Spell List Woes? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SharkForce

2015-12-07, 07:46 PM

i wish the eldritch knight and arcane trickster actually had spell lists instead of taking parts of the wizard spell list that leaves many of the spells you'd most expect them to have on their spell list as being limited choices.

the eldritch knight does not by default get the great majority of spells that buff combat. the arcane trickster does not by default get the majority of spells that increase mobility in ways that a rogue would want to use.

in both cases, i consider these to be design flaws. the fighter should be able to enlarge themselves so they can grapple larger creatures (and deal bonus damage with their melee attacks), the rogue should be be able to reduce themselves to fit through tiny holes, they both should be able to buff themselves to jump great distances, and they both should be able to haste themselves to improve their combat abilities. the arcane trickster is in a less ridiculous situation, but still can't teleport through a window or spider climb on a ceiling without blowing their very limited unrestricted spell choice on it, nor can they make a fog cloud to cover their escape.

now we have the bladesinger and any silly pretense of the eldritch knight being a remotely adequate offensive spellcaster with regular combat capabilities has been removed, and the lore bard was pretty much destroying the arcane trickster in the offensive caster + skill user field from day 1, and the poor design decision to restrict those archetypes to only 2 schools of magic rather than giving either unrestricted access (within the appropriate spell levels) or a special spell list is looking worse than ever.

edit: also, i consider the sorcerer spell list in general to be a complete disaster (not just in the necromancy department), and despise the decisions they took to make it basically a wildly inferior version of the wizard spell list with a few strange arbitrary additions

Flashy

2015-12-07, 07:52 PM

Personally I think the Cleric 7th, 8th and 9th level spell lists could stand a few extra entries. They're pretty short, a lot of entries are highly situational, and only a few are useful for anything between healing people and destroying cities.

Edit: They could also frankly use more than one damage cantrip. As it is they're not actually a valid class to select when taking Spell Sniper even though they're listed in the feat description.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-08, 12:05 AM

Yeah, I find the use of wizard spell list for the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster rather uninspiring, I completely even forgot to think of them when posting the thread. I can concur that the favoritism to wizards over sorcerers in such a heavy handed manner in regards to their massive spell list is ridiculous to me, the ability to know more spells than any other class is invaluable, why would you restrict a great variety of the spells from the Sorcerer when the Wizard will still retain their signature advantage of magical versatility is beyond me.

And I also agree that clerics could use more than one damage cantrip, perhaps someone can homebrew a cantrip for them, I think necrotic damage would be nice for a cleric cantrip.

MrStabby

2015-12-08, 06:43 AM

AbyssStalker

2015-12-08, 11:10 PM

As for clerics, a lot do have other cantrips. Nature, Death and Arcana can all take other damaging cantrips I believe.

I think it would be nice to see more damage cantrips available for the core cleric though, I think 3 would be a nice amount in the least.

Saddened that bards don't get Blur as well. That seems it would be right up a bard's alley, more-so than Invisibility in my opinion.

MaxWilson

2015-12-08, 11:51 PM

I am among the people who are a little saddened at how Sorcerers don't get an adequate necromancy spell selection in this edition, but I wonder about how the community feels about the different spell lists, would you like to see more spells of a certain type in other classes, are there any odd-ball spells that you really don't see as fit for the class, do you feel as though some schools of magic themselves are lacking, or do you find the lists to be just about right?

Personally, other than the previously mentioned shortage of necro-spells of the Sorcerer's list, I have no problems with the lists, although I do wish Grease and Jump were Bard spells.

It saddens and puzzles me that Absorb Elements is a wizard spell but not a sorcerer spell. In my game it is both. What could be more Draconic Sorcerer than Absorb Elements?

I have absolutely no problem however with the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster spell selections. Eldritch Knights rock.

SharkForce

2015-12-09, 01:21 AM

I think sorcerers are overall a very powerful class - metamagic is a huge, huge boost but I agree that the ability to focus on a particular branch of magic would be nice if only from a thematic perspective.

a sorcerer has basically 2 core abilities; metamagic and the ability to exchange between spells and metamagic (with a cost attached).

then each archetype generally gets a few abilities, one of which is usually nice and the rest of which kinda suck. and also often cost your metamagic points to use.

in contrast, most other casters have some really compelling class features, and also powerful archetype features that mesh well with their class and frequently *add* resources instead of requiring that you spend your already-severely-limited resource that is used to fuel your only strong class feature to activate.

sorcerers have some things going for them. but they've got a lot less going for them than any other full caster.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-09, 01:29 AM

It saddens and puzzles me that Absorb Elements is a wizard spell but not a sorcerer spell. In my game it is both. What could be more Draconic Sorcerer than Absorb Elements?

I have absolutely no problem however with the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster spell selections. Eldritch Knights rock.

I think Evocation is kinda crap for an Eldritch Knight. It's not a school of magic that really helps the fighter at hitting things. I'd much prefer that for Arcane Trickster an Eldritch Knight, you just chose two schools of magic as your primary. More versatility with the same level of power, assuming each school is roughly equal.

Sorcerers aren't nearly as bad in comparison, though I do like the idea behind Storm Sorcerer, where they get some spells for free. I wish the other subclasses did the same.

Flashy

2015-12-09, 01:44 AM

MaxWilson

2015-12-09, 02:38 AM

I think Evocation is kinda crap for an Eldritch Knight. It's not a school of magic that really helps the fighter at hitting things. I'd much prefer that for Arcane Trickster an Eldritch Knight, you just chose two schools of magic as your primary. More versatility with the same level of power, assuming each school is roughly equal.

Sorcerers aren't nearly as bad in comparison, though I do like the idea behind Storm Sorcerer, where they get some spells for free. I wish the other subclasses did the same.

Evocation may not be much, but Abjuration is great. Shield, Counterspell, Absorb Elements are fantastic reactions, and Mage Armor is handy for Dexy archer types. Between that and school-free picks like Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, and Blur, you have plenty of spells to fill your spells known list with. Evocation... well, it's nice that you can pick Fireball at 13th level without costing a school-free pick, to get some crowd control, although Thunderclap does about as well. Wall of Fire might theoretically be nice against hordes, but overall Evocation is kind of irrelevant.

So you can ignore Evocation and just focus on Abjuration, but EKs are still awesome.

MrStabby

2015-12-09, 08:03 AM

a sorcerer has basically 2 core abilities; metamagic and the ability to exchange between spells and metamagic (with a cost attached).

then each archetype generally gets a few abilities, one of which is usually nice and the rest of which kinda suck. and also often cost your metamagic points to use.

in contrast, most other casters have some really compelling class features, and also powerful archetype features that mesh well with their class and frequently *add* resources instead of requiring that you spend your already-severely-limited resource that is used to fuel your only strong class feature to activate.

sorcerers have some things going for them. but they've got a lot less going for them than any other full caster.

I agree with most of this other than the last part. Sorcerers don't have many good things going for them but Metamagic is awesome and font of magic is pretty solid. metamagic used right can give a lot of flexability by getting you the most efficient set of spell slots you can use.

SharkForce

2015-12-09, 10:31 AM

I agree with most of this other than the last part. Sorcerers don't have many good things going for them but Metamagic is awesome and font of magic is pretty solid. metamagic used right can give a lot of flexability by getting you the most efficient set of spell slots you can use.

the problem is that the extremely small number of spells known and the extremely small spell list severely limits what you can do with metamagic. other casters can use their much larger spell list and large number of prepared spells to accomplish many of the things you might expect to accomplish with metamagic, but sorcerers usually can't use metamagic to compensate for their lack of spells known.

it is also a problem for other reasons; it is really hard to make an illusionist sorcerer, for example, because you will pretty much either have only illusions and have nothing else to fall back on, or you will be missing out on some important illusion spells (and even so you'll still have a very limited selection of non-illusion spells to fall back on potentially leaving you with some really major gaps in what you're capable of). you can make a perfectly competent nuking sorcerer with the current class, but you can't make a crowd control sorcerer very effectively because a number of important spells just aren't on their list at all. no forcecage or wall of force, for example. and you can't make a summoning-oriented sorcerer at all because you don't get summoning spells (they might get some if the UA spells that summon demons remain, but just like they took away the cool toys from the storm sorcerer i'm expecting them to do the same with those spells. not that those spells are really even options for many good-aligned characters in the first place, and doubly so for sorcerers who have a much higher investment required and a much harder time uninvesting themselves).

not all of these problems would be solved by making their spell list the same as the wizard's list, but it would help a lot. especially since many of the spells they don't get access to are some of the most versatile spells in the game which could allow them to cover multiple needs with a single spell slot, which is much more precious for a sorcerer than anyone else.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-09, 10:55 AM

SharkForce

2015-12-09, 11:03 AM

honestly, until i get myself to a point where i'm prepared to overhaul the sorcerer entirely, i'd probably just use kryx's homebrew sorcerer class (well, homebrew doesn't quite feel like the right word... revised? tweaked? modified? whatever).

(i can't seem to find the link, but he basically merged the sorcerer and wizard spell lists, gave sorcerers a 2/3/4/5 sorcery point recovery on short rest depending on level, and added a list much like what the favoured soul gets to each type of sorcerer, and gives out a few more metamagic options).

i suppose if i wanted to stay as close to RAW as possible, i'd just let people swap for appropriately-themed spells though.

Kryx

2015-12-09, 11:29 AM

I forget where it is on giantitp, but here is a list of what I do since Shark mentioned it:

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th. See giantItP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547) for comments on this
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU/edit)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. See the Sorcerer specific spells added to his list under his section.

Fwiffo86

2015-12-09, 11:48 AM

the problem is that the extremely small number of spells known and the extremely small spell list severely limits what you can do with metamagic. other casters can use their much larger spell list and large number of prepared spells to accomplish many of the things you might expect to accomplish with metamagic, but sorcerers usually can't use metamagic to compensate for their lack of spells known.

I do not view this as a problem. The sorc is not a wizard. If anything, the sorc is an evolved form of the old spellfire rules from 2nd ed. At no point do I ever get the impression that a "natural caster" should have access to a wide selection of spells. I view them as using magic that is direct, simplistic, and requires very little experimentation (cause they don't memorize) to master.

it is also a problem for other reasons; it is really hard to make an illusionist sorcerer, for example, because you will pretty much either have only illusions and have nothing else to fall back on, or you will be missing out on some important illusion spells (and even so you'll still have a very limited selection of non-illusion spells to fall back on potentially leaving you with some really major gaps in what you're capable of). you can make a perfectly competent nuking sorcerer with the current class, but you can't make a crowd control sorcerer very effectively because a number of important spells just aren't on their list at all. no forcecage or wall of force, for example. and you can't make a summoning-oriented sorcerer at all because you don't get summoning spells (they might get some if the UA spells that summon demons remain, but just like they took away the cool toys from the storm sorcerer i'm expecting them to do the same with those spells. not that those spells are really even options for many good-aligned characters in the first place, and doubly so for sorcerers who have a much higher investment required and a much harder time uninvesting themselves).

I feel that you are trying to force the sorc into something that is just isn't. It may more accurate to say that you feel it should be able to adopt these traditionally wizard rolls, and I can see the train that brought you here, but I disagree. Again, I feel the sorc is not a utilitarian spell caster. They are direct, and simplistic. Spells that break this (IMO) perceived design choice should be discouraged.

not all of these problems would be solved by making their spell list the same as the wizard's list, but it would help a lot. especially since many of the spells they don't get access to are some of the most versatile spells in the game which could allow them to cover multiple needs with a single spell slot, which is much more precious for a sorcerer than anyone else.

Versatility is not what Sorcs do, and I don't believe they should be able to either. That is entirely what a Wizard is for. I would ask the question if you are simply attempting to modify the spell list to allow you to MM spells to bypass problems you perceive. If so, simply mutliclass. Solves the problem at the expense of not having all the Sorc Points. A fair trade of for the expanded spell list.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-09, 11:58 AM

Versatility is not what Sorcs do, and I don't believe they should be able to either. That is entirely what a Wizard is for. I would ask the question if you are simply attempting to modify the spell list to allow you to MM spells to bypass problems you perceive. If so, simply mutliclass. Solves the problem at the expense of not having all the Sorc Points. A fair trade of for the expanded spell list.

Versatility is also what other classes do, maybe not in the same magical way wizards got it, and I don't quite see the point you are making, sorcerers will have a limit to the amount of spells they can get, that is the limit to their versatility, even should they get a wide range of versatile spells, they will still be lesser to the wizards in the arcane versatility game.

I don't think that Sorcs should have quite the list that wizards do, but they should be a lot closer to it than what they are, and if I had to give the Sorcs a spell list, I would probably include most of the Wizard spell list, but that's just me.

Keep in mind actually, that Wizards are the only full-caster to have class abilities specialize in a particular school of magic, perhaps should be a bit more indicative of their spell-casting style compared to sorcerers, whose abilities can supplement most if not all of their spells in one way or another.

SharkForce

2015-12-09, 12:00 PM

Fwiffo86

2015-12-09, 12:40 PM

there is absolutely no basis to point to a certain spell and declare that it is more difficult to learn how to cast this particular spell of a given level than any other spell of a given level. how do we know that cone of cold is easier than wall of force? it takes a wizard the exact same amount of effort to learn either of them. there's no rule that if a wizard chooses wall of force at a level-up they can also choose a free level 1 spell to learn, or that it takes less time to learn or scribe a scroll of cone of cold versus wall of force. in all ways, spells of a given level are equally easy for a wizard to learn. there is no point at which a spell of level X becomes more complex than other spells of level X such that it takes more experimenting to figure it out.

Rule of scribing spells into a spellbook clearly lists gp cost and time required based upon spell level. Thus, higher level spells, are by my interpretation vastly more complex that lower level spells. This is the first thing I can think of that supports higher complexity to spells.

Now I may be pulling from old school here, but I remember days when spell books only had 100 pages, cantrips took up half a page, while other spells took 1 page per spell level, meaning the wizard at higher levels had more than one if they had alot of spells.

As for the Sorc discussion, I think you missed my point. I am AFB so I will suggest the following spells as an example. PWK vs Metor Swarm. One is simply snuffing out the life force of a single target (at reasonably close range in comparison to) Meteor Swarm, which one could argue pulls meteors from on high, or conjures them out of thin air. Which of these sounds more direct and easier to master? I say PWK is easier, more direct (less magic weaving if you will), and more in line with what I perceive the Sorc to be. I hope that clears up what I was saying.

furthermore, why would versatility inherently be something that sorcerers don't do? supposedly, they're the masters of making spells do different things. after all, who else gets metamagic, which is essentially the art of changing what spells do?

Modification of magic is what they do. Versatility of spell selection is a different animal. Modifying their naturally cast spells because they have control of the forces they generate from within is different that learning spells of particularly complex nature, such as MS.

and if anything, sorcerers took their base from the sorcerers of previous editions, not from spellfire. the current sorcerer can fairly adequately ape the 4e sorcerer in concept if not mechanics, but does an absolutely awful job of doing what you could do with a 3.x sorcerer. giving the full wizard spell list means that they can somewhat cover either role, and it still leaves the wizard with far more spells prepared at any given time (plus any rituals in their book) and certainly a much larger list of spells known, leaving the wizard firmly in position as the more versatile of the two in terms of what spells they have.

I agree to disagree.

Tanarii

2015-12-09, 02:04 PM

I think Evocation is kinda crap for an Eldritch Knight. It's not a school of magic that really helps the fighter at hitting things.I love Evocation on Str-build EKs. Not overdone of course. But Shatter/Fireball are nice options. And Evocation Cantrips are a nice at-will ranged option.

I actually mocked up a Spell Sniper EK to try out some day in a campaign that expects a lot of ranged attacks. Not sure how it'll play out though. Quite possible as "overdone". :)

AbyssStalker

2015-12-09, 04:35 PM

As for the Sorc discussion, I think you missed my point. I am AFB so I will suggest the following spells as an example. PWK vs Metor Swarm. One is simply snuffing out the life force of a single target (at reasonably close range in comparison to) Meteor Swarm, which one could argue pulls meteors from on high, or conjures them out of thin air. Which of these sounds more direct and easier to master? I say PWK is easier, more direct (less magic weaving if you will), and more in line with what I perceive the Sorc to be. I hope that clears up what I was saying.

