Bladesinger: Dual Wield or Dueling?

[Syll]

So a friend of mine told me he's going to be starting up a new campaign soon; custom world, no UA material.

I'm looking at trying out the bladesinger, and more than that I'm looking to multiclass, but I'm torn on which direction to take. I'm considering either:

Ranger2/Bladesinger x: Dual-wield fighting style, and picking up Hunter's Mark / Cure Wounds.

-or-

Paladin2/Bladesinger x: Dueling fighting style, and picking up Bless / Cure Wounds.

Ranger would give the benefit of attribute damage to the offhand attack, and the +1d6 of hunter's mark to both attacks for the entire fight for a single spell slot( barring the need to concentrate on another spell of course), and the need to pick up Warcaster ASAP.

Paladin would give the benefit of Smite and channeling spell slots into radiant damage, and +2 damage on each swing from the dueling fighting style, at the cost of burning a lot more spell slots to keep up that bonus smite damage.

I'm hoping for a fresh pair of eyes that points out something I haven't thought of, so..... Thoughts?

[Corran]

You cannot dual wield, even if your DM lets you it will be a pain when wanting to cast spells with somatic component and you will be forced to take warcaster, which is a good feat but you dont need to make it a tax for you. Hex will lose value as you advance in levels, there will be far better concentration spells for you to use. Bless is a good choice, especially at lower levels, but you want to leave it for someone else to cast it. If you intend to play as a frontliner, you definitely need a concentration spell other than hex or bless anyway, such as blur at level 3. In case you want to gish, ranger does not offer anthing of great value, while the paladin mainly offers the ability to burn slots to smite, which is cool, but if you want to do that you just go paladin/sorcerer. Paladin/bladesinger is simply too MAD, and unless you have great rolls dont try it. If you want to be a frontline, maybe look to multiclass with EK, or play an EK instead. If you are deadset on bladesinger however, make sure you have your defensive bufs prepared, your bladesong on, and watch for what hits your saves.

[Syll]

You cannot dual wield,

What are you basing this off of? Bladesinging only requires you aren't wearing medium/heavy armor, or using a shield; unless there's something else I'm missing? (excepting somatic spells, hence warcaster)


Hex will lose value as you advance in levels, there will be far better concentration spells for you to use. Bless is a good choice, especially at lower levels, but you want to leave it for someone else to cast it. If you intend to play as a frontliner, you definitely need a concentration spell other than hex or bless anyway, such as blur at level 3. In case you want to gish, ranger does not offer anthing of great value, while the paladin mainly offers the ability to burn slots to smite,

Can you give me some examples of better concentration spells? I would sooner cast mirror image (not concentration)


In case you want to gish, ranger does not offer anthing of great value, while the paladin mainly offers the ability to burn slots to smite,

I will absolutely be wading into combat; and I agree ranger is unusual; but pld doesn't have dual wield as an available option, and barring something more useful to concentrate on, a bonus 2d6 every round seems potent(from hunter's mark) at the cost of a single 1st level spell

[Corran]

What are you basing this off of? Bladesinging only requires you aren't wearing medium/heavy armor, or using a shield; unless there's something else I'm missing? (excepting somatic spells, hence warcaster)There has been some debate over it, I am afb atm, but there is something else saying that you cannot use bladesong when you use two hands for an attack or sth in these lines, which made people disagree if bladesong prevents only two-handed weapons or two-handed along wih dual wielding. I dont remember the exat wording, and it is not what I gave above, but check with your DM to be sure, as this could affect your whole build. For example, if your DM lets you dual wield, then hex could possibly carry you for more levels than otherwise.




Can you give me some examples of better concentration spells? I would sooner cast mirror image (not concentration)



I will absolutely be wading into combat; and I agree ranger is unusual; but pld doesn't have dual wield as an available option, and barring something more useful to concentrate on, a bonus 2d6 every round seems potent(from hunter's mark) at the cost of a single 1st level spell
The real cost is that you delay you caster progression. And nothing you get really compensates for it. The only tempting thing imo is the ability to burn slots for smite, given to you by the paladin, smiting is always fun, but that works far better with a paly/sorc than with a paly/bladesinger.

