Abathur character build.

[jangartharn1]

Hey guys how's it going? Alright I'll just get into what I want to ask. I wrote this in an earlier thread but my party has an assassin who is a bit mischievous and just killed my fighter with a good sneak attack. So for my new character I want to make an Abathur style character a guy who pretty much stays a really long ways away from any real fighting and "evolves" or buffs allies if anyone could help me on how I'd be able to do that i would appreciate that thanks guys. For now at least the character build needs to fit with a level 6 with 4,000 gold. Use that gold any way it will help the character build thanks so much everybody.

[Crake]

Wouldn't a role like that best be left to a cohort or NPC? Otherwise I feel like you won't really be taking part in the game at all, would you?

[jangartharn1]

The idea would more be like in heroes of the storm if you've ever played that I would hopefully be able to place my "symbiote" on my allies and that would be how I'd be with the party while staying safe.

[Crake]

The idea would more be like in heroes of the storm if you've ever played that I would hopefully be able to place my "symbiote" on my allies and that would be how I'd be with the party while staying safe.

I have played HotS, but I have not had a chance to play abathur. How does the symbiote work? How would it let you interact? Or would it merely let you cast buffs and whatnot on the characters from a super long distance?

[jangartharn1]

The idea with the symbiote is that you cast it on allies and it lets you give allies a shield it also allows you to do an aoe spike burst around them and shoot a spike out of the symbiote from the allies position.

[jangartharn1]

Ya the symbiote allows you to cast spells through your allies while you sit in the safety of the fountain.

[Crake]

But if that's the case, why not just have everyone do that, and use disposable minions? Then you can start building an army of minions and evolving them to suite your needs, having specialized ones for different circumstances until oh wait, you're playing starcraft :smallconfused:

I mean, if you have this tactic at your disposal, why would you use it on powerful allies rather than just zombies, or bound creatures or something?

[jangartharn1]

That's true very true. In that case would you know of a class that. I could just have an army of disposable minions that I could buff up and send them into combat while I sit a ways away?

[jangartharn1]

I'm thinking Necromancer could work for this idea but then I wouldn't know what feats to take to be able to "evolve" and buff my zombies and ghouls.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Try looking through here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444394-New-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook for ideas on how to build a good Necromancer that buffs their minions. Granted, most of those tricks are done at creation of the minion, but there are plenty of spells that allow other buffs.

[Chronos]

Wait, back up: You're in a group where murdering other PCs is just considered "mischievous"? And the other players let him get away with it? It sounds to me like the "far from the front lines" where you really need to be is "at another table, with a different group of players".

[jangartharn1]

Ya I'll admit our group isn't the best but outside the game the assassin player is one of my best friends he's just role playing his assassin and I can't hold him responsible for that.

[nedz]

Ya I'll admit our group isn't the best but outside the game the assassin player is one of my best friends he's just role playing his assassin and I can't hold him responsible for that.

Er, no. As a player he is responsible for the actions of his character — that's kind of the point of RPGs.
Claiming "That's just what my character would do" is generally regarded as poor play.

But if you're fine with that, well whatever.

Another good minionmancy type class is a summoner: Druid, Wizard or Cleric normally.

[ElderLucian]

If you are playing PF you should check out the Tactician if your group allows Psionics

[jangartharn1]

Er, no. As a player he is responsible for the actions of his character — that's kind of the point of RPGs.
Claiming "That's just what my character would do" is generally regarded as poor play.

But if you're fine with that, well whatever.

Another good minionmancy type class is a summoner: Druid, Wizard or Cleric normally.
Hmm it really depends I mean in the end I actually feel the opposite if they are doing what their character would do I find that to be good role playing. I mean the assassin is a chaotic evil guy who didn't like how my fighter kept getting in the way of his evil deeds so he got rid of me. Sure I'm sad my guy died but I'm not like "you suck you just murdered my guy!"

[Barstro]

This is exactly the kind of cheese a Pathfinder Witch with the Scar Hex can do at higher levels. Perhaps your DM will allow you to do something similar since the mechanics are in place for another game.

[jangartharn1]

This is exactly the kind of cheese a Pathfinder Witch with the Scar Hex can do at higher levels. Perhaps your DM will allow you to do something similar since the mechanics are in place for another game.

Hmm I'll look into it. The problem with that is my dm is super strict on the rules if it's not in a 3.5 book it's probably not real to him.

[Essence_of_War]

Have you considered being a psion-shaper and going into the constructor PrC and evolving an efficient army of astral constructs?

It is not quite abathur's hat, but it keeps you out of the hand-to-hand fighting, and gives you a delicious swarm of constructs that get bigger, stronger and better abilities to choose from as you level up and so fits with the flavor of abathur's continuous evolution pretty well. Plus Greater Concealing Amorpha is on the shaper list and so is Ectoplasmic Cocoon, both seem right up Abathur's alley.

More of a locust-aba than a hat-aba build. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Try to find a good Outsider with the [Evil] subtype that you can squeeze into as few LA and HD as possible, and then go for Fiend of Possession. You won't be able to be far away, but you can "ride" items and allies to give them bonuses and keep yourself hidden and safe, and you could even pick up psion levels as your non-PrC stuff in order to have something to actively do from within items or while possessing somebody but not controlling them.


I am not an expert on FoP, so I will defer to others if anybody has good advice for you on that one. There's probably a handbook somewhere on these forums.

Edit: Found a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0) on another forum. I can't vouch for the quality of it, as I haven't read it yet.

[Segev]

Alright, a quick search of the d20 srd yields very very slim pickings for low-LA/HD [Evil] Outsiders that are PCable. The best bet might be a dretch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch), which is an ugly little twerp. Worse, if you want to go Psion to have things to do, you're not very bright. (Wilder is an option, but it's not a very good class.)

The racial mods for a dretch are: Str +2, Con +4, Int -4. It has ECL 4 (LA +2, 2 Outsider HD).

Worse, your racial Telepathy is restricted to creatures that speak Abyssal; this is bad because you cannot speak at all. So even if you understand other languages, you can at best pantomime until you manage to get somebody to learn Abyssal so you can telepathically communicate with them.