Nah, I would argue that on the same spell level, different schools of magic would be redundant to compare in terms of complexity, it would be like comparing a watermelon's complexity to a cantaloupe, I would be truly appled to hear what a full-fledged multi-school-of-magic complexity argument would sound like because it would be like hearing different languages as the casters start describing how their fundamentally different forces compare to one another.

rollingForInit

2015-12-10, 08:21 AM

So, if you were DMing, would you allow players to substitute spells that are thematically appropriate for the character concept? Although it would likely depend on setting + mindset of the group, I would likely allow it in most cases if a compelling case is made as long as it doesn't appear to be (or get) abusive.

I could be convinced to make an exception, if the player explained why it was important to their concept and it didn't trampled all over another class's turf. For instance, an EK wanting all the healing spells from the Cleric list would be a big no.

Dalebert

2015-12-10, 10:32 AM

I tend to agree that the sorcerer list seems a little overly strict. I tend to assume that the designers took metamagic into account and didn't want to put spells that would get broken by metamagic but sometimes it's hard to understand why.

the problem is that the extremely small number of spells known and the extremely small spell list severely limits what you can do with metamagic. other casters can use their much larger spell list and large number of prepared spells to accomplish many of the things you might expect to accomplish with metamagic, but sorcerers usually can't use metamagic to compensate for their lack of spells known.

They shouldn't be able to. It should help but they're by design heavy-hitters as opposed to versatile and utility casters, e.g. wizards. If you're just willing magical forces to do things, it makes sense that you might do things more like blasting out a cone of frosty air rather than carefully shape force energy into a wall shape and keep it there or making a hemisphere of force to protect the party for 8 hours during a rest and so forth. Meanwhile they're damn good at being heavy-hitters! I don't think they intended them to fulfill the role of crowd-controller as well as a wizard.

not all of these problems would be solved by making their spell list the same as the wizard's list, but it would help a lot. especially since many of the spells they don't get access to are some of the most versatile spells in the game which could allow them to cover multiple needs with a single spell slot, which is much more precious for a sorcerer than anyone else.

Yikes. I do think sorcerers could use a little buffing, but some of this talk seems to lean toward a game where no one would want to play a wizard. If anything, I think wizards could use a buff that allows them a limited amount of casting a spell that they didn't prepare. They're pretty limited in their versatility by having to prepare spells ahead of time and having no option to even change out a spell out of combat in a limited manner short of taking a long rest.

Keep in mind actually, that Wizards are the only full-caster to have class abilities specialize in a particular school of magic, perhaps should be a bit more indicative of their spell-casting style compared to sorcerers, whose abilities can supplement most if not all of their spells in one way or another.

Yes, they get some sort of class features relevant to their field just as all classes and archetypes do, including sorcerers. We appear to be addressing spell-casting. This shouldn't get weighed in for comparing the two unless you feel a wizard's class features overall are clearly better than what a sorcerer gets.

furthermore, why would versatility inherently be something that sorcerers don't do? supposedly, they're the masters of making spells do different things. after all, who else gets metamagic, which is essentially the art of changing what spells do?

Because then they would have the primary feature that sets wizards apart, but also better than wizards. Why would anyone play a wizard? It's a difficult choice already. I'm for buffing sorcerers a bit like maybe another 5 spells known (+1 each for spell levels 1 through 5) that could possibly come from outside the normal list depending on their archetype, but they lack of versatility is obviously a design decision that affects balance.

Kryx seems onto something, but I can't imagine why I would EVER play a wizard over a sorcerer in his game and I think that's a sign that he went overboard trying to fix sorcerers. I played a sorcerer for a friend when he left the game and I was stunned at how effective they can be. Twinned Haste? Bonus action fireball over your shoulder while running away? Twinned firebolt for a single sorcery point and no spell slot while adding your cha bonus to each one? Being much better at concentration checks than any other casters without having to spend feats? OMG.

Kryx

2015-12-10, 01:03 PM

Kryx seems onto something, but I can't imagine why I would EVER play a wizard over a sorcerer in his game and I think that's a sign that he went overboard trying to fix sorcerers. I played a sorcerer for a friend when he left the game and I was stunned at how effective they can be. Twinned Haste? Bonus action fireball over your shoulder while running away? Twinned firebolt for a single sorcery point and no spell slot while adding your cha bonus to each one? Being much better at concentration checks than any other casters without having to spend feats? OMG.
Wizard is still way stronger than the Sorcerer. Not only spells known (by a massive margin), spells prepared (rituals, all prepared for free, and spell mastery), but their schools often compete with metamagic. It can go either way in that last one.
I wrote about it in one of the threads at the time.

Twinned haste is oversold imo.
You cannot bonus action fireball and cast a normal spell. If you're doing so that is not RAW or RAI.
Twinning firebolt is decent damage, still below martial DPR and you're burning a lot of resources to do so.

There are several other factors as well. Though as you've pointed out con save proficiency is definitely nice.

CoggieRagabash

2015-12-10, 01:35 PM

Twinned haste is oversold imo.

The idea of twinned haste always made me nervous. Yes I'm proficient with Con saves, but still. If I fail a concentration check, that's two people who can't take any actions until after their next turn. That's precarious, imho.

Dalebert

2015-12-10, 01:39 PM

You cannot bonus action fireball and cast a normal spell. If you're doing so that is not RAW or RAI.

Yes, I know. What brought that up?

techsamurai5000

2015-12-10, 01:58 PM

Evocation may not be much, but Abjuration is great. Shield, Counterspell, Absorb Elements are fantastic reactions, and Mage Armor is handy for Dexy archer types. Between that and school-free picks like Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, and Blur, you have plenty of spells to fill your spells known list with. Evocation... well, it's nice that you can pick Fireball at 13th level without costing a school-free pick, to get some crowd control, although Thunderclap does about as well. Wall of Fire might theoretically be nice against hordes, but overall Evocation is kind of irrelevant.

So you can ignore Evocation and just focus on Abjuration, but EKs are still awesome.

Problem is, you just named all three spells Abjuration spells on the whole wizard spell list. So if you're ignoring Evocation, what do you do with the rest of your known spells? (Note: I'm being facetious with regard to the number of spells, but my point still stands.. there are VERY few abjuration spells on the wizard list.. for example, only ONE 2nd level spell and it's kind of useless for an EK.)

SharkForce

2015-12-10, 02:05 PM

as kryx pointed out, the wizard spell list is one of many things providing a reason to play a wizard. their huge number of spells known compared to a sorcerer combined with a greater number of spells prepared and the best ritual casting that any class in the game gets are all quite compelling. then their archetypes are also much stronger than sorcerer archetypes.

there's a lot of room to buff sorcerers before they step on wizards toes so much that nobody should want to play a wizard.

Kryx

2015-12-10, 03:10 PM

The idea of twinned haste always made me nervous. Yes I'm proficient with Con saves, but still. If I fail a concentration check, that's two people who can't take any actions until after their next turn. That's precarious, imho.
Agreed that Haste is a huge risk. It's nice, but 20-30% more DPR for 2 players with such a large risk isn't nearly as good as people claim.

Yes, I know. What brought that up?
You suggested a Sorcerer can bonus action a Fireball. For what purpose? So they can cast a cantrip, or action dash? It means nothing unless you're assuming 2 action spells.

georgie_leech

2015-12-10, 06:08 PM

I love Evocation on Str-build EKs. Not overdone of course. But Shatter/Fireball are nice options. And Evocation Cantrips are a nice at-will ranged option.

I actually mocked up a Spell Sniper EK to try out some day in a campaign that expects a lot of ranged attacks. Not sure how it'll play out though. Quite possible as "overdone". :)

Ask Your DMTM about how the double range on cantrips involving attacks with a weapon interact with your weapon's range.

georgie_leech

2015-12-10, 06:09 PM

You suggested a Sorcerer can bonus action a Fireball. For what purpose? So they can cast a cantrip, or action dash? It means nothing unless you're assuming 2 action spells.

Do the casters in your games never have need of fleeing at high speeds from approaching dangerous enemies? :smallconfused:

SharkForce

2015-12-10, 06:33 PM

Do the casters in your games never have need of fleeing at high speeds from approaching dangerous enemies? :smallconfused:

do yours need it so often in the same round that they need to cast fireball that it is a major selling point of sorcerers as a class?

djreynolds

2015-12-10, 10:45 PM

Actually since you guys are offering advice. I need something to go versus demons and devils as a wizard. Merchants are slim and at 7th level I took Ice Storm, not happy with it now and found two other spells in a spell book, which I have to regain because my DM had a gang of goblins jump me after making cracks in bar.

But facing all these resistant enemies sucks. I can't even buff up two guys with protection from evil or even one and not leave myself exposed. Sorcerers can at least be really good buffers with high con saves and twin spell. Its a bigger perk than we think.

I'm so glad we have two paladins, 5E is actually tougher for spell casters, 1 concentration spell is very limiting

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 12:28 AM

Agreed that Haste is a huge risk. It's nice, but 20-30% more DPR for 2 players with such a large risk isn't nearly as good as people claim.

It's not all about DPR. It makes you massively more maneuverable and raises your AC as well. I played a friend's sorcerer for a couple games when he had to leave early. A Galeb Dur was rolling around and doing insane damage and it was almost right on top of him about to start smushing him. Being able to haste himself along with a melee party member quite probably saved his life and allowed him to stay clear of it and it's animated boulders the entire combat while he snipered from range.

You suggested a Sorcerer can bonus action a Fireball. For what purpose? So they can cast a cantrip, or action dash? It means nothing unless you're assuming 2 action spells.

Exactly what I said. In the second game I played him, we were getting swarmed and had to bail, i.e. dash to get away and up a rope and over a wall. I was frustrated though because we'd gotten a few of the tougher mobs pretty low and I knew we'd have to come back and face them after regrouping and recouping. I had him do the over-the-shoulder bonus action fireball as we dashed and he managed to finish off their wizard whom we didn't have to fight when we came back. That fight was a LOT easier thanks to that option. Having an extra action is a big deal, even if you can't cast a spell with it. For instance, you can activate a spell that you've already cast like Earthen Grasp.

The funny thing is this player was new to this edition and had his sights on a wizard... until he read up on the classes and then switched to sorcerer. I was a little disappointed as a fellow player seeking the utility of a wizard, but the proof is in the pudding. I finally saw a sorcerer in action and his character is a beast when things start getting scary.

Kane0

2015-12-11, 01:26 AM

Warlocks dont get bestow curse on their list, instead having to spend an invocation for it once per day.
Whats with that?

Tanarii

2015-12-11, 01:33 AM

Warlocks dont get bestow curse on their list, instead having to spend an invocation for it once per day.
Whats with that?
It'd make the invocation pointless? :p

Seriously though, it's because Warlock AoE debuff/CC is once/day, using a spell slot, and invocation granted. Bane, Slow, Bestow Curse, Confusion, Compulsion.

Polymorph is the only one out of place, because it's a single target debuff/CC. Like Hold Person/Monster and Dominate Monster. Otoh they left off dominate person from the warlock spell list, instead making it specific to one pact.

Edit: oops. Bestow curse is single target. Guess it's an outlier like Polymorph. Or it could be because it lasts eight hours when cast from a level five spell slot.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-11, 01:52 AM

You suggested a Sorcerer can bonus action a Fireball. For what purpose? So they can cast a cantrip, or action dash? It means nothing unless you're assuming 2 action spells.

He said "while running away", which I took to mean he was using his main action for dash/disengage.

do yours need it so often in the same round that they need to cast fireball that it is a major selling point of sorcerers as a class?

The feature isn't "Cast fireball as a bonus action and use your action to dash/disengage". The feature is "Cast any spell you want as a bonus action and then use your main action for whatever you want". That's going to be useful a considerable portion of the time.

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 03:48 AM

The feature isn't "Cast fireball as a bonus action and use your action to dash/disengage". The feature is "Cast any spell you want as a bonus action and then use your main action for whatever you want". That's going to be useful a considerable portion of the time.

no, the feature is that you can use your action for whatever you want except for the main thing that your class revolves around entirely.

it's amazing for, say, a paladin/sorcerer multiclass, especially with SCAG, because now you can use greenflame or booming blade as a bonus action and do 2 regular attacks (via extra action) with your regular action. as a sorcerer, well, it certainly is not by any means useless (and some spells make it quite good), but it also isn't exactly awe-inspiring in it's usefulness either most of the time.

again, is that class feature really so exciting that it justifies a sorcerer having such a bad spell list on their own?

djreynolds

2015-12-11, 04:02 AM

The funny thing is this player was new to this edition and had his sights on a wizard... until he read up on the classes and then switched to sorcerer. I was a little disappointed as a fellow player seeking the utility of a wizard, but the proof is in the pudding. I finally saw a sorcerer in action and his character is a beast when things start getting scary.

Twinning protection spells, ect that are all concentration is huge. That succubus charmed two tanks.

Hasting two fighters in melee is awesome. Just take ritual caster for utility, or put that lazy rogue to work and make him climb up there. Levitate my *ss. No climb. No invisibility, go sneak and come back.

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 05:40 AM

djreynolds

2015-12-11, 05:59 AM

charm is kinda crap unless you don't care about your allies and you can land it on significant enemies. not terrible for a succubus, but pretty awful for the typical adventurer.

twinned haste is giving two people a single extra attack for the most part. that's nice and all, but a non-twinned hypnotic pattern can do functionally better by giving you an extra full turn over a bunch of enemies.

haste is worth the spell slot, but unfortunately not generally your concentration slot. charm is seldom worth either, twinned or otherwise, in 5th edition, at least for PCs.

I'm getting my *ss handed to me right now as a wizard. Really because these demons are resistant to all my attack spells, and I cannot protect all my guys. They are so tough. I need some radiant damage source. I end up casting mirror image on myself, and pro from evil charging the arcane ward and trying to hang in there.

Give me some help, I'm 7th level I need something. I do have hypnotic pattern, I will try it. Or am I wimp and demons are tough

Zalabim

2015-12-11, 07:56 AM

It'd make the invocation pointless? :p

Seriously though, it's because Warlock AoE debuff/CC is once/day, using a spell slot, and invocation granted. Bane, Slow, Bestow Curse, Confusion, Compulsion.

Polymorph is the only one out of place, because it's a single target debuff/CC. Like Hold Person/Monster and Dominate Monster. Otoh they left off dominate person from the warlock spell list, instead making it specific to one pact.

Edit: oops. Bestow curse is single target. Guess it's an outlier like Polymorph. Or it could be because it lasts eight hours when cast from a level five spell slot.

Warlocks do get both Fear and Hypnotic Pattern though. The difference is that things might be immune to Frightened or Charmed. Bestow Curse is probably for the non-concentration ability at level 5, and Polymorph is almost certainly to prevent using it as a buff on a short rest recharge, like Wild Shape. The others are seriously inexplicable.

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 08:57 AM

I'm getting my *ss handed to me right now as a wizard. Really because these demons are resistant to all my attack spells, and I cannot protect all my guys. They are so tough. I need some radiant damage source. I end up casting mirror image on myself, and pro from evil charging the arcane ward and trying to hang in there.

Give me some help, I'm 7th level I need something. I do have hypnotic pattern, I will try it. Or am I wimp and demons are tough

demons are fairly tough. you may want to try using knowledge rolls to find out what their bad saves are. radiant damage is unfortunately quite improbable for you any time soon (not until level 11, and then it's 1/day). they probably have bad int saves, if you have phantasmal force *that* being twinned can help. if they don't have truesight.