The bladesinger is squishy, if you find yourself in melee, you will find that blur will be more useful than hex. Blur and shield will be your bread and butter in the lower levels, when you melee. And you can drop a mirror image on top of that if you want. Hex's additional damage is nice, but youcan only deal damage whle you are conscious, but anyway, that's not the real reason I dont think hex is good for you, the main reason is what I said earlier, that grabbing two levels of ranger delays your caster progression.

[Malifice]

What are you basing this off of? Bladesinging only requires you aren't wearing medium/heavy armor, or using a shield; unless there's something else I'm missing? (excepting somatic spells, hence warcaster)

Even with warcaster, you cant cast spells with a 'M' component with your hands full (unless one of the weapons you use is a staff, AND the component is not a costly one).


I will absolutely be wading into combat

My advice is 'dont'. You're playing a Wizard who delivers his at will cantrips in melee, so has a number of class features to ameliorate the fact that you otherwise suck in melee.

If you plan on MCing 2 levels AND taking warcaster, that leaves you with 3 ASI - barely enough to grab a Dex of 20 and Int of 18 as an ELF at 20th level. Your HP will be atrocious for much of your career (until you can spam spell slots to absord damage near end game) as will your DPR compared to other front liners.

You're much better off playing it as a high AC Wizard who can in a pinch enter melee. Stand back an blast, blast, blast, resorting to melee only to deliver cantrips, or if there is no other option.

If you're dead set on a melee blade singer, my personal preference is Wizard (Bladesinger) 2, Paladin (Ancients) 6 and Fighter (Eldritch knight) 12.

[D.U.P.A.]

There has been some debate over it, I am afb atm, but there is something else saying that you cannot use bladesong when you use two hands for an attack or sth in these lines, which made people disagree if bladesong prevents only two-handed weapons or two-handed along wih dual wielding. I dont remember the exat wording, and it is not what I gave above, but check with your DM to be sure, as this could affect your whole build. For example, if your DM lets you dual wield, then hex could possibly carry you for more levels than otherwise.



The real cost is that you delay you caster progression. And nothing you get really compensates for it. The only tempting thing imo is the ability to burn slots for smite, given to you by the paladin, smiting is always fun, but that works far better with a paly/sorc than with a paly/bladesinger.

The bladesinger is squishy, if you find yourself in melee, you will find that blur will be more useful than hex. Blur and shield will be your bread and butter in the lower levels, when you melee. And you can drop a mirror image on top of that if you want. Hex's additional damage is nice, but youcan only deal damage whle you are conscious, but anyway, that's not the real reason I dont think hex is good for you, the main reason is what I said earlier, that grabbing two levels of ranger delays your caster progression.

It say when use two hands to attack with a weapon, it is a bit confusing, technically you use both hands when attacking with dual wield, although each attack in your turn is separate with your hand. However yes, that makes war caster mandatory, because it is expected for a Wizard to be able to cast spells all the time, unlike Eldritch knight, which has fairly limited casting. As for Hex/Hunter's mark I do not suggest it, because it is bonus action to cast (which eats your first dual wield attacking), and you need some points allocated in a sorta dump-ish stat. Also wizard's spells are too good to hamper the progression. You may take a magic initiate, although you better to increase your stats instead.

[Tenmujiin]

I don't own the book yet but I know bladesinging requires you to be wielding a single weapon in a single hand (unsure if it allows shields but no two handing or dualwielding)

[CNagy]

Ranger isn't a bad thought, though. Setting aside for the moment that a predominately Wizard Bladesinger does not want to wade into melee, Horde Breaker will give you an extra chance to use that smarts-damage, kicking you up to potentially 4 attacks if your DM allows TWF. It also procs off of the melee cantrips, so 3 levels of Ranger gives you what 7 levels of Eldritch Knight would, without costing your bonus action to make the attack. For that matter, it takes some of the pain out of War Magic, letting an Eldritch Knight get off a cantrip and two attacks in a lot of cases and giving an alternative to EK11.

