Optimizing Moon Bolt

[Human Paragon 3]

I'd like to make a character who specializes in using Moon Bolt. How do I get the most bang for my moon bolt buck and hit as hard as possible as often as possible with the spell?

I'm using a spirit shaman chassis.

[Jeff the Green]

Hmm.

Metamagic could work. I'd go with a feat layout of:
Flaw: Magical Training
Flaw: Education
1st: Empower Spell
3rd: Maximize Spell
6th: Practical Metamagic (empower)
9th: Arcane Thesis (moon bolt)
12th: Invisible Spell
15th: Twin Spell
18th: Residual Magic

If you can, retrain Education after 9th to Invisible Spell, shift Twin Spell and Residual Magic down three levels. Maybe get Spontaneous Summoning or Quicken instead. Make sure you're Dragonblooded.

Basically, choose various metamagicked versions of moon bolt, along with utility and summoning. Starting at 9th, you get Empower for free, and everything else drops down one. Once you get Invisible Spell, they drop down another two. So eventually you have Empowered (1d4 * 1.5) at level 4, Empowered Maximized Invisible (4 + 1d4 * 0.5) at level 5, Empowered Twinned Invisible (2d4 * 1.5) at level 6, and Empowered Twinned Maximized Invisible (8 + 1d4) at level 8. Then with Residual Magic you can use a lower level slot after a higher one to get the same effect.

[xyianth]

In general, you would optimize this by metamagic (ab)use:

Alternative Source Spell: convert moon bolt into an arcane spell and count as an arcane caster
Empower Spell: useful metamagic for moon bolt
Arcane Disciple(magic): pre-req for Dweomerkeeper
Craft Wondrous Item or some other crafting feat: pre-req for Dweomerkeeper
Arcane Thesis(moon bolt): metamagic reduction + CL boost
Maximize Spell: useful metamagic for moon bolt
Invisible Spell or some other +0 metamagic feat: reduce cost on maximize through use of arcane thesis
Spirit Shaman 6/Dweomerkeeper 10/Holt Warden 1/Contemplative 1/X 2: 9th level spells, 3 domains(magic, plant, open), domain slots, metamagic reduction, supernatural spells, spell mantle
Results in the ability to spontaneously cast invisible empowered maximized moon bolts out of 4th level slots.

There is probably a more optimal way, but this is the basic idea.

[Venger]

Hmm.

Metamagic could work. I'd go with a feat layout of:
Flaw: Magical Training
Flaw: Education
1st: Empower Spell
3rd: Maximize Spell
6th: Practical Metamagic (empower)
9th: Arcane Thesis (moon bolt)
12th: Invisible Spell
15th: Twin Spell
18th: Residual Magic

If you can, retrain Education after 9th to Invisible Spell, shift Twin Spell and Residual Magic down three levels. Maybe get Spontaneous Summoning or Quicken instead. Make sure you're Dragonblooded.

Basically, choose various metamagicked versions of moon bolt, along with utility and summoning. Starting at 9th, you get Empower for free, and everything else drops down one. Once you get Invisible Spell, they drop down another two. So eventually you have Empowered (1d4 * 1.5) at level 4, Empowered Maximized Invisible (4 + 1d4 * 0.5) at level 5, Empowered Twinned Invisible (2d4 * 1.5) at level 6, and Empowered Twinned Maximized Invisible (8 + 1d4) at level 8. Then with Residual Magic you can use a lower level slot after a higher one to get the same effect.

all the metamagic advice is both sound and valid, but he needs an arcane caster level for arcane thesis

the simplest way is to roll mulan human and take southern magician (or handwave it and just roll human if your dm doesn't set your game in the realms and no one cares) which lets you cast divine spells as arcane (or vica versa)

[Jeff the Green]

all the metamagic advice is both sound and valid, but he needs an arcane caster level for arcane thesis

the simplest way is to roll mulan human and take southern magician (or handwave it and just roll human if your dm doesn't set your game in the realms and no one cares) which lets you cast divine spells as arcane (or vica versa)

That's what Magical Training is for. It lets you cast arcane spells (which is what the actual prereq is) so you can use Arcane Thesis.