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 10:48 AM

I should point out that I was one of the first to feel like the sorcerer was way underpowered. I started a thread here a while back about it and how stunned I was at how few spells known they get. I still feel they're a little short on spells known. That's why I house-rule that sorcerers have 5 extra spells--one each of levels 1 through 5, that they pick from a choice of two for each level according to their specialty, e.g. fire, thunder, wild magic. But that's where I stop because now I've seen them in action. I think this is a much more balanced choice that simply massively expanding their spell list for all sorcerers. Expand their list a little bit for their particular specialty and give them a few more spells known because they have too few right now, but not so much that playing a wizard seems absolutely gimped. Versatility is a wizard's domain and should remain so.

again, is that class feature [quickened] really so exciting that it justifies a sorcerer having such a bad spell list on their own?

In real estate, they have an expression: "location, location, location" because it is probably the single greatest factor affecting the desirability of a property and it's just so important. In D&D, I would say the expression is "action economy, action economy, action economy". Yes. It's that exciting. Do you not find a ton of people dipping two levels of fighter for one thing--action surge? The most popular sorcerer metamagics in my personal experience seem to be twinned and quickened for that reason. The rest are icing or may fit better for a certain flavor of sorcerer. For instance, I saw one guy going with a more subterfuge sorcerer rather than a blasty one and he took things like Detect Thoughts and Subtle Spell. I feel like I'd have a blast with subtle spell in a campaign that valued plenty of role-playing and wasn't too combat-focused.

twinned haste is giving two people a single extra attack for the most part. that's nice and all, but a non-twinned hypnotic pattern can do functionally better by giving you an extra full turn over a bunch of enemies.

They're two different things for two different goals. HP is one of the best crowd control spells in the game. You do it when you're outnumbered and just want to dwindle the numbers. It's also situational. You'll want to use it when enemies won't have a good save vs. it (or immunity) and when they're not necessarily smart enough to wake each other up, though I admit you still burn some of their actions so it's not a total waste.

haste is worth the spell slot, but unfortunately not generally your concentration slot. charm is seldom worth either, twinned or otherwise, in 5th edition, at least for PCs.

Wow. WOW. I just feel like you have to have not seen Haste in action very much to say that. It's obscene. Again, it's a different use. It's not for CC so much as just amping up the both offensive and defensive powers of your group, particularly when twinned. Twinned Haste is my go-to for boss fights. It's so good it's often worth having the sorcerer run away and hide if that's what he needs to do to maintain concentration. If you have two hard-hitting melee folks, you're massively increasing their damage. One hit every turn is due to YOU. That's YOUR damage. It may not seem is obviously direct and glorious as shooting fire out of your hands, but I assure you your teammates are going to love you for it. Meanwhile, you also raised their AC and made them far more maneuverable on the battlefield. You practically turned both of them into monks.

I realize the buff is SO good that smart enemies will try to target you, so it's going to be somewhat situational, but that's where some good tactics come in including deciding when it's good to use. If a boss has tons of minions to send after you while tanks keep him occupied, it's trickier, for instance. If you don't have a good hiding spot, say around the corner of the rooms entrance to peek out, blast, and duck again, for instance. Alternatively, you put one of them on yourself and another on your hardest-hitting melee. Now you almost have Quickened for free each round and it's easier for you to maintain concentration because your AC went up and now you can blaze around the battlefield and find hiding spots and outrun enemies easier, staying out of melee range. Or stick one on a monk and now he has FIVE chances per turn to stun a really tough enemy.

TL;DR version--if you don't like twinned Haste, you're not doing it right.

demons are fairly tough. you may want to try using knowledge rolls to find out what their bad saves are. radiant damage is unfortunately quite improbable for you any time soon (not until level 11, and then it's 1/day). they probably have bad int saves, if you have phantasmal force *that* being twinned can help. if they don't have truesight.

But he can't twin it because he's JUST a wizard; not a sorcerer.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-11, 11:20 AM

no, the feature is that you can use your action for whatever you want except for the main thing that your class revolves around entirely.

it's amazing for, say, a paladin/sorcerer multiclass, especially with SCAG, because now you can use greenflame or booming blade as a bonus action and do 2 regular attacks (via extra action) with your regular action. as a sorcerer, well, it certainly is not by any means useless (and some spells make it quite good), but it also isn't exactly awe-inspiring in it's usefulness either most of the time.

again, is that class feature really so exciting that it justifies a sorcerer having such a bad spell list on their own?

Assuming that a feature which does not increase DPR is worthless is a somewhat naive approach to combat. In real games, there are tons of situations where the non-attack non-spell actions are useful, especially if magic items are in play. Dodge/Disengage by themselves are amazing survival tools. A wizard could misty step away from an opponent in melee and then only cast a cantrip that round, whereas a sorcerer could disengage, move away, and then quicken fireball.

Furthermore,it's not the only metamagic option you get, and each metamagic option (or at least most of them) has a fairly large number of situations where it would be useful.

As far as the spell list goes - is the Sorcerer spell list actually bad, or is it just that people keep comparing it to the Wizard list, which is uncharacteristically amazing?

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 11:41 AM

Honest question for Kryx--have you done any homebrew to buff wizards? As it is, your sorcerers now have almost as many spells known as a wizard has prepared and access to the full wizard spell list (which btw, might actually break something beyond just class balance issues because I suspect there are spells that the designers really did not want mixed with metamagic). They're really hedging in on a wizard's versatility. A big part of a wizard's versatility is in their spell list, a conscious design decision. Also a wizard has to be poor to gain the full benefit of their main class feature, unlike a sorcerer. I can't imagine playing a wizard who is not constantly broke maintaining their spellbook. Meanwhile, the wizard's versatility in being able to prepare spells is still limited by the fact that he has to somehow predict what spells he will need a day ahead of time. I feel like that's something that's lacking in their class, e.g. the ability to occasionally cast something they haven't prepared or at least be able to spend some out-of-combat time short of 8 hours resting to swap out a spell. For instance, you realize you REALLY need a knock spell right now. It seems reasonable that you might have to spend a little time preparing it but not that you can't actually do it until the next day.

I would definitely feel severely out-classed if I were a wizard in one of your games and there were a sorcerer in the group. It would be downright depressing.

I've already expanded sorcerer's spells known by five spells which also expands the list of what's available to them depending on their type. I'm planning to buff wizards a tad as well, either by allowing them to once/day cast a spell they haven't prepared or by allowing them to swap out a spell with 5 mins of studying their spellbook or something along those lines. I'm also cutting scribing costs roughly in half because I don't think a primary class feature should make you a pauper. It already bothers me that clerics and druids are already more flexible in some ways than a wizard despite having some really fantastic other class features and general less squishiness despite being full casters--medium or heavy armor, better weapons, access to full spell list automatically and for free, domain spells. Did I mention frackin' DOMAIN SPELLS? Grr..

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 12:31 PM

enemies losing their actions is functionally the same as you getting extra actions. you act more often than them either way. heck, even the mobility and defensive improvements are similar, since enemies that are under hypnotic pattern do not move and do not attack.

and i don't bring along a full caster for DPR. they're not good at it. if i wanted to bring as much DPR as haste, i could have just made another fighter. twinned haste will give your party 2 extra attacks per round, well another level 5 fighter will give you up to 3 more attacks per round (potentially 4 depending on feats, maneuvers, etc). and unlike haste, you can use it in every encounter, and losing concentration won't cost half your party their actions.

if you're bringing a sorcerer along because you're that excited about twinned haste as a DPR increase, just make another fighter. the DPR increase will be larger, more sustainable (seriously, a level 3 spell slot and 3 sorcerery points is not cheap), less risky, and you'll actually get to participate in fights rather than hang around in a hallway hoping none of the boss's minions responding to the sound of battle in the room you're standing just outside the entrance to show up and leave you with no front line.

edit: the wizard at least has the option of preparing knock for another day (though why you wouldn't just carry around thieve's tools and use them without proficiency is beyond me). they retain a massive advantage in versatility both by virtue of their ritual spellcasting ability (a wizard with detect magic in their book but not prepared can cast it as a ritual... if i'm not mistaken, even if a sorcerer took dispel magic, they wouldn't be able to cast it as a ritual, so it would burn both a precious spell known and a level 1 spell slot to use it) and their ability to switch out spells. yes, it requires some foresight to pick good spells for a wizard. it requires that for a sorcerer, too, except the sorcerer has to plan out their needs for all the time, while the wizard can plan out their needs for tomorrow. i'm not seeing where the sorcerer somehow gains more versatility than a wizard or even close to it by having the full spell list, particularly since the spells kryx is handing out are not freely chosen. the wizard can afford to take spells that are extremely good in specific situations, while the sorcerer generally speaking can't. there is a lot of value in knowing that you're going to be doing a lot of climbing tomorrow so you prepare feather fall when you generally wouldn't bother, or that you're going into a crypt that is probably full of undead so you likely won't need sleep. a wizard has that luxury. a sorcerer doesn't. that kind of versatility extends throughout the wizard's entire career, and the sorcerer can't touch that with or without a larger spell list (and again, it seems specious at best to argue that one spell is easier to learn and cast than another when they both cost the exact same resources to learn or cast as any other spell of the same level; a wizard learns wall of stone *exactly* as easily as they learn any other 5th level spell unless one or the other is from their specialized school. the wizard doesn't have to do extra practice to learn wall of force, nor does the wizard need to spend more time, or money, or a higher spell slot, or give up an extra spell in their spellbook, to learn wall of force instead of wall of stone).

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 01:14 PM

if you're bringing a sorcerer along because you're that excited about twinned haste as a DPR increase, just make another fighter.

That's a bit silly. You speak as if I made a sorcerer to do this one tactic and only this one tactic. It's just one of many things you can do with the right combination of spells and metamagic to tailor to a particular situation, but it's a really good one. Meanwhile we benefit from all the other things a sorcerer is good for in a variety of contexts. This is yet another post obsessing over DPR. If that's all you care about then yes. Make a melee char.

And he hasn't yet needed to go run and hide. I merely pointed out that in some contexts the spell is so helpful that it can actually be worth doing that if you absolutely find it necessary. The time I played a friend's sorcerer, he hasted himself and a party member and it saved his life and completely turned the combat around reducing the number of targets that were even available for the Galeb Dur to use his charging attacks on. And just having one more slow melee char in that situation would still have resulted in a painful fight with a Galeb Dur and his two pet boulders rolling around and doing high damage charge attacks and we wouldn't have had a sorcerer who was handy for a variety of other situations. The sorcerer was confidently and easily able to stay completely out of attack range from the monster and his boulders and continue to blast while the melee char did more damage as well.

i'm not seeing where the sorcerer somehow gains more versatility than a wizard or even close to it by having the full spell list, particularly since the spells kryx is handing out are not freely chosen.

Not quite chosen freely but sort of because they're choosing a sorcerer type and getting spells that are tailored to fit their choice. That's one fix of his I like and believe is called for. And the sorcerer has metamagic which already offers some versatility, and the Kryx's sorcerers get a lot more of them on top of having access to the wizard's spell list and also have more spells per day than a wizard if they want. That's assuming they don't instead use those tons of extra sorcery points on metamagics, which they should because metamagic is fracking awesome.

the wizard can afford to take spells that are extremely good in specific situations, while the sorcerer generally speaking can't. there is a lot of value in knowing that you're going to be doing a lot of climbing tomorrow so you prepare feather fall when you generally wouldn't bother, or that you're going into a crypt that is probably full of undead so you likely won't need sleep.

Yes, I of course acknowledge that particular area of versatility. It would be nice if they had some limited amount of potential to deal with something unexpected.

(and again, it seems specious at best to argue that one spell is easier to learn and cast than another when they both cost the exact same resources to learn or cast as any other spell of the same level; a wizard learns wall of stone *exactly* as easily as they learn any other 5th level spell unless one or the other is from their specialized school. the wizard doesn't have to do extra practice to learn wall of force, nor does the wizard need to spend more time, or money, or a higher spell slot, or give up an extra spell in their spellbook, to learn wall of force instead of wall of stone).

It's not about it being easier to learn. The sorcerer doesn't ever really "learn". He doesn't study to do what he's doing. It's just about them having different flavors. Wizard magic is a science that allows them to do careful preparation ahead of time to create an elaborate, intricate, and lasting effect. Sorcery is an art where they personally shape primal power right on the spot. Fluff-wise, imagine that the wizard has constructed connections to creatures from other planes and given them careful instructions and when he casts he is calling upon them to build a cage of force and help him maintain it. The sorcerer is digging into sheer force of will and shouting "Flame on!" and then through sheer force of will, he mentally shapes the fire so that it shoots into two different directions at once. By design, there are wizardy type sells and sorcery type spells and they are intended to be different. The wizard is more versatile and utility based and sorcerer has more sheer power and is more adaptable on the spot in terms of metamagic.

So sorcerer spells would compare in total power and but tend to be less elaborate and complex. The idea is when you build a sorcerer, you rarely just pick a spell for what it does on its own. You pick spell/metamagic combinations to plan for particular situations--like the Haste example above. Like, take Earthen Grasp and cast it the first round. Then you can do that with your action each round and cast another full spell with Quickened each round thereafter and attacks spells are more effective against the creatures you grabbed. Take Detect Thoughts and Subtle Spell. Now when you're in the middle of some negotiation, you can be reading surface thoughts without so much as an eyebrow raise. Take Subtle Spell and Major Image and you haven't clued anyone in that the creature who just walked in was your creation. That's a combo that's endlessly useful in a variety of situations with some imagination both in combat and out. With a sorcerer, you pick something and you get really crazy good at it. You're a specialist who's very adaptable in a variety of situations.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-11, 02:09 PM

I've already expanded sorcerer's spells known by five spells which also expands the list of what's available to them depending on their type. I'm planning to buff wizards a tad as well, either by allowing them to once/day cast a spell they haven't prepared or by allowing them to swap out a spell with 5 mins of studying their spellbook or something along those lines. I'm also cutting scribing costs roughly in half because I don't think a primary class feature should make you a pauper. It already bothers me that clerics and druids are already more flexible in some ways than a wizard despite having some really fantastic other class features and general less squishiness despite being full casters--medium or heavy armor, better weapons, access to full spell list automatically and for free, domain spells. Did I mention frackin' DOMAIN SPELLS? Grr..

And...

Just how does much closer in spell capacity does that get them when compared to the wizard?

Also, a character's bank account is highly dependent on DM, the wizards I have seen are not quite as (perpetually?) broke as you are.

Although I really like what Kryx posted, it's much closer to what I think sorcerers should be, (Thank you very much Kryx), would you be more satisfied if sorcerers got access to a few schools of magic from the wizards list, depending on what inclination their natural acuity for magic is? They would have less spell capacity than the wizard, but would be able to fit a much wider range of concepts that sorcerers should (IMO) be able to take.

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 02:19 PM

Just how does much closer in spell capacity does that get them when compared to the wizard?

A lot closer than the designers thought they should be, but about where I think they should be. I like this aspect of Kryx's changes, and I think there were one or two other minor changes that I thought were fine also.

Also, a character's bank account is highly dependent on DM, the wizards I have seen are not quite as (perpetually?) broke as you are.

To be sure. I play a lot of Adventurer's League games and the amount of treasure is fairly predictable. I think it gives a pretty good idea of how much treasure the designers expected characters to get, and I can say that based on that, wizards are likely going to be very poor and still might not be able to scribe all the spells they find. And that's assuming they found all the spells they wanted and didn't have to go actually try to buy scrolls off other players or negotiate with other wizards to pay them to let them copy something or whatnot. It seems to be a design choice for wizards to be poor and I think that sucks.

would you be more satisfied if sorcerers got access to a few schools of magic from the wizards list, depending on what inclination their natural acuity for magic is? They would have less spell capacity than the wizard, but would be able to fit a much wider range of concepts that sorcerers should (IMO) be able to take.

I've stated where I stand. I think Kryx's extra spells based on sorcerer type are a good fix. It just seems to me that Kryx really likes sorcerers and is not sufficiently taking into account the opportunity costs that they are understandably expected to pay. Every class pays an opportunity cost and picking a sorcerer over a wizard is supposed to mean that you gave up wizard benefits for sorcerer benefits.

