[3.5]Core Only Arcane Gish

[gordomac]

So...

Hello guys, i'm new in the forum and in D&D. The reason i'm making a gish (and asking for your help) is because we died 3 times at the first session, and 2 at the second, then the DM finally said "no waking up in prision cells anymore, you died". Our group was composed by a rogue, a sorcerer and me as a druid at first session(all lvl 1, some people didn't shown up) and at the second one, those same character all lvl 2 plus a lvl 1 fighter and ranger. The DM said something about our group being too weak and it being our fault, so now i want to optimize that thing up AND survive the first levels. So I made the following character.


Graahand, dwarf fighter1 (aiming at lvl fighter2/mageX/eldritch knightX) Middle Aged, chaotic good

STR 13(14-1)
DEX 13(14-1)
CON 19(18+2-1)
INT 18(17+1)
WIS 14(13+1)
CHA 8(9-2+1)

Feats: Improved Initiative and Power Attack
Appraise 4, Balance 1, Bluff -1 , Climb 2, Concentration 4, Craft (Alchemy, Bowmaking, Gemcutting, Leatherworking, Painting, Trapmaking, Woodworking) 5, Craft (Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Metalworking, Stoneworking, Weaponsmithing) 7, Craft (Stonemasonry) 9, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist 1, Forgery 4, Gather Information -1, Handle Animal 3, Heal 2, Hide 1, Intimidate -1, Jump -4, Listen 2, Move Silently 1, Ride 5, Search 4, Search (Notice unusual stonework) 6, Sense Motive 2, Spot 2, Survival 2, Swim 2, Use Rope 1.

I'm pretty sure that i could change anything in the build aside from class and race, since we only played a quick introduction and got nowhere near a experience worth challenge. Even class and race is debatable since we did almost nothing. The backstory at the moment is basically an old dwarf with a good life, a lot of experience living as a commoner(all those crafting skills) who lost everything, and strive to become a wizard so he could maybe revert what happened with some reality bending.

PS1: some of the skills are not core, but we did our sheets at pcgen, so the gm does't seem to care about them.

thanks for the future replies guys, and sorry for bad english or formatting, just in case i made use of them.

Edit: I need optimization tips, just in case it wasn't clear. Just noticed that a didn't said it directly :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

Eldritch Knight is a trap. It requires too many Wizard levels, which gimps your nonmagical combat abilities, so you'll be mostly crap when it comes to swordplay. Full BAB isn't enough to make up for that.

The core rules don't really support a character who can effectively switch-hit between arcane casting and weapon attacks. The closest you get is probably Tenser's transformation, or maybe Assassin, or polymorph shenanigans.

If you really want to try Eldritch Knight, you need to make sure to have high physical ability scores—yes, even prioritized above your casting stat—because you simply won't be competent in melee otherwise. Barbarian is also a better entry class than Fighter: rage, fast movement, 2 extra HP, and 8 extra skill points are likely better than whatever feat you would be getting, and the armor and shield proficiencies are presumably irrelevant.

[Thanatosia]

Also, generally speaking, Gishes are something you play for fun, not out and out optimization. There are some very high op gish builds out there, but usually you do best to just focus on casting if you really want to power up. A fairly simple and pretty powerful way to build a gish is to just advance as a pure caster, and along the way pick up one level of spellsword and 5 levels of Abjurant champion as both are reasonable accessable Gish PRCs that do not cost any caster levels (as long as you dont try to progress beyond the first level on the spellsword).

[Thanatosia]

If you really want to try Eldritch Knight, you need to make sure to have high physical ability scores
I disagree that high physical ability scores are mandatory to a gish. Casters have so many ways to make their base physcial ability scores almost irrelivent, either by using shapechanging spells that flat out replace them, or spells like the Bite of <various werecreatures> line that does absurd stuff like +14 enhancement bonus to strength with mid level spells, or using a Thunderlance to just use your key casting stat in place of strength.

[paranoidbox]

So there's this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook), which I found pretty helpful.

As an aside, I'm not sure a DM who kills your characters TWO OR THREE times per session and then says "It's your fault, you're too weak" can be considered a good DM. I mean, playstyles are different at every table, but if I were a DM, I'd ease up on the lethality a little if I start noticing the PC's aren't really cutting it in my story. Just saying.

EDIT: I forgot you said this was Core, which means the guide I linked to might not really cater all that much to your needs, but maybe you'll still find it useful to get some tips and tricks from it.

[Eldariel]

Eldritch Knight doesn't require Armor Proficiencies and there's no real way to use Armor in Core in the first place. I'd go Ranger instead of Fighter; extra skill points and class skills are cool and you get a bunch of other boons - the ability to use Ranger Spell Wands such as Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Rapid Shot without prerequisite feats from level 2 (making you a solid archer until enemies are engaged in melee), etc. Being able to max out 10 skills from Ranger list should be really useful though and those will carry through with you.

Ranger 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight is okay (or Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight; makes little difference). It does pick up kinda late which is a pain but bearable. Eventually, if the game by some miracle went that long, you'd want to be looking at Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10 - this has Caster Level 17 getting you 9th level spells and BAB 16 getting you 4 attacks.

You have good enough stats to make something out of it overall. Though middle-age is kinda problematic with your stats, wrecking your physicals a bit - you can swing with it but it'll hurt. I'd also consider putting the 17 in either Strength or Dexterity as you'll have plenty of use for both. I'd go with Strength if fighting primarily in melee. 18 in Int. You'll survive with 16 Con but if you lack the hitting bonuses, you'll have a hard time until you get Polymorph (and you probably won't have the slots to be using it every fight until much later anyways, unless you get permanent Polymorph Any Object cast on you by an outside party). Dex also helps with the AC.


