An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence: A Guide to Fightering

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
A Guide to Fightering

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/58/Triumph_of_Achilles_in_Corfu_Achilleion.jpg/1280px-Triumph_of_Achilles_in_Corfu_Achilleion.jpg
Image by Franz von Matsch

"Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."
- Robert E. Howard, The Phoenix on the Sword

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
- Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic

Barbarians rage. Paladins preach. Rangers range. Monks… keep sitting cross-legged at the tops of mountains for some reason. And you?

You’re going to paint your name into the history books with the blood of your enemies.

Welcome to being a Fighter. Others dabble in war. You master it. You have embraced it in a way no one else can. It is part of you. It is your art.

The Fighter is one of the oldest classes in D&D, appearing in the very first version of OD&D, and it’s been tanking along ever since. From the beginning, it’s specialized in two things: dealing damage and taking punishment, and boy can he do both now.

Color Scheme

This is freaking amazing! It provides many options, or will do one thing extremely well.
This is really good, but not quite phenomenal.
This is good. It will regularly be useful, though it won't provide many tactical choices.
Bad. It will be extremely rare that it's useful at all.


Occasionally very useful, but limited in scope or applicability.

Table of Contents:

Know Thyself
Fantastic Fighters
Ways of the Blade
You Have the Power
Fine Tuning

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
Know Thyself

http://www.wallpapername.com/thumbnails/detail/20121112/fantasy%20art%20digital%20art%20sakimichan%201500x 2000%20wallpaper_www.wallpapername.com_96.jpg
Image by Sakimichan on deviantart

Let's look at the basics of the Fighter package.

Ability Scores
Strength: If this isn’t your primary, DEX is. It can also improve your Athletics and help you Grapple.
Dexterity: DEX gives you a common save, some skills, and your AC in Medium Armor. It can also be your primary stat.
Constitution: Hit Points are good. It’s also a great save.
Intelligence: A good dump stat unless you’re an Eldritch Knight, in which case it’s your second most important stat.
Wisdom: Good for saves and skill checks.
Charisma: Also good for skill checks, and might be useful for a Battle Master.


Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d10 per level. Only Barbarians have it better, and they swing an axe like an amateur.
Armor Proficiency: You are proficient with all armor and shields. Go nuts.
Weapon Proficiency: You are the martial master. At no point should you have fewer than four sidearms with the Thrown property, unless they’re all embedded in your enemies. You should have a weapon for all occasions and be willing to use it.
Saving Throws: STR is the second most rare. There aren’t really better saves than CON if you’re a caster. If you’re not, it’s still good.
Skills/Tools: You have no Tool proficiencies, but you get some skills.
Acrobatics: Will get you around obstacles.
Animal Handling: Nearly necessary with a mount: but otherwise will rarely come into play.
Athletics: Needed for Grappling and getting around obstacles
Suvival: Will get you through some situations, but it's not necessary outside of wilderness campaigns.
Insight: A solid conversational tool.
Intimidation: Interrogations are a classic RPG trope.
Perception: Can actually save your party.
Fighting Styles:
Archery is fantastic, especially for ranged Battle Masters.
Defense is great for tanks, and you can be a great tank.
Dueling is good for a sword-and-boarder who wants decent damge, plus it can leave a hand free for casting.
Great Weapon Fighting is obviously for those who want to wield bigger weapons, and the damage boost it provides means you'll be dealing more damage, more consistently than everyone else.
Protection is another sword-and-board ability, but you won't always be able to utilize it.
Two Weapon Fighting is much better than early impressions suggested. The more difficult a creature is to hit, the more useful Two Weapon Fighting is. With Dual Wielder, it's even better.
Mariner is a new one from the UA Waterborne. It's not particularly strong, but the +1 AC and side options are nice if you're lightly armored.
Close Quarters Shooter is a new one from the Underdark UA. It mixes a +1 to ranged attacks with a bucket of benefits for fighting in close quarters with a ranged weapon. It's pretty nice.
Tunnel Fighter is the other Underdark style, and it's quite nice for defending an area. It's a bit of an offensive defense.
Second Wind: Recover Hit Points as a bonus action. A perfectly good ability, but the HPs start out great and end up mediocre. In lower levels it makes you a tanking god. In higher levels it will keep you from spending your hit dice too quickly.
Action Surge: This is the perfect nova ability. Or "put together a sweet combo" ability. Having two turns in one turn is awesome.
Ability Score Improvement: Obviously good for obvious reasons. You get so many ASIs, it’s absolutely ridiculous. Pump up all the stats you want, and grab a couple feats to boot.
Extra Attack: This is one of the principal features that make you the most capable damage dealer in the game.
Indomitable: Rerolling saves? Even saves you had advantage on? Multiple times? Awesome.


Unearthed Arcana Fighting Styles
The "Light, Dark, Underdark" article in WotC's Unearthed Arcana series provides us with two broken fighting styles that I would personally never allow in my game. If you can convince your DM to let you play them, then go ahead and take one. Archers should look at Close Quarters Shooter, which provides two features from two different feats, plus a +1 to ranged attacks. That's pretty broken, but Tunnel Fighter lets you use your op attack as in older editions, not using your reaction. This is a major force multiplier when locking down enemies.

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
Fantastic Fighters

http://i.imgur.com/TWlPASC.jpg
Image by Sandara on deviantart

Pretty much every race option has something that a Fighter can use. However, some provide a little something extra.

It should be noted that any time I call out the Eldritch Knight, that option is rated only for the Eldritch Knight, excepting the Minotaur.

NOTE: If you want to use a particular race, do so. Optimization doesn’t help as much in 5e as it does in others, and all the races offer you something fun.

Player's Handbook
Hill Dwarf: Fighting is a perfectly respectable calling for a Hill Dwarf, though your mother wishes you had gone into the clergy.
Mountain Dwarf: +2 STR and CON? And you’re still a Dwarf? Yeah, this is fantastic.
High Elf: High Elves are a chief exporter of DEX-based Eldritch Knights.
Wood Elf: Wisdom is a very nice stat, but it’s not a secondary for any Fighters. Still, a great choice for a DEX Fighter.
Drow: Perfectly good at Fightering until they walk into direct sunlight. Try to avoid that.
Lightfoot Halfling: +2 DEX is good, and the Halfling features are awesome, but the Lightfoot stuff won’t do much for you.
Stout Halfling: Take the Halfling and make him just a tad Dwarfy, and you get an excellent DEX Fighter.
Human: +1 to every attribute is solid.
Variant Human: Do you really need another feat?
Dragonborn: That STR bonus is nice, and the breath attack is a sweet little AoE when you’re starting out.
Forest Gnome: A fantastic Eldritch Knight. Not a great anything else.
Rock Gnome: Okay for the EK, all else say Nay.
Half-Elf: You can add one to a primary and secondary, but that +2 CHA isn’t a big deal for you.
Half-Orc: Hit harder, tank longer. That’s the Half-Orc brand.
Tiefling: Not really Fighter material. Okay for an Eldritch Knight, I guess.


Ask your DM before using any splat material below, especially if it’s outside the SCAG or EE.

Dungeon Master's Guide
Eladrin: Eldritch Knights can have fun here.


Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
Duergar: They are absolutely great, providing you with excellent spells, perfect stat boosts, and the basic Dwarf package. Of course, if you happen to be in Sunlight they’re miserable.
Deep Gnome: A DEX Eldritch Knight if there ever was one. Primary, secondary, and amazing Gnome shenanigans, including a feat in case you have the ASI to spend on it (hint: you do).
Ghostwise Halfling: Like other Halflings, it's a decent Fighter.
Feral Tiefling: Now we have the makings of a decent Eldritch Knight. Other Tiefling alternatives are of varying, but minor levels of effectiveness, save winged, which is not allowed in Adventurer’s League play.

Volo's Guide to Monsters
Aasimar: The ability scores aren't terribly helpful, for the most part. The everything else is very helpful, though.
Firbolg: The STR is nice, but the invisibility is why you choose a Firbolg.
Goliath: Certain races are made to be Fighters. Strangely enough, the race named after a gigantic mythical warrior is one of them. Everything it has contributes to Fightering.
Kenku: It's perfectly good for a DEX Fighter who wants some utility.
Lizardfolk: The stats are nothing special, but the Bite, the Natural Armor, and the bonus action attack are great. I wouldn't even worry about needing to spend an ASI on your STR.
Tabaxi: Claws, mobility, and DEX. Quite nice.
Triton: Tritons make decent Fighters thanks to their ability spread and resistance, and they boost the casting of an Eldritch Knight.

Volo's Monstrous Races
Bugbear: You usually use either DEX or STR, but it's still nice to have both. The reach and the bonus damage are awesome, though.
Goblin: Goblins apparently make excellent archer Fighters.
Hobgoblin: Saving Face is the Saving Grace of the Hobgoblin Fighter. Getting that extra hit in a clutch round is pretty nice.
Kobold: Kobold archers are very nice. Pack Tactics even wipes out Sunlight Sensitivity.
Orc: They're very good at hitting things with other things, and this is the wheelhouse of the Fighter. Aggressive is quite nice, but not all that nice.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood: Nothing about this improves Fightering, but the poison immunity and adv. on saves are nice.


Elemental Evil
Aarakocra: Flight and DEX make this great for an archer build, though other builds may find it lacking.
Genasi: The Genasi all have CON, which is nice. You’ll pick them for their other abilities though.
Air Genasi: Did you want a flying archer? Good.
Earth Genasi: Oh, two primary stats and okay buffs. Nice.
Fire Genasi: If you’re an Eldritch Knight, this looks pretty damn good to me. You get both secondaries, a 1/day spell, Darkvision, and resistance on top? Nice.
Water Genasi: The resistance and CON are nice, and a little WIS never hurts.