[Malifice]

Ranger isn't a bad thought, though. Setting aside for the moment that a predominately Wizard Bladesinger does not want to wade into melee, Horde Breaker will give you an extra chance to use that smarts-damage, kicking you up to potentially 4 attacks if your DM allows TWF. It also procs off of the melee cantrips, so 3 levels of Ranger gives you what 7 levels of Eldritch Knight would, without costing your bonus action to make the attack. For that matter, it takes some of the pain out of War Magic, letting an Eldritch Knight get off a cantrip and two attacks in a lot of cases and giving an alternative to EK11.

You cant twf with the new cantrips and you can't use the free Attack from horde breaker to cast a cantrip.

Considering the PITA of dragging material components out and the cost of warcaster, you're better off using a single weapon and dipping Paladin for smite damage.

Although I agree that anyone trying to turn a bladesinger into a melee fighter is going to be as disappointed as anyone who tries to turn an EK ibto a blaster.

[CNagy]

You cant twf with the new cantrips and you can't use the free Attack from horde breaker to cast a cantrip.

Considering the PITA of dragging material components out and the cost of warcaster, you're better off using a single weapon and dipping Paladin for smite damage.

Although I agree that anyone trying to turn a bladesinger into a melee fighter is going to be as disappointed as anyone who tries to turn an EK ibto a blaster.

I wasn't suggesting either of those. Horde Breaker will trigger off of a cantrip; cast the cantrip (greenflame or booming blade) and the attack triggers Horde Breaker if another enemy is within 5 feet. One cantrip and one attack; that's War Magic earlier than an EK. With an EK, Horde Breaker can be one cantrip and two attacks, making EK11 less of a neccessity.

[Malifice]

I wasn't suggesting either of those. Horde Breaker will trigger off of a cantrip; cast the cantrip (greenflame or booming blade) and the attack triggers Horde Breaker if another enemy is within 5 feet. One cantrip and one attack; that's War Magic earlier than an EK. With an EK, Horde Breaker can be one cantrip and two attacks, making EK11 less of a neccessity.

Assuming an adjacent creature though. War magic is strictly better.

[CNagy]

Assuming an adjacent creature though. War magic is strictly better.

With a 4 level higher investment and costing a bonus action, it very much should be. That said, having an enemy within 5' of your first target and in reach is not an especially difficult or rare situation. In melee of most encounters, I think (but am not certain, having not kept count) that this situation is true at least as often as not, in my experience. Horde Breaker makes War Magic better, though.

Ever since the SCAG cantrips, War Magic has become equivalent to the 11th level damage boost. On the one hand, you have a spell with an attack and a bonus action attack, and on the other hand you have Extra Attack 2 giving you 3 attacks (4 if you fight with two weapons.) EK7/Hunter3 strikes a middle ground; maneuver yourself to where you can trigger Horder Breaker, then cast a cantrip that has a melee attack, take a Horde Breaker attack, and take a bonus action attack.

I mentioned Ranger wasn't a bad thought also because if a player is going Bladesinger 14, then they can't get War Magic with an EK multiclass. What they can do is fight with a single whip (imo the best weapon choice for a Bladesinger) while casting in the backlines, removing any need for War Caster, and fight with two whips (and Two Weapon Fighting style, thanks to Ranger) if they are forced into melee; a potential of 3d4+30 damage to one target and 1d4+10 to another (or split evenly). I've played a two weapon whip Bladesinger (as part of an EK build, though, rapier + whip rather than 2 whips) but the reach really opens up what you can do without putting yourself right in the thick of things. I don't normally plan to take Bladesinger as far as 14, but for someone who did grabbing 3 levels of Ranger is a pretty useful dip.

[Syll]

Horde Breaker will trigger off of a cantrip; cast the cantrip (greenflame or booming blade) and the attack triggers Horde Breaker if another enemy is within 5 feet. One cantrip and one attack; that's War Magic earlier than an EK. With an EK, Horde Breaker can be one cantrip and two attacks, making EK11 less of a neccessity.

I never would have noticed this; thank you, that's pretty clever.