I'll have to re-emphasize: Gishes particularly in Core take a fair few levels until they pick up the steam and they'll never be as good as full casters. So don't expect to clean the floor early on. For the first level you'll mostly have to play by your warrior class and then play as if you were a slightly-behind caster. The combination will kick in later, around level 10 or so you'll be getting the first meaningful numeric advantages over pure Wizards in terms of physicals.

[GreyBlack]

First of all, speaking as a DM, I'm somewhat concerned as to what sort of DM tells the players that they're crap and need to go rethink their builds, and that it's their fault? In saying that, it's not something that you, as the player, have control over, so onwards towards gishing!

To be honest, your best bet for "Gishing" in 3.5 (Core Rulebook Only) is to go Bard. Yes, the bard, the ultimate class to gish in my opinion, as you are a 2/3 caster, 2/3 BAB, amazing skill points, and bardic music makes EVERYONE super-competent. Choosing spells like Summon Monster cause you to do wonderful, terrible things. Stat priority for the Gishy bard is cha > con > (str for melee bard or dex for ranged bard). Focus on buffing your teammates and yourself and you're set.

[AMFV]

First of all, speaking as a DM, I'm somewhat concerned as to what sort of DM tells the players that they're crap and need to go rethink their builds, and that it's their fault? In saying that, it's not something that you, as the player, have control over, so onwards towards gishing!

To be honest, your best bet for "Gishing" in 3.5 (Core Rulebook Only) is to go Bard. Yes, the bard, the ultimate class to gish in my opinion, as you are a 2/3 caster, 2/3 BAB, amazing skill points, and bardic music makes EVERYONE super-competent. Choosing spells like Summon Monster cause you to do wonderful, terrible things. Stat priority for the Gishy bard is cha > con > (str for melee bard or dex for ranged bard). Focus on buffing your teammates and yourself and you're set.

Eh, the bard doesn't have a lot of gishing support in Core, they miss out on Snowflake Wardance, and a lot of the things they can use to be competent at melee. I mean they'll be reasonably compenent, but not what I would call a gish. You can definitely build a bard gish outside of core stuff though.

[Troacctid]

I disagree that high physical ability scores are mandatory to a gish. Casters have so many ways to make their base physcial ability scores almost irrelivent, either by using shapechanging spells that flat out replace them, or spells like the Bite of <various werecreatures> line that does absurd stuff like +14 enhancement bonus to strength with mid level spells, or using a Thunderlance to just use your key casting stat in place of strength.

What spells? Polymorph? Eldritch Knights don't polymorph, or they would have gone straight Wizard. Same with Transformation. Alter Self doesn't change your ability scores. Bull's Strength is just generally bad for a multitude of reasons. Heroism and Rage aren't exactly efficient for their spell level. Greater Magic Weapon is fine, but it's a long time before it's better than just using an actual +1 weapon, and besides, it stacks with your ability scores, so you still want them high. Enlarge Person is a decent buff, but I wouldn't say it makes your ability scores irrelevant, and the short duration is problematic.

[AMFV]

What spells? Polymorph? Eldritch Knights don't polymorph, or they would have gone straight Wizard. Same with Transformation. Alter Self doesn't change your ability scores. Bull's Strength is just generally bad for a multitude of reasons. Heroism and Rage aren't exactly efficient for their spell level. Greater Magic Weapon is fine, but it's a long time before it's better than just using an actual +1 weapon, and besides, it stacks with your ability scores, so you still want them high. Enlarge Person is a decent buff, but I wouldn't say it makes your ability scores irrelevant, and the short duration is problematic.

Eldritch Knights DO polymorph. If you think that 6 points of BAB, Martial Feats, and build structured around combat doesn't make a difference when you're polymorphed, then there's nothing I can do for you... It's not more power than a regular wizard, but a heckuva lot better combatant when polymorphed.

[Curmudgeon]

The DM said something about our group being too weak and it being our fault, so now i want to optimize that thing up AND survive the first levels.
Is this the same DM who's restricting you to the three core books? If so, push back and say it's instead the DM's fault for restricting your build options.

[xyianth]

Does core only mean PHB, DMG, and MMI only; or does it mean SRD only?

I'm a little shocked that a party that contained a druid got wiped... did the druid not know what they were doing? I mean, druid is OMGWTFBBQ levels of power, especially in core games.

Assuming core only limits you to PHB, DMG, and MMI only, there are only a couple of options as far as optimized gishes go:

bard 1/fighter 1/bard +8/eldritch knight 10; acquire vest of legends; focus on archery; stat priority cha>con/dex>wis>int/str
bard 2/rogue 3/assassin 10/arcane trickster 5; acquire vest of legends; focus on archery; stat priority dex>con/int>cha/wis>str
wizard 2/rogue 3/assassin 10/arcane trickster 5; stat priority int/dex>con>wis>str/cha
If the entire SRD is open, there are lots of other options.

[paranoidbox]

I'm a little shocked that a party that contained a druid got wiped... did the druid not know what they were doing? I mean, druid is OMGWTFBBQ levels of power, especially in core games.

Well, a level 1 druid. At that level, everyone is more or less on the same playing field. ...Severe optimization excepted.

[xyianth]

Well, a level 1 druid. At that level, everyone is more or less on the same playing field. ...Severe optimization excepted.

At level 1, a druid has the ability to summon creatures that can 1-hit most CR 1/2 creatures, an animal companion that is a better fighter than the party fighter, and can wield a magic club that does 2d6+1 damage at str+1 to attack. Not to mention healing and medium armor. Only sleep casting wizards/sorcerers are more effective at 1st level in core only games.

[Troacctid]

Eldritch Knights DO polymorph. If you think that 6 points of BAB, Martial Feats, and build structured around combat doesn't make a difference when you're polymorphed, then there's nothing I can do for you... It's not more power than a regular wizard, but a heckuva lot better combatant when polymorphed.