[Venger]

That's what Magical Training is for. It lets you cast arcane spells (which is what the actual prereq is) so you can use Arcane Thesis.

that doesn't make moon bolt an arcane spell, though.

while magical training does let you qualify for AT by having arcane spells, you need the spell you select to be considered arcane (via southern magician or alternative spell source if your dm allows dragon magazine) to be able to use it on moon bolt.

[Jeff the Green]

that doesn't make moon bolt an arcane spell, though.

while magical training does let you qualify for AT by having arcane spells, you need the spell you select to be considered arcane (via southern magician or alternative spell source if your dm allows dragon magazine) to be able to use it on moon bolt.

Huh, I must have been thinking of another feat. Precocious Apprentice maybe?

Southern Magician and Alternative Source Spell don't work either then. You can cast it as an arcane spell; that doesn't mean it is an arcane spell when you choose the feat.

Instead you can use:

Divine Metamagic
Prophecy's Shaper
Residual Metamagic
Metamagic Rods
Metamagic School Focus
Dweomer Keeper

[Venger]

Huh, I must have been thinking of another feat. Precocious Apprentice maybe?

Southern Magician and Alternative Source Spell don't work either then. You can cast it as an arcane spell; that doesn't mean it is an arcane spell when you choose the feat.

Instead you can use:

Divine Metamagic
Prophecy's Shaper
Residual Metamagic
Metamagic Rods
Metamagic School Focus
Dweomer Keeper


I guess so.

I don't think so. the only prereq for AT is casting arcane spells. while it's selected for a specific spell, it's not actually a req.

I can see that reading of it, but that's pretty extreme.

human paragon 3, I advise you ask your GM. I don't see any reason he'd disallow it, but it's always nice to check in

yeah those are options too depending on what level your game's set to run at and how soon you need his up and running.

[Kraken]

Geomancer would work for making it arcane.

[Human Paragon 3]

The advice in the thread is a bit too intense, I think. How about some more reserved techniques for getting a good boost to moon bolt without taking 12 feats. It should work starting at level 7 on a Spirit Shaman if possible.

[A_S]

There isn't really a whole lot other than metamagic optimization to take an individual spell and make it more effective. There's some obvious stuff (make sure your casting stat is high, so your save DC's will be higher).

One thing to look into is the Fell Weaken feat, from The Book of Bad Latin. It's normally pretty bad, but if your whole thing is disabling enemies with Str damage, giving them an extra -4 Str with no save for a +1 metamagic is pretty good.

[Human Paragon 3]

Thanks, that's a good one.

[Valwyn]

Remember that if you want to use Spirit Shaman you'll need to boost your Cha for the DC and your Wis for the extra/higher level slots. If you can't spare the resources, Druid and Cleric could work better, but you might have to change the fluff significantly (Cleric might be easier to refluff if you are taking a spiritual angle).

If you just want to spam Moon Bolt, you may want to look for metamagics with different adjustments so you can it at different levels.
- Black Lore of Moil (+0) lets you add +4d6 negative energy damage to your spells. More of a blaster thing, but doesn't hurt to chip away some HP while you're at it (just be careful not to hit undead with this).
- Heighten Spell (+X) is an easy way to do this and it actually increases the DC of the spell. You could just pick up this one feat and be done with it if you just want to spam the spell as much as possible.
- Retributive Spell (+1) is an immediate action to save your bacon by lowering the damage you just took (or negating it, if the Str drop is enough to lower the accuracy). Kinda situational, so it might not be worth it considering the Spirit Shaman's casting style.
- Fell Drain (+2) could also be a solid choice because MB doesn't miss.
- Repeat Spell (+3) could be handy to really cripple a BBEG with Str damage. Not very useful against undead unless they have high saves and you need to tries to get them, though.
- Twin Spell (+4) could be quite nasty against a meleer. 5d4 x2 Str damage is potentially -20 Str.