But, you'll meet the Will save by ECL 5. It'll be a scramble to get the K:Arcane you need, but the rest should be doable for your first level of Fiend of Possession to start at ECL 6.

Oh, and by level 8, you can start buying off your LA. By level 11, you're only held back a little by your 2 Outsider HD, and your LA will be gone.

[jangartharn1]

These are pretty awesome character ideas so far I'm excited to see more thanks everybody so far who has contributed.

[MasterFu]

Pathfinder Alchemists get an ability where they can create simulacrums and shift their consciousness to them (anywhere on the same plane), but not until lvl 10. There's even an archetype (clone master) that specializes in simulacrum-type effects.

They can be pretty effective buffers, though. I would recommend a tumor familiar (slug), infusion discovery (so that you can hand out your spells like candy), the evolved familiar feat to give it a tentacle with 5' reach, and then procure a way for it to move around. Say, a bloody skeleton. Let your skeleton carry the buffs and your familiar can dole them out. If you chose the protector archetype for your familiar, you can take guardian's return as a feat and that will let the familiar teleport back to you once a day as long as you're within empathic link range, which is about a mile.

The only other hurdle at that point would be communication with the familiar.

Alternatively, you could just use alter self on the familiar followed by an improved hat of disguise to make it last until they took off the hat. Either way, you're just killing time until you can use the simulacrum trick.

[jangartharn1]

Alright real quick I'm really interested in playing the dretch as its stats were layed out in an earlier post. But the problem how would a dretch fit into a party of humans and half elves?

[Jergmo]

A Conjuration-focused Cancer Mage (or otherwise using Necrotic Cyst spells), with Aberrant feats.

Boom! Abathur!

Another thing that isn't that good but works is Alienist, so you can summon Aberrations (IE Zerg).

[Segev]

Alright real quick I'm really interested in playing the dretch as its stats were layed out in an earlier post. But the problem how would a dretch fit into a party of humans and half elves?

Alright. Let's take a more serious look at this, then! You're going to need:

+5 Will save (doable with the +3 native from your Outsider HD and a +2 from any Will-favored class, e.g. Psion, Wilder, or Lurk).
Outsider [Evil] type and subtype, provided by being a Dretch.
6 ranks of Hide (meaning at least 3 levels, and Hide as a class skill).

I suggest either [LA 2/Outsider 2/Psychic Rogue 1/Fiend of Possession 1] or [LA 2/Outsider 2/Lurk 1/Fiend of Possession 1]. Fortunately, your Outsider HD give you the skill rank CAP of 6 before your level of FoP.

So, we know you can achieve FoP by "game start" for your little Dretch.

A Dretch already has 5 ranks of Hide as its standard expenditure of skill points. (You could re-assign them, but you won't.) This means you could reasonably even go for Psion 1 rather than Lurk or Psychic Rogue; it'd only cost you 2 SP to get that last rank you need at ECL 5.

This amounts to a total native Hide score of +10, which is pretty respectable. You also have, as a first level Fiend of Possession, the ability to assume Ethereal Form at will as a (Su) ability.

So, you can hide pretty well from most things, allowing you to be with the party without causing them trouble.


Now, as to WHY you'd be with the party... that's a little trickier. What is their alignment? What are their goals? What might draw a budding Fiend of Possession to want to help them out? You're a low-ranking little demon who's lucked into finding his way to the Prime without an immediate supervisor or superior. You've practiced being a Fiend of Possession, which means you're all set up to start trying to wreak subtle mischief or advance your power without being noticed. You can set up patsies for your nefarious schemes, or you can be a legitimate help to allies who benefit you in some way.

What does the party want? What do they do and why? You can try to mold your goals to fit with theirs, explaining why you seek them out. Hiding and staying out of sight until they're used to you and your aid can help make them sympathetic when you reveal what you are, if that would normally upset them.

[Mr.Moron]

Abathur is so far removed from the usual D&D character it seems the concept might be better served by something totally homebrew than cobbling together some vaguely "Buffs & Minions" themed set of class features from existing materials.

[jangartharn1]

Alright. Let's take a more serious look at this, then! You're going to need:

+5 Will save (doable with the +3 native from your Outsider HD and a +2 from any Will-favored class, e.g. Psion, Wilder, or Lurk).
Outsider [Evil] type and subtype, provided by being a Dretch.
6 ranks of Hide (meaning at least 3 levels, and Hide as a class skill).

I suggest either [LA 2/Outsider 2/Psychic Rogue 1/Fiend of Possession 1] or [LA 2/Outsider 2/Lurk 1/Fiend of Possession 1]. Fortunately, your Outsider HD give you the skill rank CAP of 6 before your level of FoP.

So, we know you can achieve FoP by "game start" for your little Dretch.

A Dretch already has 5 ranks of Hide as its standard expenditure of skill points. (You could re-assign them, but you won't.) This means you could reasonably even go for Psion 1 rather than Lurk or Psychic Rogue; it'd only cost you 2 SP to get that last rank you need at ECL 5.

This amounts to a total native Hide score of +10, which is pretty respectable. You also have, as a first level Fiend of Possession, the ability to assume Ethereal Form at will as a (Su) ability.

So, you can hide pretty well from most things, allowing you to be with the party without causing them trouble.


Now, as to WHY you'd be with the party... that's a little trickier. What is their alignment? What are their goals? What might draw a budding Fiend of Possession to want to help them out? You're a low-ranking little demon who's lucked into finding his way to the Prime without an immediate supervisor or superior. You've practiced being a Fiend of Possession, which means you're all set up to start trying to wreak subtle mischief or advance your power without being noticed. You can set up patsies for your nefarious schemes, or you can be a legitimate help to allies who benefit you in some way.

What does the party want? What do they do and why? You can try to mold your goals to fit with theirs, explaining why you seek them out. Hiding and staying out of sight until they're used to you and your aid can help make them sympathetic when you reveal what you are, if that would normally upset them.