If your plan were to Polymorph your ability scores into adequacy, you wouldn't have gone Eldritch Knight. (At least not in any game starting below level 19.) Nothing you gain from it is better than extra heads in hydra form.

Even if you do Polymorph when you get it, neglecting your physical stats in anticipation of it is like a Fighter dumping her physical stats because she figures the party Wizard will just cast Polymorph Any Object on her anyway. Sure, maybe he will, but that's not for another 13 levels, and in the meantime, she's going to be completely useless.

[AMFV]

If your plan were to Polymorph your ability scores into adequacy, you wouldn't have gone Eldritch Knight. (At least not in any game starting below level 19.) Nothing you gain from it is better than extra heads in hydra form.

Even if you do Polymorph when you get it, neglecting your physical stats in anticipation of it is like a Fighter dumping her physical stats because she figures the party Wizard will just cast Polymorph Any Object on her anyway. Sure, maybe he will, but that's not for another 13 levels, and in the meantime, she's going to be completely useless.

Point of Order you can Polymorph your physical stats into adequecy at level 7... Possibly 8. As far as gishing stuff goes that's pretty early start.

[Troacctid]

Point of Order you can Polymorph your physical stats into adequecy at level 7... Possibly 8. As far as gishing stuff goes that's pretty early start.

The earliest you can do it as an Eldritch Knight is level 9, which isn't for another seven levels--likely the majority of the character's adventuring career will be spent without it.

[Âmesang]

Any chance the DM will allow for the battle sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant from the d20 SRD? You'd have more hit points than the eldritch knight, the cleric's base attack bonus, proficiency in a single light or one-handed weapon, proficiency in light armor (and the ability to ignore its arcane spell failure chance)… but you learn and cast one fewer spell per spell level (I really hope these tables come out okay!):

Battle Sorcerer Spells Known


Level
0
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
4
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


3rd
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


4th
5
2
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


5th
5
3
1
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


6th
6
3
1
1
—
—
—
—
—
—


7th
6
4
2
1
—
—
—
—
—
—


8th
7
4
2
1
1
—
—
—
—
—


9th
7
4
3
2
1
—
—
—
—
—


10th
8
4
3
2
1
1
—
—
—
—


11th
8
4
4
3
2
1
—
—
—
—


12th
8
4
4
3
2
1
1
—
—
—


13th
8
4
4
3
3
2
1
—
—
—


14th
8
4
4
3
3
2
1
1
—
—


15th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
—
—


16th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
—


17th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
—


18th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
1


19th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
1


20th
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
2



Battle Sorcerer Spells Per Day


Level
0
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


2nd
5
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


3rd
5
4
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


4th
5
5
2
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


5th
5
5
3
—
—
—
—
—
—
—


6th
5
5
4
2
—
—
—
—
—
—


7th
5
5
5
3
—
—
—
—
—
—


8th
5
5
5
4
2
—
—
—
—
—


9th
5
5
5
5
3
—
—
—
—
—


10th
5
5
5
5
4
2
—
—
—
—


11th
5
5
5
5
5
3
—
—
—
—


12th
5
5
5
5
5
4
2
—
—
—


13th
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
—
—
—


14th
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
2
—
—


15th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
—
—


16th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
2
—


17th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
—


18th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
2


19th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3


20th
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5

[mabriss lethe]

In core you have 2 main directions you can take:

High magic: Act primarily as a beefy spellcaster. Go for as high a caster level as you can. Your main options will be either eldritch knight for added beef (at the cost of 2-3 CL) or going for a straight 20 level arcanist with an array of spells to turn you into a beatstick.

Low Magic: Your focus is less on spellcasting and more on combat. While a lot of people wouldn't call it proper "gishing" it's a viable tactic in core only. You rely on a handful of low level spells to give you an edge, or qualify you for PrCs. One of the beefiest you'll find in core is Dragon Disciple. Your casting will basically be just this side of non-existent, but you get nice ability score bonuses and a good selection of natural attacks. Other options involve bard or assassin builds, or with a loose enough definition, something like a horizon tripper.

[gordomac]

Does core only mean PHB, DMG, and MMI only; or does it mean SRD only?

I'm a little shocked that a party that contained a druid got wiped... did the druid not know what they were doing? I mean, druid is OMGWTFBBQ levels of power, especially in core games.

It's PHB, DMG and MMI only
And about the Druid part, my summons didn't 1-hit anything, I couldn't read the monsters sheet to see their CR though. The first time we almost died, my animal companion got killed while we ran away from a monster that was clearly superior than those other enemies. After that we got ambushed and ran alway again, they followed us and got we killed...but we woke up in a prison cell, after that, things got easier, but no more animal companion for me. He probably did something wrong with the CR. We actually had a sorcerer spamming sleep at level 2 too. But there is not much i can do about it, when i get a way to deal with it i will, maybe i could start DMing, but i need some experience playing before, those bad experiences might be even better.




I wanted to make a gish to play with an arcane spellcaster that did well in the begining, but you all seem to think that was a bad idea. The party needs an arcane spell caster, so anyone of those that have good survivability early-game is what i'm actually looking for.


(You guys think i should make a new thread?)

[xyianth]

Well it sounds like you knew what you were doing, so I will guess that your DM is throwing way too high CR enemies at you. A druid's animal companion is a CR 1 monster itself, if it got taken out easily then it sounds like you didn't stand much of a chance.

Normally, if survivability is the goal in core I recommend playing as a halfling or gnome druid with a riding dog animal companion and the mounted combat feat. If that isn't enough, a dwarven barbarian is the only thing that has more survivability at 1st level. That said, you really shouldn't require the absolute most durable character to survive at level 1.

[AMFV]

The earliest you can do it as an Eldritch Knight is level 9, which isn't for another seven levels--likely the majority of the character's adventuring career will be spent without it.

