How would you build a tier 1 - 2 fighter

[Rebel7284]

Hello all,

How would you build a tier one or tier two fighter?

Background: After seeing a thread about the best party composition, I have thought long and hard about how I would make a party with stereotypical roles all be in my favorite tier - tier 1.

To me, this party consists of the following:
Arcane Caster - StP Erutide OR Wizard-> Incantatrix
Divine Caster - Archivist
Trapfinder - Artificer
Tank - ???

So far, the best I have come up is wildshape focused Druid, but I am wondering if I am missing any interesting alternatives.

Bonus points:
- Simplicity: All the other roles are filled by single classed characters, so ideally the fighter would have minimal dipping/PrCing
- Int focus: seems like it would make a nice subtheme if everyone was focused on Int. Then everyone can take Fairy Mysteries initiate for a party with the BEST morning ritual! :D

[Troacctid]

I would probably use Cleric/Ordained Champion. (You don't really need Ordained Champion, it's just nifty.)

[Vaz]

Wizard 20. Refluff.

[Mystral]

Tier 1 don't tank.

[Ellowryn]

A Druid going into Planar Shepard would probably fill that role nicely as if nothing else their animal companion is a free meatshield plus you get the brokeness of Planar Shepard.

[Twurps]

Tank isn't really a staple role in D&D. As for melee combat: the classic tier 1 is the druid bear, riding a bear, summoning bears.
A DMM persist cleric, with a few dips for extra turning pools can be very potent as wel.

Guess what I'm saying is: CoDzilla is a thing for a reason.

[Arael666]

You do realize that the tier system is NOT a measurement of power, but versatility, right?

[sleepy hedgehog]

Maybe a psychic warrior?
Though, I'm not sure if you can quite get him up to tier 1.

[Telonius]

Probably Cleric 9/Cancer Mage 1/Whatever 10. Cleric for the nice self-buffs and Divine Metamagic shenanigans, Cancer Mage for Festering Anger abuse.

[Bucky]

Tier 1 can tank effectively with just battlefield control and summons that can ignore that brand of battlefield control.

[ManicOppressive]

You do realize that the tier system is NOT a measurement of power, but versatility, right?

Power definitely still factors in, it's just less important. In general, a class two tiers down from another is pretty much guaranteed to be less powerful, regardless of versatility. Hence why tier 1 has the wizard (maximum versatility, maximum power), while tier 3 has the bard (maximum versatility, average power).

Since OP said tier 1-2, he's obviously looking for the power.

In the interest of actually contributing, something gishy could work if you don't mind just the one PrC. Cleric/Ordained Champion could work.

As you say though... Wildshape Druid is honestly just going to outclass any other option. It pretty much does everything better than everyone, and you can get your archivist some spells if you do some scroll scribing.

[Hyena]

Try Lightning Warrior. Be warned, however, he's a bit weak - he sacrifices a lot of power for flavour.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could, for variety, use a steel dragon gish, with a fair bit of focus on sorcerer casting, and using age cursing to get the physical stats. A tier 1 party is always better if there's a dragon.

[Rebel7284]

Thank you for the replies!



Wizard 20. Refluff.


Wizard needs to expand so many extra resources to tank well that it's a painfully suboptimal way to play for them. At least cleric and druid have class features that support going into melee once in a while.


You do realize that the tier system is NOT a measurement of power, but versatility, right?

It's a measurement of both in my understanding.
Tier 1 - Worldbreaking power, high versatility
Tier 2 - Worldbreaking power, low versatility
Tier 3 - medium power, high versatility
Tier 4 - high power, low versatility
Tier 5 - low power, low versatility
Tier 6 - CW Samurai

Not sure why you're bringing it up though, obviously by the nature of tier 1, all these characters will be able to fill all roles if they want, but some roles will still be easier to fill than others.


Maybe a psychic warrior?
Though, I'm not sure if you can quite get him up to tier 1.

Hmm, with a level 6 power cap, yeah I don't think Psychic Warrior quite gets to tier 1. They get pretty close though with judicious expanded knowledge though!


Probably Cleric 9/Cancer Mage 1/Whatever 10. Cleric for the nice self-buffs and Divine Metamagic shenanigans, Cancer Mage for Festering Anger abuse.