Man this is pretty amazing thanks for taking all this time to do this I appreciate it. This is great it's like I'm reading right out of the monster manual entry. ;)

[Segev]

Glad to help! Make sure to read the Dretch entry thoroughly; I didn't list all of their powers. (Amongst other things, they can summon another Dretch once per day, albeit with only a percentage chance to do so.)

The big thing I think you'll need to make sure of is to figure out why your new PC is interested in the party, and why the party will want him around. It will possibly be a hard sell, depending on the party's alignment and personalities. However, you can play it a number of ways! Good luck!

[jangartharn1]

Alright I read over the dretch it seems pretty reasonable. The problem I've run into is since the dretch is a demon my dm thinks he's op and says no how would I convince him otherwise?

[Barstro]

The problem I've run into is since the dretch is a demon my dm thinks he's op and says no how would I convince him otherwise?

This is where I become upset at the way some DMs are. To my mind, characters have the following; 1) Abilities that 2) come about a certain way in order to 3) have an effect on the game. If your DM is willing to agree that you have an ability that can have a certain effect, then #2 "the fluff to make it happen" should just be about good roleplaying.

(this came up in another thread about someone wanting to make Inspector Gadget in Pathfinder. One solution that I liked was creating an Alchemist. It had all the results that the original poster wanted; it just needed to be considered extending a limb, etc. instead of quaffing a potion.)

To your case specifically, if the DM is fine with the result but doesn't like it being a demon, just fluff away the demon. If the two of you (and the rest of the group) can agree to what the powers are and what the mechanics will be, then you should be able to go ahead with it. If your DM is against Abathur in general, then there is nothing you can do to make it happen since he will always find some flaw that allows a veto.

Personally, without more specifics, I'd be against the concept as a whole*. You seem to be finding a way to aid in combat without being there. But I could be mistaken as to your overall concept.

*Still less powerful than a caster who Magic Jars all the time, but that's a straw man argument.

[jangartharn1]

This is where I become upset at the way some DMs are. To my mind, characters have the following; 1) Abilities that 2) come about a certain way in order to 3) have an effect on the game. If your DM is willing to agree that you have an ability that can have a certain effect, then #2 "the fluff to make it happen" should just be about good roleplaying.

(this came up in another thread about someone wanting to make Inspector Gadget in Pathfinder. One solution that I liked was creating an Alchemist. It had all the results that the original poster wanted; it just needed to be considered extending a limb, etc. instead of quaffing a potion.)

To your case specifically, if the DM is fine with the result but doesn't like it being a demon, just fluff away the demon. If the two of you (and the rest of the group) can agree to what the powers are and what the mechanics will be, then you should be able to go ahead with it. If your DM is against Abathur in general, then there is nothing you can do to make it happen since he will always find some flaw that allows a veto.

Personally, without more specifics, I'd be against the concept as a whole*. You seem to be finding a way to aid in combat without being there. But I could be mistaken as to your overall concept.

*Still less powerful than a caster who Magic Jars all the time, but that's a straw man argument.

Hmm you make a very point here. The main reason I'm trying to play a dretch/abathur character build is because we have so much front line and we also have plenty of rouges I kind of wanted to jump outside the "box" that our characters are in with almost everybody on our party having similar characters.

[Ryuuk]

Look at the Silthilar from Lords of Madness. They're monsters with a very appropriate creature type of Aberration (Shapechanger, Swarm). Immortal researchers that love to carve flesh. (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/f/f7/Silthilar.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/360?cb=20120912110802) They also supply some of the best grafts in the game.

As is, one would serve extremely well as an Abathur-like NPC.

As a PC though, not too sure.

[Segev]

To convince your DM is a matter that requires a lot of information. What about it does he think is overpowered? Is there anything specific about "a demon" that is OP? The Dretch is actually a pretty weak monster, by itself. It's scariest ability, I think, is the ability to summon another Dretch, and that's neither reliable nor all that powerful (and, if you build a PC Dretch with an unusually high Int, your fellows will be IDIOTS compared to you). But to convince him that it's not overpowered will require finding out what his fears are and addressing them. What is it he thinks it will do to overwhelm the game?

[jangartharn1]

To convince your DM is a matter that requires a lot of information. What about it does he think is overpowered? Is there anything specific about "a demon" that is OP? The Dretch is actually a pretty weak monster, by itself. It's scariest ability, I think, is the ability to summon another Dretch, and that's neither reliable nor all that powerful (and, if you build a PC Dretch with an unusually high Int, your fellows will be IDIOTS compared to you). But to convince him that it's not overpowered will require finding out what his fears are and addressing them. What is it he thinks it will do to overwhelm the game?

He thinks since it's a demon it's automatically op I think he's thinking of a pit lord when I ask him about being a dretch.

[Segev]

He thinks since it's a demon it's automatically op I think he's thinking of a pit lord when I ask him about being a dretch.

Then step one is to just get him to listen long enough to show him the stat block.

I can try to help a little by writing it as it would be for a PC race, rather than as a monster entry:

Type: Outsider [Evil]
Size: Small (like a Halfling or gnome)
Speed: 20 ft.
+5 natural armor
Standard attack: 1 claw (1d6+str mod base damage)
Full attack: 2 claws (as above) and 1 bite (1d4+ half str mod base damage)

Abilities: Str +2, Con +4, Int -4

+2 bonus to Survival for following tracks as a racial trait

Damage Reduction 5/[cold iron OR good]
Darkvision 60 ft.
Immune to electricity and poison
Resistance 10 to acid, cold, and fire
Telepathy (with anything that speaks Abyssal) 100 ft.

1/day spell-like abilities - scare DC 12+ChaMod, stinking cloud DC 13+ChaMod, as a second-level caster

1/day spell-like ability - Summon another dretch, equivalent to a first-level spell. Only has a 35% chance to succeed. If it succeeds, the other dretch cannot use this ability while summoned, and remains summoned for only 1 hour.

2 Outsider HD, which grant it 32-5xIntMod skill points with Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Search, and Survival as class skills

+2 Level Adjustment


So, all of the above is a 4th level character. Add 1 more level of whatever base class you want (making sure you can get Hide to 6 ranks, so you need at least 2 sp if you don't take something with Hide as a class skill), and then for your 6th level you'll take Fiend of Possession 1.