I guess if you'd call potentially less than half "a majority" I wouldn't. But that depends a lot on which game. It's certainly not "starting at 19th level" or even remotely close to that though. Also not all EK entries require you to lose a CL, and not all builds based around that do either. In core only you're looking at 9th level, but outside of Core, you could definitely get it by seventh or eighth. And 9th level isn't that late for gish builds, they tend to come online fairly late, so that's just part of the game for them.

[Eldariel]

Well, a level 1 druid. At that level, everyone is more or less on the same playing field. ...Severe optimization excepted.


At level 1, a druid has the ability to summon creatures that can 1-hit most CR 1/2 creatures, an animal companion that is a better fighter than the party fighter, and can wield a magic club that does 2d6+1 damage at str+1 to attack. Not to mention healing and medium armor. Only sleep casting wizards/sorcerers are more effective at 1st level in core only games.

The summons last for whole 1 round on level 1. That's unfortunately not very useful. The best a level 1 Druid can do is attack at range, sic the war-trained armored Riding Dog at 'em and Entangle, which is a ton but certainly not completely undefeatable for any given opponent.


The earliest you can do it as an Eldritch Knight is level 9, which isn't for another seven levels--likely the majority of the character's adventuring career will be spent without it.

It's still better than the alternatives if going for a Gish. Mostly Gishing in low level games is just being a caster who prepares more buffing-oriented spells, has some weapon proficiencies and has higher physical stats. Luckily on low levels, BAB isn't that important so you don't miss out on much. That one level of casting is huge of course but it's still on par with a Sorcerer. Certainly, Ranger 1/Wizard 6 is worse than Wizard 7, Druid 7 or Cleric 7 but it's not terrible compared to anything else in Core.

The assumption that the caster can do everything for you has the unfortunate problem that a caster's actions are limited. It's better to be able to have the caster lay down crowd control, debuffs, summons, buffs or whatever the situation calls for while you can handle your own buffing, combat mobility and such.


Assuming core only limits you to PHB, DMG, and MMI only, there are only a couple of options as far as optimized gishes go:

bard 1/fighter 1/bard +8/eldritch knight 10; acquire vest of legends; focus on archery; stat priority cha>con/dex>wis>int/str
bard 2/rogue 3/assassin 10/arcane trickster 5; acquire vest of legends; focus on archery; stat priority dex>con/int>cha/wis>str
wizard 2/rogue 3/assassin 10/arcane trickster 5; stat priority int/dex>con>wis>str/cha
If the entire SRD is open, there are lots of other options.

All of those are weaker than a simple Ranger 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10. If you want to be optimal about it, there's no need to go through multiple dips and there's definitely no reason to use Bard in a Core Gish build. Bard gets most of the stuff that makes it tick outside Core; a Core Bard, even leveled solely, is mediocre and dipping it gets you basically nothing. The best way to make do is to get access to the big Arcane spells you want ASAP (Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Invisibility, False Life, Blinking/Displacement, Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph and then it starts to get decent). The second-best is dipping minimal amounts of warrior classes and going into Eldritch Knight. Unfortunately Bards miss out on many key spells (Enlarge Person, Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph, Contingency, Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object, Planar Binding, Shapechange; also stuff like Blink, Keen Edge, False Life, etc.).

Eldritch Knight will still only be so good and it sucks that you'll have a hard time ever making it to caster level 20 without Strand of Prayer Beads (no Practiced Spellcaster in Core), but at least you get some decent personal buffs, eventual access to Shapechange (probably the best Core spell), Quickened True Strikes for your Spirited Charge, some Summons/Bindings, and overall, all the good being a Wizard gets you. And CL 20 isn't impossible; there's the option of entering Archmage for the last few levels, picking up Spell Power and using items to make up for the rest. Worse than a Wizard, but there are much worse places to be at than "Worse than the best" in Core D&D.



I wanted to make a gish to play with an arcane spellcaster that did well in the begining, but you all seem to think that was a bad idea. The party needs an arcane spell caster, so anyone of those that have good survivability early-game is what i'm actually looking for.

Such a thing as "good survivability early-game" doesn't really exist in Core. A single crit can kill anyone and even the best has only slightly higher chances to make it through alive. A simple Wizard is quite playable, and certainly would provide all you want. One of the best ways to rig the odds of survival in your favor is to Color Spray/Sleep/Grease the enemies before they get to act. Not always possible, but when it is, it can work. Reach weapon melee helps a ton too. In fact, if you do go Gish I do recommend that you should wield something like a Guisarme; it has the option of tripping enemies to prevent them from getting to melee attack range and you'll get attacks of opportunity in any case.

Getting new animal companions as a Druid is pretty easy, too. That's actually one of their big boons; they have an essentially disposable body (just don't think that way in-game, it's not very Druidy) that can take some of the unlucky hits for you. For level 1, the best Core classes IME are Druids, Wizards & Barbarians, with rest of the martials a bit behind (martial weapon proficiencies and +1 BAB to unsheath a weapon while moving are actually a big deal on level 1). Barbarians' bonus movement helps a lot as does the big HD, which is why I'd prefer them to the other warrior classes. However, in the long term a Wizard is probably interested in what a Ranger has to offer more. Druids and Wizards have great spells to disable multiple opponents on level 1, and Druid has the companion too. Wizard's spells are better tho. All of 'em are nice to have. Sorcerer has spells known problems at this point but he casts more than even a specialized Wizard with 20 Int (Gray Elf) so for spamming Color Spray, that's your choice.

[gordomac]

I guess I wanted the best arcane spell caster at the early game core, and gish wasn't a good option for this. Reading the replies it seems that the pure casters are better. I could think about making another druid too, but then the party would have no arcane character and 2.5 divine ones.

Wich class you think would be best to complete the following party at early game?