Sorry, I think anything that had NI loop is no longer tier 1. Tier 0/Tier "puzzle" is more like it.




Tier 1 can tank effectively with just battlefield control and summons that can ignore that brand of battlefield control.


True, but that takes precious actions and/or resources.


Re: All the people talking about CoD

Yeah, sounds like that may be the best way to go for simplicity. Perhaps a dragonwraught kobold would allow me to have higher Int then Con without twisting the pointbuy too much and get me the Fairy Mysteries initiate subtheme that way.


Try Lightning Warrior. Be warned, however, he's a bit weak - he sacrifices a lot of power for flavour.

Crossed my mind, but alas, without the familiar, it's just a bit too weak. :P


You could, for variety, use a steel dragon gish, with a fair bit of focus on sorcerer casting, and using age cursing to get the physical stats. A tier 1 party is always better if there's a dragon.


Cool idea! Dragon tank!

[gooddragon1]

Try Lightning Warrior. Be warned, however, he's a bit weak - he sacrifices a lot of power for flavour.

The loss of the familiar is crippling, but it's the inability to specialize spellcasting that makes the class unplayable.

I'd rather play a 3rd edition psion with attack and defense modes.

[GreyBlack]

Hello all,

How would you build a tier one or tier two fighter?

Background: After seeing a thread about the best party composition, I have thought long and hard about how I would make a party with stereotypical roles all be in my favorite tier - tier 1.

To me, this party consists of the following:
Arcane Caster - StP Erutide OR Wizard-> Incantatrix
Divine Caster - Archivist
Trapfinder - Artificer
Tank - ???

So far, the best I have come up is wildshape focused Druid, but I am wondering if I am missing any interesting alternatives.

Bonus points:
- Simplicity: All the other roles are filled by single classed characters, so ideally the fighter would have minimal dipping/PrCing
- Int focus: seems like it would make a nice subtheme if everyone was focused on Int. Then everyone can take Fairy Mysteries initiate for a party with the BEST morning ritual! :D



Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

To build a T1-2 fighter, take a cleric and abuse DMM - persist. Cast Righteous Might. Profit (prophet?).

[Warrnan]

Yep. At level 6, a cleric will have close wounds and many other strong defensive spells. If you grab a few levels of ordained champion you have some smites for the lols.

Druid can summon walls of meat via the summon monster line. With his pet fighter (bear or riding dog at lower levels) and the ability to wildshape into a wolf or bear, all while maintaining 20 caster levels, druid 20 is a simple and powerful build, albeit heavy on paperwork.

On the complex end of things, fighter1, wizard4, runesmith1, eldritch knight8, spellsword1, abjurant champion5 gets you 18CL and 17 base attack while wearing full plate.

Or delete runesmith and 2 levels of eldritch knight to grab incantrix 3 for persisted buffs. Probably the higher tier option, honestly. Also, go nuts with polymorph.

Tier one can tank well if you play with it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Simple T1 melee/tank that isn't a CoDzilla? How about a Psion, or maybe Psion/Slayer. Share Pain + Vigor, Astral Construct power armor, good action economy for buffing/self-healing powers... Low BAB, but a Skillful weapon, Metamorphosis, or appropriate PrC can take care of that.

[MisterKaws]

warblade 1/wujen 5/jade phoenix mage 10/abjurant champion 4

It's already a pretty tanky gish build with any caster, but wujen has TONS of exclusive spells that make it even more tankier, and once per week, you can toggle godmode, by using transcend mortality into emerald immolation at last round if you're REALLY desesperate.

Plus it's an int build!

[Tvtyrant]

Sorcerer 20 (or Sorcerer/Spelldancer). Use Wings of Cover in low levels, Craft Contingency in high levels for defenses.

With some feats you can persist a maximized empowered fell drain Thunder Lance or the equivalent (lots of weapon making spells). Persist Wraithstrike, use twohanded and power attack.

I just realized that Thunderlance would need Ocular Adept to persist. Shoot.

[ekarney]

A Binder with online enhancement can fulfil you're T2 melee needs, and a couple others.

You'll have a reasonable spell list available to you, as well as summons and utility.