[bdyer]

Here's the blade song text
Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapac- itated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

[DivisibleByZero]

Bladesong ends if you make AN attack with two hands, as in, one attack.
Nothing prohibits dual wielding. This has been confirmed by Crawford. The use of a two handed weapon (or use of the versatile property) will end the bladesong.

For what it's worth, my bladesinger will start as a rogue, multi to wizard 2, go back to get rogue 5, then back to wiz for a while, then finish as an eventual arcane trickster 13/bladesinger 7 (or something like that).

[Syll]

Here's the blade song text
Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapac- itated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).

I agree... I own the book;

I guess some people are saying they read that as excluding dual wield? I don't understand that view point. 2 Hands to make AN attack, with A weapon isn't the same as requiring a free hand; it's just barring the use of 2 handed weapons, or versatile weapons weapons wielded with 2 hands. Dual wielding is using 1 Hand, to make A attack... followed by 1 hand, making a separate attack, as a separate bonus action.

[Dudu]

I'd make a Bladesong 17/ EK 3. Access to lvl 9 spells, action surge, fighting style and all bladesong bonus.

Choose rapier and focus only in Dex and Int, with Con being tertiary as usual. This is the kind of build that can be a bit lackluster early on, but superb late game. The third level will bring one level of caster, which is necessary to reach lvl 9 spells.

Basically, I'd simply say Bladesong 17/ something martial. It's just that 3 levels of fighter bring a lot of goodies and that level of EK can bring you an extra spell slot of 5th level, two more cantrips know and 3 more lvl 1 spells know. Not huge, leave it for last.

You can focus on TWF or Duelling in this build.

[tieren]

For me the issue is having a lot of stuff to do with your bonus action (casting, starting a bladesong, moving hunters mark, etc...) that specializing in a technique that also utilizes your bonus action may not be optimal.

I think I would go with a 1 hand weapon and see if you can get an arcane focus to hold in the other (maybe a rod or an orb or something) to deal with M components.

I do think the ranger dip would be neat to pick up a fighting style, and horde breaker. horde breaker can give you an extra attack for free if the positioning requirement is met, and if you're in the front lines it should be met a lot. That can give you 3 attacks at a pretty low level (compared to a level 11 fighter) without using up your bonus action.

I believe you'll get warcaster anyway, its just too full of goodness for a caster that wants to be in melee a lot.

[Dudu]

Indeed, we are not talking about a spell-less character that has bonus actions to spare. In the end, TWF seems truly underwhelming in this edition, don't matter how I look at it.
The warcaster requirement being the smallest of the issues here, since chances are you want to grab this feat anyway.

[Nicodiemus]

When I saw they'd brought Bladesingers back in SCAG I was aching to try it. I bounced around the Ranger idea, but ultimately at 8th level went with Battle Master 3, Swashbuckler 3, Bladesinger 2. The fancy footwork and rakish audacity coupled with a 50' move with longstrider and bladesong gives sneak attack damage almost every round with no opportunity attacks and little chance of reprisal. With the Battle Master sweeping attack you can mimic the hordebreaker, and I took riposte, precision and feinting so I'd have a diverse bag of tricks.

The animal style I used to model my weapon choices was the manticore: shortswords, daggers and a whip. SS and dagger for a nice two weapon combo with option to throw the off hand. Not an optimized build, but super fun to play.

[djreynolds]

Bladesong ends if you make AN attack with two hands, as in, one attack.
Nothing prohibits dual wielding. This has been confirmed by Crawford. The use of a two handed weapon (or use of the versatile property) will end the bladesong.

For what it's worth, my bladesinger will start as a rogue, multi to wizard 2, go back to get rogue 5, then back to wiz for a while, then finish as an eventual arcane trickster 13/bladesinger 7 (or something like that).

Why do they do that? Don't these guys sit around the table with an editor and publisher and ask questions like, "Hey, it says one weapon and no weapon in two hands. But we will let you use duel wield.

You can't wield a long sword in two hands but you can dual wield them.

But if that's the case. Arcane trickster is the winner, the stats just fit nicely and cunning action and expertise are always welcome.