Human Paladin with great rolls (17, 16, 16, 14, 14, 14, spent in that order)
Halfling Rogue that seems to be thinking about multiclassing into something arcane (probably not going to)
Elf Cleric with, I think, good and lawful domains using a bow
Missing player without a character

So any class is an option, i just thought that an arcane spellcaster would fit better. What you think?

Edit: Maybe i should make another thread? The topic kind of changed :smallredface:

[Troacctid]

I guess if you'd call potentially less than half "a majority" I wouldn't. But that depends a lot on which game. It's certainly not "starting at 19th level" or even remotely close to that though. Also not all EK entries require you to lose a CL, and not all builds based around that do either. In core only you're looking at 9th level, but outside of Core, you could definitely get it by seventh or eighth. And 9th level isn't that late for gish builds, they tend to come online fairly late, so that's just part of the game for them.

I'm not aware of any Core entry to Eldritch Knight that doesn't involve losing a caster level. You can't take Martial Weapon Proficiency for every martial weapon. You can avoid dipping by playing a Tiefling, but the LA is just as bad or worse. You could try using Wish to gain proficiency with all martial weapons, but that's not a safe wish.

[ComaVision]

Any chance you can tell us what has been wiping out your party? I'm curious, and it may help us give better advice.

[DEMON]

To be honest, your best bet for "Gishing" in 3.5 (Core Rulebook Only) is to go Bard.

I'd actually suggest going full Cleric. Same BAB and full casting, not hampered by any type of armor.

And, eventually, you get to buff your BAB to full and still retain your spellcasting. Easy access to healing as well, which might come in handy in a game such as this (i.e. a game with players that are new to the game and tend to die a lot)

With core only and being played by a new player, I wouldn't fear the potential to break the game, either.

And even if the class for level 1 apparently cannot be changed, a single level of Fighter does not hurt the build at all in the long run (the selected feats are good).


I guess I wanted the best arcane spell caster at the early game core, and gish wasn't a good option for this. Reading the replies it seems that the pure casters are better. I could think about making another druid too, but then the party would have no arcane character and 2.5 divine ones.

Wich class you think would be best to complete the following party at early game?

A Cleric with Magic domain can step in a little bit for an arcane caster, but needs to buy the magic items. Buffing-wise this class is a good option for a "gish" (Magic and War domain).
Also. your Rogue might consider taking levels in Wizard and Arcane Trickster to help the party with arcane casting and could also scribe the scrolls for you. Or he could just use UMD and not multiclass.

[GreyBlack]

It's PHB, DMG and MMI only
And about the Druid part, my summons didn't 1-hit anything, I couldn't read the monsters sheet to see their CR though. The first time we almost died, my animal companion got killed while we ran away from a monster that was clearly superior than those other enemies. After that we got ambushed and ran alway again, they followed us and got we killed...but we woke up in a prison cell, after that, things got easier, but no more animal companion for me. He probably did something wrong with the CR. We actually had a sorcerer spamming sleep at level 2 too. But there is not much i can do about it, when i get a way to deal with it i will, maybe i could start DMing, but i need some experience playing before, those bad experiences might be even better.




I wanted to make a gish to play with an arcane spellcaster that did well in the begining, but you all seem to think that was a bad idea. The party needs an arcane spell caster, so anyone of those that have good survivability early-game is what i'm actually looking for.


(You guys think i should make a new thread?)

If there was a sorcerer spamming sleep, then there is an arcane spell caster. What is your current party composition and what are you fighting primarily? If someone is willing to play the sorcerer, you can always play CoDzilla. The alternative is playing a God wizard, focusing on controling the battlefield and buffing your allies.

ALTERNATIVELY alternatively.... there are some who will call me a heretic here, but why not just drop the spell casting entirelySTOPPOSTINGANDLISTEN! *ahem*

It sounds to me like you're going to need some early game survivability, as your DM is throwing you into what I affectionately call a "Dark Souls Campaign." As such, why not play something incredibly tanking and... not squishy? Human Barbarian, max out your constitution, take Improved Toughness (if your DM will allow it) and Power Attack. Assuming you start with a 15 constitution from the Elite Array, you'll start the game with 16 hp (higher if you get a higher constitution). From here, you transition into Blackguard, giving you half spellcasting and some awesome abilities.

ETA: Yes, I know that it's generally a bad idea to take improved toughness or toughness. However, in this case, it may be necessary just to be able to survive some hits coming his way. As such, why not just make this character into an unkillable monstrosity that can tank anything the DM throws at him?

[gordomac]

Any chance you can tell us what has been wiping out your party? I'm curious, and it may help us give better advice.

The first time we simply had no damage after my dog droped below 0HP, and the enemy was really too much, it was a ogre, but not the one in the monster manual, the DM nerfed it saying that "he is old and weak", but still too much, it was two weeks ago, so i can't remember exactly the problem. After our scape we got ambushed by lizardfolk, it was a random encounter rolled on d100, without spells, animal companion and almost no healed hp. We run alway, they followed us and killed us.

We woke up in a prison cell in the second session without any equipment and two new "party members".I summoned a monkey to steal the key, and a black cloud after that(dont know the spell name in english), the monkey throwed the key inside and the rogue swallowed it. We got beat up, they didn't found the key and the next day after some sleep the rogue...made our scape. we got our items and start dungeon crawling our way out of the prison, got hit by some traps, one lizard giant dude appeared and we killed him with some damage and a sleep spell to his little companions, our ranger missed everything, so did my summons and the rogue(he did hit some backtabs though), our fighter was okay, i couldn't summon a new companion inside the prison and the sorceress was just using sleep and mage armor. The fight that got us killed for good was against a lizard with 17AC, 4 lizards with 15AC and another one that made us roll fortitude to avoid stun every hit(couldn't tell his AC), we almost killed the leader(17AC) i think 3 of them failed the save against sleep, but all of them ended up alive, I runned and lost the initiative to one lizard in another room, the stun one, got a 1 in my save and died for good.