That's a non-trivial set of abilities, but for a 4th-level character it's nothing overwhelming.

[jangartharn1]

Then step one is to just get him to listen long enough to show him the stat block.

I can try to help a little by writing it as it would be for a PC race, rather than as a monster entry:

Type: Outsider [Evil]
Size: Small (like a Halfling or gnome)
Speed: 20 ft.
+5 natural armor
Standard attack: 1 claw (1d6+str mod base damage)
Full attack: 2 claws (as above) and 1 bite (1d4+ half str mod base damage)

Abilities: Str +2, Con +4, Int -4

+2 bonus to Survival for following tracks as a racial trait

Damage Reduction 5/[cold iron OR good]
Darkvision 60 ft.
Immune to electricity and poison
Resistance 10 to acid, cold, and fire
Telepathy (with anything that speaks Abyssal) 100 ft.

1/day spell-like abilities - scare DC 12+ChaMod, stinking cloud DC 13+ChaMod, as a second-level caster

1/day spell-like ability - Summon another dretch, equivalent to a first-level spell. Only has a 35% chance to succeed. If it succeeds, the other dretch cannot use this ability while summoned, and remains summoned for only 1 hour.

2 Outsider HD, which grant it 32-5xIntMod skill points with Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Search, and Survival as class skills

+2 Level Adjustment


So, all of the above is a 4th level character. Add 1 more level of whatever base class you want (making sure you can get Hide to 6 ranks, so you need at least 2 sp if you don't take something with Hide as a class skill), and then for your 6th level you'll take Fiend of Possession 1.

That's a non-trivial set of abilities, but for a 4th-level character it's nothing overwhelming.

I can't tell you how thankful I am segev for your help. With this info I think I'll be able to convince him I'm appreciative that you've spent all this time doing this.

[Acanous]

If you can somehow swing Cancer Mage and War Weaver at the same time, perhaps in to Legacy Champion to advance War Weaver... that'd be basically exactly what you want

[Segev]

I think, by the by, that you're DEFINITELY going to want Psion or Wilder as your one non-FoP class level to start with. Psion preferably, but it will require having a 15+ in Int before racial mods to make sure you can manifest even first level powers. Wilder is Cha-based, but gets only 1 power. Psion gets to know 3 (and, if you're a Telepath, which I heartily recommend, you can pick up Mindlink as one of those powers and use it in a pinch to communicate with your party, since it's unlikely any of them speak Abyssal).

Choose your 1 wilder power or your other 2 psion powers carefully. You want things that are useful to manifest while possessing an object. Crystal Shard isn't terrible, though it'll mostly be a one-and-done at your current level of psion. If your Int isn't too low (and, if you're going Psion, you should try to get it as high as possible...which is 14 max unless your DM is generous with his stat generation rules), you might try psionic charm and attraction, since those will let you make people love you and love your partymates (if they fail will saves, DC 15 at the highest). Matter agitation has the benefit of lasting a whole minute at ML 1 and offering no save, so after a couple of rounds you can make somebody's armor do 1d6 fire damage each round, for example. Also good for just igniting things. Skate could be funny while possessing an object, enabling you to slide it around at a speed of 15 ft., though it's mostly a party trick. Psionic grease is a decent choice with little to no save, as well, for battlefield control.


Hm. I suppose you could alternatively go Warlock, rather than anything psionic. You'd be able to use your Invocation and your Eldrich Blast just fine. And it's cha-based. So that might be a better choice, now that I think about it. Baleful utterance is thematic, if you can find shatter to be useful. Eldrich spear, alternatively, could give you a nicely mid-ranged attack, even while possessing something.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm those are some good class ideas for a dretch. I never thought of wilder hmm those all sound good so far.

[Segev]

For a Dretch, I'd normally suggest Rogue. Psychic Rogue or Lurk would thus probably be good for something like this, except that you'll be focusing so heavily on your Fiend of Possession talents that the Rogue and Lurk contributions would be negligible. You'd mostly get the psionic powers out of it.

A Fiend of Possession is going to focus on being in possession of objects more than anything else, so they really need either a class that gives them spell-like abilities or psionic powers: things they can use without physical form or even the ability to speak. That's why Warlock works: all its--ah, shoot, no. It's spell-like abilities specifically require somatic components. So that's out. Wilder or Psion is probably your best bet. Maybe Binder? I haven't really looked at it for this kind of purpose. The various Incarnum classes are probably not worth it, because you have to "wear" the soulmelds.

[jangartharn1]

For a Dretch, I'd normally suggest Rogue. Psychic Rogue or Lurk would thus probably be good for something like this, except that you'll be focusing so heavily on your Fiend of Possession talents that the Rogue and Lurk contributions would be negligible. You'd mostly get the psionic powers out of it.

A Fiend of Possession is going to focus on being in possession of objects more than anything else, so they really need either a class that gives them spell-like abilities or psionic powers: things they can use without physical form or even the ability to speak. That's why Warlock works: all its--ah, shoot, no. It's spell-like abilities specifically require somatic components. So that's out. Wilder or Psion is probably your best bet. Maybe Binder? I haven't really looked at it for this kind of purpose. The various Incarnum classes are probably not worth it, because you have to "wear" the soulmelds. I'll look into the binder and wilder and see which one would look better. I think I've figured out the problem on why my dm is kind of on the fence of the idea of me playing a dretch. I think he's thinking since everybody else in our group are just humans and half elves he thinks it's just not fair to the other players that I'd play a dretch.

[Segev]

I'll look into the binder and wilder and see which one would look better. I think I've figured out the problem on why my dm is kind of on the fence of the idea of me playing a dretch. I think he's thinking since everybody else in our group are just humans and half elves he thinks it's just not fair to the other players that I'd play a dretch.

So it's a uniqueness issue?

I can see that. And it could be difficult to work into a party (the easiest way being that he stays hidden all the time). From a power perspective, the dretch is not really any stronger than the others in the party should be.