Plane Shift Zendikar
Holy crap, it's a Magic/D&D crossover. A lot of the races in this supplement don't fit the races in traditional D&D settings that well, so be sure to talk to your DM before utilizing them.

Human: About what you'd expect.
Kor: Ghostwise Halfling drops psychic shenanigans for a climb speed.
Merfolk: You know what's not great for Fighters? Casting stat boosts across the boards.
Vampire: The stats aren't what you're looking for, but healing yourself and damaging your enemies with a grapple seems nice to me.
Goblin: A boost to Constitution and two resistances is going to be nice for any class.
Elf: Tajura get very little that's helpful. Juraga get a DEX boost and Mul Daya get a STR boost, and both have solid secondary features.


Unearthed Arcana are basically official homebrews. Ask your DM before using them.

Eberron

Changeling: Not particularly good.
Shifters: A Shifter can make an okay DEX build. Shifting is a decent trait by itself.

Beasthide Shifter: The AC and CON work well with the Shifter package.
Cliffwalk Shifter: Pure DEX with a movement buff and the Shifter package.
Longstride Shifter: Exactly the same as the goat dude above.
Longtooth Shifter: Having both STR and DEX is sub-optimal, but the attack-grapple is okay.
Razorclaw Shifter: Paired with Dueling, this guy can outpace Great Weapon damage.
Wildhunt Shifter: The Shifter package is still good, but theis doesn’t add much.
Warforged: Living weapons tend to make good living weapons.

Waterborne
Minotaur: They can make a decent Fighter for any archetype, but also make solid Eldritch Knights.

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
Ways of the Blade

http://i.imgur.com/VDaqmwu.jpg
Image by Yoshi taka Amano, whose name keeps getting filtered out

The different path you take defines your tactics both in an out of battle. Will you be a powerhouse who makes use of his incredible physical prowess? A masterful tactician who controls the field of battle? Or a mystical warrior equally skilled with blade and spell? Perhaps you could be a leader of men, a warrior who’s skill will bring others through to the end? All are valid paths for a Fighter.

Champion
The Champion is a physical powerhouse whose simplicity makes it perfect for newer players.
Improved Critical: This is your major damage dealing feature. Doubling your ability to crit is an excellent ability.
Remarkable Athlete: A more limited version of Jack of All Trades. It can come in handy. It's worth noting that some spell effects will require these ability checks to escape them, and it works on Initiative.
Extra Fighting Style: A chance to nab a defensive style if you picked an offensive one first, or an offensive style if you went defensive first.
Superior Critical: A 50% boost to your already prodigious critical chances. It’s not as big a boost to your damage as the first one was, but it’s still quite nice.
Survivor: Regeneration when you’re under half HP? Well, that seems pretty nice to me.


Battle Master
Some have called it Warlord Lite, but the Battle Master provides excellent control mixed with solid damage. A potent mix.
Combat Superiority: Your primary feature is extremely nice. Up your damage, your battlefield control, or your defense, and replenish it on a Short Rest.
Student of War: You proficiency with some out of combat tools. Make a potion or silver your blades.
Know Your Enemy: You can occasionally discover which stats you should target, but you need time to do it.
Improved Combat Superiority: Increasing damage is quite nice.
Relentless: Never run out of Superiority Dice


Eldritch Knight
The Eldritch Knight is exactly what you want out of a gish: lots of slashing and lots of casting. The magic is primarily designed to keep you safe while you cut everyone else to ribbons.
Spellcasting: Quite limited casting, but you get exactly what you need to gish your little heart out, including weapon cantrips and defensive boosts.
Weapon Bond: A fluffy little feature that makes it extremely difficult to disarm you.
War Magic: Cast & Slash exactly as a gish should. Works extremely well with the Sword Coast cantrips. Lightning Lure something closer to you, then slash it. Hit something with Booming Blade, then slash it. Shock it with Shocking Grasp, then slash it. Minor Illusion a floating middle finger at it, then slash it. The world is your oyster.
Eldritch Strike: A very nice feature to use with Action Surge, and it makes save-or-sucks much more appealing.
Arcane Charge: A short-range teleport is perfectly good in a melee.
Improved War Magic: Cast a spell and attack in the same turn. It’s a great ability.


Banneret aka, Purple Dragon Knight (SCAG)
The Banneret is another Warlord Lite straight out of the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, but this one is more explicitly designed to buff and protect his allies. A Banneret may be weaker than the other options on its own, but it provides a massive boost to the combat capabilities of the entire group.
As always, ask your DM before using material from splats.
Rallying Cry: A perfectly nice little boost to HP at no cost to you if you were already going to Second Wind.
Royal Envoy: A solid boost to a solid skill. Useful, but not a major boost.
Inspiring Surge: Increase the potency of your surge. It’s pretty damn nice.
Bulwark: This is pretty nice. Allowing allies to make use of your Indomitable feature when you use it essentially doubles its potency.


Arcane Archer (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
You can cast minor spells by hitting people with arrows, which is pretty dang fun. The spells you get aren't terribly powerful, but they are short-rest abilities, and you're still hitting things with arrows.
Arcane Archer Lore: A knowledge skill and a basic cantrip. It's situational as hell, but not useless.
Arcane Shot: See the complete breakdown in the spells section. Overall, it's a mixed bag. You don't get enough uses out of it to rely on it regularly, but most of the abilities are pretty solid.
Magic Arrow: Like Hamilton, it gets the job done (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shSFLHZzWic). Only really useful when you're facing a nasty without a magic weapon.
Curving Shot: A second chance is exceptionally nice, even if it takes a bonus action.
Ever-Ready Shot: Never starting a combat without being able to use your basic abilities sounds great to me.


Cavalier (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
Far from depending on a mount, you make an extremely competent Fighter with something of a 4e Defender vibe to you.
Bonus Proficiencies: Useful situational abilities! Woo!
Born to Saddle: If you're frequently fighting from a mount, this would work very well.
Unwavering Mark: Guys, we've got a 4e defender! Woo! Only thing holding it back is the long rest.
Warding Maneuver: Your second long-rest feature. Interesting. It's a solid parry.
Hold the Line: I like that operating by 4e movement rules is potent enough in 5e to warrant separate features.
Ferocious Charger: This is just delightful. I love it. Combos well with the Mobile feat.
Vigilant Defender: This is a fine feature. Op attacks that don't eat your reaction is nice.


Samurai (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
If you want to slaughter your enemies whilst hobnobbing at court, then this is a great archetype for you. Its later features just feed into your core ability, so it ends up being pretty damn impressive.
Bonus Proficiencies: As you might expect, this is totally situational, but entirely useful.
Fighting Spirit: Using a bonus action to get both offensive and defensive bonuses sounds great to me.
Elegant Courtier: You get the benefit of a half-feat, and you get a situational bonus on top. I like it!
Tireless Spirit: Yesss. Spirits are exactly what you want!
Rapid Strike: This is a straight buff to your attacks every turn you have advantage.
Strength before Death: Half-Orcs start with something like this, but there's something to be said for not falling unconscious.


Scout (Unearthed Arcana: Kits of Old)
Do you want to be a Ranger without being a Ranger? A lot of people seem to, and this makes a very nice non-magical alternative to the Ranger class. Once again, this relies on Battle Master-esque Maneuvers to increase the combat effectiveness of the archetype, but does not include the flexibility of the Battle Master. Still, it's somewhat more flexible than the Cavalier, though it lacks the damaging potential of both the Battle Master and Cavalier. Honestly, it's only black because the basic Fighter Chassis is so powerful. It's simply a good deal of utility on top of that.
Once more, ask your DM before using splat.
Bonus Proficiencies: Wow. Those are excellent proficiencies. No other Fighter gets anything close to these extra options, and you get to pick three of them. The only better utility option is the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting.
Combat Superiority: You only get three Maneuvers, and none of them add damage. Martial Adept is necessary to improve your versatility.
Natural Explorer: A little situational bonus that's very flavorful. Helps cement this as the not-Ranger Ranger.
Improved Combat Superiority: Nice, though it's hampered by your options.
Relentless: Again, nice to have, but hampered by your options.

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
You Have the Power
aka: Least Controversial Section

http://i.imgur.com/RKmM1HR.jpg
Image by Jason Chan

Still under development.

Maneuvers
Battle Master only

A Note on Selecting Maneuvers
When selecting maneuvers, it is important to consider two things: your primary means of attacking, and how you fit into your party. An archer, for example, does not benefit from Tripping Attack to the same degree as a melee Fighter because you are at Disadvantage when attacking a Prone enemy. Likewise, disarming an enemy without being able to toss their weapon away does nothing. However, an archer who knows that her allies will have turns before her enemies can use Tripping Attack and Disarming Attack with abandon to provide her allies with advantages.

So ask yourself, will making an enemy prone help my allies? If I disarm an enemy, will I be able to help my allies? Will my allies benefit more from buffs on them than from debuffs on the enemy? Will one of my feats (Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter) affect the usefulness of a Maneuver (Precision Attack)? An archer Battle Master can stand away from the fight inflicting negative statuses on enemies with ease. A melee Battle Master can wade into battle, concentrating his attacks on one or two enemies instead. Plan your Maneuvers to match your style.

