The Tevinter Imperium V.S Cyrodil Empire

[ArlEammon]

Assuming that Tevinter lies somewhere north of Skyrim, yet with it's own climate, in place of Atmora, and Tevinter invades Cyrodil, who would win in a war between the two? Cyrodil, from what I see in Oblivion and the map of Tamriel, seems to be larger than Tevinter, and Skyrim is also not an insignificantly large kingdom. So let's assume this is thirty years in the future of Skyrim, and Tevinter invades Cyrodil, hell bent on conquering them all.

Cyrodil is the Empire from The Elder Scrolls Five. This Empire is no longer that large, although it still has three provinces and is refreshed from the civil war. Battle mages don't need to worry about possession of Dragon Age magic. The Tevinter Imperium has many magicians, more than Cyrodil, although their magicians are susceptible to demonic possession. Their empire is like the Roman Empire, possibly Mediterranean in climate, and Cyrodil has climates from the grasslands and forests of Cyrodil, to the Highlands and tundra of Skyrim, not to mention the mountains, hills and forests of High Rock. Their technology is equal, although Tevinter likely has crossbowmen, while Cyrodil only have bowmen. Cyrodil's warriors are well regulated and trained for war, while Tevinter has fought off the Qunari for many years all by themselves. Tevinter likely has far more magicians than Cyrodil, but Cyrodil's magicians don't need micromanagement.

[The Glyphstone]

You gotta give more information on these things, dude, for people who don't play that particular setting/game. I've never even heard of the Tevinter Imperium, and I'm vaguely familiar with Skyrim. Describe the combatants beyond their relative geography, their strengths and weaknesses and tech levels and stuff. Get us a good picture so we can argue properly.

[ArlEammon]

You gotta give more information on these things, dude, for people who don't play that particular setting/game. I've never even heard of the Tevinter Imperium, and I'm vaguely familiar with Skyrim. Describe the combatants beyond their relative geography, their strengths and weaknesses and tech levels and stuff. Get us a good picture so we can argue properly.


Hello. . . Here it is. I edited the OP.

[Seppl]

This question seems unanswerable to me. As far as my information goes, they are both pretty much generic sword & sorcery empires. Meaning that both sides have conventional medieval armies (or actually more like the style of the Roman empire with medieval arms) reinforced with mages. But the mages are just providing support on a tactical level, they can help a squad of fighters but they cannot cast spells that singlehandedly win the war. I do not see any particular tactical advantage for either side.

It would probably come down to logistics: Which side can muster the greater army; which side can supplant losses faster; which side can produce more weapons? And - most importantly - which side is able to better support a long, drawn out campaign on the home-front? Soldiers don't feed themselves. Again, it seems both sides are capable to support large armies in the field almost indefinitely.

In the end we would have to compare the actual numbers: Population size, industrial and agricultural production rates and so on. Which I don't think we have available. Given about equal technology levels, the size of the empires could matter. But again, Cyrodil may be larger but a lot of it has rather harsh living conditions which probably negates any size advantage. Again, we are at an impasse without actual numbers.


Therefore my prediction for this thread is that it will be totally derailed by page 3 with a debate about who would win, the Dovakin or the Inquisitor. With a heated side debate about the canonicity of Chim. :smallbiggrin:

[Misery Esquire]

:smallconfused:

The Cyrodiilic Empire has crossbows, available at least, they just lose them in TES IV for some reason.

The Imperial Legions, by TES V, have fought both the Oblivion Crisis and the Dominion War and before that they weren't really relaxing ; everything from peacekeeping, to hunting bandits, to fighting the mortal invasions/incursions. (Dreugh, Mannimarco, wandering monsters, one of the many civil wars...)

Imperial Battlemages may be at a low (Maybe. TES V doesn't mention them too much.) but previously they built themselves a space station in hell. Ok, more floating between the Daedric Realms and Nirn in a private bubble, but still. They regularly summon their demons, and occasionally punch through to the godlike Daedric Lords' realms (and unassociated areas) to wander around investigating. Unlike most of their Dragon Age counterparts*, every Imperial mage wears a full suit of heavy armour and is expected to be able to fight mundanely, no matter their skill with the arcane. Every warrior and rogue in TES can be expected to be a minor spellcaster on the side.

The residents of Nirn have also shown that they can take... Madly overdramatic steps to solve problems. From building giant god-heart powered robots, to a machine that eats souls to catch a moon, to discovering they're in a video game. Unfortunately the Septims are dead, and the Medes family only may have inherited their strange power of prophecy (Medes II seemed to know his line in the story), so the Empire probably won't be sending a lone hero in to claim victory.