This whole notion of just sweepingly combining their spell lists just seems right out. It makes my head explode. Balance issues aside, I'm quite confident that there are many spells that the designers generally did not want to be combined with metamagic, much like with warlocks. They left many spells of their list and then gave them as 1/day invocations because they thought it would potentially be broken to cast them 2-4 times per short rest. I can possibly see how they might have gotten excessive with their limitations and consider adding some spells but I would definitely not just give them access to the wizard list. I think each spell has to be considered for how it interacts with metamagic and whether it fits the flavor of a sorcerer.

Kryx

2015-12-11, 02:40 PM

Honest question for Kryx--have you done any homebrew to buff wizards? As it is, your sorcerers now have almost as many spells known as a wizard has prepared.
Let's put some numbers here: Wizards get 44+ spells known (limited by gold) while a Sorcerer (even with my houserules) gets 15 spells known of his choosing and 10 from a limited list. It isn't even close.
The whole point of the buff is to make a Sorcerer competitive with a Wizard. If you consider the two classes as already competitive then don't use my buffs. Though Wizards need absolutely no help as they are considered a Tier 1 class. Sorcerers are Tier 2. My buffs do not make the Sorcerer better than the Wizard by any stretch.

This has been discussed in the thread where I originally proposed these rules. Read Sorcerous Origin Bonus Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerous-Origin-Bonus-Spells) for the debate.
I don't feel up to the effort to debate them again, especially based on the current understanding of the differences (no offense).

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 03:05 PM

sorcerers are not awful. but there is quite a bit of room before sorcerers catch up to wizards.

in addition to their spell list, wizards have excellent class features that are roughly similar in value to the class features a sorcerer gets. sorcerers have lost ground relative to wizards since 3.x, and they were already a tier behind back then. fortunately, tiers are a lot less relevant in 5th (everything is at least close enough that you can play the same game and not have one guy suck royally no matter what class they choose), but sorcerers are still behind.

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 03:12 PM

fluff-wise, i am lacking in experience to be able to tell you whether it is easier to create a wall of force or a cone of cold, because they're both equally impossible and are based on forces which we do not understand because they do not exist in the real world and we thus have way of measuring them beyond what we see in game.

and what we see in game is that the wizard has *exactly* the same amount of effort involved to use magic to make a cone of cold or a wall of force. it is not harder, or easier, it is exactly the same difficulty. it is not harder to control, nor is it easier to control, one or the other.

Fwiffo86

2015-12-11, 04:18 PM

I feel like that's something that's lacking in their class, e.g. the ability to occasionally cast something they haven't prepared or at least be able to spend some out-of-combat time short of 8 hours resting to swap out a spell. For instance, you realize you REALLY need a knock spell right now. It seems reasonable that you might have to spend a little time preparing it but not that you can't actually do it until the next day.

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later. I would double check either the prep rules in Wizard or the Magic rules in the Magic section of the PHB. I'm AFB myself, so I cannot verify this. Pretty sure I'm correct though.

Flashy

2015-12-11, 04:23 PM

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later. I would double check either the prep rules in Wizard or the Magic rules in the Magic section of the PHB. I'm AFB myself, so I cannot verify this. Pretty sure I'm correct though.

"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest" is the PHB's only comment on the subject. It goes on to talk about how long the preparation takes you, but there's nothing about having the ability to prepare spells outside the context of a long rest.

georgie_leech

2015-12-11, 04:24 PM

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later. I would double check either the prep rules in Wizard or the Magic rules in the Magic section of the PHB. I'm AFB myself, so I cannot verify this. Pretty sure I'm correct though.

You might be thinking of 3.X, where there was such an ability.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-11, 04:38 PM

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later. I would double check either the prep rules in Wizard or the Magic rules in the Magic section of the PHB. I'm AFB myself, so I cannot verify this. Pretty sure I'm correct though.

These days you select which spells you know for the day, but you can cast them freely from the spell slots.

So you don't prepare 3 shields and 2 magic missiles, you just prepare shield and magic missile and decide how often you want to cast each one as the game goes on.

Fwiffo86

2015-12-11, 04:41 PM

Forum Explorer

2015-12-11, 04:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later. I would double check either the prep rules in Wizard or the Magic rules in the Magic section of the PHB. I'm AFB myself, so I cannot verify this. Pretty sure I'm correct though.

I double checked, you are 100% incorrect on this matter. Like Georgie said, you might be thinking of 3.5.

You can prepare less spells, but that just means you have less spells known to cast. (It does take less time, if you are somehow being rushed that every minute counts)

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-11, 05:38 PM

Ask Your DMTM about how the double range on cantrips involving attacks with a weapon interact with your weapon's range.

It wouldn't increase the weapon's range. But it would allow you to do is use a reach weapon for things like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade because normally the target has to be within spell range (5 feet) and Distant Spell would double the spell range to 10 feet.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-11, 07:01 PM

This whole notion of just sweepingly combining their spell lists just seems right out. It makes my head explode. Balance issues aside, I'm quite confident that there are many spells that the designers generally did not want to be combined with metamagic, much like with warlocks. They left many spells of their list and then gave them as 1/day invocations because they thought it would potentially be broken to cast them 2-4 times per short rest. I can possibly see how they might have gotten excessive with their limitations and consider adding some spells but I would definitely not just give them access to the wizard list. I think each spell has to be considered for how it interacts with metamagic and whether it fits the flavor of a sorcerer.

Just how many head-a-sploding combinations do you see though? Most abuse could be sifted right out with a quick and proper DM response to said abuse, and just make sure the player understands before-hand not to intrude on another players domain and not to attempt to hog all the spotlight, which is just basic table etiquette to be honest.

I still think that wizards and sorcerers should have a roughly equal spell list to one another, although I do not think it should be the same one, I think wizards' spells should be on average more complex than a sorcerer's, but sorcerers should not have such a limited selection just cause they use an innate form of what wizards do, I think their spells should indeed be more simple on average, but that shouldn't arbitrarily mean dramatically smaller spell lists for the sorcerer. I understand where you are coming from though, I just think you are undervaluing the wizards capacity for spells without the considerably larger list.

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 08:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that a Wizard (or any other prep casters for that matter) doesn't have to prep all of their spells for the day at once. I remember reading that they can prep some, and leave "empty" slots to be filled in later.

Prepared casters never have empty slots anymore since casting doesn't empty them and you don't have to prepare spells every day anymore. Preparing means you're swapping spells out. So alas, you cannot leave slots empty and if you could, it wouldn't help, since you can only prepare spells once right after a long rest.

Just how many head-a-sploding combinations do you see though?

I certainly haven't gone through the list spell-by-spell to look for things that would be broken when combined with metamagic or that to decide whether a particular wizard spell should be added to the sorcerer list. If a player came to me and said they really, really wanted a certain wizard spell and didn't know why they shouldn't get it, I would certainly be willing to consider it on a case-by-case basis, but I don't want to just chuck what the designers worked on together for years on a whim.

In all these nitpicky comparisons, I feel like the elephant in the room is being overlooked. Sorcerers have fracking METAMAGIC. It's their defining thing just as versatility is a wizards. They can do it. Wizards can't. Comparing either to 3.x wizards and sorcerers is just silly. 3.x wizards could use metamagic then. If you keep comparing the two without acknowledging that massive difference, it just gets silly. It honestly bothers me that sorcerers don't get True Polymorph (and a number of other really cool spells) but I have to wonder how messed up things could get if you could twin it in a game when no class is supposed to be able to cast a 9th level spell twice a day.

And the spells known number? I just don't see a massive advantage to potentially being able to prepare from a list of more spells when you have enough spells known to have all the best most amazing spells that you really want AND can attach metamagic to any of them. And then you cram so many sorcery points on a sorcerer that they don't even have to use discretion. They will practically have enough points to metamagic every single spell they cast.

If a sorcerer has 25 spells known, I bet his list would match come damn close to a wizard's prepared list 90% of the time. The wizard might occasionally swap out a few spells to tailor them for a mission, but that does not make up for not being able to ever do METAMAGIC, particularly when this massive overhaul also lets sorcerers recover spell points every single short rest (almost the main warlock feature right there without having to dip lock).

If you let me have 25 spells known, that's a damn lot, comparable to any other class with a fixed list, and you let me pick any spell a wizard can prepare, AND you let me have metamagic, AND you let me have so many fracking points I can metamagic practically every spell I cast or else use them to cast more spells per day than a wizard, AND you let me learn practically every metamagic as I progress and not even have to pick some that suit a particular sorcery style, then I would never play a gimped wizard in your game.

The "amazing" wizard features that keep coming up just aren't really that big a deal. Ritual casting is a handy thing, but most casters have plenty of slots after a certain point anyway and it's not a big deal, not compared to metamagic which can actually substantially affect DPR and action economy. They can swap out spells, but frankly they will mostly have the same favorite spells prepared most of the time anyway. Again, not a major game changer on its own. Do they get class features at some levels? Yes, but so do sorcerers, like flying without casting a spell or having to concentrate.

Sorcerers do need some buffs. I think they could stand to have a few more sorcery points. They could stand to have a few more spells known though still fewer than most full casters. They could stand to have better end-game abilities and I agree that's when wizards get some clearly better abilities. That said, most of us don't ever get to play at 17th level plus so I don't think it makes sense to give too much weight to that. Most of us playing wizards will never get signature spells. If I find myself in that position, I will totally vote for the sorcerer's end-game stuff getting a buff.

MaxWilson

2015-12-11, 08:58 PM

MaxWilson

2015-12-11, 09:39 PM

Just how many head-a-sploding combinations do you see though? Most abuse could be sifted right out with a quick and proper DM response to said abuse, and just make sure the player understands before-hand not to intrude on another players domain and not to attempt to hog all the spotlight, which is just basic table etiquette to be honest.

I still think that wizards and sorcerers should have a roughly equal spell list to one another, although I do not think it should be the same one, I think wizards' spells should be on average more complex than a sorcerer's, but sorcerers should not have such a limited selection just cause they use an innate form of what wizards do, I think their spells should indeed be more simple on average, but that shouldn't arbitrarily mean dramatically smaller spell lists for the sorcerer. I understand where you are coming from though, I just think you are undervaluing the wizards capacity for spells without the considerably larger list.

Extended Planar Binding, Extended Animate Dead, Twin Foresight spring readily to mind as potentially abusive.

SharkForce

2015-12-11, 10:26 PM

Extended Planar Binding, Extended Animate Dead, Twin Foresight spring readily to mind as potentially abusive.

extend doesn't extend anything to longer than 24 hours. twinned foresight is burning 9 sorcery points and, more to the point, is not a wish or a true polymorph or a shapechange, and is frankly a less worrying use of a level 9 spell slot as a result.

yes, sorcerers get metamagic. that's quite good. but wizards get to do cool things with their class abilities too, like raise dead 1/day, a free use of polymorph, and the ability to turn things into different materials with little to no regard for rarity. or the ability to use various mind control spells (twinned, free of charge) on multiple targets without suffering the drawback those charm spells usually have. or the ability to make an illusion of just about anything temporarily real. or the ability to just tell an enemy what they rolled several times a day and a bunch of bonus spell slots for using their primary school of magic. plus of course wizards also get their base features, including a significant number of spell slots returned per day on a short rest (and level 1, 2, and 3 spell slots are a powerful resource even at level 20), setting aside their awesome level 18 and 20 abilities (mostly because being level 18 and 20 abilities they don't come into play often).

yes, sorcerers get metamagic, and metamagic is quite good. it is also quite limited in use; a sorcerer that takes quicken and twin at level 3 can barely use each of those things once during a day, by using up their precious resources, and probably has to split those sorcery points for use with archetype abilities as well. even at level 20, quickening a single spell once burns 10% of those resources, and the only way to get more is by spending your spell slots, and no they are not an insignificant resource no matter what your level is because of spells like shield, mirror image, web, counterspell, etc, which all have relevant uses no matter what level you are. every level 1 spell slot you turn into a sorcery point is a level 1 spell slot you are *not* going to have available when (not if) you get attacked to give yourself a shield. of course, you can burn your higher level spell slots if you must, but now you didn't sacrifice a level 1 spell slot only any more... you blew a level 1 spell slot and a level 2, 3, 4, or whatever spell slot for that one sorcery point.

as to taking away the warlock's main feature... no, not really. by level 20, the sorcerer kryx put together is getting 5 sorcery points in a short rest. that could buy a single level 3 spell slot. not even close to the same in magnitude, even if the sorcerer did turn them into spell slots (which they probably won't, because even in kryx's revision sorcerers still largely only have one class feature that makes them remotely worthwhile, and you'd have to be either extremely desperate or foolish to trade that in for a spell slot). then that even ignores invocations entirely, which are frankly far more what makes the warlock than their recharging spell slots. the first thing i think of when i consider warlocks are things like eldritch blast (which is only amazing with invocations), devil's sight, at-will silent image and disguise self, etc. plus of course the warlocks are also not exactly devoid of interesting features from their pacts and patrons either.

on a side note, i wouldn't describe metamagic as being unavailable to wizards. it usually isn't worth giving up wizard class features for metamagic to do so (which should tell you something, because sorcerer builds frequently - perhaps even more often than not - are delighted to give up sorcerer class features once metamagic has been gained, but there's a lot of debate about whether it's worth giving up even a single level of wizard). but all it takes to steal the great majority of the sorcerer's identity is a 3 level dip. a 3-level dip of wizard won't get you very much of what you wanted out of wizard, but a 3-level dip into sorcerer probably gains you about 90% of what you wanted from the class in the first place. the sorcerer has *far* more to fear from the warlock stealing their identity than the warlock has to worry about the sorcerer stealing theirs.

djreynolds

2015-12-11, 10:30 PM

Right now I'm a 7th level abjurer wizard, and sometimes a sorcerer shows up and I find what she does is awesome. Twinning spells and empower are just awesome. It feels like the fighter's action surge. When you need it, the sorcerer can go to town. The wizard, and perhaps my own personality, is much more pragmatic and controlling. And though a wizard has utility spells and rituals, a sorcerer can really just get by with what they have. It is a very good class in play, perhaps not on paper, but in play they can change a battle.

And demons suck and we fight them all the time. You really need a cleric and a paladin with them. Radiant damage is very good.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-12, 08:37 AM

So, any other discrepancies in the spell lists? Perusing through the book I found that I think Bards could justifiably have Fog Cloud (great for stage effects too). Any other individual spells you think could fit in classes they are not in?

SharkForce

2015-12-12, 02:51 PM

well I think I already mentioned enhance attribute not being on the wizard list and I feel it should, but if I did it was in a wall of text, so i'll go ahead and repeat it here. I think it should be in for legacy reasons; strength and cat's grace were both originally wizard spells in the first place.

visitor

2015-12-12, 03:46 PM

I've thought there isn't a great spell selection for evil/destructive clerics. There are a bunch of necromantic spells that would fit, but aren't included for whatever reason. Circle of Death would be a nice thematic nasty cleric spell. And back in OD&D and AD&D Finger of Death was the cleric's penultimate spell to compete with all the killer spells the Magic User got--and now its Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard only. That makes me sad.

Dalebert

2015-12-14, 01:46 PM

Something to see through magical darkness. I feel like every caster that has Darkness should have a means to see through it. There used to be Ebon Eyes. It was very limited but it served that purpose. I consider it one of this editions major flaws that they made this the exclusive domain of warlocks. That combined with how front-loaded warlocks are makes them an extremely popular class to dip. But flavor-wise, I feel like it's weird for so many characters to also be a little bit warlock. It's a min-maxxy thing that happens that often seems to conflict with a character concept but it's just too tempting. You dip three levels of lock with a sorcerer, for instance, and you've now got the sorcerer capstone (albeit one that should be better) at character level 6.

SharkForce

2015-12-14, 03:15 PM

true seeing lets you see through magical darkness. kinda pricey in spell slots, but there you have it.

Strill

2015-12-20, 01:44 AM

Kryx's sorcerer houserules may make Sorcerers on par with wizards, but I don't think they make them distinct or interesting. Sorcerers in 3.5 were special because of their flexibility. I think any changes should reflect that. That's why I think Sorcerers should get Spell Points.

In addition to making them more flexible, spell points also help with their limited number of spells known. They don't need to pick a spell of each spell level, so they don't need to pick two spells that do the same thing.