Commander’s Strike: You use your bonus action and lose an attack. Nothing is gained, unless an ally has a much better attack than you, and even that uses the die without knowing if it will inflict the damage. The only saving grace is that it’s almost always going to be useable if you do have an ally whose attack is more damaging than yours. If you work with a Paladin, Rogue, or Barbarian, it can be great.
Disarming Attack: Remember that you can interact with one object for free each turn, and that can include kicking the Death Knight’s sword across the room. The damage is just gravy. The only thing keeping it from being sky-blue is the fact that so many enemies don’t carry weapons.
Distracting Strike: You should only use this if you completely lack confidence in the Tripping Attack save, or if the target’s turn is directly after yours.
Evasive Footwork: Avoid op attacks. Reducing the damage you take is always nice.
Feinting Attack: Set yourself up for a furious assault. I like it, even if the damage is uncertain. Pairs well with Tripping Attack.
Goading Attack: Almost like a 4e Mark. Not bad at all.
Lunging Attack: In any situation in which you need this, you can draw a hand axe and use that instead. Using a die without knowing if it will damage its target just makes this worst.
Maneuvering Attack: Extra damage is always welcome, and you can get an ally out of a jam. Perfectly nice.
Menacing Attack: Disadvantage is nice, and if you have reach or hit with a ranged attack you can completely shut down an enemy’s ability to attack you.
Parry: A nice DEX reaction. Excellent for archers, and still quite nice for finesse Fighters.
Precision Attack: You can decide to pop this Super die after you make the attack roll, which is exactly what you want with that.
Pushing Attack: Add extra damage and okay control. A solid pick if you find yourself fighting near ledges frequently.
Rally: A good reason to grab Charisma. Temp HP is great at low levels, but it doesn’t scale terribly well. Still, les damage taken is always nice.
Riposte: You spend the die even if it misses, which is lame. But it gives you a very damaging reaction, which is nice. It's better if you multiclass Rogue.
Sweeping Attack: It’s a nonmagical Green Flame Blade! That scales worse than Green Flame Blade! And uses a resource! It could be useful in a fight against a large group of weak enemies, and rarely otherwise.
Trip Attack: Knock a target prone, giving you advantage for all your other attacks while you deal extra damage for this one. Even limited to Large and smaller creatures, this is awesome.


Arcane Shot
Arcane Archer only



Banishing Arrow: Knocking the right enemy out of combat for a round is a fantastic tactic.
Beguiling Arrow: Extra damage is good. I don't know how good the charmed business will be. It could certainly help end a combat via Intimidate rolls.
Bursting Arrow: A short-rest Hail of Thorns. I think it's damn fun. Maybe less fun later
Enfeebling Arrow: Halving damage is fun, but the big heavy hitters will frequently have solid CON.
Grasping Arrow: Extremely damaging and debilitating over time.
Piercing Arrow: An okay line effect.
Seeking Arrow: This can absolutely ruin a DM's plans. It's not always going to be useful, but it can wreck a mystery or a hidden creature.
Shadow Arrow: Blinding an enemy to, say, the Rogue is a great idea.



Spells
Eldritch Knight only

Notes on Spell Selection
Remember that Eldritch Knights only receive one first level spell that is neither an abjuration, nor an evocation. All other spells, cantrips aside, must come from one of those two schools. This should absolutely inform the way you pick spells. All non-AE spells of first level or higher will be marked with an asterisk.

Generally, because your cantrips are so limited, you should be very careful with what you pick. You only have two at first, and you only get one more over time. This means that unless you have other means of acquiring cantrips, you should stick to the most useful and widely applicable ones you can get. Remember that you already have excellent attacks, so your spells should focus on enabling your ability to shoot and hit things.

It’s also worth noting that your spell progression is, objectively, terrible. At max level, you have the spell slots of a seventh level Wizard, with fewer spells known. Therefore, with some exceptions, it is important to select spells that provide you with something other than single target damage. Your attacks already accomplish that, what you need are spells that can be useful at any level, which is why it’s lucky that you can pick abjurations. You might want damaging cantrips and first level spells, but the potency of damage-dealing spells is reduced at subsequent spell levels, and you might want to switch some of those spells out at higher levels.

Finally, note that while the Adventurer’s League does allow the Elemental Evil (EE), The Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide (SCAG), and Xanathar's Guide to Everything (XGtE), you are limited to either one or the other when building a character. That is to say, you may use either EE or SCAG, but not both. Generally, ask your DM before using either.

Acid Splash: I personally don’t like saves for cantrip attacks. It’s almost like an AoE, but the damage is weak. Weaker than simply attacking, that’s for sure. It’s good for avoiding Sunlight Sensitivity, though.
Blade Ward: If this were a bonus action to cast, it would be fine, but it isn’t. It’s okay after you pick up War Magic because you can take a defensive action and still get an attack in, but that’s it.
Booming Blade (SCAG): An excellent gish cantrip. Combos well with Witch Bolt on the Action Surge. Works well with War Magic.
Chill Touch: A perfectly decent ranged attack. Worse than a normal Fighter’s ranged option, but still usable if you don’t feel like carrying a javelin.
Control Flame (EE/XGtE): A perfectly good utility spell whose uses are hampered by the limited number of cantrips you can learn.
Create Bonfire (EE/XGtE): A save cantrip that uses Concentration. It’s a bit like a weaker Cloud of Daggers. Again, avoid Sunlight Sensitivity.
Dancing Lights: The only reason to use this over Light is because you’re a Drow.
Firebolt: A good damaging cantrip for when you need range, but weapons often provide better options.
Friends: It’s some good utility, but its drawback can be nasty. Pairs well with Disguise Self for shenaniganery.
Frostbite: A save cantrip (boo) with a nice rider (yay!). This might be the cantrip of choice for avoiding Sunlight Sensitivity.
Green-Flame Blade (SCAG): Another great Gish spell.
Gust (EE/XGtE): Totally situational. Too situational for someone with so few cantrips to pick from.
Infestation (XGtE): I would rather have Gust.
Light: A decent cantrip for anyone lacking Darkvision.
Lighting Lure (SCAG): Don’t let anyone out of your reach. Combos well with War Magic.
Mage Hand: Versatile utility, but it’s in a competitive slot.
Mending: To situational to take up half your cantrips for half your levels.
Message: Situational, but it can keep you in contact when you’re scouting.
Minor Illusion: One of those utility cantrips that are so versatile you can hardly justify not taking it.
Mold Earth: Situational, but potentially very useful, especially if you have time to prepare a battlefield.
Poison Spray: Save for a d12 damage. The range is terrible, but if you have Sunlight Sensitivity it could be worth it.
Prestidigitation: I love this spell, but you rely so much on cantrips, and you have so few to pick.
Ray of Frost: Perfectly good at range if you don’t have better options.
Shape Water(EE/XGtE): Too situational for a 1/3 caster.
Shocking Grasp: If you’re melee, and you can’t use SCAG, pick this up. The control is solid, and the damage is okay.
Sword Burst (SCAG): A free burst with okay damage is... well, okay. It's perfectly fine, if not terribly fun.
Thunderclap (EE?XGtE): The damage is weak, and it has no rider. Honestly, you’ll almost always be better off just attacking, even if there are more than two enemies around you.
Toll the Dead (XGtE): It can be a useful ranged option when your enemy's AC is proving a problem.
True Strike: Garbage. Even War Magic can’t make this worthwhile.


Absorb Elements (EE/XGtE): It’s a reaction, it reduces damage against you, and it provides a boost to your next attack. Lovely.
Alarm: If you take Ritual Caster, this is fine. Otherwise… not so much.
Burning Hands: This is one of those rare damaging spells that’s totally worth taking. It’s a solid AoE with decent damage, you get it at a level at which it’s still useful, and it’s not overshadowed by your ability to cut everything around you to ribbons.
Catapult (EE/XGtE)*: Not worth taking up your only non-A/E.
Cause Fear (XGtE)*: You can disable an enemy for a turn or two, but it's unlikely to last too long, and it doesn't aid your offense.
Charm Person*: I would only take this with Magic Initiate. Friends does a good enough job mimicking its effects.
Chromatic Orb: Good for bypassing resistances for creatures like Demons, but is it really better than attacking two times with a bow?
Color Spray*: Blind is okay, but it only lasts a round. There are better debuffs to pick from.
Comprehend Languages*: You’ve so few spells to pick, and without Ritual Caster it’s just not worth it.
Detect Magic*: Some Widely applicable utility, but the competition for the non-A/E is fierce.
Disguise Self*: This might be worth taking up that non-A/E slot. It works extremely well with Friends, and it can save your butt in a lot of situations.
Earth Tremor (EE/XGtE): The range is crap, but you’re probably in melee anyways. The damage is crap, but the rider is nice, and Prone never stops being useful to you. It’s a solid spell for a gish.
Expeditious Retreat*: Moving quickly is pretty nice for ranged and melee Knights alike.
False Life*: A 10-20% boost to health is pretty nice, but its usefulness declines in later levels.
Feather Fall*: It’s life-saving every once in a while, and it’s useless aside from that. Remember, you only get one non-A/E.
Find Familiar*: Useful. More useful if you take it through Ritual Caster, but still useful.
Fog Cloud*: It’s a good way to provide yourself some cover for sneaking and avoiding attacks.
Grease*: This might be the only time I ever rate Grease equal to Earth Tremor. Having someone prone at a range is simply less useful for a melee combatant, and when you’re making ranged attacks prone is less than helpful. Still, it’s such a good spell when you have melee allies.
Ice Knife (EE/XGtE)*: I’m fond of this spell. It’s a decent AoE that deals good single target damage to boot. It’s Hail of Thorns with ice, and this is the perfect level to grab a damaging spell. Is it worth your only non-A/E spell, though?
Identify*: A fine spell that you absolutely should not take unless it’s with Ritual Caster.
Illusory Script*: Not worth your only non-A/E.
Jump*: See above.
Longstrider*: Again, see above.
Mage Armor: Your armor is perfectly adequate as it is, but some DEX builds can benefit from this early on.
Magic Missile: You probably don’t need this. Your single-target ranged power primarily comes from your weapons, not your spells. Still, Magic Missile is as reliable as magic can be.
Protection from Evil and Good: You’ll need it very badly sometimes and not need it at all the rest of the time.
Ray of Sickness*: Honestly, ranged cantrips are better most of the time, at least until you get Improved War Magic.
Shield: Who doesn’t want a bonus to AC?
Silent Image*: I’d just stick with Minor Illusion. The boost this provides to it just isn’t worth your only non-A/E.
Sleep*: This is always a good spell. There’s not a single build that can’t benefit from it at lower levels.
Snare (XGtE): The great thing about Large-sized brutes is that they often don't do well when it domes to Intelligence and Dexterity. This makes an excellent ambush technique.
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter*: I love this spell. I’m probably overrating it, but completely disabling someone on a save is great, and the prone just makes it better.
Tenser’s Floating Disc*: With Ritual Caster? Sure. Otherwise? No.
Thunderwave: Okay damage and a bit of forced movement. Not bad.
Unseen Servant*: It’s a very nice spell, but you only get one non-A/E.
Witch Bolt: This is not a very good spell. That said, you can make it work thanks to your CON save and your other abilities. Use this, then Action Surge and attack with Booming Blade, then bonus action attack with War Magic. They’ll take this damage if they don’t move, and they’ll take Booming Blade damage if they do.