I would see if his only problem is the race. If he's okay with the concept and class, we can come up with ways to get you into the class through house rules. Just house-ruling a tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) to have the [Evil] subtype, or waiving the requirement to be an Outsider [Evil] would work. Heck, that last one would let you play a human psion going into it. This would honestly be a much more powerful build, because having 2nd or 3rd level powers to mainfest from inside your possessed object would be better than anything the Dretch can do. The Dretch, too, suffers from being an ugly and obvious demon when it isn't hidden.

I don't suppose you could get your DM to post here so we could talk with him about his concerns? He may not be convinced, but it's easier to talk directly to somebody to figure out what their goals, concerns, etc. are than to try to play "telephone" through an intermediary. Among other things, he'll have insight into how he sees the party dynamic and how it may or may not work with this new character.

[jangartharn1]

Alright I'll try to get him to post here on the thread. But your right I think a tiefling would be way more powerful then a dretch.

[jangartharn1]

Alright he doesn't have an account on here so he's not sure if he wants to make one just to talk about this but I think I can convince him by the end of the day. ;)

[Segev]

Alright he doesn't have an account on here so he's not sure if he wants to make one just to talk about this but I think I can convince him by the end of the day. ;)

If it'd be easier for him, he could also write up a post and email it to you and have you post it. Though I think it'd really be easier to join the board himself and post.

[jangartharn1]

Alright I talked to my dm he's not against the idea of the build he's fine with it. He's against being a dretch since it's not really a "player" race.

[Segev]

Alright I talked to my dm he's not against the idea of the build he's fine with it. He's against being a dretch since it's not really a "player" race.

Then the easiest solution would be to ask him to waive the type and subtype requirements for Fiend of Possession, and play a more normal race, taking levels of PC classes all the way up. Without the racial requirement, you just need a base Will save of +5 and 6 ranks of Hide. You can achieve that by level 3 if you have two classes that have a favored Will save. I'd go for Psion (Telepath or Shaper) 2/Lurk 1/Fiend of Possession 3.

Levels 1 and 2 as a Psion, then your Lurk level you buy up all 6 ranks of Hide. You'll have a Will save of +5 and 6 ranks of Hide, as well as a moderately good power point pool. So you qualify for your PrC by level 4. You'll be done with it by level 7, and I suggest running Psion up the rest of the way.

Others might have a better suggestion than Lurk/Psion, but the key is you need two classes with Will favored, or you won't be able to get the Will save of +5 until level 6, and thus can't get into FoP before level 7.

I wouldn't press this point with him, but I will point out that the Dretch has rules for being a player race. That's what it's Level Adjustment is for. But he's right that it was initially designed as a monster race. And if he's not comfortable with it, an alternative wherein he grants house rules permissions will likely make a stronger PC anyway.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm alright I'll talk to him. The problem is he only allows basic races......and orcs and lizard folk and cat folk. So what race would work for an FOP out of those races?

[jangartharn1]

Scratch that he will allow any race with a level adjustment of 0.

[Segev]

Mechanically, any race is good for it if he's willing to waive the Outsider[Evil] requirement.

Fluff-wise... I'm not the guru of races that some are around here. Tiefling...has a level adjustment, never mind. Won't work.

You could go Elan; its racial abilities are actually only so-so in conjunction with the FoP, but fluff-wise you could claim your FoP shenanigans are related to you being thought-given-flesh and pushing your thought-patterns into other things.

Mechanically, I think human is likely your best bet. That extra feat and skill point per level will be NICE. If others have suggestions, though, they might be better.


Halfling and gnome would give you small size and better hiding when not hiding in objects. Gnome would also give you a few spell-like abilities, all of which you could use from within the object.

[nedz]

IIRC there is a Lesser Tiefling defined somewhere, which has LA 0

But Tiefling is Outsider (native) not Tiefling (Evil).

[jangartharn1]

Alright I'm trying to think are their any outsider (evil) playable races besides the dretch?

[Segev]

Alright I'm trying to think are their any outsider (evil) playable races besides the dretch?

The dretch is the only one with so low of an ECL. You're not going to find one with +0 LA, sadly.

[jangartharn1]

The dretch is the only one with so low of an ECL. You're not going to find one with +0 LA, sadly.

Ahh I see. Luckily enough I reminded my dm he let everybody have a free magic item and I didn't get one. He took that into consideration and said I could run a dretch.

[Almarck]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist

Assuming PF material is valid, this might come in handy.

The class is using psychic powers to affect the body.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm I'll look into the book thanks for the info. ;)

[GilesTheCleric]

The dretch is the only one with so low of an ECL. You're not going to find one with +0 LA, sadly.

I can corroborate this. There aren't any playable creatures that I could find in 3e for the task -- I recently made a very similar build. It's not possible without some cheese and breaking WBL, two things your GM likely is opposed to.

[nedz]

I think that the cheapest one is Kaorti (FF p108) 2 RHD and +2 LA — which is the same as Dretch.
Dretch is actually Outsider (Tanar’ri, Evil, Chaos).

IIRC there is some feat which gives you the Evil moniker ?
Or maybe a Template ?

[jangartharn1]

I think that the cheapest one is Kaorti (FF p108) 2 RHD and +2 LA — which is the same as Dretch.
Dretch is actually Outsider (Tanar’ri, Evil, Chaos).

IIRC there is some feat which gives you the Evil moniker ?
Or maybe a Template ?

What does ff stand for per chance? I'm guessing final fantasy d20 campaign setting? Ya sorry I'm just curious since I've heard ff used for many different things in dnd.

[Segev]

What does ff stand for per chance? I'm guessing final fantasy d20 campaign setting? Ya sorry I'm just curious since I've heard ff used for many different things in dnd.

FF is Fiend Folio. It's also the book the Fiend of Possession class comes from, incidentally.

Glad he'll let you play the dretch, since you liked that idea. How do you plan to play him with the party, out of curiosity? What's your personality going to be like? Your goals? Your modus operendi?

[GilesTheCleric]

What does ff stand for per chance? I'm guessing final fantasy d20 campaign setting? Ya sorry I'm just curious since I've heard ff used for many different things in dnd.