Alternatively Cleric/Bone Knight. You still get 9th level spells as well as increased melee potential.

Meleeficer is also a viable option, if you're ready for the amount of work playing an artificer requires.

Pretty much anything that get's T1 casting can fill the role so, long as you're halfway decent at resource management. Throw a PrC that gets at least 7/10 spellcasting for flavour or whatever.

[Aharon]

I tried building the perfect T1 party, too. For me, it consisted of:


Antropomorphic Bat Druid/Planar Shepard
Kobold Sorcerer/War Weaver/Spellguard of Silvery Moon/Incantatrix
Warforged Artificer
Human Beguiler 1/Radiant Bluffsnake 10/something else


I tried playing that group from level 1, and actually noted that at this level, all their potential future power might not matter. They did fine in battle encounters - exemplary, in fact, but low physical stats for everyone meant lots of problems with skill checks. If you ignore encumbrance, encumbrance penalties, etc., that's not a problem, but it really weighed this group down.

To answer your question: Antropomorphic Bat Druid/Planar Shepherd, but only if the rest of the group can make up for the lack of strength outside of combat encounters.

[GreyBlack]

I tried building the perfect T1 party, too. For me, it consisted of:


Antropomorphic Bat Druid/Planar Shepard
Kobold Sorcerer/War Weaver/Spellguard of Silvery Moon/Incantatrix
Warforged Artificer
Human Beguiler 1/Radiant Bluffsnake 10/something else


I tried playing that group from level 1, and actually noted that at this level, all their potential future power might not matter. They did fine in battle encounters - exemplary, in fact, but low physical stats for everyone meant lots of problems with skill checks. If you ignore encumbrance, encumbrance penalties, etc., that's not a problem, but it really weighed this group down.

To answer your question: Antropomorphic Bat Druid/Planar Shepherd, but only if the rest of the group can make up for the lack of strength outside of combat encounters.

Isn't Planar Shepherd a +2 PRC, stacked on a T1 chassis, technically making it a T0/T-1? I mean, it's kinda ridiculous.

[nedz]

Isn't Planar Shepherd a +2 PRC, stacked on a T1 chassis, technically making it a T0/T-1? I mean, it's kinda ridiculous.

As is Incantatrix and Rainbow Charmsnaker, Warforged Artificer is the weak one here.

[MisterKaws]

As is Incantatrix and Rainbow Charmsnaker, Warforged Artificer is the weak one here.

Yeah, but when the strong ones are at god-tier, the weak one's actually not so weak...

[nedz]

Yeah, but when the strong ones are at god-tier, the weak one's actually not so weak...

No, I know. Warforged Artificer is merely high T1 though. His job is to equip the party I guess.

[Eldariel]

@Aharon: You can generally use pack mules, riding dogs, etc. purchased with your starting gold to negate most of the issues that come with encumbrance. There's little you actually need to carry in this party and things like climbing, swimming, etc. can be tool-assisted.


@OP: Any T1 class can do it around level 5-7 onwards. For level 1 tanking, Druid is arguably the best class in the game (and anyone can take Wild Cohort). Druids are almost the only ones who can afford to "die" (that is to say, there's no OOC penalty for their animal companion dying and they can get a new one in a blink) and the animal companions have comparable HP to almost any class with great AC if you use Bardings. Their offense isn't amazing but it's passable and they can be buffed.

On level 1, anyone can die with an unlucky critical (a simple CR1 standard array Orc Warrior with 16 Strength can crit for 3d12 + 12, average 31.5 with a Greataxe at +6 to hit on a charge; that's enough to instantly kill a raging 20 Con Warforged Barbarian with Adamantine Body leaving them at -10.5). Thus it's absolutely fantastic to be able to avoid risking the hit in the first place. Indeed, for level 1 combat one should always prioritise scouting and trying to get the surprise and taking the opponent down before they can take offensive actions where possible. It's all about minimizing the risk, and to that end disposables like animal companion, dodging abilities like abrupt jaunt, and surprise are the only real ways to have a high chance of survival (enemy casters have access to stuff like Color Spray, Sleep, Scrolls & co. too and one unlucky die roll can again mean character death).