Aganazzar’s Scorcher (EE/XGtE): If you think three damage and a line of effect is worth an extra spell level over Burning Hands, go for it.
Alter Self*: Disguise Self, with a couple upgrades. The Natural Weapons could be useful, but at level 7 it's really not that great. Magic Weapon gives you the same benefit, and you get to use a better weapon.
Arcane Lock: Decent utility for safeguarding the home base.
Blindness/Deafness*: The effect just isn't that powerful, and you're giving them a save every round.
Blur*: Oh, look, a spell that benefits you just as much as Blindness would, but doesn't have any saves involved. A necessary choice if you don't want to pump Int.
Cloud of Daggers*: I don't think blocking an entryway is worth your 8th level non-A/E.
Continual Flame: Have you ever wanted a 50 GP Light spell? Neither have I.
Crown of Madness*: This spell has fatal flaws, and it doesn't help that you'd be passing up on awesome spells to pick it up
Darkness: A good way to avoid getting cut to ribbons or balance out your own disadvantage.
Darkvision*: Not a terrible spell, but many races already have Darkvision, and many that don't shouldn't waste a spell slot on it.
Detect Thoughts*: Solid information gathering utility.
Dragon's Breath (XGtE)*: Its saving grace lies in its repeatability. If you're getting rushed by a lot of enemies, or if you're dealing with something that has an elemental weakness you can exploit, then this could be worthwhile. If you're not facing many large groups of enemies at this point, I would skip.
Dust Devil (EE/XGtE)*: It provides okay control, but it's not necessarily useful enough to justify giving up one of your four non-A/Es.
Earthbind (EE/XGtE)*: If you're dealing with flying enemies, bringing one of them to the ground could be useful. Otherwise, it's pretty useless, and an Eldritch Knight really needs to pick more consistently useful spells.
Enlarge/Reduce*: It provides solid utility and an excellent buff/debuff in one spell.
Flaming Sphere*: Solid control, and you can deal damage as a bonus action.
Gentle Repose*: You will rarely need this, and you'd be giving up a non-A/E to get it.
Gust of Wind: Provides some okay control and utility.
Hold Person*: Paralyzing someone is an excellent debuff, and once you get Eldritch Strike you can really increase your odds of pulling it off.
Invisibility*: Very nice both in and out of combat
Knock*: You either have good Strength or good Dexterity, so you can get through a door without this.
Levitate*: Great for archers.
Locate Object*: Possibly helpful once or twice, but not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a better spell.
Magic Mouth*: As above.
Magic Weapon*: If you don't have a magic weapon yet, this spell could be useful.
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (EE/XGtE)*: The control is really inferior to Hold Person, and it's the same opportunity cost, and the damage you can deal with it is strictly inferior to the damage you inflict with a stick at this level.
Melf’s Acid Arrow: Spend a second level slot to attack for an average of 15 damage, or attack twice with a crossbow for around 17 points of damage.
Mind Spike (XGtE)*: If you're facing an enemy that likes turning invisible (which sucks for a Fighter), then this could be worthwhile.
Mirror Image*: On par with Blur as a defensive buff, but it doesn't use Concentration.
Misty Step*: I like teleports, especially for melee fighters.
Nystul's Magic Aura*: It does nothing for a Fighter.
Phantasmal Force*: The damage is terrible, but it's a solid distraction, especially for a ranged Fighter, and it has all the benefits of any illusion.
Pyrotechnics (EE/XGtE)*: Provides a decent debuff, and ranged Fighters will probably benefit a lot more from it.
Ray of Enfeeblement*: Pretty good debuff, but your enemy gets a save every turn.
Rope Trick*: Good if you really need a Short Rest. Or if you need to hide. There's not much else to it. Maybe leave it for the Wizard.
Scorching Ray:This can actually provide some solid single target damage.
See Invisibility*: It's a massive opportunity cost for a very minor benefit.
Shadow Blade (XGtE)*: If you still don't have a magic item, then this is a damn fine use of a non-A/E spell choice. Otherwise, it's probably not the best use of your Concentration.
Shatter: Like Aganazzar, but with a bit of a rider. Shattering objects might be more useful than the damage.
Skywrite (EE/XGtE)*: Pretty weak for the opportunity cost.
Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm (EE/XGtE): The damage isn't even barely over Burning Hands'. Not worth the spell slot.
Spider Climb*: It's an fun little spell, but not necessarily worth taking.
Suggestion*: I love this spell, but I don't know if this is a good pick for a Fighter.
Warding Wind (XGtE): It's not a terrible way to make yourself sticky and protect yourself from ranged attacks.
Web*: Trap you enemies, then shot and/or cut them to ribbons. Solid spell.


Animate Dead*: You probably should have gone with an Oathbreaker if you wanted to be a necromancer with a sword. You won't get to use this spell to its fullest by a long shot.
Bestow Curse*: It's a damn good thing you have Eldritch Strike, because this is a fantastic spell, and you want it to stick. Especially since it gives you the freedom to come up with your own effects at DM's approval.
Blink*: A lovely little teleport and defensive boost with a chance of doing nothing. Still, multiple teleports for one slot is worth it for a melee Fighter.
Catnap (XGtE): If your DM is refusing to allow you short rests, then take it and flip him off a lot. Otherwise, no.
Clairvoyance*: Do you want to waste a non-A/E on this? It's fine for a Wizard, but you aren't a Wizard.
Counterspell: The best way to counter a caster.
Dispel Magic: Abother good way to eliminate magical effects.
Enemies Abound (XGtE)*: It doesn't really make you a better Fighter, but it provides some excellent control by turning a single nasty against his buddies. And it's an INT save!
Erupting Earth (EE/XGtE)*: Weaker than Fireball, but the difficult terrain over a large area might make this worth it. It could certainly keep a group of people from reaching an archer.
Fear*: Some truly excellent control over an area that can benefit from your Eldritch Strike.
Feign Death*: Useful once in a blue moon, but the opportunity cost to an Eldritch Knight is massive.
Fireball: This was an excellent spell when the Sorcerer took it eight levels ago. For you, it won't deal as much as your attacks deal, but it can deal the damage to more people.
Flame Arrows (EE/XGtE)*: Worse than Hunter's Mark, but an archer could still make decent use of this to up his damage. Cast it before combat, and you can deal more damage than a Fireball with it.
Fly*: This is a great spell that can benefit anyone. Archers love it.
Gaseous Form*: A situationally useful spell. It provides limited flight as well as helping with stealth.
Glyph of Warding: On the one hand, shenanigans. On the other, one hour casting time makes it very situational.
Haste*: As close to mandatory as a spell can be. Every Fighter benefits from more attacks.
Hypnotic Pattern*: Massive turn denial with enough range to be useful to both melee and ranged Fighters. I like it.
Leomund’s Tiny Hut: Perfectly good spell that allows you the chance to take a Short Rest uninterrupted. As a Fighter, you love Short Rests.
Life Transference (XGtE)*: On the one hand, you usually start out with a lot more hit points than your buddies. On the other hand, you're the one who's always getting stabbed, so maybe don't take this?
Lightning Bolt: Like Fireball, your attacks are better, but this can still be useful.
Magic Circle: Definitely only useful when you're dealing with extraplanar baddies, but it can be very useful indeed.
Major Image*: An illusion. A big illusion. A big illusion that includes multiple sensory outputs. It's nice, but not necessarily important for Fighters. Still, illusions are infinitely applicable.
Melf’s Minute Meteors (EE/XGtE): You can full-attack while casting damaging spells all around you. 2d6 on a bonus action isn't terrible. It's not good, but it isn't terrible. Casting it before a battle could be all kinds of fun.
Nondetection: A completely situational ability in a crowded field. Only take this if you know someone is scrying you and there isn't a Wizard around to take it.
Phantom Steed*: Mounts are nice. This could be key to a Lance-Fighter's ability to stay useful.
Protection from Energy: Any time you know you're going to be dealing with a specific damage type, this is nice to have.
Remove Curse: Mean DMs can make this necessary if there isn't a Cleric in the party.
Sending: You don't have many spells, and you won't use this one much at all.
Sleet Storm*: Effectively blinding everyone in a 80'x80' area without a save while they save not to fall on their butts is very, very nice at any level. Of course, you won't be able to attack anyone in the area, even with Sharpshooter, but you'll be able to avoid them.
Slow*: The defensive version of Haste. Haste is more widely applicable.
Stinking Cloud*: The best spell to use when punctuating a fart joke. Solid control with action denial, excellent for ranged Fighters
Summon Lesser Demon (XGtE)*: This is a terrible spell to take, and I openly encourage you to take it.
Thunderstep (XGtE)*: I'm not impressed by the damage, but it really does add some dramatic flair to a teleport. It can help you keep on a target while keeping pressure on their minions, at least.
Tidal Wave (EE/XGtE)*: The damage is bad, but knocking prone is nice.
Tiny Servant (XGtE)*: I love The Sword in the Stone so much. This is a fun spell. It's completely useless to you, but it's so fun.
Tongues*: You know how I said that you should pick the most widely applicable spells you can? This isn't one of those.
Vampiric Touch*: You can already make melee attacks and heal yourself, but better.
Wall of Sand (EE/XGtE): Solid control. Keeping the battlefield working in your favor is always nice.
Wall of Water (EE/XGtE): Again, the control is decent, but it won't stop your enemies in their tracks most of the time.