PrinceRenais

2015-12-20, 05:45 PM

I did some quick searches through for what other people said before posting, in case the point was already made, but it seems I'm alone on this one. Personally, I'm a great fan of quick travel spells like Teleport and Teleportation Circle. Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards all get it... But Warlocks get stuck with just Plane Shift, the cross-dimensional version of Teleport? And Bards don't get Plane Shift? Teleport and Teleportation Circle aren't even ritual spells, so not even the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation provides access to either of them.

The worst part, in my opinion, is that at level 20 warlocks still can't mimic Teleport without a long rest in some other plane of existence, because of the way Mystic Arcanum work.

In my campaign, the party is an unusual combination of a Tiefling [fluff: Godborn] Pact of the Tome Warlock [most people think I'm a wizard, hehe] and an Aasimar [fluff: Godborn] Paladin of Vengeance combined with a bunch of fighter NPCs. We serve The Azure King [A ridiculously large legendary blue dragon] and have been traveling in generally small groups to deal with problems in the countryside while, in our down time, running the recently revived nation under the Dragon's rule. This is the only campaign I can imagine myself building a Permanent Teleportation Circle, and I can't even do that because I didn't find out about my lack of access to Teleportation circles until level 6. [If anyone cares, I'm a commoner-turned-Marquis, and the paladin has always been the next-in-line for her family's Duchy, should we reclaim it from the hostile nation to our west that wiped out her family].

Now, in theory, a warlock might be able to get Teleportation Circle by taking a level or two of Wizard or Sorcerer after level 9. The multiclass spellcasting should, by my understanding, lets one use one's pact magic spell slots to qualify for level 5 spells, via scrolls or during one's second level of Wizard/Sorcerer. That unfortunately delays one's Mystic Arcanum and Invocations, and on top of that, it makes it entirely impossible to get Eldritch Master should they ever get to level 20+. It might be worth the levels, though. Could go for the Evocation Arcane Tradition and get the Spell Shape feature. Evard's Black Tentacles would especially benefit them. Conjuration's Arcane Tradition is also interesting, though probably not as worthwhile given the frequency of combat in my campaigns.

One could also just see if their GM would provide a houseruling for one or both to be labeled as rituals. Teleportation Circle already takes a minute to cast. Heck, I'd be happy if it took an hour to cast as a warlock. It's still faster than traveling on horseback, and as a ritual, doesn't -- right. That's right! I almost forgot! As a ritual, it doesn't cost a spell slot. I guess it shouldn't be a ritual, but I'm still sour about not having it.

Kane0

2015-12-20, 06:11 PM

Like most warlock spells, the most likely reason they don't get teleport spells would be their ability to spam them with their short rest slots.

Its sad, but the ease of which it could be abused is a good reason to not include such spells on the default warlock list. I've come across a lot of DMs that allow additions to the warlock list though, using other methods of curbing the potential for abuse (such as the patron disallowing too frequent use of them for example).

JumboWheat01

2015-12-20, 06:41 PM

I feel the smaller spell list is really most noticeable if you're not playing either a Fire-based Dragon Sorcerer or a Wild Sorcerer. I've always felt sorcerers as more of the "direct solution" casters, killing it fast or controlling it hard, and the lack of spells that synergize with your dragon of choice seem much more noticeable.

Admittedly, I only really have access to the PHB and the EE, I haven't gotten SCAG yet.

PrinceRenais

2015-12-20, 06:51 PM

@Kane0: I could see that being the reason for Teleportation Circle, as that's a 5th level spell, but a warlock can't spam his Mystic Arcanum, so Teleport would've been a fine spell to have on the list. A Warlock would only be able to cast it once per long rest, and he wouldn't be able to ever use his 7th level Mystic Arcanum for anything else. Similar situation for a Wizard, except a Wizard gets two level 7 spell slots at level 20, and could prepare a different spell if they knew they didn't need Teleport that day.

JackPhoenix

2015-12-20, 08:19 PM

I would do it like invocation:

Shadow Gate
Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast Teleportation Circle once using a warlock spell slot.
You can't do so again until you finish a long rest.

Strill

2015-12-20, 09:15 PM

I would do it like invocation:

Shadow Gate
Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast Teleportation Circle once using a warlock spell slot.
You can't do so again until you finish a long rest.

Hell no. We don't need any more of those terrible worthless invocations that cost an invocation and a spell slot.

Kane0

2015-12-20, 09:49 PM

Easy fix for a couple of them is for the invocation to make them add the spell (plus maybe another to make it worth takingg) to your list, or grant it once per day ala a mystic arcanum

SharkForce

2015-12-20, 09:54 PM

just to get this cleared up again: when you multiclass a spellcaster, you treat each class separately when learning spells. it doesn't matter what level of spells you can cast as a warlock. if you are a level 15 warlock and you take a level of wizard, for the purposes of learning spells you are a level 1 wizard. the same is true regardless of what caster class you use. when you have 1 level of wizard, for the purpose of learning spells, you are a level 1 wizard. it doesn't matter what spell slots you have. the multiclass rules explicitly state that for the purpose of learning spells, you treat the classes separately, and the only relevance the single-class spellbook rules have is that you use those rules... as if you had the spell slots of a level 1 wizard, because you treat the classes separately for the purpose of learning spells when you multiclass.

PrinceRenais

2015-12-20, 10:21 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, SharkForce. I didn't check the Multiclass rules, and was just looking at the Wizard class, silly me. There goes that option. With that in mind, Teleport and Teleportation Circle are both out of a Warlock's reach without modification of the class' spell list or adding invocations that function as the spell.

As for the invocation idea described, I agree; Either do the suggested fix and mimic Mystic Arcanum for a particular 5th level spell, OR as another option simply add the spell to the spell list so that it can be used more than once [which in this case is kinda pointless, since you probably won't want to use it more than once or twice a day, but if there were another spell].

Here's a question: As an invocation available once daily, would Teleportation Circle still require the material component, or would it be reasonable to wave the cost in favor of some magical effect akin to Arcane Mark's effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm) [from 3.5, since I don't know of a 5e equivalent and the spell either didn't transfer or changed name]?

solidork

2015-12-20, 11:08 PM

I was really disappointed that Fey Pact Warlocks didn't get Geas, since in my mind that is probably one of the most iconic things that faeries do.

dev6500

2015-12-21, 10:48 AM

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 11:16 AM

Quickened fireball + action retreat is pretty easily replicated with some of the best concentration based buff spells(that many low level casters are likely to use anyway)...

Multiple ways to solve the same problem that do not require metamagic. So a wizard has plenty of ways to retreat in the same round as casting a fireball just like the sorcerer.

Yes, there are spell combos you can prepare ahead of time for escape scenarios by making choices about how you allocate limited resources ahead of time. A wizard will often have some advantage when he has extra info about his environment and enemies ahead of time. A sorcerer, in contrast, has fixed resources but that are more adaptable on the fly. That seems appropriate based on the class design of the two. You pick which style is more appealing.

The sorcerer is the magical equivalent of the witty and fast-thinking swashbuckler who gets cornered and in an instant thinks to slash the rope attached to the chandelier with his sword and grab it and ride it up to the balcony and flashes the ladies behind the bar a winning grin which makes them swoon. The wizard is the magical equivalent of the tactical combatant who sends out a scout if possible and prepares his resources for an ambush or sets up for just the right defense because he found out an enemy is tracking him. He's the guy who spins a long distracting tale outside of combat and then switches the glasses, which was his carefully-thought-out plan all along. "No one challenges a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line! HaaaahahahaHAHAHAHA!!!!" </extra nerdy while slinging little gobules of spit> The ladies behind the bar roll their eyes and maybe throw up a little in their mouths.

Would I like to prepare a combo of spells for a particular escape plan that fits some specific contexts that I may or may not have info about? And would I maybe like to prepare another combo of spells for another scenario or several other possible scenarios that may or may not play out? Every day when preparing spells is a painful calculation. I've yet to want to devote a slot to Expeditious Retreat, something that would go uncast most days, just in case I'm in a TPK scenario because I tend to want spells that will have a little broader use. A low-level caster has very limited slots which makes it painful, and then a high-level caster is paying a substantial opportunity cost for that 2nd level retreat spell, like frackin' Force Cage or Wall of Fire. Some casters will build that into their plans and maybe have better tactical uses for it which justify the precious slot to them. *shrug*

Meanwhile, that life-or-death situation where the entire party had to hastily retreat happened ONE time in a party that had advanced 7 levels together, but the sorcerer was and always is prepared for it via a metamagic that has a myriad of uses in a variety of contexts, that being just one. Twinned Spell and Quicken are always boons to the action economy (see my signature) in practically every combat. On a good day with smooth sailing, the sorcerer is a heavy-hitter who simply gets to do more while the wizard is getting excited about casting that really nasty spell he prepared, possibly to find the enemies already dead by the time his turn comes around. On a bad day, the sorcerer is more prepared for the unexpected.

dev6500

2015-12-21, 11:34 AM

Yes, there are spell combos you can prepare ahead of time for escape scenarios by making choices about how you allocate limited resources ahead of time. A wizard will often have some advantage when he has extra info about his environment and enemies ahead of time. A sorcerer, in contrast, has fixed resources but that are more adaptable on the fly. That seems appropriate based on the class design of the two. You pick which style is more appealing.
.
.
.
Would I like to prepare a combo of spells for a particular escape plan that fits some specific contexts that I may or may not have info about? And would I maybe like to prepare another combo of spells for another scenario or several other possible scenarios that may or may not play out? Every day when preparing spells is a painful calculation. I've yet to want to devote a slot to Expeditious Retreat, something that would go uncast most days, just in case I'm in a TPK scenario because I tend to want spells that will have a little broader use. A low-level caster has very limited slots which makes it painful, and then a high-level caster is paying a substantial opportunity cost for that 2nd level retreat spell, like frackin' Force Cage or Wall of Fire. Some casters will build that into their plans and maybe have better tactical uses for it which justify the precious slot to them. *shrug*

Meanwhile, that life-or-death situation where the entire party had to hastily retreat happened ONE time in a party that had advanced 7 levels together, but the sorcerer was and always is prepared for it via a metamagic that has a myriad of uses in a variety of contexts, that being just one.

Those spell combos do not require planning ahead. A wizard doesn't need to scout the enemy and figure out their strengths to come up with the idea of having a combo of magics prepared for escaping. Wizards can prepare per day more spells than the sorcerer even knows. Setting aside 1 spell prepared for an escape option is basic strategy.

Does a wizard need to plan ahead to have attack spells prepared as well? No.

Planning ahead only helps you pick the best spells for your current enemy. IE, if your enemy turns out to only be non flying monsters, then obviously the wizard prepares fly instead of expeditious retreat. Otherwise, what character doesn't prepare spells for attack, defense, and utility that are helpful all the time?

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 12:01 PM

Wizards can prepare per day more spells than the sorcerer even knows.

Yes. They don't get metamagics that have an exponential impact on the variety of effects they can do with the spells a caster has. A bigger variety of spell options is what they get in exchange for the MASSIVE impact of metamagics.

Setting aside 1 spell prepared for an escape option is basic strategy.

Right. Misty Step and Shield are my personal go-to spells that I will pretty much always have prepared on a wizard. Beyond that and I'm starting to limit my options due to the opportunity cost. There are always painful choices. Combos of spells for particular situations start to get pricey. While the wizard can slowly and mildly make painful choices, the sorcerer frequently gets everything all at once. Do I prepare Fly? It won't help me disengage like Misty Step but it will help me fight flying creatures but it uses an action and it won't help my allies fight flying creatures. Oh, so I could prepare Earthbind to help my allies also against flying creatures, but then do I also prepare Fly and Misty Step? Oh and since Fly doesn't protect against unexpected falls and again not my whole party, I should probably also prepare Feather Fall. But crap, I prepared that the last 4 adventures and never needed it. I just know the whole party will need to descend a cliff or fall into a pit-trap the first time I don't prepare it. Murphy's Law!

I'm just brainstorming the things that you already know are going through your mind when you're preparing spells for an adventure. It takes a LOT of spell slots to achieve the versatility that is built into just a few metamagics.

A sorcerer can get by without Misty Step. He can disengage to save his bacon and Quicken a fireball or a Scorching Ray or a Disintegrate. The wizard can Misty Step to save his bacon and then cast a cantrip... a frackin' cantrip, compared to a **Disintegrate**.

The wizard can have both Scorching Ray prepared for multiple opponents or hit a single opponent hard with Disintegrate. He has to make choices like that AND use up those extra prepared slots to gain such versatility. "Do I spread and do less damage to multiple opponents or hit one HARD?" The sorcerer can just decide to twin the **Disintegrate** or any other single-target spell in his repertoire. He isn't forced to make those painful choices on the spot. "I'll hit two opponents HARD!"

Does a wizard need to plan ahead to have attack spells prepared as well? No.

But which ones? And how many defensive spells and how many attacks spells and for what kinds of situations and enemies? As I said above, painful choices and never the option to choose practically everything all at once like a sorcerer--defend AND destroy, spread damage AND hit hard, or hit hard AND not draw heat to myself (Subtle Spell). Go check the thread about subtle spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472166-Subtle-Spell-is-under-rated). OMG, so much more broadly useful than you'd think at first glance.

I barely gave sorcerers a thought after just reading about them in the PHB. Now that I've actually gotten the chance to test-drive one, I'm eager to make one and try him out.

Strill

2015-12-21, 12:05 PM

Yes. They don't get metamagics that have an exponential impact on the variety of effects they can do with the spells a caster has. A bigger variety of spell options is what they get in exchange for the MASSIVE impact of metamagics.

They get a school perk that's at least on-par with metamagic. It's really the Wizard schools that swing the balance decidedly in favor of Wizards.

The wizard can have both Scorching Ray prepared for multiple opponents or hit a single opponent hard with Disintegrate. He has to make choices like that AND use up those extra prepared slots to gain such versatility. "Do I spread and do less damage to multiple opponents or hit one HARD?" The sorcerer can just decide to twin the **Disintegrate** or any other single-target spell in his repertoire. He isn't forced to make those painful choices on the spot. "I'll hit two opponents HARD!"So let me get this straight. When a Wizard chooses their prepared spells, it's a "hard choice". What then is it called when a Sorcerer chooses their spells known?

A sorcerer can get by without Misty Step. He can disengage to save his bacon and Quicken a fireball or a Scorching Ray or a Disintegrate. The wizard can Misty Step to save his bacon and then cast a cantrip... a frackin' cantrip, compared to a **Disintegrate**.Disengage doesn't accomplish anything. The bad guy can just run up and attack you again next turn. You'd be better off standing still and saving your sorcery points. Misty Step lets you outrace the enemy, or pass through obstacles that they can't.

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 12:15 PM

They get a school perk that's at least on-par with metamagic.

These are all judgement calls, but I strongly disagree. I can't think of any school perks that I would not trade out for the metamagics sorcerers get. It seems to me folks are severely downplaying the impact of MM.

So let me get this straight. When a Wizard chooses their prepared spells, it's a "hard choice". What then is it called when a Sorcerer chooses their spells known?

Of course there are both tough choices and I personally feel sorcerers should have a little more spells known and access to a few more spells. That said, I still want to play one as-is. It's a different style of play. No class is supposed to get everything. They all have to make difficult choices. And MM makes those limited spells a lot more versatile and just flat-out stronger and more useful, particularly in a game where action economy rules.

dev6500

2015-12-21, 12:30 PM

Yes. They don't get metamagics that have an exponential impact on the variety of effects they can do with the spells a caster has. A bigger variety of spell options is what they get in exchange for the MASSIVE impact of metamagics.
.
.
.

But which ones? And how many defensive spells and how many attacks spells and for what kinds of situations and enemies? As I said above, painful choices and never the option to choose practically everything all at once like a sorcerer--defend AND destroy, spread damage AND hit hard, or hit hard AND not draw heat to myself (Subtle Spell). Go check the thread about subtle spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472166-Subtle-Spell-is-under-rated). OMG, so much more broadly useful than you'd think at first glance.