The typical campaign settings mentioned here are Eberron (Eb), Forgotten Realms (FR), Greyhawk (Gh, the default setting), and Dragonlance (Dl? I've never seen it abbreviated). There's other "settings", too: Sandstorm (Ss, Sand, It's Hot Outside), Frostburn (Fb, It's Cold Outside), Stormwrack (Sw, Sto, It's Wet Outside), Ghostwalk (Gw, It's Scary Outside), and Oriental Adventures (OA). There's also some 3rd party settings like Kamalar, Ravenloft, Legend of the Five Rings, and older official settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Red Steel, Maztica, and Spelljammer.

WotC and the folks on the forums use different book abbreviations sometimes. You can find most of WotC's abbreviations at the bottom of this page (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc). Most abbreviations used by posters here are fairly self explanatory and follow a pattern. eg. Lords of Madness (LoM), Cityscape (Cs), Complete Arcane (CAr), Complete Adventurer (CAd), Complete Mage (CM).

Edit: FF stands for either Fiend Folio, as mentioned above, or Flat-Footed (either AC or the condition).

[SangoProduction]

Just subscribing to this

[GilesTheCleric]

In order to subscribe, you can press the "thread tools" button on the top right of the thread box, rather than having to post in the thread.

[SangoProduction]

In order to subscribe, you can press the "thread tools" button on the top right of the thread box, rather than having to post in the thread.

ah, ok. thanks

[jangartharn1]

I actually haven't thought of that yet I've been so busy trying to earn playing a dretch I haven't even thought of personality. ;)

[jangartharn1]

Do you have any good personality ideas per chance? I was thinking about kind of do abathur from starcraft a bit but he talk like stitch from lilo and stitch ex: ha punch dretchy!

[jangartharn1]

[QUOTE=jangartharn1;20181102]Do you have any good personality ideas per chance? I was thinking about having him talk like stitch from lilo and stitch ex: ha punch dretchy!

[jangartharn1]

Sorry about that guys I double posted my bad. :)

[nedz]

More like quad posted :smallbiggrin:

You can edit posts, or even delete them.

[Segev]

I have watched my brother play Abathur a bit, but I have not played him, myself, nor have I played the Heart of the Swarm campaign to learn his personality from that. So any suggestions I give will be based on the FoP class and the dretch-as-a-demon, combined a bit with some design towards being party-compatible.

Speaking of which, can you tell us a bit about your party? The other PCs, their personalities and goals, etc.? That will help develop the dretch Fiend of Possession goals and personality to align and make him compatible.


Dretches are one step above the lowest of the low in the demonic hierarchy. This isn't anything formal (they're Chaotic, after all), but they're the second-weakest kind of demon and they're rather stupid to boot (half as smart as an average human, and not even 2/3 as smart as an average orc). They, like all demons, are literally made of capricious cruelty. That's what the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes mean: your physical form has those traits as literal components to your being.

That doesn't mean they can't play well with others, though! Especially if you're an unusually intelligent Dretch (how do you generate stats in your campaign?).

Your character has taken a MOST unusual path for a dretch. A path of class-based self-improvement, moving into out-and-out possession techniques. If you go with Psion or Lurk as your base class (which you're only taking 1 level of for now, but which will be important later! I recommend Psion over Lurk just because it will serve you better at higher level, when you're throwing powers around from inside objects and people. Lurk will require you to be out in your own form or actively controlling your possessed victim to use a lot of its abilities, which doesn't sound like what you want to be doing.)

An Int-based class (Psion or Lurk) will call for you to really push your Int high, to overcome that racial -4 penalty. You could go for something based on Cha (e.g. Wilder), which'd be easier, but...well, I am biased towards the int-based builds, so that will show here.

If you are an unusually intelligent Dretch (Int 12+, and for a Psion you really WANT a 14 for starters...which takes an 18 "rolled" or "bought"), then you will be able to have unusually well-thought-out goals and plans. Rather than petty cruelties just to snicker at, you can plan for allies and refrain from doing things to antagonize them on the basis that they're useful for greater things.

As a dretch going for Fiend of Possession, you likely are ambitious. You want to tempt beings into relying on you. You're not a Fiend of Corruption, but your powers let you play a similar game as you grow into them. Giving buffs and penalties to control the behavior of those wielding your items or with whom you ride.

To be party friendly, you want to hide the penalties. Your MO, as a dretch, is to attach yourself to more powerful beings and make them rely on you. Make yourself their favorite minion, tool, or ally, until they can't live without you. You still have cruelty and mischief-making in your nature, but you're smart enough not to excrete where you consume. Save the cruelty and pranks for your enemies and those of your allies. Make friends, be trustworthy where possible, but always be on the lookout for treachery and punish it if possible. But keep the carrot around to make sure they remember that, even if you aren't to be trifled with, you're GREAT to have on their side.

One great thing about your life right now is that you're out of the Abyss, and your primary contact with it is when you deign to summon one of your stupider kin to do your bidding for a while. You're growing in power in a place where you're not a constant whipping boy, if you play your cards right with your party.

Dretches have a very high Hide and a reasonable Move Silently for their ECL, and a GOOD score in both for their CR: they're SNEAKY little twerps. I'd play with that in your personality, especially since your whole MO is to "not be there" in any vulnerable or detectable sense and to make your presence felt by how you aid your allies.


Depending on how the party attracts your attention and is likely to react to a demon, I would hide yourself from them, and possess their tools. Probably somebody's weapon who gets into the front lines, so you are well placed to originate your spell-like abilities or psionic powers. After they notice your help, and start looking around, feign (or exhibit genuine) shyness. Speak to them with mindlink (if you're a Telepath); it's your best bet unless at least one speaks Abyssal, since you can't speak and your racial telepathy only works on beings that speak Abyssal.

Stay hidden. Beg them for protection; invent a threat from which you're hiding that they could easily avoid or take down. Offer your services. Refuse to be seen for a while, and build up some element of mystery. Be their scout - not only are you often ethereal when you're not in an object, but you also can stealth very well even for a 6th level character just from your skills and size alone. Eventually, you can reveal yourself. Make it a dramatic moment of trust. If they're not the sort to think, "demons are cool/acceptable," beg them not to hate you for it. Play up how much you value their friendship, and claim to be "different," if needs be. By this point, they hopefully like you as much as they can given what they know, and also hopefully appreciate your aid. Hopefully, this will let them accept what you are.