Arcane Eye*: While this is fine for Wizards, it is not fine for a capstone spell.
Banishment: A quality save-or-suck that can remove a character from combat for ten rounds. With Eldritch Strike and a decent Int, you can almost guarantee a success.
Blight*: If you fight a lot of magical plants, this is amazing. If not, it's pretty good, but not for the level you are now.
Charm Monster (XGtE)*: This is not a spell that will meaningfully impact epic-level play.
Confusion*: It provides decent control over a limited area, but other spells can provide better control without using your only Fourth Level spell.
Conjure Minor Elementals*: Far too limited at epic levels.
Control Water*: Do not waste your slot on this.
Dimension Door*: Teleporting is nice, but this is a massive resource to spend on one.
Elemental Bane (EE/XGtE)*: You can impose disadvantage on the save, and if your party works together this can be very useful.
Evard's Black Tentacles*: Restrained over a large area is pretty nice. The damage is negligible.
Fabricate*: As much as I love this spell, this is a terrible use of your highest level slot.
Fire Shield: A decent buff for any Fighter. No concentration, and it essentially provides reactions without using your reaction while providing resistance to your choice of cold or fire. It's a pretty sweet buff for a melee Fighter, though a ranged Fighter might not like it quite as much.
Greater Invisibility*: The only drawback is using your Concentration. It's fantastic. It's necessary if you don't want to pump your Int.
Hallucinatory Terrain*: Great spell for a Wizard, which you are not.
Ice Storm: You only get one slot at this level, and this one certainly doesn't hold up to the standards of epic level play.
Leomund's Secret Chest*: Not worth your 4th.
Locate Creature*: As above
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound*: There are less useful spells at this level. This one is of limited use, though.
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum:It's not useless, but it would very odd to dedicate your capstone spell to securing a small area for a short amount of time.
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere: Another decent way to take something out of combat, if less useful than Banishment.
Phantasmal Killer*: A great spell when the Wizard got it ten levels ago.
Polymorph*: A great spell. Even at epic levels it can hold its own.
Sickening Radiance (XGtE): The damage isn't much at this level, but the levels of Exhaustion are great.
Stone Shape*: Like many spells, this one is great for not-Fighters.
Stoneskin: At the level you get this, most damage you face will be magical, so this won't help. Even if it can help, you have to maintain concentration.
Storm Sphere (EE/XGtE): having a constant bonus action attack that provides a degree of control is very nice, especially since you can use your incredible attack power while you zap away.
Summon Greater Demon (XGtE)*: This is a terrible spell for anyone hoping to contribute meaningfully to their party. For jerks who want to ruin things for others, it's great.
Vitriolic Sphere (EE/XGtE): Your action normally deals roughly 40+ damage at this level. This action deals a little over 30. Firebolt can deal 22 damage on average at this level without costing a spell slot.
Wall of Fire: The control is decent, and if you or your allies can force movement you can constantly force your enemies into the fire.
Watery Sphere (EE/XGtE)*: Excellent control, though it takes actions to use effectively.


*=Not Abjuration/Evocation

[EvilAnagram]

An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
Fine Tuning

http://i.imgur.com/uITjLZU.jpg
Image by MarschelArts on deviantart

Feats
Feats are an important part of the Fighter's arsenal. You get more than anyone else, and that gives you a lot of room with which to customize your character. Generally, feats fall into 3 categories: Statistical boosts that provide measurable increases in the numbers you use to hurt people, Tactical changes to the way you can affect the battlefield, and Situational options you can add to your arsenal.

Generally, when selecting feats you need to realize that you are making choices that necessarily limit your future choices. If you take Medium Armor Master, you are a Medium Armor Fighter. Don't worry about Heavy Armor. If you want to focus on ranged feats, don't pick up Polearm Master. If you go with Polearm Master, then stick to feats that improve your ability to use polearms, like Great Weapon Master. Let the feats build on each other. If you branch out and try to cover competing feat paths, such as Dual Wielder and Great Weapon Master, you're simply limiting your competence.


Alert: If you multiclass Rogue Assassin this is sky-blue.
Athlete: Improving your skills for half a feat is pretty nice.
Actor: Pretty nice if you decided to boost your CHA a bit. Deception is certainly useful in mot games.
Charger: A melee Fighter can get a lot of mileage out of this. Probably more useful if you use a battle map, but the chance to damage someone who used to be out of your reach is nice.
Crossbow Expert: Machine gun crossbows? I don't know how it works, but it works quite well.
Defensive Duelist: Are you wielding a finesse weapon? Do you like not to get hit? Take this.
Dual Wielder: Perfect for Two-Weapon Fighting, which has been looking much better after recent mathematical analysis.
Dungeon Delver: A perfectly good feat. Great if your DM is a bit trap-happy.
Durable: A straight up statistical bonus to healing for half a feat. Not bad at all.
Elemental Adept: An Eldritch Knight can get some mileage out of this, but he should be focusing on non-damaging spells most of the time. Can still help with cantrips like Green-Flame Blade.
Grappler: Grapple builds always hang out in the periphery of optimization discussions. They can certainly be rewarding and fun, but most Fighters won't want to bother with this.
Great Weapon Master: Great Weapon Fighters will probably want this feat.
Healer: Early on this can really help out a struggling party. After a few levels, not so much.
Heavily Armored: You already have the benefits.
Heavy Armor Master: Are you a melee Fighter in heavy armor? Get this.
Inspiring Leader: You might not have thee Charisma, but temp HP is always nice.
Keen Mind: You have the feats to spend on flavorful stuff with few benefits like this, and you might even get use out of the INT.
Lightly Armored: You already have the benefit.
Linguist: Knowing the right language can really save your skin, depending on the game. Certainly worth taking for Adventurer's League.
Lucky: Incredibly powerful.
Mage Slayer: Having trouble with mages? Use, Mage Slayer!
Magic Initiate: Did you always want to use magic? Do you have some magic, but want even more magic? Take this!
Martial Adept: A Battle Master can get some use out of another Superiority die and a little more flexibility in how he uses it.
Medium Armor Master: DEX Fighters can't do any better than this when it comes to armor options, be they Archers, Two-Weapon Fighters, or Duelists.
Mobile: A sweet suite of passive treats.
Moderately Armored: You already have the benefit.
Mounted Combatant: If you have a mount, this is really nice.
Observant: A solid bonus to important skills.
Polearm Master: Perfect if you're wielding a polearm, and it has amazing synergy with Sentinel.
Resilient: A successful save will keep you standing and fighting for your buddies. This is an extremely good feat.
Ritual Caster: Gain more spells, save spell slots. It's a great complement to an Eldritch Knight's abilities.
Savage Attacker: More damage is a good thing, but this is a bit limited, and Great Weapon Fighting is strictly superior. Still, those Two Weapon Fighters and Duelists will get use out of this.
Sentinel: I don't want to say that you have to take this feat, but I will say that if you specialize in melee fighting that you have to take this feat. Its the tankiest feat that ever did tank!
Sharpshooter: This is awesomesauce. Ignoring cover and dealing extra damage are two things archers love to do, and that -5 to attack is offset by the +2 archery bonus already!
Shield Master: If you use a shield, this provides a nice blend of offensive and defensive boosts.
Skilled: Boosting your skills is always a worthwhile endeavor.
Skulker: Sneaky stuff can always work to your advantage. Better for a DEXbased pally.
Spell Sniper: Don't take this, even if you know magic. Your ability to hit things with other things will always outperform your ability to cast magic in pure damage dealing.
Tavern Brawler: Not a terribly powerful ability, but it gives opens up your options and provides excellent synergy with Grappler.
Tough: More HP is More HP.
War Caster: Solid for an Eldritch Knight with Booming Blade.
Weapon Master: You already have everything this provides.



Bountiful Luck: Giving someone a free reroll on a critical failure without using any resources is unreasonably awesome.
Dragon Fear: If you're at all familiar with me, you'll know I like frightening enemies.
Dragon Hide: Getting a boost to your AC for half a feat is good all by itself.
Drow High Magic: I will never turn down extra spells. Never. Do you hear me!? Never!
Dwarven Fortitude: This is a pretty solid boost to your resilience.
Elven Accuracy: This is goooooood. Really good. Like, really, really good. Dang. It's so good. Why is it so good? It should be less good.
Fade Away: Turning invisible as a reaction with no spell slot is damn nice.
Fey Teleportation: A half-feat that provides a situational ability with a great slotless teleportation spell. Yay!
Flames of Phlegethos: This just doesn't apply to you, really.
Infernal Constitution: Resisting three kinds of damage and getting advantage on poison saves is nice. Also getting a point in CON is great.
Orcish Fury: Hit more and harder. Sounds like a Fighter feat to me.
Prodigy: Four situational abilities make a blue. That's just science.
Second Chance: I like mulligans, especially when you're forcing them on others. At the very least, you can negate 20s.
Squat Nimbleness: This is basically an "I don't want to be grappled," feat, which is fine. Being grappled can be debilitating, so it might be worth it.
Wood Elf Magic: If you happen to be a Wood Elf Warlock who really wants Pass Without Trace, go for it.