The Elder Scrolls Six - The New World ; A mysterious new empire appeared, they seem to be planning on invading us, and we sent someone to solve it. Who was it, again... Can't remember. Oh well. You. Prisoner. Step down onto the dock, and tell me your name... :smalltongue:


But, yeah. What Seppl said.

*Unless things changed dramatically in Inquisitor.

[Eldan]

Eh, a mysterious new Empire won't necessarily provoke a new Hero. As far as I remember, the Akaviri Potentate was brought down by more mundane means and that was an outside Empire invading successfully for a while.

That said: do the Dragon Age mages do anything big, ever, in the backstory? Because otherwise, this is victory for Cyrodiil. I mean, they don't have high elves or Dunmer or Psijiics anymore, and the other side has demons, but their magic is just so much stronger. And less risky.

[Hyena]

First page of the thread, and somebody already mentioned CHIM. And this is why I hate The Elder Scrolls series.


That said: do the Dragon Age mages do anything big, ever, in the backstory?
Well, once they caused Blights. All of them. And possibly corrupted the Golden City. Possibly.

[lurkmeister]

In the Elder Scrolls series, the Tamriel Empire (centered in Cyrodiil -- note two I's) is heavily based on the Roman Legions.

As far as this speculation is concerned, it's fairly obvious that any Atmoran power would beat a declining Tamrielic Empire. And since you can kick Cyrodiil out of Skyrim -- and assassinate the Emperor -- in-game, if you choose to, the state would continue to decline.

In addition, Cyrodiil is in a state of cold war against the Thalmor (Nazi! High! Elves!) which would preclude marshaling forces against a second enemy, unless of course the enemy was bad enough to both of their interests that it would forge an alliance of convenience.

And in any event, in-game sources spill precious little about Atmora, other than it being the homeland of the Nords (think like Norsemen with magicks).

[Mando Knight]

And in any event, in-game sources spill precious little about Atmora, other than it being the homeland of the Nords (think like Norsemen with magicks).

Former homeland of the Nords (and actually all humans, as they came to Tamriel via Atmoran settlers). Atmora is north of Skyrim by some distance, and the north edge of Skyrim is pretty much frozen over by the 4th Era (which is the period of TESV: Skyrim)... Atmora is straight-up uninhabitable frozen wastes at that point.

Replacing it with a land that normally enjoys a more Mediterranean-style climate is going to freeze those poor sods over.

[Seppl]

Replacing it with a land that normally enjoys a more Mediterranean-style climate is going to freeze those poor sods over.We, the players, have seen the province of Cyrodiil getting transformed from jungle to English countryside between two games and nobody in-game found this strange, provided they even noticed the change. A new continent appearing out of nowhere, that at the same time has always been there, is nothing out of the ordinary to happen on Nirn. It will just confuse a few scholars who might wonder why there are no books on the Tevinter Imperium from before a certain date. Meteorologists may not even wink an eye at the climatic discontinuity, they are used to seeing such things all the time when they look at a map of the Empire.

[russdm]

I am going to have to go with Cyrodil Empire, because it has that special automaton, has an actual Mage's guild and Battlemages, while Anything Dragonage has no special automaton, has no or little mages (Aren't mages in Dragonage required to accept Templar control, get pasturized or made to feel no emotion, and are usually killed?) to employ. Plus, there is a wide range of spells available in Elder Scrolls, and while I don't know what spells are in Dragonage as I haven't played my copy of the first game yet, I have heard somewhat.

Good mages in Elder Scrolls can summon/conjure controllable demons, even in the forms of weapons. Mages in Dragonage are likely to get murdered if they cast spells, aren't they? Isn't mage practically non-existent in DragonAge?

(A side note: Who or What is CHIM?)

[ArlEammon]

I am going to have to go with Cyrodil Empire, because it has that special automaton, has an actual Mage's guild and Battlemages, while Anything Dragonage has no special automaton, has no or little mages (Aren't mages in Dragonage required to accept Templar control, get pasturized or made to feel no emotion, and are usually killed?) to employ. Plus, there is a wide range of spells available in Elder Scrolls, and while I don't know what spells are in Dragonage as I haven't played my copy of the first game yet, I have heard somewhat.

Good mages in Elder Scrolls can summon/conjure controllable demons, even in the forms of weapons. Mages in Dragonage are likely to get murdered if they cast spells, aren't they? Isn't mage practically non-existent in DragonAge?

