Why is the saint template only for good?

[Th3N3xtGuy]

I know D&D largely is based around being the "good guys" but the word Saint isn't synonymous with being good, just likeness to god. Which in D&D there are A LOT of "gods". So you could be a evil, good or even neutral just be the epitome of your gods morality.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Good question.

I mean, if you can play as "Skullflame, paladin of chaotic-evil" or "Brefas, the urban druid", why can't you play as "Saint Dentata, devoted servant of Lolth"?

[torrasque666]

Because the word Saint comes from an old word for Holy, which in D&D is distinctly tied to Good. As is Sacred, which is another root of the word.

Best reasoning I can come up with. Other than that, it was a word created by the christian church to recognize those who acted in such a way as to emulate the works of their savior, who is pretty much the Big Good in their mythology.

[DrMotives]

This sounds like asking why a game that had the BoVD with player options still released Dragonborn of Bahamut without a Dragonborn of Tiamat. A bunch of the design team wants to keep it a game of heroic fantasy, ignoring the large player base that likes to mix it up by playing villains sometimes (or all the time, for some players).

[torrasque666]

This sounds like asking why a game that had the BoVD with player options still released Dragonborn of Bahamut without a Dragonborn of Tiamat. A bunch of the design team wants to keep it a game of heroic fantasy, ignoring the large player base that likes to mix it up by playing villains sometimes (or all the time, for some players).
They did. They're literally called the Spawn of Tiamat. They technically came first, according to MM4. Though while Dragonborn of Bahamut are reborn by Bahamut, Dragonspawn are born in the first place either by Tiamat or her chosen. They really went for the counterpoints with those two.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

This sounds like asking why a game that had the BoVD with player options still released Dragonborn of Bahamut without a Dragonborn of Tiamat. A bunch of the design team wants to keep it a game of heroic fantasy, ignoring the large player base that likes to mix it up by playing villains sometimes (or all the time, for some players).

Guilty as charged either neutral or evil. If I want to be a good guy I'd go outside and do good that matters.

Edit: Well misguided chaotic good sometimes.

[tyckspoon]

There's no real reason you couldn't have saints as exemplars of other religions or alignments, but you'd need to figure out either an appropriately restrictive code of behaviour for them or modify the LA; it's artificially low for the template as printed because it requires the Saint player to hold to an absurdly high standard of behavior (something on the order of Paladins -> normal Exalted Good -> Saints.)

[Ellowryn]

If you really want the Saint template for other alignments then you can pretty easily just refluff it. Evil is easiest as you just find the opposite of the abilities (such as the DR, spells, bonus damage, etc) and swap them while switching the required exalted feats to vile. Chaos/Law is a little more difficult as there are no inherit feats that preclude these alignments but it is still doable.

[T.G. Oskar]

Probably to compensate for all the stuff Evil got on the Book of Vile Darkness. The Ur-Priest for easy access to divine magic and the Disciple of Dispater for ultra crit-fishing; some of the weapon enhancements from the MIC like Cursespewer emerged from here, and the sacrifice mechanic for item creation, to give some examples, can be easily exploited by mechanic-savvy people. In equal regard, you have stuff like the Saint, the Vow of Poverty, the Starmantle Cloak, the Soulfire armor enhancement and others on the Book of Exalted Deeds to compensate.

That said, there's precedence of stuff that appears in both books but are counterparts of each other: the Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness, the Apostle of Peace/Ur-Priest (to an extent; both offer fast progression of divine magic, but the Apostle's version is more limited), the Sacred Vow and the vows vs. the Deformity feats, Exalted feats vs. Vile feats, some spells outright cross-referencing each other (Soul's Treasure Lost vs. Restore Soul's Treasure), so it shouldn't be difficult to create a mechanical counterpart for the Saint...that is, if that's what you're looking for.

Which begs the question: what's the real problem with the Saint template being good? Is it fluff-wise (you disagree with the term "saint" being specific to Good, rather than religion), or is it mechanical (the template is AWESOME for anybody, but you have to be specifically good to get it)?

