to be a sorcerer turns into a sorcerer who happens to be a bear.

[Stephen_E]

Looking at Winter Wolves, intelligent, and Dire Wolves, unintelligent, you have a +2CR for the same HD.

The Winter Wolf has Breath Weapon, Freezing Bite, Darkvision, immunity to cold, vunerability to fire, d10 HD, 2 good saves, +7 total physical stat mods.

The Dire Wolf has d8 HD, 3 good saves, +13 total physical stat mods, and 1 bonud feat.

The breath weapon is worth a +1LA on it's own, so it's worth at least 1/2 a CR. The rest pretty much balances out.
So I'd consider the mental stats boost = to about 1 1/2 CR, then you have to take into account the 2 additional HD they gain. These would obviously be class levels, so we're talking +2 HD = +2 CR.
Total we're looking around CR3 1/2.
Given that Class levels generally don't help animals as much as Humanoids I'd round that down.

Thus Awakened Animal = +3CR.

Note if you allow the animal to use improved unarmed strike, and give it Monk levels, I'd round up to +CR4. This would also apply if you allow the animal to wield weapons as a humanoid, ala Legendary Ape. If you give any animal with more than 1-2 animal HD class levels as pure casters, then you should either halve the CR bonus for class levels, or only count their CR from class levels, whichever gets the higher CR.

Stephen

[XBobbis]

Just thought I'd like to throw this in here, an Intensify Spell Awakened would be pretty insane.

A Tree with 36 in every one of it's mental stats? An Animal with 36 Int, and +6 Chr?

Not counting mechanics, as other players on the board can handle that better.

CR though...it really depends on the DM. I mean, a high int wolf isn't going to make it any harder to take out in melee or with spells.

[Jack_Simth]

If the awakened animal doesn't have any class levels, I wouldn't adjust the CR any. A smarter-than-the-average bear will still fight like a regular bear, although it might pick its fights more carefully. If the awakened animal uses its intelligence to maneuver circumstances to its advantage, such as with traps or allies, determine the CR of the mixed encounter.

Awakened animals' real strength is that now they can take class levels. If Yogi learns kung-fu, say, treat his monk levels as associated class levels, and increase his CR on a more or less one-for-one basis. Treat less synergistic classes as non-associated, which is +2 levels to +1 CR until the level is high enough that the bear who happens to be a sorcerer turns into a sorcerer who happens to be a bear.
Let's compare a Brown Bear to an Awakened Brown Bear.

The MM Brown Bear, courtesy of the SRD:

BEAR, BROWN
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+8) and bite +6 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +12
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track
Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

I'm skipping details on Improved Grab, and the racial Swim bonus for now. Mr. Brown Bear has 3 ranks in Listen, 6 ranks in Spot, and no ranks in Swim; 9 skill ranks, exactly what he's supposed to have for Int-2, 6 HD. Now lets Awaken him, and give Mr. Brown Bear an Intelligence score of 10, and a Charisma score of 10.

What happens? Well, he gets two additional HD, and changes type - he's now a Magical Beast; this changes his BAB from 3/4ths for an Animal to Full. He also goes from 9 skill points to 22 skill points (8 HD at 2 skill points per HD, 4 times that for the 1st HD); let's max out Spot and Listen. This also increases his saves. He also goes from a d8 HD to a d10 HD. He also gets Darkvision. Oh, and he also gets a stat boost (no feats, though) - Strength looks good:

Awakened BEAR, BROWN
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10+32 (76 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+16
Attack: Claw +16 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +16 melee (1d8+9) and bite +11 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Darkvision-60, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +13
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track
Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4?
Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

Same speed, same AC, better senses, better saves, better HP, much better attack, and a bit more damage. Mr. Awakened Brown Bear is strictly mechanically superior to Mr. Normal Brown Bear. Mr. Awakened Brown Bear can quite reasonably use tactics - such as target the guy in robes over the guy in plate. Are you sure they're the same challenge?

Now, if the theoretical "Awakened Template" doesn't recalculate skills, BAB, saves, and so on (other than the increased HD, which are treated as animal HD), then it's basically just an Advanced Bear - and per the improving monsters section, adding animal HD is +1 CR per 3 HD. So it's +2/3ds CR simply from adding "animal" HD. When you factor in the extra's for recalculating BAB, saves, skills, and so on, methinks it's worthy of a full +1 CR increase, at least.

[Yahzi]

A smarter-than-the-average bear will still fight like a regular bear,
Only in D&D.

In real life, an intelligent bear would be a zillion times more dangerous than an ordinary bear.

Real bears fight people like they are fighting bears; they roar and bluster and stuff.

Smart bears would know the person can't actually hurt them, and just charge in and squeeze their little heads like tomatoes.

:smallbiggrin:

[Yechezkiel]

Smart bears would know the person can't actually hurt them, and just charge in and squeeze their little heads like tomatoes.

:smallbiggrin:

They would have to learn this first... I'd say, they'd need to steal at LEAST a dozen picnic baskets.

[Arbitrarity]

Smart bears have high technology...

[Toliudar]

But not lasers.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Bears do have lasers if they believe fighters are underpowered.