(A side note: Who or What is CHIM?)

Mages in the Tevinter Imperium exist far far far greater in number than any other nation of Dragon Age.

[Forum Explorer]

I am going to have to go with Cyrodil Empire, because it has that special automaton, has an actual Mage's guild and Battlemages, while Anything Dragonage has no special automaton, has no or little mages (Aren't mages in Dragonage required to accept Templar control, get pasturized or made to feel no emotion, and are usually killed?) to employ. Plus, there is a wide range of spells available in Elder Scrolls, and while I don't know what spells are in Dragonage as I haven't played my copy of the first game yet, I have heard somewhat.

Good mages in Elder Scrolls can summon/conjure controllable demons, even in the forms of weapons. Mages in Dragonage are likely to get murdered if they cast spells, aren't they? Isn't mage practically non-existent in DragonAge?

(A side note: Who or What is CHIM?)

This is incorrect,

the Tevinter Imperium is the past empire of Dragon Age, when mages ruled the kingdom. This was before mages became rare, or were restricted at all. So they would full out summon demon armies, and (apparently) could summon and control dragons (well some of them). Though that's all history

They were all also blood mages, and once upon a time did crazy feats like sinking an elven city into the ground.

Well kinda. There is a current Tevinter Imperium which is much weaker. Still heavily mage based though, and pretty strong military wise. They've got elephant riders and dracolisk (whatever those are) riders as well. Blood magic is technically forbidden but pretty much everyone in power got their by being a blood mage. They do have golems, but only as purchased from Dwarves, so I don't know if it counts, and they don't have many of them anyways.

Mages don't get killed by their magic, they get possessed, which is much much worse for everyone involved. Demons can be bargained with, so they very well might sacrifice weaker mages to demons, and send them into Cyrodil to go on a demon powered rampage, summoning more demons and generally making life unpleasant.

[Eldan]

(A side note: Who or What is CHIM?)

CHIM is a concept in Elder Scrolls lore, mostly an in-joke, strongly inspired by Asian mysticism. A kind of enlightenment that gives near limitless power. It has to do with recognizing one's own place in the universe, one's sense of self and the fact that the universe is fictional.

That said, at this point in the timeline, it's pretty likely that everyone who ever gained CHIM is dead or gone and especially not fighting for the Empire.

[Legato Endless]

In the Elder Scrolls series, the Tamriel Empire (centered in Cyrodiil -- note two I's) is heavily based on the Roman Legions.


Except rather less competent all things considered.


They were all also blood mages, and once upon a time did crazy feats like sinking an elven city into the ground.

Barring OP's premise, I think Tevinter and Cryodil would probably ally to crush the Thalmor, given their mutual past history with fascist Elven Empires.

[Forum Explorer]

Barring OP's premise, I think Tevinter and Cryodil would probably ally to crush the Thalmor, given their mutual past history with fascist Elven Empires.

Was the Dragon Age elves fascist? I thought the Tevinter were just being ***** who wanted a bunch of slaves and new territory.

[VoxRationis]

I think Inquisitor had a lot of revelations about the ancient elves. I didn't like that much, myself; I liked all the ambiguity that surrounded history in Origins. Either way, the internal policies, fascist or no, of the ancient elves weren't particularly important to the Tevinter. They just wanted conquest and slaves.

Three words for those who doubt the strength of Tevinter's mages: Blood Wound, Scattershot.

Okay, for those who didn't play Origins, I'm referring to aspects of that game's mechanics. The spell Blood Wound, for a small amount of the caster's health, paralyzes and heavily damages every enemy (friendly-fire isn't a factor) in a large area. The (non-spell ability) Scattershot, available to seemingly every NPC archer by the mid-game, regardless of race or nation, stuns and damages a large number of people. Both are incredibly difficult to fight, particularly when used by multiple enemies one after the other.

Based on my own experiences with the Elder Scrolls, I'd say that equivalently spammable group-annihilating effects of that series aren't really on par with those.

[Misery Esquire]

I think Inquisitor had a lot of revelations about the ancient elves. I didn't like that much, myself; I liked all the ambiguity that surrounded history in Origins. Either way, the internal policies, fascist or no, of the ancient elves weren't particularly important to the Tevinter. They just wanted conquest and slaves.

Three words for those who doubt the strength of Tevinter's mages: Blood Wound, Scattershot.