[Uncle Pine]

An extremely virtuous person.
My guess is that whenever the creators built a new game mechanic, they didn't necessarily do it to balance out the options different character archetypes had. "Carbon copying a Good or Evil class/feat/template/magic item and slapping a different descriptor on it" is the exception, not the rule: if I feel like my game needs an evil cult specialized in skinning opponents with its own PrC and The Damn Crab, I'm not forced to add a good cult of people that only skin evil people and a nasty mammal monster (The Damn Ferret?) to compensate.

[OldTrees1]

I know D&D largely is based around being the "good guys" but the word Saint isn't synonymous with being good, just likeness to god. Which in D&D there are A LOT of "gods". So you could be a evil, good or even neutral just be the epitome of your gods morality.

As others have said, the word saint does imply good in the virtuous and holy sense of the word (regardless about whether specific people IRL live up to that title). An epitome of another alignment would us another word(just as the rulers of the nine hell's don't go around calling themselves anarchists).

[Ruethgar]

But the virtues of an Evil religion would be different from those of a Good. One might be the epitome of virtue for being greedy, and silent, with sticky fingers while considered immoral for being charitable and eschewing material goods.

[nedz]

Because having a Holy Touch and an aura of Magic Circle against Evil would look bad on a bad guy.

There's probably an equivalent Evil template, well there is Sanctified I suppose — but that's probably not what you are looking for.

[Red Fel]

But the virtues of an Evil religion would be different from those of a Good. One might be the epitome of virtue for being greedy, and silent, with sticky fingers while considered immoral for being charitable and eschewing material goods.

Here's the thing, though. The respective virtues of Good and Evil may vary, but cosmically speaking, Good is Good and Evil is Evil. In the D&D cosmology, these are concrete and specific things.

You'll notice that, among the types of bonus that exist, are "Sacred" and "Profane" bonuses. "Sacred" bonuses are "Holy" - they are cosmically Good in charge. "Profane" bonuses are "Unholy" - they are cosmically Evil.

You could argue that something could be Sacred to an Evil deity, and therefore be Evil. In a logical world, you would be right. But this is D&D, check your logic at the door; something "sacred" to an Evil deity isn't Sacred, it's Profane.

So, we have the Saint, which is suffused with Holy power. Evil does not wield Holy power. This is explicit. Read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy).
A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.
Similarly, "Unholy" is explicitly Evil, and must not be wielded by Good. This is despite the fact that what is Unholy to a Good deity would logically be Holy to an Evil deity, and vice-versa. What'd I tell you about logic again?

Point is, Saint is presented as super-Holy, empowered by Holiness. You can't be the Saint of an Evil deity, because Evil isn't Holy, and cannot be. Could you create an Evil equivalent? Sure. Nice thing about Good and Evil is it's easy to adjust when you switch the descriptors. But do you really want that on a PC?

Are you hep to my jive?

[Necroticplague]

Being a saint has nothing to do with gods. It's about being a paragon of good. Presumably, an evil equivalent to a saint exists, as a paragon of the various virtues of evil. They simply didn't bother to make the the stats because BOVD was already out, so that ship had sailed. Wouldn't be hard to home brew, though.

[Jowgen]

Everything Red Fel said.

Also, the nature of the Saint template ties into the concept of Good in more ways than just typing and descriptors. All its granted benefits reflect the nature of Good.

This is mainly seen in how defensive and selfless the template is. You gain a slew of immunities, Wis to AC, an aura that helps shield yourself + allies against evil things, and an ability that helps with "talking things out". All the SLA's are minor boosts to freely give. The only offensive elements are the +2 to save DCs and the fact that Holy Power works on both attack and when being attacked.

Evil, in general, greatly favors offense and selfishness. An evil equivalent to Saint ought to grant abilities that aid in killing and dominating enemies, quite possibly at the expense of "allies". Evil things wouldn't have protective auras any more than paladins of tyranny get aura's of courage.

In my opinion, the closest thing to an evil version of Saint would be Lolth-touched. Just as becoming a saint requires some sort of powerful good-aligned sponsor, Lolth-touched requires the direct blessing of Lolth. The second-closest thing would be the elder-evil worshiping benefits, although in practice those are closer to Vow of Poverty.