Just to clarify something, we didn't got killed that many times I said in the OP, i said that we died because we failed, half those times we ran away and the other half the dm made some excuse.

TL:DR 1º session: our only fighter was my dog, he died, we failed, then we failed again, then we died
2º session: we got another fighter but no dog, everyone missing the hits, the sorceress was useful with sleep, but once we got to the last fight she got only 2 uses, one to AC buff herself and another to sleep.


If there was a sorcerer spamming sleep, then there is an arcane spell caster.

This character will be played with another party, the composition was alread posted some time ago.

Sorry for the bad grammar, when i have more time i'll edit the post.

[GreyBlack]

The first time we simply had no damage after my dog droped below 0HP, and the enemy was really too much, it was a ogre, but not the one in the monster manual, the DM nerfed it saying that "he is old and weak", but still too much, it was two weeks ago, so i can't remember exactly the problem. After our scape we got ambush by lizardfolk, it was a random encounter rolled on d100, without spells, animal companion and almost no healed hp. We run alway, they followed us and killed us.

We woke up in a prison cell in the second session without any equipment and two new "party members".I summoned a monkey to steal the key, and a black cloud after that(dont know the spell name in english), the monkey throwed the key inside and the rogue swallowed it. We got beat up, they didn't found the key and the next day after some sleep the rogue...made our scape. we got our items and start dungeon crowling our way out of the prison, got hit by some traps, one lizard giant dude appeared and we killed him with some damage and a sleep spell to his little companions, our ranger missed everything, so did my summons and the rogue(he did hit some backtabs though), our fighter was okay, i couldn't summon a new companion inside the prison and the sorceress was just using sleep and mage armor. The fight that got us killed for good was against a lizard with 17AC, 4 lizards with 15AC and another one that made us roll fortitude to avoid stun every hit(couldn't tell his AC), we almost killed the leader(17AC) i think 3 of them failed the save against sleep, but all of them ended up alive, I runned and lost the initiative to uno lizard in another room, the stun one, got a 1 in my save and died for good.

Just to clarify something, we didn't got kill that many times i said in the OP, i said that we died mecause we failed, half those times we ran away and the other half the dm made some excuse.

Sorry for the bad grammar, when i have more time i'll edit the post.

Based on your description, spellcasters are going to get killed. "Linear fighter/Quadratic Wizard" is going to be in full effect, and playing a spell caster will get you killed quickly without support. Also, playing a gish is, "Playing the long game," and becomes viable long term. This game does not allow you to only be viable long term. You have to be immediately viable.

So, my recommendation stands. Barbarian 10/Blackguard 10. Main focus on HP/saves, primary stats are constitution, strength, charisma. In that order. Also, you get the potential to do a secondary debuff/fear build, hopefully reducing risk to your party.

[gordomac]

Based on your description, spellcasters are going to get killed. "Linear fighter/Quadratic Wizard" is going to be in full effect, and playing a spell caster will get you killed quickly without support. Also, playing a gish is, "Playing the long game," and becomes viable long term. This game does not allow you to only be viable long term. You have to be immediately viable.

So, my recommendation stands. Barbarian 10/Blackguard 10. Main focus on HP/saves, primary stats are constitution, strength, charisma. In that order. Also, you get the potential to do a secondary debuff/fear build, hopefully reducing risk to your party.


Hmm, so you think i would be better off going full martial? If i go that route what other options i have? I saw a lot of talk about tripper builds and stuff like that. And the party seems more tanky as a whole this time, maybe a spellcaster is not so bad this time.

[Eldariel]

Your party has 2 frontliners, one divine caster and one somewhat-divine-caster, and one skill monkey. By far the best complement for the party listed is a pure Wizard. He covers all the magic you don't have access to yet, as well as the skill area that's currently in the dark (Knowledges; yes, every one of you has some but nobody has the full set yet). He also gives your essentially 3 frontliners some key support spells (Enlarge Person for the warriors, Grease for the Rogue, future Invisibilities & al.) and the ability to deal with enemies like an Ogre (by far the best way to beat big brutes on low levels is to disable them with Color Spray/Sleep/Grease/etc. them allowing your frontliners to deal with them safely).

If you're playing with the whole Core, Gray Elf Wizard would probably be my choice (Gray Elves are in the Monster Manual; as normal Elves with added +2 Int, -2 Str). 12/16/15/20/13/9 with your current set of rolls: a superb setup far as Wizards go and a great complement to the party. 12/19/12/20/13/9 is also worth considering; high Dex gives you better Hide/Move Silently and higher Initiative. You can throw around save DC 16 spells, which are extremely difficult for most monsters to make at this point (if you target their weak saves; brutes = will, big things = reflex, arcanist/rogue-types = fortitude - tho your first good Fort-save spells are on spell level 3). Early on you double as an extra set of eyes with untrained +3 in Spot/Listen and you have decent Hide/Move Silently at +3 as well.


You can consider wearing some leather tho having a 15% arcane spell failure from Studded Leather does suck. You can also just carry around an unproficient tower shield and hide behind it and drop it when you start to cast. Mounts can also be used for cover. Either way, make sure you aren't getting hit; you aren't made to take hits on this level (essentially, level 1 is all about kill before you are killed; a level 1 Wizard with 20 Int has the best offense of any class on this level so you just need to make sure you get to use it). In any event, staying in the back and using your 3 bodyguards to protect you is your best bet for survival anyways - you'll probably be knocked into negatives if anything at all bigger gets to hit you. You can also get a familiar eventually; they can perform some scouting duties and such. Also remember the option of buying some animals/hirelings/etc. You don't want to be taking the first hits yourself if you can at all avoid it.