I barely gave sorcerers a thought after just reading about them in the PHB. Now that I've actually gotten the chance to test-drive one, I'm eager to make one and try him out.

I think you are requiring more of the wizard then of the sorcerer.

Let's look at 5th level when both of them have the possibility of fireball. Sorc has 6 spells known. He also has 5 sorcery points which is basically 2 quickened spells. Other than fireball he has 5 spells to choose from. Twice per day he can quicken a spell to leave him the option of retreating faster while still being able to cast a non cantrip.

Wizard has 5 + int mod spells prepared per day(so between 8 and 10 spells prepared depending most likely.)
The wizard needs at least 1 defensive spell, of which he has many he can choose from. Likely shield or expeditious retreat are the winners because they help him escape and they cost him very little to use(level 1 spell slot). Fly costs a level 3 spell slot and doesn't necessarily help the wizard any more than expeditious retreat. Furthermore, expeditious retreat does not require much of any prep. Just 1 bonus action in the entire combat in a round where you use a cantrip. Don't know about you but at level 5, I don't have that many spell slots so, I am very likely to have a free round in the middle of combat to throw ER on myself at 0 action loss.

If the wizard prepares just 1 of those 2 spells, he can replicate the same abilities as the twice per day use of quicken that the sorc has and the wizard still has more spells prepared to work with than the sorc. Also, these abilities are generally useful. Low level wizards are squishy and shield as a reaction or bonus action dashes help you control if you are going to receive any damage. Totally worth it all the time for a wizard to have 1 of those 2 spells prepared. Also it keeps, 1st level spells relevant. Another plus. Never had issue fitting those spells into a list of prepared spells. What gets harder is other choices that are more situational. Extra retreat speed or +5 ac are hardly situational. All combats have situations where I wish I had a higher AC or was a little further away from an enemy.

Its not like quickening a fireball and then using your action to dash is going to universally solve all combat situations where the sorc is in danger? Why then do the Wizard options have to be that way?

So the idea that a wizard struggles to get every spell he needs into his spell prepared list when his spell prepared list is larger than a sorcs spells known list does not make any sense to me. If the wizard struggles because of this, what is the sorc experiencing? Because its worse for the sorcerer.

Tanarii

2015-12-21, 12:40 PM

So let me get this straight. When a Wizard chooses their prepared spells, it's a "hard choice". What then is it called when a Sorcerer chooses their spells known?Wizards get more spells prepared , plus daily choice in rearranging, to help mitigate their hard choices. Sorcerers get meta-magic to help mitigate them. IMO they're on par.

I know the post you were responding to doesn't seem to be claiming parity. But I think they are on par for mitigating the hard choices. Just focused on mitigating the hard choices in different ways.

Strill

2015-12-21, 12:54 PM

Wizards get more slots and daily choice to help mitigate their hard choices. Sorcerers get meta-magic to help mitigate them. IMO they're on par.

I know the post you were responding to doesn't seem to be claiming parity. But I think they are on par for mitigating the hard choices. Just focused on mitigating the hard choices in different ways.

If Sorcerers used Spell Points and other casters didn't, I'd agree. Sorcerers could take Fireball, and that could be their one AoE spell. But as-is, Sorcerers need spells of every level, which means that several of their choices are likely going to be redundant. Choosing two spells with the same function but different spell level really eats into their available spells known.

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 01:11 PM

You're straw-manning me a bit here. I'm not trying to argue that a sorcerer is as versatile as a wizard. He shouldn't be. A sorcerer is more focused on doing a few things REALLY well. The wizard is absolutely built around versatility in magic. If you're goal is versatility, you play a wizard (magic versatility) or a bard (magic and everything else versatility). You choose a sorcerer to be a specialist who's amazing at a few things. And if you want to venture a little more out into versatility, you dip a little into bard or warlock (OMG, lock/sorc!!), and the sorcerer is so very well-suited for those dips with little cost by being a charisma caster. Wizard is the only class in the game that really needs int.

I'm simply arguing they're not as gimped as so many want to make them out to be. They can manage around those limitations in versatility fairly well with MM and STILL be the really good focused hard-hitting and effective casters in a particular type of magic as they are built to be. And by the same reasoning, the obvious versatility advantages a wizard has are not AS good as folks are making them out to be, not so much as to make wizards clearly superior by any means.

And as far as only having 5 sorcery points, by level 5 you know very well that most casters are in a comfy zone with spells slots for most adventures and will usually have leftover slots. The sorcerer can convert them. I've seen it in action. When I played him, he had Chromatic Orb for the sake of some adaptability, but unless a creature was resistant to fire, I instead opted to twin a firebolt for 2d10+4 to two different creatures--a much more powerful effect for the SAME cost. An evoker can do it at 10th (when both casters will use cantrips more rarely) but still only ever on one target. It was all he needed to do in most combats to significantly contribute while a wizard would be spending twice the resources and twice the time to dish out that kind of damage.

No, he won't be able to MM every spell. He has to manage resources like any character does, of course. But by the time the poop hit the fan with that last big boss battle and a bajillion minions, he had slots and points to spare for tossing an over-the-shoulder fireball and casually taking out a serious threat while running away and saving his bacon.

dev6500

2015-12-21, 01:38 PM

You're straw-manning me a bit here. I'm not trying to argue that a sorcerer is as versatile as a wizard...

I'm not straw-manning you.

There was a claim that sorcerer's with using quicken metamagic have a trick up their sleeve that a wizard cannot easily replicate. (cast a full spell and still have an action available for things like escaping from danger). So:
1. I showed you multiple ways that a wizard can do just that.
2. I also showed that, its easier for the wizard to accommodate these options into their spells prepared than it is for a sorcerer to fit all their spell selection needs into their spells known.
3. I explained how these options are not rare use niche cases and that it makes a lot of sense for a wizard to prepare these spells as a general form of defense for combat.

I am arguing that quicken does not help the sorcerer as much as you imply. Simple spell selection allows for most if not all the functionality of quicken to be replicated by other spellcasters.

Now twinning certain spells(buffs or debuffs) is another story. A wizard cannot really duplicate the action economy of twinning debuffs or circumvent the concentration limit like that.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-21, 02:03 PM

I'm simply arguing they're not as gimped as so many want to make them out to be. They can manage around those limitations in versatility fairly well with MM and STILL be the really good focused hard-hitting and effective casters in a particular type of magic as they are built to be. And by the same reasoning, the obvious versatility advantages a wizard has are not AS good as folks are making them out to be, not so much as to make wizards clearly superior by any means.

Yeah, I wouldn't say they are absolutely gimped, no class is too horribly in 5e. I could just see them be able to specialize in a few different types of fields, not just blasty ones.

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 02:23 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't say they are absolutely gimped, no class is too horribly in 5e. I could just see them be able to specialize in a few different types of fields, not just blasty ones.

I agree. I house-rule that they get five more spells known according to their archetype and I'm very open to creating new archetypes, one each of levels 1st through 5th, and often those particular spell options come from other class lists so it broadens their list a bit as well (sort of like domain spells). I would also seriously consider adding a few more spells to their list if a player made a case to me and it wouldn't become broken from MM. I don't fully understand why some spells aren't there already. I just haven't taken the time to meticulously go through and preemptively do that. The sorcerer in my game loves her character and didn't ask for any of these changes so it was icing to her as she was picking spells. She was giddy. In significant AL play, I've run into a lot more sorcerers than wizards playing them by the book and with nary a complaint.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-21, 02:24 PM

Just to revisit a discussion from a previous page,

Quickened fireball + action retreat is pretty easily replicated with some of the best concentration based buff spells(that many low level casters are likely to use anyway).

Expeditious retreat + regular fireball.

Fly + regular fireball (fly gives you 60 ft speed).

Or move action away provoking OA and protect yourself casting shield as a reaction and then once out of range cast fireball.

Multiple ways to solve the same problem that do not require metamagic. So a wizard has plenty of ways to retreat in the same round as casting a fireball just like the sorcerer.

Expeditious retreat/fly + fireball does not work as well for a few reasons:

1. Both of those are concentration, which means if you get whomped by the OA you could lose concentration, still take damage, and lose the slot.
2. Both of those are concentration, which means that you can't maintain an existing concentration effect while you're doing it. That means you are holding your concentration "slot" just to escape. What if you have summoned creatures up, or have a target ensnared via Hold Person from the previous round?
3. Neither of those stop you from getting hit by an OA when you try to move away.
4. You cannot do those in the same round that you cast ball.

Shield is the only good solution here, but even that assumes that the monster in question rolls low enough that shield will actually help you. It might help you, it might also just be a waste of a slot.

dev6500

2015-12-21, 03:11 PM

Expeditious retreat/fly + fireball does not work as well for a few reasons:

1. Both of those are concentration, which means if you get whomped by the OA you could lose concentration, still take damage, and lose the slot.
2. Both of those are concentration, which means that you can't maintain an existing concentration effect while you're doing it. That means you are holding your concentration "slot" just to escape. What if you have summoned creatures up, or have a target ensnared via Hold Person from the previous round?
3. Neither of those stop you from getting hit by an OA when you try to move away.
4. You cannot do those in the same round that you cast ball.

Shield is the only good solution here, but even that assumes that the monster in question rolls low enough that shield will actually help you. It might help you, it might also just be a waste of a slot.

If we are counting the negative of them being concentration spells it seems silly to also count the negative of not being to cast them in the same round that you are wanting to cast fireball. Clearly a concentration spell would be cast earlier in combat. So clearly it is still perfectly useful on a round where you want to cast fireball at the same time as retreating. Also, expeditious retreat is a bonus action spell so it is very easy to fit it into an early round of combat when you are using a cantrip to save spell slots.

Already having fly up is distinctly better than quickened fireball + disengage as a flying wizard is unlikely to be in melee range anyway. So clearly a better option.

Expeditious retreat + fireball is clearly just as good as quickened fireball + disengage or dash because getting hit with a OA is roughly as bad as still being in range of the enemy on the next turn which you will be if you only disengage. Either way, you will take hits.

Also, both fly and expeditious retreat can last multiple rounds as where quickening uses up points each time you use it. Concentration can be broken but, they atleast have the opportunity to last multiple rounds even if you get hit.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-21, 08:38 PM

If you're willing to have a defensive mobility spell up the entire fight then sure, you can use Fly/Expeditious Retreat in that manner.

However, having to blow that extra spell slot and commit to not using any other concentration spells throughout the fight is a pretty huge opportunity cost. If we're comparing the combat effectiveness of a sorcerer versus a wizard, surely the fact that a sorcerer can have access to awesome concentration spells like hold person factors in somewhere? And there's further versatility to having just quicken available - a wizard might replicate the defensive utility of quicken spell by sacrificing his concentration, but that won't get him the extra burst damage that quicken can provide, for example.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-21, 09:26 PM

I agree. I house-rule that they get five more spells known according to their archetype and I'm very open to creating new archetypes, one each of levels 1st through 5th, and often those particular spell options come from other class lists so it broadens their list a bit as well (sort of like domain spells). I would also seriously consider adding a few more spells to their list if a player made a case to me and it wouldn't become broken from MM. I don't fully understand why some spells aren't there already. I just haven't taken the time to meticulously go through and preemptively do that. The sorcerer in my game loves her character and didn't ask for any of these changes so it was icing to her as she was picking spells. She was giddy. In significant AL play, I've run into a lot more sorcerers than wizards playing them by the book and with nary a complaint.

I think that is another good way to remedy the situation. Which also brings a question to mind, how pliable should a DM be with allowing a spell list addition that fits with the archetype of the class? Of course abuse should be frowned upon, but how should it be handled for players to be able to homebrew or add spells to their list? Forming up the good ol' Socratic circle with your group, asking the DM personally, or possibly allowing free spell creation on a (more-so) strict guideline?

Dalebert

2015-12-21, 10:07 PM

Expeditious retreat + fireball is clearly just as good as quickened fireball + disengage or dash

It's clearly just as good except that you can't do it at all. You can't cast two spells a turn unless one is a cantrip. Disengaging and then casting a full offensive spell is purely the realm of a sorcerer. Having a few fast save-your-bacon spells does not compare to being able to cast almost anything as a bonus action or twin hard-hitting spells or dramatically increase the chance of a failed save in a game that is so dominated by the importance of action economy.

If you just want a wide variety of spells to cast the same slow, typical, and boring way, you play a wizard. Your party will appreciate your steady contribution, the occasional buffs, the utility of ritually summoning unseen servants and tiny huts.

Do you want to blast enemies away as fast as the built-for-DPR meleers? Play a sorcerer.
The assassin can one-shot a lot of enemies, but if he does it in town, he may get caught. Do you want to order some food and between bites just glance up and vaporize someone at the next table and then act as shocked as everyone else in the tavern? Play a sorcerer.

If you want utility and variety, play a wizard, but if you want to be a glorious rockstar who steals the show, play a sorcerer.

Zalabim

2015-12-22, 05:00 AM

The specialist in magic is the Wizard. They specialize in one school and do that school better than anyone. Sorcerers are dabblers. Evokers are the best at area blasts, able to throw them anywhere and only hit enemies and get to maximize damage instead of just empower it. Enchanters are the mindwarping masters who get to modify memories while twinning every enchantment they ever cast. Abjurers have the best defensive magic, a recharging ward of damage prevention that they can use for party members, resistance to spells and stronger counter magic. On top of this single school specialty, Wizards bring a wide base of spells to choose between. Instead, sorcerers can pull tricks that are nearly as good as some school specialty. They bring in cross-discipline abilities that let them create some unique effects. They don't throw a careful fireball into the middle of a dense melee, but they do throw a careful Fear.

The sorcerer specialty is throwing everything they have at any problem they face. Their special skill is their ability to nova. By burning sorcery points, Sorcerers can spend more of their daily spell slots per round than any other caster. Being able to bring out more power right now comes with the balance downside of not being able to bring out as much power per day. The sorcerer is more likely to use all of their potential each day. The metamagic choices are like knowing two to four extra spells that are higher level than any other caster of their level has access to.

Then they also usually get bonus damage for casting some particular kind of spell. Kind of one-note on that front, so far.

Strill

2015-12-22, 06:25 AM

The specialist in magic is the Wizard. They specialize in one school and do that school better than anyone. Sorcerers are dabblers.

Please go read the class descriptions and come back. Wizards learn magic through academics, while Sorcerers are themselves inherently magical.

Natasha

2015-12-22, 07:53 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the Wizard is the only caster who doesn't suffer from spell list woes. Houserule fix - gain access to all spells that make sense for your subclass.

To me, it makes zero sense for a fire dragon bloodline to not be able to call up fire elementals when red dragons do just that. I can't understand why Storm Sorcerers can't get access to all wind, thunder, and lightning based magics. Favored Soul, if we keep it anything like the 3e class, should have access to a number of cleric spells. And that's before we touch on my homebrew sorcerer subclasses - Spirit Shaman, Winter Courtier, Celestial Magus, Psion and a revised Shadow subclass from the recent UA article. That's a lot of missing spells that we'll need.

And that's before we start looking at various clerics, druids, warlocks and bards oh my! I'm still struggling to understand why the bard doesn't get automatic access to Booming Blade. Its perfect for a Valor bard.

Tanarii

2015-12-22, 10:28 AM

Please go read the class descriptions and come back. Wizards learn magic through academics, while Sorcerers are themselves inherently magical.which lines up perfectly with what he said. Academics that study become specialists with a broad base of general knowledge. Those with natural talent become dabblers with a limited base of knowledge, that learn to pull off a few amazing tricks of their own due to an innate knack.

Dalebert

2015-12-22, 10:45 AM

Think about it for a moment. If you had to pick one thing that defines the wizard class in mechanical terms, what would it be? Is it that they can know a lot of spells and prepare different ones each day? Definitely not. Clerics and land druids do that and they do it clearly better. Is it that the can have a lot of spells prepared at one time? No because clerics and land druids do that better too, having 8 or 10 more spells prepared by level 9.