Multiclassing
Honestly, there's not a single class that can't benefit from a dip into Fighter. If not for Second Wind, then for Action Surge. Chalk it up to the universal applicability of hitting things hard and often, but the sacred art of Fightering is a rewarding dalliance for any multiclasser. This guide, however, looks at what other classes offer the Fighter. We already know Fightering is awesome. It's time to see what everyone else has to offer.


Barbarian: Sweet synergy here! It's a front-loaded melee class that improves STR Fighters quite a bit. Champion crit-fishers might want to stick around for Brutal Critical.
Bard: Become a skill monkey! With songs! And Magic! If you have Charisma, a Lore Bard makes a solid multiclass opportunity. There's a bit too much overlap with the Valor Bard.
Cleric: Some Clerics are nearly Fighters already. Fightering for a god could be tons of fun, and WIS is a good stat to cast with.
Druid: Honestly, there's no real synergy here.
Monk: Every time I see a Monk/Fighter build, I think they should have ditched one of those two classes. Both are great classes, they're just not great together.
Paladin: Plenty of Synergy, you don't have to pump CHA that much, and you only have to stick around long enough to get smites. Even sticking through Channel Divinity options can be worth it.
Ranger: As with Paladin, you can grab a few features and go in less than four levels. You can even stick to spells that don't need much WIS.
Rogue: Damage and skills.
Sorcerer: It's not bad. Gain some casting ability and have a blast.
Warlock: The Pact of the Blade combines well with this.
Wizard: Spellcasting synergy with Eldritch Knight makes this a great multiclass.



Niche Builds
You know what makes Fighters different from almost every other class? Freedom. It's the 'Merica of classes. You can do whatever you want so long as your daddy's the mayor you stay within the rules. Wanna be a DPS monster? Cool. Wanna be a ranged controller? Cool. Wanna fight exclusively through bear hugs? Also cool. It's like a Disney movie: you can be anything you want, just wish upon a star learn the rules and build your character.

It's important to remember that Fightering isn't just about Fightering with swords. Sometimes you have to Fighter with bows. Sometimes, you want to use that bow to maintain complete control over the battlefield. This is how you do that.

The core of this build is the use of Maneuvers to control the battlefield while you rain death upon your enemies. Your choice of Maneuvers is important.
Disarming Strike: Useful if your companion can kick the weapon away.
Goading Attack: If your enemy can't reach you, he'll just have disadvantage on his attacks.
Maneuvering Attack: Provide covering fire while your companion reaches safety.
Menacing Attack: The enemy can't move closer to you. Melee enemies can't hurt you at all.
Precision Attack: For when you just *have* to hit.
Pushing Attack: Knock someone off a cliff or keep them out of reach.
Trip Attack: For when you have melee allies.

Feat Selection
Crossbow Expert: Absolutely necessary for anyone hoping to use a crossbow as their primary weapon. Even longbow users might want this for the melee ranged attacks.
Martial Adept: Another chance to use a maneuver.
Sharpshooter: All archers should take this feat if they can.
Feats like Alert, Lucky, and Medium Armor Master are also welcome additions to this build, though less necessary than the three above.

Weapon Selection

Shortbow: The only reason to use the shortbow is being too small for a longbow.
Longbow: The obvious favorite in non-angry styles of bow.
Hand Crossbow: Depending on your reading of Crossbow Expert, it's either not bad, but not great or game-breakingly amazing. I'm not sure which side of this Crawdad is on.
Light Crossbow: About on par with the Longbow if you have Crossbow Expert. Otherwise, a poor choice.
Heavy Crossbow: Once again, this assumes Crossbow Expertise. If you have it, this works out extremely well.
Sling: The Sling is actually perfectly capable of fulfilling the requirements of use in this class. It just has such low damage.



How do you gish in 5e? With an Eldritch Knight and the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, generally.

However, there are really two approaches to Gishing as a Fighter in 5e. The first is to boost your INT and pick whichever spells suit you. The second is to ignore your INT and pick only spells that don't rely on it. My primary spell list is focused on the former approach, but the latter is equally valid. Let's take a look at it.

Stupid Gish Spells
Cantrips Booming Blade (SCAG)
Green-Flame Blade (SCAG)

1st Level
Absorb Elements (EE)
Expeditious Retreat*
False Life*
Find Familiar*
Fog Cloud*
Shield
Sleep*

2nd Level
Blur*
Darkness
Enlarge/Reduce*
Magic Weapon*
Mirror Image*
Misty Step*


3rd Level
Blink*
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Flame Arrow (EE) *
Fly*
Haste*
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Phantom Steed*
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Wall of Sand (EE)
Wall of Water (EE)

4th Level
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility*
Wall of Fire

*=Neither Abjuration, nor Evocation

As you can see, this path severely limits your spell selection, and Eldritch Strike goes to waste entirely. Still, it's a valid build if you want to focus on your physical abilities.



Step 1: Be Proficient in Athletics
Step 2: Take Grappler
Step 3: Take Tavern Brawler

Battle Masters and Champions alike make decent Huggers. Your turns should focus on grappling, restraining, and attacking your enemies as they struggle against you. This is as niche as builds get, so have a ball.


Are you sick of pesky things like damage? Boy, have I got a build for you! The core of this build lies in taking advantage of every minor boost to defenses. This build works best with Champions thanks to Survivor or Eldritch Knights with defensive spells.

Steps to Take:
Take the Defense Fighting style.
Use heavy armor and shield.
Take Heavy Armor Master and Shield Master.
If Champion, take Magic Initiate for Shield or Absorb Elements.
If Eldritch Knight, take those spells in addition to Blur, Mirror Image, and Haste. Take Magic Initiate for Cure Wounds.

The basic premise here is to reduce the amount of damage you take, and to make the damage you do take irrelevant. The worst insult you can give to an enemy is to ignore them.


Honestly, this is purely for players who want to be Captain America. Works best with Battle Master or Banneret, though Champions work well, too.

Start as Variant Human with Tavern Brawler to improve your unarmed attacks and attacks with shield.
Use Strength build with heavy or medium armor.
Take Shield Master
The basic premise is that you fight like Captain America. Tavern Brawler makes you proficient in hitting things with your shield and increases the damage of your unarmed attacks. As a Battle Master, you exercise battlefield control and with maneuvers you can Dominate in melee. As a Banneret, you can inspire your allies while dominating your foes.

Feats to Consider:
Martial Adept
Grappler
Heavy Armor Master
Resilient (Wis)



Thanks to Garwig, whose post is here:


I'd like to propose a new build I call the Spearman.

Get the Tunnel Fighter fighting style from UA:Underdark, the Polearm Master feat, and run around with a glaive or halberd. This fighting style allows you to make opportunity attacks without expending your reaction. In other words, unlimited number of opportunity attacks in exchange for your bonus action. The feat allows you to make opportunity attacks against enemies who enter your reach. Obviously it only works if your turn is before the enemy closes to melee range, but it makes you incredibly good against hordes. Something the fighter usually lacks.
You can pair it up with Sentinel to literally build a wall of monsters who can't get close to you.
It gets even better if you are an EK and take the War Caster feat. Now you can Booming Blade everyone who enters your reach. In this case I don't recommend Sentinel, as the extra damage from BB will immediately go off if they continue to move to melee distance with you. [EvilAnagram Note: requires Spell Sniper as well.]





Any other build suggestions are welcome, as are comments and criticism .

[JellyPooga]

For a Fighter, Intelligence is always secondary to Wisdom, even for an Eldritch Knight. If an EK is throwing around Spell Attacks and Save Spells, he's probably doing something wrong; focus on those buffs and spells that don't have a save or attack. There's plenty enough of them. Dump Int, dump it hard.

Wisdom, on the other hand, cannot be ignored. You're not proficient in Wis Saves, so there's even an argument to try and get it at least as high (if not higher) than your Con. Fail a Wis Save and you could be out for the count, regardless of your HP. Then there's Perception to consider. You can't fight what you don't see; Fighters want Perception, thus Fighters need Wis.

[Rhaegar14]

I disagree on the sky-blue rating for Counterspell. It's a niche spell on a class with very limited spells known (as much as you want it in that situation, most campaigns don't see players fighting spellcasters in most encounters), and on top of that, when you have the spell slots of a Wizard a third of your level, you can't guarantee success against an enemy spellcaster's big guns. A nice spell to have when it's needed, but not sky blue.

EDIT: Along with the above, Counterspell really can't be considered in a vacuum; you only really need one member of your party to have it, and chances are there will be somebody better for it than the Eldritch Knight.

[EvilAnagram]

Snip

I can't disagree more with this. I tried, but I can't. You are always going to be bad at one important save, and while Wisdom saves are important - I'd even recommend going Resilient Wis - it's perfectly okay to have a weak Wis score. You're missing out on some things, but it's fine. It is not okay to have a weak CON score as a Fighter - you just get attacked too much for that.

And while you can stick purely to spells that don't involve Int, you won't be able to use any of your AoEs or save-or-sucks effectively if you do. You actually have access to solid spells that compliment your natural abilities, and there's no reason to ignore that.

If you're that worried about Wisdom saves, be a Variant Human and take Resilient.



I disagree on the sky-blue rating for Counterspell. It's a niche spell on a class with very limited spells known (as much as you want it in that situation, most campaigns don't see players fighting spellcasters in most encounters), and on top of that, when you have the spell slots of a Wizard a third of your level, you can't guarantee success against an enemy spellcaster's big guns. A nice spell to have when it's needed, but not sky blue.