Finally, you're an Elf with good Dex and some Str so make it a priority to get a Composite Longbow to contribute while you aren't casting spells (starting gold can't afford it but if you get paid you can easily get one and win out a bit). You should also try and secure a few Alchemist's Fires for touch attacks when you can spare the gold (or craft 'em; you're a Wizard, you can do it).

On level 1 with 20 Int, you have 3 spells per day; 4 if you specialize (consider specializing in e.g. Conjuration or Transmutation; Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy and Abjuration are all possible bans with your party line-up, though it always hurts to lose some good spells; Evocation is the easiest but the other one is rough). Each of those spells is a DC 16 save-or-be-screwed (Color Spray, Sleep, Grease - Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement & Silent Image are some good non-save ones later). In addition, you can prepare Daze in your cantrip slots to trade actions at a DC15 Will-save vs. Humanoid opponents of low level. Damage-wise, you should just use whatever ranged weapon you have available; your spells won't do meaningfully more on level 1, and you get comparatively much more from big, encounter-ending spells. In general, Wizard's greatest talents lie in disabling (or eventually in the right circumstances, insta-killing) enemies and buffing teammates/himself.

[Troacctid]

Based on your description, spellcasters are going to get killed. "Linear fighter/Quadratic Wizard" is going to be in full effect, and playing a spell caster will get you killed quickly without support. Also, playing a gish is, "Playing the long game," and becomes viable long term. This game does not allow you to only be viable long term. You have to be immediately viable.

So, my recommendation stands. Barbarian 10/Blackguard 10. Main focus on HP/saves, primary stats are constitution, strength, charisma. In that order. Also, you get the potential to do a secondary debuff/fear build, hopefully reducing risk to your party.

I concur, except that I would add some levels of Dragon Disciple or Horizon Walker rather than going Barbarian 10. The diminishing returns on Barbarian are really harsh; you want to get out of it ASAP.

[GreyBlack]

I concur, except that I would add some levels of Dragon Disciple or Horizon Walker rather than going Barbarian 10. The diminishing returns on Barbarian are really harsh; you want to get out of it ASAP.

Problem here is the skills needed. Horizon walker will kill your skill points and won't get you in until you're ready for Blackguard, which may reduce survivability, same with Dragon Disciple (except you need spellcasting too). As is, you're cross-classing skill points to get in and you can't get in until level 8 via barbarian. By comparison, going to 10 Barbarian nets you DR2/-, Trap Sense to help you not die from traps, and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Another option, if you're so inclined, is to dip 3 levels for Ranger (later on, likely around level 5) to get Endurance for entry into Diehard. This can give you your Horizon Walker entry, though it does kill your survivability (d8 HD vs D12). I guess it's a YMMV, but I'd prefer 10 barbarian than 5 Barbarian/3 Ranger/10 Blackguard/2 Horizon Walker.

Though the Forest and Underground masterys from Horizon Walker might be worthy... ach. Again, your mileage may vary.

[Troacctid]

Either option would involve multiclassing, of course. Barbarian 2/Fighter 2 (or Barbarian 4)/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Blackguard 5 or Barbarian 2/Ranger 3/Horizon Walker 6/Blackguard 9. The increase in saves more than makes up for the smaller hit dice.

DR 2/- is nothing, Trap Sense sucks, and Improved Uncanny Dodge is meh. Barbarian class features are almost all junk.

[stanprollyright]

Your party has 2 frontliners, one divine caster and one somewhat-divine-caster, and one skill monkey. By far the best complement for the party listed is a pure Wizard. He covers all the magic you don't have access to yet, as well as the skill area that's currently in the dark (Knowledges; yes, every one of you has some but nobody has the full set yet). He also gives your essentially 3 frontliners some key support spells (Enlarge Person for the warriors, Grease for the Rogue, future Invisibilities & al.) and the ability to deal with enemies like an Ogre (by far the best way to beat big brutes on low levels is to disable them with Color Spray/Sleep/Grease/etc. them allowing your frontliners to deal with them safely).

If you're playing with the whole Core, Gray Elf Wizard would probably be my choice (Gray Elves are in the Monster Manual; as normal Elves with added +2 Int, -2 Str). 12/16/15/20/13/9 with your current set of rolls: a superb setup far as Wizards go and a great complement to the party. 12/19/12/20/13/9 is also worth considering; high Dex gives you better Hide/Move Silently and higher Initiative. You can throw around save DC 16 spells, which are extremely difficult for most monsters to make at this point (if you target their weak saves; brutes = will, big things = reflex, arcanist/rogue-types = fortitude - tho your first good Fort-save spells are on spell level 3). Early on you double as an extra set of eyes with untrained +3 in Spot/Listen and you have decent Hide/Move Silently at +3 as well.


You can consider wearing some leather tho having a 15% arcane spell failure from Studded Leather does suck. You can also just carry around an unproficient tower shield and hide behind it and drop it when you start to cast. Mounts can also be used for cover. Either way, make sure you aren't getting hit; you aren't made to take hits on this level (essentially, level 1 is all about kill before you are killed; a level 1 Wizard with 20 Int has the best offense of any class on this level so you just need to make sure you get to use it). In any event, staying in the back and using your 3 bodyguards to protect you is your best bet for survival anyways - you'll probably be knocked into negatives if anything at all bigger gets to hit you. You can also get a familiar eventually; they can perform some scouting duties and such. Also remember the option of buying some animals/hirelings/etc. You don't want to be taking the first hits yourself if you can at all avoid it.

Finally, you're an Elf with good Dex and some Str so make it a priority to get a Composite Longbow to contribute while you aren't casting spells (starting gold can't afford it but if you get paid you can easily get one and win out a bit). You should also try and secure a few Alchemist's Fires for touch attacks when you can spare the gold (or craft 'em; you're a Wizard, you can do it).