If not...lie. Hide. Don't let them know. Show them yourself only as a helpful invisible ally.

I suppose you could also always be "less evil" than most demons. But that's a bit clichéd, so I'd only do it if it is necessary to fit in without disrupting the party.


In any event, your motives for joining them in general are, as outlined, a chance to grow in power away from the Abyss and its overlords, and maybe to gain influence through those who make rely upon you. You're sneaky and unusually smart, so you learn by observation. Collect secrets, collect facts, collect knowledge and connections. Use these to make yourself more useful and to build up possible places to take your possession gig if good ones arise.

Why THIS particular party? Could be luck, but if you can come up with specific reasons why they fit your needs (or tailor your personality and designs towards their proclivities and goals), that will make a stronger story and, hopefully, allow you to build stronger bonds with the other PCs.

[jangartharn1]

I have watched my brother play Abathur a bit, but I have not played him, myself, nor have I played the Heart of the Swarm campaign to learn his personality from that. So any suggestions I give will be based on the FoP class and the dretch-as-a-demon, combined a bit with some design towards being party-compatible.

Speaking of which, can you tell us a bit about your party? The other PCs, their personalities and goals, etc.? That will help develop the dretch Fiend of Possession goals and personality to align and make him compatible.


Dretches are one step above the lowest of the low in the demonic hierarchy. This isn't anything formal (they're Chaotic, after all), but they're the second-weakest kind of demon and they're rather stupid to boot (half as smart as an average human, and not even 2/3 as smart as an average orc). They, like all demons, are literally made of capricious cruelty. That's what the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes mean: your physical form has those traits as literal components to your being.

That doesn't mean they can't play well with others, though! Especially if you're an unusually intelligent Dretch (how do you generate stats in your campaign?).

Your character has taken a MOST unusual path for a dretch. A path of class-based self-improvement, moving into out-and-out possession techniques. If you go with Psion or Lurk as your base class (which you're only taking 1 level of for now, but which will be important later! I recommend Psion over Lurk just because it will serve you better at higher level, when you're throwing powers around from inside objects and people. Lurk will require you to be out in your own form or actively controlling your possessed victim to use a lot of its abilities, which doesn't sound like what you want to be doing.)

An Int-based class (Psion or Lurk) will call for you to really push your Int high, to overcome that racial -4 penalty. You could go for something based on Cha (e.g. Wilder), which'd be easier, but...well, I am biased towards the int-based builds, so that will show here.

If you are an unusually intelligent Dretch (Int 12+, and for a Psion you really WANT a 14 for starters...which takes an 18 "rolled" or "bought"), then you will be able to have unusually well-thought-out goals and plans. Rather than petty cruelties just to snicker at, you can plan for allies and refrain from doing things to antagonize them on the basis that they're useful for greater things.

As a dretch going for Fiend of Possession, you likely are ambitious. You want to tempt beings into relying on you. You're not a Fiend of Corruption, but your powers let you play a similar game as you grow into them. Giving buffs and penalties to control the behavior of those wielding your items or with whom you ride.

To be party friendly, you want to hide the penalties. Your MO, as a dretch, is to attach yourself to more powerful beings and make them rely on you. Make yourself their favorite minion, tool, or ally, until they can't live without you. You still have cruelty and mischief-making in your nature, but you're smart enough not to excrete where you consume. Save the cruelty and pranks for your enemies and those of your allies. Make friends, be trustworthy where possible, but always be on the lookout for treachery and punish it if possible. But keep the carrot around to make sure they remember that, even if you aren't to be trifled with, you're GREAT to have on their side.

One great thing about your life right now is that you're out of the Abyss, and your primary contact with it is when you deign to summon one of your stupider kin to do your bidding for a while. You're growing in power in a place where you're not a constant whipping boy, if you play your cards right with your party.

Dretches have a very high Hide and a reasonable Move Silently for their ECL, and a GOOD score in both for their CR: they're SNEAKY little twerps. I'd play with that in your personality, especially since your whole MO is to "not be there" in any vulnerable or detectable sense and to make your presence felt by how you aid your allies.


Depending on how the party attracts your attention and is likely to react to a demon, I would hide yourself from them, and possess their tools. Probably somebody's weapon who gets into the front lines, so you are well placed to originate your spell-like abilities or psionic powers. After they notice your help, and start looking around, feign (or exhibit genuine) shyness. Speak to them with mindlink (if you're a Telepath); it's your best bet unless at least one speaks Abyssal, since you can't speak and your racial telepathy only works on beings that speak Abyssal.

Stay hidden. Beg them for protection; invent a threat from which you're hiding that they could easily avoid or take down. Offer your services. Refuse to be seen for a while, and build up some element of mystery. Be their scout - not only are you often ethereal when you're not in an object, but you also can stealth very well even for a 6th level character just from your skills and size alone. Eventually, you can reveal yourself. Make it a dramatic moment of trust. If they're not the sort to think, "demons are cool/acceptable," beg them not to hate you for it. Play up how much you value their friendship, and claim to be "different," if needs be. By this point, they hopefully like you as much as they can given what they know, and also hopefully appreciate your aid. Hopefully, this will let them accept what you are.

If not...lie. Hide. Don't let them know. Show them yourself only as a helpful invisible ally.

I suppose you could also always be "less evil" than most demons. But that's a bit clichéd, so I'd only do it if it is necessary to fit in without disrupting the party.


In any event, your motives for joining them in general are, as outlined, a chance to grow in power away from the Abyss and its overlords, and maybe to gain influence through those who make rely upon you. You're sneaky and unusually smart, so you learn by observation. Collect secrets, collect facts, collect knowledge and connections. Use these to make yourself more useful and to build up possible places to take your possession gig if good ones arise.