THE most defining thing about a wizard is their spell list. It's really big and diverse. In the issues mentioned above, the wizard beats other arcane casters, but the reason you play a wizard instead of a cleric is because you want access to a lot of wizardy-type spells. You want to be able to blast things but you also want the convenience of an unseen servant. You want to make cool walls and be able to crowd control but you also want to make illusions, and so on.

W izards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast.

Emphasis mine. Go read the flavor description of a wizard and it emphasises and expounds on this concept. Translation in mechanical terms: the wizard is defined by their spell list.

As far as I'm concerned, the Wizard is the only caster who doesn't suffer from spell list woes. Houserule fix - gain access to all spells that make sense for your subclass.

And they're not supposed to as it's their defining feature. I'm inclined to broaden the other spell lists some but to do it with discretion with this is an intentional design feature of the wizard, without doubt.

dev6500

2015-12-22, 02:19 PM

It's clearly just as good except that you can't do it at all. You can't cast two spells a turn unless one is a cantrip. Disengaging and then casting a full offensive spell is purely the realm of a sorcerer.
Who said that you had to cast them in the same round. If you had read my post, you would see I definitely didn't say that.

Any person acting like you can't fit a bonus action spell into the early stages of a combat is not being honest. I have been playing a wizard in my most recent campaign and we have gotten to level 7 so far. I can only afford to throw around 2 to 4 spells a combat so it is pretty easy for me to find rounds where I use a cantrip instead of a spell slot. Furthermore, if I put up expeditious retreat in the 2nd or 3rd round of combat before I pull agro with a fireball or other serious spell effect, I can maintain superior maneuverability for the rest of the combat. Meaning I don't need the fighter to save me because I am unconscious on the floor. Having multiple rounds of dashes open to me is greater than only having tactical superiority for 1 round.

BTW, disengaging 30 ft and casting fireball does not save you for the next round. If the fireball was going to kill the enemy, then you didn't need to disengage and if the fireball didn't kill the enemy, then next round you are going to be attacked by them again because you just fireballed them.

1 round of disengage < a whole combat's worth of bonus action dashes. Believe me, I use the heck out of that spell and its easy to fit into a combat and its very effective. There are so many things I would cut from my prepared list long before expeditious retreat.

Dalebert

2015-12-22, 02:51 PM

You're assuming just one enemy. You can always get one guy with the right positioning of the fireball but you might be able to get more if you move 30 ft. Anyway, fireball was just the example spell. It could be any spell. The point is you might have more than one guy on you and even if you have just one guy, you might want to both attack him very effectively and also get away from him. Maybe you Disintegrate first and then have the option to disengage if he's still alive or you disengage first just because you don't know. Maybe you want to use a powerful ranged attack spell and don't want to be at disadvantage.

The real key here is the sorcerer may need to blow extra resources when things happen outside of a plan. The wizard needs to blow resources up front for prevention or give up the impact he could have because he has to save his bacon. The sorcerer has some more options for the unexpected due to metamagics that don't require that upfront expenditure or as much pre-planning, even something like Subtle Spell. Imagine the tank is adjacent to the enemy as well but he's focusing on you because you look all magicky and blasty. You use the Subtle Spell trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472166-Subtle-Spell-is-under-rated) to polymorph yourself into something scarey with a lot of HP but convincing them the tank cast it. Now they'll likely attack the tank instead of you trying to break his nonexistent concentration.

Again, it doesn't make them as versatile as a wizard and it's not supposed to, but it makes up somewhat for fewer spells and leaves them as the hard-hitters and seat-of-the-pants casters they're intended to be. Having Quicken means most of the save-your-bacon uses of Misty Step are not needed and Quicken is at least as cheap as casting a 2nd level spell since you can always turn a 2nd level slot into the 2 points you need for it. Meanwhile, Quicken has already been demonstrated to be more impactful than blowing your one non-cantrip spell on a save-your-bacon spell, e.g. Quicken ANY SPELL + disengage as opposed to Misty Step + cantrip.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-22, 03:06 PM

Who said that you had to cast them in the same round. If you had read my post, you would see I definitely didn't say that.

You still haven't addressed my point - You're giving up concentration, which is huge.

Now, maybe for the character you're playing, it makes sense to always have a defensive spell up since your primary focus in combat is blasting. However, I'm sure you can agree that not everyone will play arcane casters the same way, and a caster that uses more control-y spells will find the opportunity cost of using concentration on expeditious retreat to be huge.

Dalebert

2015-12-22, 03:14 PM

...a caster that uses more control-y spells will find the opportunity cost of using concentration on expeditious retreat to be huge.

E.g. Myself. I'm not at all a fan of blasty characters. I'd much rather assist in allowing my party to focus attacks and whittle numbers down with crowd control which is often concentration.

dev6500

2015-12-22, 03:30 PM

You still haven't addressed my point - You're giving up concentration, which is huge.

Now, maybe for the character you're playing, it makes sense to always have a defensive spell up since your primary focus in combat is blasting. However, I'm sure you can agree that not everyone will play arcane casters the same way, and a caster that uses more control-y spells will find the opportunity cost of using concentration on expeditious retreat to be huge.

I'm not really giving up concentration. Expeditious retreat is a 1st level spell slot which is a cheap resource to use up. Cheaper in my mind than sorcery points. If I put it up in the early part of combat and get a few rounds out of it because it appears I will need maneuverability, then that is great. If 2 rounds later, I need to use a different concentration spell, well its not a big deal. I already got a few turns out of it and it has been useful. Its especially useful at the early parts of combat when there are more enemies. If after a few rounds of AoE spells from the group only 1 or 2 elite enemies remain, then it makes sense to just throw a concentration based debuff onto that enemy and lose Expeditious retreat . Early on, it makes great tactical sense to have higher maneuverability when there are more enemies. If I were to cast hold person on the strongest enemy in the 1st or 2nd round, because of the nature of concentration spells, I would instantly become a target for all the enemies.

Before I used Expeditious retreat, I would often find myself surrounded by enemies and then unconscious on the ground in combat and then whatever debuff I was concentrating on disappeared anyway.

The real key here is the sorcerer may need to blow extra resources when things happen outside of a plan. The wizard needs to blow resources up front for prevention or give up the impact he could have because he has to save his bacon. The sorcerer has some more options for the unexpected due to metamagics that don't require that upfront expenditure or as much pre-planning, even something like Subtle Spell.

I agree that twin is a very powerful. Subtle can be situational. I am just not buying the extreme impact you attach to quicken. 2 sorcery points is much more costly prep than a first level spell(shield or expeditious retreat). Furthermore, shield is more likely to keep you safe until your next turn since it gives you +5 ac until your next turn. Meaning when the enemies attack you again, because they will since you just cast a aggro grabbing fireball, you will have a much higher ac to weather those attacks. Expeditious retreat is also going to allow for multiple turns where you can dash so that if you use it wisely, you should never have an enemy next to you.

Both of these are stronger moves than quicken fireball(or quicken strong spell x) + disengage.

Strill

2015-12-22, 03:32 PM

which lines up perfectly with what he said. Academics that study become specialists with a broad base of general knowledge. Those with natural talent become dabblers with a limited base of knowledge, that learn to pull off a few amazing tricks of their own due to an innate knack.

That description is completely detached from the facts of the situation. Sorcerers are not naturally talented Wizards who specialize in one area because they never bothered to study magic more in depth. They're inherently magical beings who learn to harness their own internal magic in a completely different way from Wizards.

Wizards learn to harness external power through study. Sorcerers learn to harness their own internal power through force of will. Whether one of them "dabbles" in magic is not a distinction between the two in the slightest.

Tanarii

2015-12-22, 04:01 PM

That description is completely detached from the facts of the situation.lol@facts :)

Sorcerers are not naturally talented Wizards who specialize in one area because they never bothered to study magic more in depth. neither of us said they were.

They're inherently magical beings who learn to harness their own internal magic in a completely different way from Wizards. Neither of us denied this.

Wizards learn to harness external power through study. Sorcerers learn to harness their own internal power through force of will. Whether one of them "dabbles" in magic is not a distinction between the two in the slightest.
Ah okay I see, you're specifically taking exception to the word 'dabble'. I can understand that, since it implies they don't take it seriously.

But Sorcerers don't study magic to learn to use it. They just use it. If they studied it to learn to use it, they'd be Wizards as well. So they *are* amateurs, in the non-pejorative sense of the word. They are self-taught with a specific knack due to inherent magic, that they've learned to harness through experience. And like many naturally talented amateurs, they are really good at the things their knack applies to, but not as broadly trained or specialized.

edit: Honestly though we're really getting into fluff. Mechanically, Wizards have more daily & ritual flexibility, and Sorcerers have more on-the-spot flexibility.

Zalabim

2015-12-22, 05:25 PM

They're inherently magical beings who learn to harness their own internal magic in a completely different way from Wizards.

Isn't that the rub that causes the spell list woe in the first place? There's only a handful of sorcerer spells that wizards don't have access to. Most of the metamagic have similar abilities among the school specializations.

Demonic Spoon

2015-12-22, 05:26 PM

I'm not really giving up concentration. Expeditious retreat is a 1st level spell slot which is a cheap resource to use up. Cheaper in my mind than sorcery points. If I put it up in the early part of combat and get a few rounds out of it because it appears I will need maneuverability, then that is great. If 2 rounds later, I need to use a different concentration spell, well its not a big deal. I already got a few turns out of it and it has been useful. Its especially useful at the early parts of combat when there are more enemies. If after a few rounds of AoE spells from the group only 1 or 2 elite enemies remain, then it makes sense to just throw a concentration based debuff onto that enemy and lose Expeditious retreat . Early on, it makes great tactical sense to have higher maneuverability when there are more enemies. If I were to cast hold person on the strongest enemy in the 1st or 2nd round, because of the nature of concentration spells, I would instantly become a target for all the enemies.

Before I used Expeditious retreat, I would often find myself surrounded by enemies and then unconscious on the ground in combat and then whatever debuff I was concentrating on disappeared anyway.

And if what you want to do first round is cast Hold Person?

What if you cast Expeditious Retreat, then cast a more powerful offensive concentration spell, then need to escape?

What if you want to cast a concentration-based buff spell on your ally before the fight begins and have it persist throughout? Or cast it on round 1 in lieu of expeditious retreat? What if you want to have summoned elementals up when the fight starts?

SharkForce

2015-12-22, 07:11 PM

you shouldn't be casting hold person if you need it to last more than one round anyways. it's not a "keep you out of the fight" spell, it's a "set you up to get slaughtered in a single round" spell. so don't cast it unless the target is in a situation where you can surround them and kill them before they break free of the spell one way or another. if you want to just keep someone out of the fight, throw a fear or hypnotic pattern or something. it's AoE so you can hit more people than just the one, and it is much more likely to last.

edit: and a sorcerer with access to the full wizard list does not threaten a wizard's versatility in spell selection. realistically, a sorcerer won't be taking any special-purpose spells whatsoever. it either has a broad application, or the sorcerer is in turn losing out on the generalist value of the spells.

Natasha

2015-12-23, 09:36 AM

Think about it for a moment. If you had to pick one thing that defines the wizard class in mechanical terms, what would it be? Their books. Wizards are defined by academia and their spell books. The wizard's spells known, spells transcribed, spells prepared, ability to switch between them, and ritual magic all tie together as mechanics that reflect their defining spell book feature.

You can't separate these mechanics, and only point to one aspect - they're a lump sum all tied into the wizard as part of its core identity.

As well, I really disagree with pointing to a mechanic as a class's defining feature. A Ranger's defining features are being a monster hunter and wilderness survivalist. Monster hunting and wilderness stuff are spread throughout the class as a whole, not just one or two mechanics.

Emphasis mine. Go read the flavor description of a wizard and it emphasises and expounds on this concept. Translation in mechanical terms: the wizard is defined by their spell list. I take that same line to refer to their school specialties as well. Wizards define themselves as necromancers, transmuters, evokers, etc because they focus on necrotic magic, transmutations, evocations, and so on. Even bladesinger follow this pattern, as the side bar clearly shows that this elven subclass defines itself based on which spells matches the weaponry style.

And they're not supposed to as it's their defining feature. I'm inclined to broaden the other spell lists some but to do it with discretion with this is an intentional design feature of the wizard, without doubt. Intentional feature of the wizard or not should have no effect on the design of non-wizard classes. We should be looking at how to make the sorcerer, the cleric, the druid, the warlock, and so on all really work well on their own two feet.

In my game, I have Red/Gold Dragon, Wild Magic, Winter Courtier, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Shadow Heart, Storm Soul, and Psion Origins for Sorcerers. The spell list for sorcerer simply doesn't allow this diversity, so I fixed it. I don't like the Arcane, Death, Light, Nature, Tempest or Trickery clerics having access to any spells that match their domain after level 10.

There should be a focus on making all these subclasses have thematic magic somehow.

Dalebert

2015-12-23, 09:52 AM

If Sorcerers used Spell Points and other casters didn't, I'd agree. Sorcerers could take Fireball, and that could be their one AoE spell. But as-is, Sorcerers need spells of every level, which means that several of their choices are likely going to be redundant. Choosing two spells with the same function but different spell level really eats into their available spells known.

You really don't though. You can cast many spells with a higher slot to get a greater effect or you can burn those slots for precious sorcery points. When our sorcerer took fireball and then ice storm, I assumed he wanted a good AoE for when creatures were resistant to fire. If you just want the same effect as fireball but more powerful, you cast it as 4th level. I could see it as a potential strategy to just save a whole level of spell slots to use as points if you didn't particularly want to waste spells known on it.

Their books. Wizards are defined by academia and their spell books. The wizard's spells known, spells transcribed, spells prepared, ability to switch between them, and ritual magic all tie together as mechanics that reflect their defining spell book feature.

You're ignoring the rest of my post where I showed that clerics and land druids do preparing lots of spells and knowing lots of spells far better than wizards in every possible way (including expense involved). Folks obviously aren't going to go read the wizard's description that follows the sentence I quoted as I suggested so here it is, with emphasis on what the designers intended to define a wizard, i.e. the access they have to a variety of spells that no one else does. After explicitly saying that's what defines a wizard, it then emphasizes and expounds on the variety of their spell list.

Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. Drawing on the subtle weave of magic that permeates the cosmos, wizards cast spells of explosive fire, arcing lightning, subtle deception, and brute-force mind control. Their magic conjures monsters from other planes of existence, glimpses the future, or turns slain foes into zombies. Their mightiest spells change one substance into another, call meteors down from the sky, or open portals to other worlds.

Strill

2015-12-23, 10:08 AM

You're ignoring the rest of my post where I showed that clerics and land druids do preparing lots of spells and knowing lots of spells far better than wizards in every possible way
No they don't. The Cleric spell list is the smallest spell list in the book, and it's filled with defensive/healing spells and inferior alternatives to Wizard spells, like Flame Strike. Knowing lots of spells doesn't mean anything when they're mostly redundant.

People never care about sheer quantity of spells alone. It's the versatility they grant you that matters. Wizards get far more versatility out of their spells known than Clerics do.

with emphasis on what the designers intended to define a wizardUnless you can find a developer quote explicitly saying that, I'm calling bull. You can't pick an opinionated bit of fluff text like that and act as though it's an insight into the developers' minds. For all you know it might've been written by a 3rd party freelancer who wasn't privy to any of the rules development.

You really don't though. You can cast many spells with a higher slot to get a greater effect or you can burn those slots for precious sorcery points. When our sorcerer took fireball and then ice storm, I assumed he wanted a good AoE for when creatures were resistant to fire. If you just want the same effect as fireball but more powerful, you cast it as 4th level. I could see it as a potential strategy to just save a whole level of spell slots to use as points if you didn't particularly want to waste spells known on it.You're seriously willing to sacrifice all those valuable spell slots for sorcery points, or upcasted AoEs? And you don't see that as crippling the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard?