[Necroticplague]

The second-closest thing would be the elder-evil worshiping benefits, although in practice those are closer to Vow of Poverty.

That's because most of the feats you get from that are in the Willing Deformity line, the Vile equivalent to the Sacred Vow line (which VoP is part of).

Which kinda raises an interesting point to someone who might wanna make an Evil Saint: how one shows devotion to Evil and Good are different. When you're Good, you restrict you're actions. "Celestial patrons, in exchange for not drinking any alcohol, I request resistance to any poisons that may befall me." When you're evil, you permanently modify yourself to show your devotion. Your sacrifice is a one-off and done. "I horribly disfigure my appearance, and I want you to make sure people find it properly fearful." "I put out an eye in exchange for you, my fiendish patron, granting the remaining one some supernatural power".

[Red Fel]

Which kinda raises an interesting point to someone who might wanna make an Evil Saint: how one shows devotion to Evil and Good are different. When you're Good, you restrict you're actions. "Celestial patrons, in exchange for not drinking any alcohol, I request resistance to any poisons that may befall me." When you're evil, you permanently modify yourself to show your devotion. Your sacrifice is a one-off and done. "I horribly disfigure my appearance, and I want you to make sure people find it properly fearful." "I put out an eye in exchange for you, my fiendish patron, granting the remaining one some supernatural power".

Or, to put it another way, Good constantly demands that you conform and restrict your actions, thoughts, and behaviors. Sacred Vows are about forswearing certain things, suppressing or abandoning aspects of who you are.

Evil demands that you do precisely the opposite. Let your nasty little inside out. Willing Deformities aren't about making a sacrifice; they're about expanding your options, not narrowing them. Eat until you are grotesque! Wrench your limbs until none can evade your grasp! Hone your fingertips until they bleed, and people will fear your wicked talons!

Good asks you to suppress who you are. Evil demands that you embrace it.

[gooddragon1]

I must dry my crocodile tears at this unbalanced design bias in favor of good alignments.

[T.G. Oskar]

Good asks you to suppress who you are. Evil demands that you embrace it.

So basically, if your nature is to give your life for the sake of others, you're Evil?

Good embraces the concept of sacrificing what's valuable for you for the sake of others, and to realize that what you're giving up is something that a) you might not really need (alcohol? Not necessary. Intercourse? Necessary for procreation, unless you're the kind that follows Lastai, because...yeah. Food? You can eventually become a breathatarian, even stopping the need to breathe when you're fully perfected), and b) can eventually enslave you (there's a reason Lust and Gluttony are considered Cardinal Sins ;P)

Evil, on the other hand, invites you to embrace not necessarily what you are, but mostly base impulses that eventually become corrupted. Note that Evil often demands greater and greater acts, which become worse and worse until eventually...well, it depends on your way of thought. Let's just say that the "Sacrifice" component in the Book of Vile Darkness requires sacrificing others, rather than yourself, which is the antithesis of what Evil represents.

That also reminds me: there IS a counterpart to Saint. IIRC, it's called "Corrupted by the Abyss" or something, and it basically grants a lot of physical boons (including either fast healing or regeneration), but it cannot be granted to PCs; the moment you get that template, you become an NPC (same as when, in Storyteller/Storytelling System games like Vampire, Werewolf or Mage, you go the lower end of your morality stat). I recall having seen it on the BoVD and then reworked in Heroes of Horror as part of the Taint mechanic.

Law and Chaos also technically have their specific feats...if you allow yourself to be tainted by Evil: Devil-Touched and Abyssal Heritor are mutually exclusive (to a point) and represent Law and Chaos to an extent (though more Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil). They just don't have the equivalents to Saint/Corrupted by the Abyss.

[Snowbluff]

Good asks you to suppress who you are. Evil demands that you embrace it.

This is literally the opposite of DnD, since some critters are naturally good.

That being said, evil is a bit more self-aware than "Oh man I'm good guy, look at all of the helping I'm doing," while his village burns and his tax returns are left undone.