Why THIS particular party? Could be luck, but if you can come up with specific reasons why they fit your needs (or tailor your personality and designs towards their proclivities and goals), that will make a stronger story and, hopefully, allow you to build stronger bonds with the other PCs.
Alright I'll go into detail for the party. We have the chaotic evil assassin who is pure evil he butchered a child without a second glance. We have a chaotic neutral spellthief who is a real snob. We also have a chaotic good dervish who is kind of a brute and I don't consider him chaotic good. Then we have a chaotic evil psy-warrior. And last but certainly not least we have a lawful good cleric the one person I worry about in this party. At the moment all the evil peeps are prisoners and the cleric and dervish are their "wardens" pretty much making sure they stay in line as we go on our quest.

[Segev]

Alright I'll go into detail for the party. We have the chaotic evil assassin who is pure evil he butchered a child without a second glance. We have a chaotic neutral spellthief who is a real snob. We also have a chaotic good dervish who is kind of a brute and I don't consider him chaotic good. Then we have a chaotic evil psy-warrior. And last but certainly not least we have a lawful good cleric the one person I worry about in this party. At the moment all the evil peeps are prisoners and the cleric and dervish are their "wardens" pretty much making sure they stay in line as we go on our quest.Yow. I'm amazed this party is holding together. LG and CE are definitely not usually friends, and the CG guy...to hang out willingly with this group, he's treading the line. That said, if he and the LG guy are "wardens," that's one thing. How do they keep the others in line, though?


On the up side, you're a CE Demon, and should fit RIGHT in.

You can approach this from a number of ways. On the up side, your Fiend of Possession class features let you, while hiding in an object, also completely hide your presence, including your alignment. So the LG cleric can't "find" you by detecting evil or the like.

You can approach this as an opportunity to get in good with a bunch of C and E lowlifes who are down on their luck, imprisoned and controlled by those goody-goodies (especially that stick-in-the-mud cleric). Offer your help by possessing one of their items, and giving your buffs (when you have them) and directing your abilities to aid them. If they're up for overpowering the LG cleric and the CG dervish, you can help them do this.

Alternatively, if you don't want to instigate PvP (and I don't recommend it, so this would be more the path I'd go), you could help out the CG or LG character. Give them an edge, and slowly tempt them to "let the assassin smooth the way" or other questionable activities. Offer your power to HELP keep the CE guys in line, and to help keep the warden(s) strong enough to stay on top of it. That's your key to making them start to rely on you to the point that you can try to get...concessions.

If you're willing to really play up the duplicity, take advantage of mindlink and the fact that it can't actually serve as a group-channel; you have to relay anything one person wants to think at another. Have private conversations with people. Get the DM to insist that, if they're trying to use you as a relay, they pass notes to you, and you have to re-write them to pass on, to represent the difficulty of you having to be communications hub.

This gives you opportunity to ... edit. Do so creatively; often, it shouldn't change meaning, just be your own phrasing. Be open about this. If you get a note that is Jim treating it like an open channel, "Bob, take out the guard on the left on my signal," you pass on a note to Bob that says, "Jim says to wait for his signal than knock out the guard on the left." At other times, if you like the phrasing, you can say, "Jim says, and I quote, 'Bob, take out the guard on the left on my signal.'"

That way, if you feel the need to edit more...creatively...you can justify it later as a bad paraphrasing, or you misunderstanding the message.

This ALSO will allow you to make different offers and promises to each of the PCs. Promise your aid in helping the LG and CG guys keep control. Maybe even let slip something you "overhear" (claim to have really good hearing, or to have been using one of their pieces of gear for a better vantage when they said something). Promise the C and E guys your help in planning a betrayal. Talk the CG guy into more morally questionable activities, and maybe try to get him to be sympathetic to the Evil guys' points of view based on arguments with the Lawful aspect of the LG cleric's position(s).

If you're really good at it, you can even try to play "peacemaker," making everybody think you're out not just to help them, but to make peace in the party. If you're a little bad at it, and you just happen to push too hard and drive deeper wedges of distrust (or drive the Good and Lawful party members to compromise on their morals and ethics until they feel the Evil and Chaotic people have a point more often than not), that's not your fault.

Play on any mercy urges the LG guy might have. He's the one on whom you want to play the "pity me for I need protection" card. Let him think you're innocent, or, if he figures out you're a demon, that you can be redeemed. Plead for a chance, for mercy, and point out how helpful you've been, how you're TRYING to not be evil.

Play on whatever aspects of the CG guy's personality makes you question his Goodness. Let him see you as an ally and see the Evil people as...acceptable patsies for his less-than-noble urges. They get their hands dirty, letting him convince himself he's still okay. The CN snob can be manipulated similarly; play up an awe of him and a willingness to do "dirty work" for him (in a more literal, less moral sense, even).

Help the CE guys get away with a few things. And also let the LG guy know about a few of their...deeds...that you don't like or approve of. Do your best to frame the WRONG one for anything you let the LG guy thwart; he'll come off as a bigger authoritarian jerk than he is for punishing the wrong person, and the person who should have been punished can be convinced you helped him dodge the bullet. Commiserate with the wrongfully-accused, and maybe suggest ways you can help him get revenge.

But most importantly, even if you're sowing discord, make sure that it's discord you can manage. Your goal should always be towards making yourself the glue that holds them together, and making yourself indispensable. And, if you can corrupt the L and G guys so they're more pragmatically aligned, work more towards unity in general. Again, unity based on how useful and friendly YOU are.

Why, if the LG guy lets himself slip and loses his divine powers, you may just happen to know a demon lord or few who could grant him some to make up for it... Don't offer it right away. Don't even be eager to suggest it. But when he feels the pinch, humbly and "uncomfortably" mention that all the powers to which you have connections are of a darker sort than he'd like. Lament that you can't help him. But let it be known that you have a cleric on the hook in the Abyss, and take bidders for somebody who'll offer a "first taste is free" set of spells for a day. Just in case he turns to you and, in desperation, asks for a "one time" aid. When need gets dire enough.



In short, you've got a party full of people who would have similar alignment and proclivities to you, and a couple of outliers who are in charge. This is a perfect place for a Fiend of Possession to cut his teeth by being imminently useful and reaching out to be each one's friend while figuring out how to enable their goals and bring them into alignment with your own goal of amassing power and influence through them.