On level 1 with 20 Int, you have 3 spells per day; 4 if you specialize (consider specializing in e.g. Conjuration or Transmutation; Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy and Abjuration are all possible bans with your party line-up, though it always hurts to lose some good spells; Evocation is the easiest but the other one is rough). Each of those spells is a DC 16 save-or-be-screwed (Color Spray, Sleep, Grease - Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement & Silent Image are some good non-save ones later). In addition, you can prepare Daze in your cantrip slots to trade actions at a DC15 Will-save vs. Humanoid opponents of low level. Damage-wise, you should just use whatever ranged weapon you have available; your spells won't do meaningfully more on level 1, and you get comparatively much more from big, encounter-ending spells. In general, Wizard's greatest talents lie in disabling (or eventually in the right circumstances, insta-killing) enemies and buffing teammates/himself.

^This. If you still must gish, dip Fighter or whatever and go into Eldritch Knight.

[AMFV]

I'm not aware of any Core entry to Eldritch Knight that doesn't involve losing a caster level. You can't take Martial Weapon Proficiency for every martial weapon. You can avoid dipping by playing a Tiefling, but the LA is just as bad or worse. You could try using Wish to gain proficiency with all martial weapons, but that's not a safe wish.

Aasimar, LA buyoff. Both technically considered core, although not really applicable in this case.

Aasimar without LA buyoff certainly would work though. I mean you'd still get slightly slower progression, as far as the starting point goes (but such is the fate of gishes)

[Troacctid]

LA buyoff is a variant rule from Unearthed Arcana, which is not a core rulebook.

[AMFV]

LA buyoff is a variant rule from Unearthed Arcana, which is not a core rulebook.

Well outside of this particular thread "Core Only" typically means, things contained within the SRD. Which does have a LA buyback.

In any case my point still stands given a standard number of encounters to level (as D&D does) level 9 is hardly done with "the majority" of an adventurer's career. Also there are options to make things work out just fine before that. I mean prior to that, you're just a nearly full caster, which is good enough for almost anything. Then at level 9 you become better at melee than even dedicated fighters. I wouldn't call that a bad choice, I mean it's not as optimal as a standard Wizard granted, but it's certainly not as suboptimal as one could go. Or even in that ballpark.

[Curmudgeon]

Well outside of this particular thread "Core Only" typically means, things contained within the SRD. Which does have a LA buyback.
Two points:

"Core" means from those sources labeled "CORE RULEBOOK" on the front cover.
The official SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) still doesn't contain any material from Unearthed Arcana, which is where the LA buyback rules are located. Much Unearthed Arcana content is also released as Open Gaming Content, but it's not part of the SRD.

[Troacctid]

In any case my point still stands given a standard number of encounters to level (as D&D does) level 9 is hardly done with "the majority" of an adventurer's career.
There is a very good chance it will be, since most campaigns do not run all the way to level 20.


I mean prior to that, you're just a nearly full caster, which is good enough for almost anything.
The problem is that it tricks you into thinking you are supposed to fight with a weapon when actually, you are supposed to play as if you were a normal Wizard who, for no particular reason, happens to be a level below the rest of the party. Most players will not jump to the latter playstyle; they will assume that fighting with a weapon is a thing that they are supposed to be able to do competently. (Case in point, notice that the OP's character took Power Attack, a standard feat for melee fighters that is basically worthless on a Wizard, as his Fighter bonus feat.) Hence why it's a trap: it promises to help you blend spell and sword, but in actuality, the entry requirements nerf your swording abilities into the ground, leaving you as a Wizard with two senselessly self-inflicted dead levels. The fact that Wizard is a powerful enough class to function even with two senselessly self-inflicted dead levels doesn't make Eldritch Knight any less of a trap.

Now, you can make it work outside Core, obviously, but when it was first printed, it was totally a trap.

[eggynack]

Your situation is kinda weird here, because typically, if someone were like, "I wanna play a core only arcane gish, particularly at low levels," my usual response would be, "Well, it's not technically arcane, but a druid is probably the best way to fuse magic and beatstickery in core, especially at those low levels. Maybe a cleric, but the lack of DMM hinders that a bit." And then, critically, the major decision point would be whether to go with the closer to theme eldritch knight plan, or the significantly more powerful divine caster plan.

Because, seriously, if your plan here is to somehow raise your power by playing a wizard with two or three fewer caster levels than the same leveled druid, then your plan is rather doomed to failure, especially at low levels. The druid at level two is probably already more powerful than the wizard at level two, so mixing that with crappy fighter and eldritch knight stuff puts you way behind. Which is fine, mind you, but not if you're doing it because you want to optimize, and especially not if you're trying to optimize with an eye to low level survivability. That's basically the druid's whole shtick.

The critical thing to keep in mind here is that, while your druid wasn't able to make the difference between failure and success, the gish in that scenario would almost certainly do worse. So, my advice is pretty simple. Call forth a new riding dog, because that's a thing you can do, and put some barding on it. Prepare the traditional druidic array of low level spells, typically some detect magic, cure minor, and create water as orisons, and a bunch of entangle with maybe some obscuring mist and produce flame as befits your needs. Stand behind the riding dog, and pick up a sling, backing up the dog's high potency tanking/face-biting prowess with the occasional spell and a lot of sling bullets. And maybe occasionally summon a wolf meat shield, but don't expect it to defeat anything single handed. SNA I is a decent spell, but it's not great like some later spells in the line are.

Cause the thing of it is, that strategy, assuming you adapt it for books added, is quite possibly the most powerful and adaptive low level strategy in the game, leaving aside the very heights of cheese (and keeping in mind that one of the adaptations of the plan for more books includes greenbound summoning). It's not going to beat everything in the universe, and it doesn't quite have the non-combat utility of a wizard tossing around silent image and other wacky spells, but it's going to beat more things than just about anything you could put together in this environment. If ya want more info on the class, you can check the handbook in my sig, but the class isn't quite the ridiculous stack of complexity in core that it is outside.