The whole advantage of Spell Points is that you never HAVE to waste spell slots that you don't want to. A spell-slot based caster might cast Polymorph on an enemy because he's out of 2nd-level spells for Hold Person. In the process he's wasting a ton of value on a powerful spell that he really didn't need. The fewer spells you have prepared, however, the more you're forced to waste value because you didn't have an efficient spell for the job. With Spell Points, however, you don't have to worry about wasted value because you can cast that Hold Person spell over and over again at 2nd level. It's also easier on your spells prepared/known because you don't need to worry about taking a redundant spell of a different level just for the sake of efficiency.

You're jumping on that waste as though it's a good thing. Upcasting spells because you're out of the slot you need, and sacrificing a whole level of spell slots for Sorcery points?! Do you not realize that that's what makes the Sorcerer so much weaker than the Wizard? Wizards don't need to do this. They have enough spells known to cast the most efficient spells at each level.

Natasha

2015-12-23, 10:58 AM

You're ignoring the rest of my post where I showed that clerics and land druids do preparing lots of spells and knowing lots of spells far better than wizards in every possible way (including expense involved). Folks obviously aren't going to go read the wizard's description that follows the sentence I quoted as I suggested so here it is, with emphasis on what the designers intended to define a wizard, i.e. the access they have to a variety of spells that no one else does. After explicitly saying that's what defines a wizard, it then emphasizes and expounds on the variety of their spell list.I'm not ignoring it, I simply didn't quote the entire thing for brevity's sake. I simply think that your rationale is flawed, and you're stretching to make connections between a text, and the large spell list as a defining feature. Hells. In no way does the next two lines suggest that wizards must have a large list, only that it must have Fireballs, Lightning Bolt, Conjure Elementals, Dominate Person/Monster, Animate Dead, Major Image, and three specific level 9 spells. That, in no way, suggests wizards should have Knock, Alarm, Detect Magic, Web, Slow, Banishment, and a whole host of 200+ spells.

It simply amazes me how often "I disagree" ends up being responded to with "Obviously, you never read the material!" Its just insulting, as if someone who disagrees must be stupid or uninformed.

I also didn't comment about the number of prepared spells for clerics and druids because, frankly, it has nothing to do with my argument. I'm currently working on a drow Underdark Land Druid for the recent demonlord story. The number of spells I -can- prepare are meaningless, because I'm focusing on spider themed magic for the PC. I dont' care that I can prepare an equal number of spells, I just care that the spells I prepare have something to do with my chosen theme. I want poison, I want webbing, I want mobility, I want shapeshifting. I don't particularly care about healing or conjuration magic. If I play an ice-themed sorcerer, I want to learn ice magic. I don't care one whit about all the firespells on the sorcerer list. I would rather learn Slow than Haste. And so on.

AbyssStalker

2015-12-23, 11:09 AM

I think this is a case of the wizard's spell list also being imperfect (in my opinion), they gave them so many fundamental spells that other casters should have access to, but few spells that really wow me on the intellect and complexity of the wizard's ability. Wizards should be able to have both in spades, but other classes should still be given an entirely reasonable selection of spells in the categories they specialize in too, although I do believe they have done an adequate job with the currents spell lists, it could be better though.

Zalabim

2015-12-23, 12:33 PM

The quoted text is just a contrast and an explanation for how even though wizards all specialize in some different school of magic, they're all Wizards because they all draw from the same spell list.

Dalebert

2015-12-23, 12:48 PM

The point is that both fluff (wizards are all about having a variety of spells) and mechanics (really big spell list) match up to demonstrate that this is a purposeful design intent that impacts both flavor and balance of the classes.

I'm a big fan of making changes you feel are necessary. I buff sorcerers a bit in my game. I'm just stressing caution so as to not completely undermine design decisions that were extensively play-tested. I would for instance, suggest something like expanding spell lists for specific archetypes rather than just sweepingly making the sorcerer list huge. If you go there, you need to consider how broken a spell could get with metamagic. For instance, consider adding spells to the list for specific archetypes. "When you choose this archetype, the following spells are added to the sorcerer spell list for you: x, y, z, etc."

eastmabl

2015-12-23, 01:27 PM

You suggested a Sorcerer can bonus action a Fireball. For what purpose? So they can cast a cantrip, or action dash? It means nothing unless you're assuming 2 action spells.

You could also quicken a spell (like fireball), then use Disengage and move out of a precarious situation.

I totally agree with you - it's not something that makes me want to play a sorcerer more than a wizard from a power standpoint. It is, however, a nice tactic to keep in your back pocket.

Strill

2015-12-23, 02:39 PM

The point is that both fluff (wizards are all about having a variety of spells) and mechanics (really big spell list) match up to demonstrate that this is a purposeful design intent that impacts both flavor and balance of the classes.Yes, but that doesn't mean it's the only distinguishing feature.

You could also quicken a spell (like fireball), then use Disengage and move out of a precarious situation.
That doesn't accomplish anything. The enemy can still just run up and attack you.

Flashy

2015-12-23, 02:42 PM

Quickened Shocking Grasp + Dash is pretty solid though. That assumes real specific spell/metamagic selection of course.

Strill

2015-12-23, 02:44 PM

Quickened Shocking Grasp + Dash is pretty solid though.

Except when it misses and you're screwed.

Flashy

2015-12-23, 02:46 PM

Except when it misses and you're screwed.

Sure? I mean, that's true of literally every spell in the game, so I don't really see what the point is. I'm all on board with the general argument that sorcerers aren't as flexible as they maybe should be, but they do have some metamagic combos going for them.

Strill

2015-12-23, 03:24 PM

Sure? I mean, that's true of literally every spell in the game, so I don't really see what the point is. I'm all on board with the general argument that sorcerers aren't as flexible as they maybe should be, but they do have some metamagic combos going for them.

The point is you're better off using misty step and guaranteeing that you escape.

brainface

2015-12-23, 03:34 PM

georgie_leech

2015-12-23, 03:35 PM

The point is you're better off using misty step and guaranteeing that you escape.

Debatable for the Sorcerer, as that involves taking up a precious spell known. It's a spell I'd take for sure, I love the thing, but I can imagine Sorcerers that would rather have a different spell.

Flashy

2015-12-23, 04:10 PM

The point is you're better off using misty step and guaranteeing that you escape.

Quickened Misty Step + move + Firebolt then. Or Quickened Misty Step + dash for 90 feet of distance.

Dalebert

2015-12-23, 04:15 PM

Whhhhyyyy don't sorcerer's get acid arrow?

That's absolutely one that I'm inclined to add to their list. It bothers me as well that things seem so heavily weighted toward fire sorcerers. I'd like to go through and make sure there are enough decent options for all the archetypes, and worse case, I'd add some spells as a sort of archetype feature, e.g. "if you're a black draconic sorcerer, the following spells are added to the sorcerer list for you." But I would first try to get a variety of those basics in there for all sorcerers.

old school man

2015-12-23, 04:20 PM

I am ok with it so far, and I have not had a complaint yet..........

John

georgie_leech

2015-12-23, 04:56 PM

Quickened Misty Step + move + Firebolt then. Or Quickened Misty Step + dash for 90 feet of distance.

Given that Misty Step is already a Bonus Action, that would be a spectacular waste of Sorcery Points :smallbiggrin: Aside from not being able to at all, I mean.

Flashy

2015-12-23, 05:18 PM

Given that Misty Step is already a Bonus Action, that would be a spectacular waste of Sorcery Points :smallbiggrin: Aside from not being able to at all, I mean.

Right, I'm just an idiot. ANYWAY.

Cornelia Fug

2015-12-23, 05:33 PM

I'm getting my *ss handed to me right now as a wizard. Really because these demons are resistant to all my attack spells, and I cannot protect all my guys. They are so tough. I need some radiant damage source. I end up casting mirror image on myself, and pro from evil charging the arcane ward and trying to hang in there.

Give me some help, I'm 7th level I need something. I do have hypnotic pattern, I will try it. Or am I wimp and demons are tough

I'm having the same problem. Between a demon/devil's high saves, magic resistance, elemental resistances, and 5e's lack of non-concentration control spells I'm beginning to feel a bit useless in combat as a wizard. All of the martials have magic weapons and so can overcome the non-magical weapon resistance, but I've seemingly got no way of overcoming the probelms mentioned above. Can anyone help please?

Strill

2015-12-23, 05:39 PM

I'm having the same problem. Between a demon/devil's high saves, magic resistance, elemental resistances, and 5e's lack of non-concentration control spells I'm beginning to feel a bit useless in combat as a wizard. All of the martials have magic weapons and so can overcome the non-magical weapon resistance, but I've seemingly got no way of overcoming the probelms mentioned above. Can anyone help please?

Polymorph your most vulnerable party member into a T-Rex and run away. Cast Wall of Force to split the battlefield. Conjure elementals to fight for you.

Your non-concentration control spell of choice should be Blindness/Deafness.

Cornelia Fug

2015-12-23, 06:05 PM

Polymorph your most vulnerable party member into a T-Rex and run away. Cast Wall of Force to split the battlefield. Conjure elementals to fight for you.

Your non-concentration control spell of choice should be Blindness/Deafness.
A party member polymorphed into a T-Rex wouldn't be able to bypass non-magical weapon resistance, and an elemental couldn't bypass elemental resistance/immunity. I've tried Blindness/Deafness, but most demons resist it with ease due to magic resistance and high CON. Wall of Force may work, though, so thanks.

Since we're playing a planar campaign, magic resistance is a very big problem since most planar beings seem to have it. Just as a fighter can overcome non-magical weapon resistance with a +1 sword, can a wizard overcome magic resistance in any way?

Strill

2015-12-23, 06:15 PM

A party member polymorphed into a T-Rex wouldn't be able to bypass non-magical weapon resistance, and an elemental couldn't bypass elemental resistance/immunity.Why does it matter? The T-Rex's got a huge buffer of HP so he can afford to sit there and duke it out. Same goes for the elementals. Doesn't matter if they get killed. Better them than you.

Just as a fighter can overcome non-magical weapon resistance with a +1 sword, can a wizard overcome magic resistance in any way?The simplest way to bypass magic resistance is to use attack spells instead of save spells. The only way to boost your spell DCs is to get more INT or get Robes of the Archmagi.

Cornelia Fug

2015-12-23, 06:26 PM

Why does it matter? The T-Rex's got a huge buffer of HP so he can afford to sit there and duke it out. Same goes for the elementals. Doesn't matter if they get killed. Better them than you.

You can get a Wand of the War Mage to boost your spell attacks, but the only way to boost your spell DCs is to get more INT or get Robes of the Archmagi.

If you're so intent on blasting demons instead of just controlling the battlefield, why don't you use some attack spells instead of save spells?
Good point about the T-Rex and elementals, and thanks for the item suggestions. I'll have to ask my DM about them.

I'd very much prefer to be a controller, but it's difficult in this edition due to the concentration rules, and much more so when fighting magic-resistant creatures. It seems as if my only option is attack roll-based damage spells, but even then the damage resistances of planars makes it very difficult to do much damage to them at all. I believe chill touch is the only cantrip I've got with any chance of wounding them, and magic missile is maybe my only usable spell slot based spell. It doesn't seem to me that casters in 5e are intended to fight planar creatures with great frequency.

Strill

2015-12-23, 06:32 PM

Good point about the T-Rex and elementals, and thanks for the item suggestions. I'll have to ask my DM about them.

I'd very much prefer to be a controller, but it's difficult in this edition due to the concentration rules, and much more so when fighting magic-resistant creatures. It seems as if my only option is attack roll-based damage spells, but even then the damage resistances of planars makes it very difficult to do much damage to them at all. I believe chill touch is the only cantrip I've got with any chance of wounding them, and magic missile is maybe my only usable spell slot based spell. It doesn't seem to me that casters in 5e are intended to fight planar creatures with great frequency.

Why is concentration such a big obstacle to controlling the battlefield? It shouldn't take more than two spells at the absolute most to trivialize an encounter.

Natasha

2015-12-23, 06:34 PM

A party member polymorphed into a T-Rex wouldn't be able to bypass non-magical weapon resistance, and an elemental couldn't bypass elemental resistance/immunity. I've tried Blindness/Deafness, but most demons resist it with ease due to magic resistance and high CON. Wall of Force may work, though, so thanks. One of my favorite go-to spells is Banishment. Even if you just send one or two off the field for a few rounds, its worth it. Only shadows have necrotic resistance, so grab some of those. Magic Missile is good. Devils have no resistance to lightning magic. Elementals except fire deal bashing damage, not elemental, and I'll argue that, hey, they're magic, so they'll bypass that restriction. At high levels, there's Sunbeam and Sunburst. Bigby's hand.

EDIT - also, thudner spells seem to be in the clear.

Since we're playing a planar campaign, magic resistance is a very big problem since most planar beings seem to have it. Just as a fighter can overcome non-magical weapon resistance with a +1 sword, can a wizard overcome magic resistance in any way? Elemental Adapt as a feat.

JackPhoenix

2015-12-23, 08:40 PM

Whhhhyyyy don't sorcerer's get acid arrow?

Seriously if you're not a fire dragon sorcerer spell selection is... not great? It gets better at higher level I guess, and cold and electric are okay at least, but I don't know if there's ever any good poison spells.

I think Dragon Sorcerer should have taken some inspiration from Pathfinder, where they can change the energy type of their spells to their energy type of choice. D&D was never big on poison spells, but changing Fireball to Poison Ball for green dragon sorcerers or Ball Lightning for blue would be nice (not that you can't already houserule that, take a spell, slap a different energy type on it, done, you have new spell)

Natasha

2015-12-23, 09:15 PM

I think Dragon Sorcerer should have taken some inspiration from Pathfinder, where they can change the energy type of their spells to their energy type of choice. D&D was never big on poison spells, but changing Fireball to Poison Ball for green dragon sorcerers or Ball Lightning for blue would be nice (not that you can't already houserule that, take a spell, slap a different energy type on it, done, you have new spell)Wasn't energy substitution a metamagic thing in 3e too?

SharkForce

2015-12-23, 11:42 PM

demons range from not very good to really really awful in mental saves unless they're obvious leader types, and very few of them have great dex saves. if you can manage DC 14 or 15 webs, you shouldn't see 100% fail rate, but you should be able to swing something like 40% fail rate, which means a group of 5 demons just got cut down to a group of 3 for a round or more. int saves are typically the worst, so if you're fighting a small group, phantasmal force may be just the spell you need.

devils are a fair bit harder, few have truly terrible saves. few have particularly great dex saves either though, and while int is generally better than demons, that doesn't mean they have great int saves (+2 is certainly better than -2, but still not good).

as a wizard, you should be proficient in arcana, and demons and devils are one of the types of monsters you should know about. i wouldn't expect the DM to tell you their exact save bonuses, but you should imo be able to get a general feel for each monster's strengths or weaknesses, including resistances and particularly noteworthy saves (if they have an int of 5 or a wis of 7, then people probably know they're not very smart or wise).

additionally, as noted, various spells completely bypass saving throws. wall of force is probably the most famous, but bigby's hand can also leave a key enemy standing in the back doing nothing if you use the interposing version, and you might even be able to grapple and damage with it. mordenkainen's hound sets up a small location with repeating force damage, no concentration required. protection from evil and good (or even magic circle, if you have time to prepare) can provide great value. many powerful extraplanar beings have truesight, but weaker ones often don't (this once again seems like the sort of thing arcana could let you know). illusions should be just as effective on them as they would be on other creatures. many demons have poor wisdom saves, and being the embodiment of pure chaos you can probably make some fairly effective use of suggestion and geas (they won't cooperate with a devil most likely, but you could probably persuade them to turn on their fellow demons much of the time). darkness often won't help, but sleet storm or obscuring mist should do just fine for the roles they fill on the prime.

as noted, various summoned creatures are fairly useful as well.

just remember though, as probably the one in the party with the highest arcana skill, it is probable that you know more about the planes than anyone else in the party. ask to use it often.

and also, as a wizard you can afford to have a buff spell or 3 handy. you may not feel like a superstar for having fly or protection from elements handy, but there is a world of difference between a flying barbarian vs a flying enemy that has a ranged attack, and a barbarian who is reduced to throwing a single javelin per round (probably non-magical) with no rage bonus to damage.