EDIT: Along with the above, Counterspell really can't be considered in a vacuum; you only really need one member of your party to have it, and chances are there will be somebody better for it than the Eldritch Knight.
I wouldn't really call it a niche spell (preventing damage to the party and avoiding nasty enchantments is always nice) I think you raise some good points.

[Rhaegar14]

I wouldn't really call it a niche spell (preventing damage to the party and avoiding nasty enchantments is always nice) I think you raise some good points.

Yeah, but you can't always do that with Counterspell. It's only usable against an enemy with spellcasting. That's what makes it a niche spell; it is literally, utterly useless outside that situation, and it's a situation that many groups may not see every adventuring day, let alone every encounter. When you only get 12 spells known you generally want to stick with choices that you can use more often than not.

[JellyPooga]

I can't disagree more with this.

I disagree that you're always going to be bad at one important save; using point-buy Dex, Con and Wis 14 are all quite doable whilst still having points for a Primary stat at 16 (albeit having to hard-dump the other two). Dex is probably the least important of the Big-3 (much as I loathe the fact); especially so for the Fighter who can wear Heavy Armour to make up for some of the lack. For a front-liner like the Fighter, Con probably takes precedence over Wis, but a Fighter already has d10 HP and as I said in my previous post, Con Save proficiency; he needs actual Con less than other classes that lack his innate toughness. If he dumps Wisdom, on the other hand, he's never going to improve in that area (without taking a Feat for it, as you say). I'm not saying dump Con, not by a long shot, but Wisdom is an important consideration for a Fighter that wants to stay in the game...

...More so than an EK needs Intelligence. Much more. Simply put, the investment required for an EK to get Int to a level that's actually worth a damn is far too great an opportunity cost compared to the primary role of a Fighter. If you want to sling spells, be a spell-slinger. EK's cannot be good at AoE or Save-or-Suck/Die without compromising their primary function of being a Fighter.

Take a look at the spells that an EK will commonly be using; how many require an attack roll or saving throw? Shield; nope. BB/GFB; nope. Absorb Elements; nope. Do you want me to go on? Blur, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Blink, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste and so on and so forth. This is the EKs spellbook (including a couple of off-list ones he's likely to pick up). By the time an EK gets access to an offensive spell, it's already obsolete; a Wizard or Warlock has been playing with it for several levels already and is better at it than you are. You simply can't compete in those stakes, so why bother trying? "Go big or go home" is the rule in D&D; half-measures are largely a waste of time. Seriously; Int is always a dump stat for a Fighter, EKs included.

[Zman]

I do t think Dueling can quite be Blue while Two a Weapon Fighting is Red. Dueling adds +2/4/6/8 Damage per round throughout the game, while Two Weapon Fighting adds +2/3/4/5 capping out earlier often while excluding additional weapon damage and Crit chance. I mean through 10th level TWF will often be adding as much or more damage per round compared to Dueling. At level 11-19 it will often average only 1 damage less than Dueling excluding damage dice. Early game it is the superior damage dealing style excluding Varient Humans with Pole Arm Master. Even a 16 Str GWF GWM hits 35% for 21.33 averaging 7.5DPR while a dual Shortsword hits 60% of the time with two attacks for 2d6+6 or 7.8 DPR. If we make the TWF a Varient Human his DPR jumps to 9. A PM Varient Human only has a DPR of 8.4.

For a Fighter TWF is the best damage dealing style through level 4(20% of the game). It starts to fall off 5-10, assuming 18 Str. A Duelist deals 12.6 DPR, GWF deals 14.8 DPR, a GWF GWM deals 15.6DPR, PM deals 15.3 DPR, a PM GWM deals 18.4DPR, while the TWF Duelist deals 15.3 DPR or 13.5 without duelist or 11.1 DPR without even TWF.

At level 11-19 if falls behind, but still deals more damage than Duelist. At level 20 it ends up slightly behind a Duelist in damage if you didn't take a Duel Wielder.

Now, sure, it takes a bonus action, but Fighter doesn't have a ton of uses for his bonus action and I don't feel that something that is the superior damage dealing style at lvls 1-4, is extremely competitive lvls 5-10, and still out damages Duelist except for possibly lvl 20 should be rated as Red while Duelist is rated Blue. Either Duelist needs to drop down to Black or more likely Two Weapon Fighting needs to bump up to Purple/Black or even both

Archery is extremely strong. A +2 Static modifier to hit is amazing,mite still be Blue if it was a +1. It is by far the strongest Fighting Style.

Defense is solid. A static +1 to defense means a lot, it really does.

Great Weapon Fighting should not be Sky Blue unless you are multiclassing to something that throws extra damage dice.m as a pure damage upgrade, 1.33 per attack with a Greatsword, worse on every other weapon, it's mediocre and sub par compared to Dueling, TWF, and certainly Archery. It adds 1.3/2.7/4/5.33 Damage or worse. IMP GWF is Purple, Skyblue if you Multiclass to something like Paladin or even Eldritch Knight with melee Cantrips. It is not better than Black for most characters.

Protection. Situationally Sky Blue, often Red.

Two Weapon Fighting! Starts Blue for early levels, Mid levels is Black, and Purple for late levels. Lvl 20 it's Red.

[EvilAnagram]

For a Fighter TWF is the best damage dealing style through level 4(20% of the game).
This is going to be the primary source of our disagreement. The first four levels do not represent 20% of the game. The experience needed to pass through these levels is much, much lower than subsequent levels. Even adjusting for the increased experience of higher level monsters, the first three levels fly by, and that is by design. Those are introductory levels designed to introduce you to the class and system, and they purposefully have low bars for moving forward. In fact, many groups skip ahead to level 3 through 5 when they start, further reducing the importance of those levels.

This means that for the vast majority (if not the entirety, depending on your starting point) of the game, TWF is declining in usefulness, and unless you have the feat you're giving up a shield bonus to use it. Dueling stays consistently competitive while allowing you to boost your AC with a shield.

That said, you've made some good points, and I'm willing to bump TWF up to black.


Great Weapon Fighting
First, Battle Masters get extra damage dice, not that it matters because Crawdad declared it only works on the weapon dive. Second, Champions benefit the most from the rerolls because of crits. Third, the damage you deal with a great weapon is numerically superior to other styles, and this style adds to that. I think I'm going to drop it to blue, but I'm still going to call it out as consistently superior in damage.

[EvilAnagram]

Take a look at the spells that an EK will commonly be using; how many require an attack roll or saving throw? Shield; nope. BB/GFB; nope. Absorb Elements; nope. Do you want me to go on? Blur, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Blink, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste and so on and so forth. This is the EKs spellbook (including a couple of off-list ones he's likely to pick up).
Half of those are off-list spells that are only available through multiclassing or racial features. This is not a multiclassing guide.

Also, Counterspell and Dispel Magic both require Int to pull off effectively. Maybe you should reread those spells.


By the time an EK gets access to an offensive spell, it's already obsolete; a Wizard or Warlock has been playing with it for several levels already and is better at it than you are.
I already pointed this out, if you read my guide. However, when the Eldritch Knight gets first level spells, they are not obsolete, and it's perfectly reasonable to take those spells. It's also perfectly reasonable to take spells like Banishment, Counterspell, and Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, which all rely on your Intelligence and all stay competitive.

I'm not saying that you should definitely pump your Int if you're an Eldritch Knight. It's perfectly possible not to. However, there are plenty of reasons why you would want to boost your Int, and Wis saves aren't so necessary that you should limit your casting options severely to give it a small boost. You already have Indomitable, and spellcasters are not the most common enemies, enchanters even less common.

[Zman]

This is going to be the primary source of our disagreement. The first four levels do not represent 20% of the game. The experience needed to pass through these levels is much, much lower than subsequent levels. Even adjusting for the increased experience of higher level monsters, the first three levels fly by, and that is by design. Those are introductory levels designed to introduce you to the class and system, and they purposefully have low bars for moving forward. In fact, many groups skip ahead to level 3 through 5 when they start, further reducing the importance of those levels.

This means that for the vast majority (if not the entirety, depending on your starting point) of the game, TWF is declining in usefulness, and unless you have the feat you're giving up a shield bonus to use it. Dueling stays consistently competitive while allowing you to boost your AC with a shield.

That said, you've made some good points, and I'm willing to bump TWF up to black.


First, Battle Masters get extra damage dice, not that it matters because Crawdad declared it only works on the weapon dive. Second, Champions benefit the most from the rerolls because of crits. Third, the damage you deal with a great weapon is numerically superior to other styles, and this style adds to that. I think I'm going to drop it to blue, but I'm still going to call it out as consistently superior in damage.

I could easily argue that it is much more than 20% of the game experience. I bet if we took a survey of all the currently running 5e games that we'd find the majority them were 10th level or less and that the majority of those games were under level 5. Levels 1-4 may fly by, but they represent the greatest amount of playtime for most groups and adventures. Either way, TWF is not worth of Red, Purple or Black is appropriate.


No, GWF will be the source of our disagreement. You've rated it Sky Blue, like Archery, while Defense is Blue. Let's look at what GWF does vs say Archery. Archery raises your to hit chance from 60% to 70% which is a 17% increase in damage, more with Sharpshooter. At low levels, where GWF is at its best it raises Greatsword damage from 7+3 to 8.33+3 or 13% and it doesn't nothing for GWM. Dueling provides a 4.5+3 to 6.5+3 increase in damage or 27% increase in damage. Yes, Twohanded weapons deal superior damage, but GWF adds a small amount of damage. A Twohanded fighter without GWF still does great damage, GWF makes it a little bit better. Look at a Greatsword wielding Fighter with GWF vs Defense. AC16 dealing 11.33 damage or AC17 dealing 10 damage.