Another way to go about it could be to simply take Innate Spell (but it's not practical). Take it as your 9th level feat and you can cast MB 3/day as a SLA. You can only take the feat once per spell, though.


Just some thoughts.

[Venger]

The advice in the thread is a bit too intense, I think. How about some more reserved techniques for getting a good boost to moon bolt without taking 12 feats. It should work starting at level 7 on a Spirit Shaman if possible.

by "too intense" do you mean it's too high-op for your table, or that we're assuming too much familiarity with weird tricks? is there something you had questions about? was there something you wanted explained in more detail?

if your dm doesn't allow metamagic, for example, then "optimizing" a single spell won't really be possible, unfortunately.

the lists posted thus far are options, you don't have to take all these things to make use of moon bolt effectively, just a couple of them woud be fine, like arcane thesis (to reduce metamagic cost) and a few others.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think the idea of jumping through a bunch of hoops to make the spell arcane to take arcane thesis was more work than I wanted, and also kind of smells. Using metamagic is fine. I think what I'd like is one or two metamagic tricks and a way to make it practical.

I don't want to base my entire character around moon bolt, but I do want to be able to use moon bolt repeatedly and effectively once it comes online. My current thinking is that I will grab Fell Weaken, and then maybe Sudden Maximize for emergencies. At some point I might dip a rebuking class and grab divine metamagic for Fell Weaken (or Twin, at higher levels, if we make it that far).

Applying metamagic to a 4th level spell is a bit daunting in general. I am pretty happy with just slapping Fell Weaken on it and boosting my DC as well as I can.

[Inevitability]

There isn't really a whole lot other than metamagic optimization to take an individual spell and make it more effective. There's some obvious stuff (make sure your casting stat is high, so your save DC's will be higher).

One thing to look into is the Fell Weaken feat, from The Book of Bad Latin. It's normally pretty bad, but if your whole thing is disabling enemies with Str damage, giving them an extra -4 Str with no save for a +1 metamagic is pretty good.

Does the strength-damage fulfill the 'spell must deal damage' requirement? Because if not, you're going to need to add some source of damage first.

[Aleolus]

Does MB allow for SR? Because if so then Fortify Spell would work better than Heighten Spell. It does the same thing, but also gives a +2 to caster level checks to overcome SR for every level up you prepare it

[Inevitability]

Does MB allow for SR? Because if so then Fortify Spell would work better than Heighten Spell. It does the same thing, but also gives a +2 to caster level checks to overcome SR for every level up you prepare it

It does allow for SR.

[Human Paragon 3]

Strength damage should qualify it, IMO. It says "damage" not "hit point damage."

[Telok]

Just picking up several Sudden Foo metamagic feats, a couple of metamagic rods, and 4th level Pearls of Power should do fine. The up side is that all of those have applications to your casting beyong Moon Bolt and don't rely on meta-cheese that a DM might have a different interpretation of.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The only metamagics I would highly recommend are Maximize spell and Easy Metamagic (Maximize Spell). Ending combat faster is always good and a consistent 20 Str damage is nice. Best part is you don't need to take them for a while.

[A_S]

Does the strength-damage fulfill the 'spell must deal damage' requirement? Because if not, you're going to need to add some source of damage first.
Pretty sure yes. The name "ability damage" suggests that it's a type of damage, and it's treated as such by various parts of the rules (if you get a critical hit with an ability that does ability damage, the ability damage is doubled; you can use an attack that does ability damage to sneak attack; there is an ability in the game that gives DR against ability damage; etc.).

[Venger]

Pretty sure yes. The name "ability damage" suggests that it's a type of damage, and it's treated as such by various parts of the rules (if you get a critical hit with an ability that does ability damage, the ability damage is doubled; you can use an attack that does ability damage to sneak attack; there is an ability in the game that gives DR against ability damage; etc.).

what ability is that? I know there's that spell in complete champion, but I don't know any classes that do.

[A_S]

what ability is that? I know there's that spell in complete champion, but I don't know any classes that do.
Eh, I was thinking of Strongheart Vest, but looking at it, it's not actually called out as "DR," it just works the same way.