Okay, for those who didn't play Origins, I'm referring to aspects of that game's mechanics. The spell Blood Wound, for a small amount of the caster's health, paralyzes and heavily damages every enemy (friendly-fire isn't a factor) in a large area. The (non-spell ability) Scattershot, available to seemingly every NPC archer by the mid-game, regardless of race or nation, stuns and damages a large number of people. Both are incredibly difficult to fight, particularly when used by multiple enemies one after the other.

Based on my own experiences with the Elder Scrolls, I'd say that equivalently spammable group-annihilating effects of that series aren't really on par with those.

Well, using the mechanics from any given game, lets go with Morrowind. I can make an fire 100/lightning 100/cold 100 for 1440 seconds (24 minutes) in 50 foot diameter, at the range of Line of Sight. That's 300 damage per second for 24 minutes. I can add on Summon Daedra, Drain Health (Also 100 for 24 minutes), Drain Magicka (Ditto) to the same spell.

Cyrodiilic mages also have the option to cast Absorb Magic(ka). And everyone is actually able to block arrows. :smalltongue:

[Seppl]

I am going to have to go with Cyrodil Empire, because it has that special automaton,
Do you mean the Numidium? That is an ancient lost artifact of legend that may not even have existed in the first place. It is definitely not available to the current empire.

[VoxRationis]

Well, using the mechanics from any given game, lets go with Morrowind. I can make an fire 100/lightning 100/cold 100 for 1440 seconds (24 minutes) in 50 foot diameter, at the range of Line of Sight. That's 300 damage per second for 24 minutes. I can add on Summon Daedra, Drain Health (Also 100 for 24 minutes), Drain Magicka (Ditto) to the same spell.

Cyrodiilic mages also have the option to cast Absorb Magic(ka). And everyone is actually able to block arrows. :smalltongue:

Firstly, the Empire we're talking about is the one from Skyrim, so Morrowind's mechanics aren't the most applicable. Secondly, the kind of spell a player can make with various exploits in TES games is very removed from the sort of magic available to the world at large—Imperial Battlemages do not throw that spell around, while the things I mentioned are used by people other than optimization-happy players.

[Misery Esquire]

Do you mean the Numidium? That is an ancient lost artifact of legend that may not even have existed in the first place. It is definitely not available to the current empire.

Numidium definitely (probably) existed. In some timelines. Which means it will always eventually will have had existed in the other timelines, as well. (Willan on-take, or late fore-when.)


Firstly, the Empire we're talking about is the one from Skyrim, so Morrowind's mechanics aren't the most applicable. Secondly, the kind of spell a player can make with various exploits in TES games is very removed from the sort of magic available to the world at large—Imperial Battlemages do not throw that spell around, while the things I mentioned are used by people other than optimization-happy players.

I was mostly joking about the fact that you are addressing the mechanics at all.

Also ; you are using a game that the Tevinter don't appear in to justify what they can do, I'm using a game that the Imperials did at least appear in, and so have the same options as the player. I could go over the Skyrim options, but regardless of the game, the issue is with addressing mechanics at all ;

The Imperials have all of the same things that are available to the player, but we never see them use it. But they are also reputed to do that sort of thing when we're not watching them, and they cast spells and rituals that are in no way possible or available for the player. So, where does that leave us for the discussion? They can only do what we see them do? That'd be unfortunate for basing the entire Imperial Battlemages on, since the only ones we see in Skyrim are the two that throw fire during the opening sequence.

[ArlEammon]

Numidium definitely (probably) existed. In some timelines. Which means it will always eventually will have had existed in the other timelines, as well. (Willan on-take, or late fore-when.)



I was mostly joking about the fact that you are addressing the mechanics at all.

Also ; you are using a game that the Tevinter don't appear in to justify what they can do, I'm using a game that the Imperials did at least appear in, and so have the same options as the player. I could go over the Skyrim options, but regardless of the game, the issue is with addressing mechanics at all ;

The Imperials have all of the same things that are available to the player, but we never see them use it. But they are also reputed to do that sort of thing when we're not watching them, and they cast spells and rituals that are in no way possible or available for the player. So, where does that leave us for the discussion? They can only do what we see them do? That'd be unfortunate for basing the entire Imperial Battlemages on, since the only ones we see in Skyrim are the two that throw fire during the opening sequence.

True. :D
I'm giving the Cyrodil Empire an edge in melee, for certain. Heavy armor seems better for Cyrodil's troops than for the soldiers of a mage army. Most soldiers in Dragon Age don't seem to have heavy armor.