Dropping it to blue is reasonable, I'd still say Black.

[Corran]

I think he has the two weapon fighting red, because of how much of a bad choice TWF is for the fighter. TWF is already a weak option, that is very badly supported. And for the fighter I think it is fair to say that it is by far the worst option. Hence the fighting style that works with the worst option for the class, should be red.

I dont agree with dumping intelligence. Wis saves are important to keep you into the game, but I think it is not the worst thing in the world to spend a feat on it (resilient wis), while keeping a decent int score (14-16), to let you use 1 or 2 area or save/suck spells from time to time. Remember that you have eldritch strike, which can make you better than a wizard with higher intelligence as far as imposing SoS spells goes. Having a couple of extra spell options is worth it imo, although I can see how dumping int is a solid option too.

[EvilAnagram]

I dont agree with dumping intelligence. Wis saves are important to keep you into the game, but I think it is not the worst thing in the world to spend a feat on it (resilient wis), while keeping a decent int score (14-16), to let you use 1 or 2 area or save/suck spells from time to time. Remember that you have eldritch strike, which can make you better than a wizard with higher intelligence as far as imposing SoS spells goes. Having a couple of extra spell options is worth it imo, although I can see how dumping int is a solid option too.

Yeah, both options are perfectly viable, but the Eldritch Knight is particularly good at getting save-or-sucks to work, so dumping Int is not necessary. Besides that, a +1 Wis and Indomitable will get you through quite a lot of the Wis saves the MM creatures can inflict, and Resilient makes it even better. You don't need to boost Wis much to have a decent save there.


I could easily argue that it is much more than 20% of the game experience. I bet if we took a survey of all the currently running 5e games that we'd find the majority them were 10th level or less and that the majority of those games were under level 5. Levels 1-4 may fly by, but they represent the greatest amount of playtime for most groups and adventures.
I simply disagree. In my experience, levels 4-7 represent the most time spent playing, and in any long campaign taking TWF will absolutely hamper your ability to deal damage in the long run, especially if you have alternative means of getting bonus action abilities (Eldritch Knight, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Razorclaw Shifting, Crossbow Expert, etc.). I'm willing to bump it up a bit, but not much.


No, GWF will be the source of our disagreement. You've rated it Sky Blue, like Archery, while Defense is Blue. Let's look at what GWF does vs say Archery. Archery raises your to hit chance from 60% to 70% which is a 17% increase in damage, more with Sharpshooter. At low levels, where GWF is at its best it raises Greatsword damage from 7+3 to 8.33+3 or 13% and it doesn't nothing for GWM. Dueling provides a 4.5+3 to 6.5+3 increase in damage or 27% increase in damage. Yes, Twohanded weapons deal superior damage, but GWF adds a small amount of damage. A Twohanded fighter without GWF still does great damage, GWF makes it a little bit better. Look at a Greatsword wielding Fighter with GWF vs Defense. AC16 dealing 11.33 damage or AC17 dealing 10 damage.

Dropping it to blue is reasonable, I'd still say Black.

GWF is at its best when you have more attacks, and therefore more chances to reroll dice. Let's look at level 5, when you have two attacks and +4 to hit and damage. A duelist can deal an average of 21 damage per turn. A TWF can deal 22.5. Without GWF, a Greatsword wielder can deal 22 damage, less than TWF and more than Dueling. With GWF, it's 24.7 damage, more than everything else, and with rerolls you roll more consistently, so the variation in your damage is much lower. It's worth dropping to Blue, but it's still an excellent choice if you like to focus on offense.

[JellyPooga]

Half of those are off-list spells that are only available through multiclassing or racial features. This is not a multiclassing guide.

Apart from the three spells you get at 8th, 14th and 20th. I 'm not talking about multiclassing either. :smallwink:


Also, Counterspell and Dispel Magic both require Int to pull off effectively. Maybe you should reread the book

Also incorrect. Counterspell and Dispel Magic can do just fine without needing Int at all. Ideally, you won't need Int for them. In a pinch (i.e. when you're casting below par), yes, high Int helps, but largely speaking you're more reliant on luck than anything else in those cases. Effective use of these spells means using the right spell slot, not chancing the lucky dice roll.


I already pointed this out, if you read my guide. However, when the Eldritch Knight gets first level spells, they are not obsolete

When EK gets Burning Hands, Wizard is playing with Scorching Ray. When EK gets Scorching Ray, Wizard has been playing with Fireball for two levels already and is now starting to play with the likes of Banishment. When EK gets Banishment, Wizard has been Wishing for a level.

Take a look at what else the Fighter can do by comparison; at 7th level, an EK can cast Scorching Ray. 3x2d6 fire damage up to 120ft. Solid damage output for a Wizard at level 3. That Fighter with a Longbow can be dishing 2x(1d8+Dex) at far greater ranges. Add an extra 10 damage/hit for Sharpshooter if you like. Or go Crossbow Expert and a Hand Crossbow for 3x(1d6+Dex+10). Every turn. Scorching Ray doesn't look so hot, does it? It's obsolete compared to the Fighters own abilities, let alone what a full caster can do. Consider also that Dex adds to AC, Initiative and Stealth and is one of the Big-3 Saves and that Int...doesn't. How high are you willing to get that Int? +2? +3? How effective is a decent AoE debuff like Web or Slow (to take a couple of off-list examples, because there's really nothing on-list of the kind) going to be with a middling score like that at the level the EK gets it? It's just not worth the investment when you consider that the party Wizard has better options that are more reliable.

No, an EK is a powerful Archetype because he can buff himself without having to devote his own resources (i.e. ability scores) or those of his team-mates (i.e. the other full-casters Concentration) to it. I'm not saying you can't go that route with an EK, just that you're probably better off leaving it to the big boy casters.

[gfishfunk]

GWF is at its best when you have more attacks, and therefore more chances to reroll dice. Let's look at level 5, when you have two attacks and +4 to hit and damage. A duelist can deal an average of 21 damage per turn. A TWF can deal 22.5. Without GWF, a Greatsword wielder can deal 22 damage, less than TWF and more than Dueling. With GWF, it's 24.7 damage, more than everything else, and with rerolls you roll more consistently, so the variation in your damage is much lower. It's worth dropping to Blue, but it's still an excellent choice if you like to focus on offense.

Its also easy to forget how GWF combos within the fighter build: With Champion, you are getting a crit 1 in 10 rolls, and re-rolling a bit more dice; with Combat Superiority, you are rolling a few more dice as well without multi-classing.

Also, for TWF you are getting an extra attempt to land those attacks to activate Combat Superiority effects. If you are looking at pure damage, the difference is (imo) negligible. If you are looking at the effects of pairing TWF with cool effects, TWF gets better.

[EvilAnagram]

Also incorrect. Counterspell and Dispel Magic can do just fine without needing Int at all. Ideally, you won't need Int for them. In a pinch (i.e. when you're casting below par), yes, high Int helps, but largely speaking you're more reliant on luck than anything else in those cases. Effective use of these spells means using the right spell slot, not chancing the lucky dice roll.
When you only have two slots to choose from, you'll often have to go with the die roll when it comes to Counterspelling.



When EK gets Burning Hands, Wizard is playing with Scorching Ray. When EK gets Scorching Ray, Wizard has been playing with Fireball for two levels already and is now starting to play with the likes of Banishment. When EK gets Banishment, Wizard has been Wishing for a level.

Take a look at what else the Fighter can do by comparison; at 7th level, an EK can cast Scorching Ray. 3x2d6 fire damage up to 120ft. Solid damage output for a Wizard at level 3. That Fighter with a Longbow can be dishing 2x(1d8+Dex) at far greater ranges. Add an extra 10 damage/hit for Sharpshooter if you like. Or go Crossbow Expert and a Hand Crossbow for 3x(1d6+Dex+10). Every turn. Scorching Ray doesn't look so hot, does it? It's obsolete compared to the Fighters own abilities, let alone what a full caster can do.

I agree completely that the attack spells are terrible compared to what the Eldritch Knight can do on his own. However, they are fine when it comes to supplementing an Eldritch Knight's abilities. For example, a melee STR EK might not have a great ranged attack, but having Scorching Ray or even just Firebolt could mean that he's not completely out of the fight just because his enemy is at range. It patches over his lack of range without losing anything in the bargain. He can still have Resilient and a Wis of 12.


Consider also that Dex adds to AC, Initiative and Stealth and is one of the Big-3 Saves and that Int...doesn't. How high are you willing to get that Int? +2? +3? How effective is a decent AoE debuff like Web or Slow (to take a couple of off-list examples, because there's really nothing on-list of the kind) going to be with a middling score like that at the level the EK gets it? It's just not worth the investment when you consider that the party Wizard has better options that are more reliable.

No, an EK is a powerful Archetype because he can buff himself without having to devote his own resources (i.e. ability scores) or those of his team-mates (i.e. the other full-casters Concentration) to it. I'm not saying you can't go that route with an EK, just that you're probably better off leaving it to the big boy casters.
The EK isn't just powerful because he can buff himself. Buffing himself is totally valid, but he can also do a better job casting save-or-suck spells than even Wizards thanks to Eldritch Strike. I'd be perfectly willing to buff an EK's Int to 18 over the course of 20 levels, devoting no more than a singe ASI to it. The debuff potential of Eldritch Strike simply makes a save-or-suck very powerful for an Eldritch Knight.

Let's look at a level 20 High Elf Eldritch Knight.

He has 4 cantrips, enough to get his gish on. Let's say, Booming Blade, Lightning Lure, Firebolt, and Minor Illusion. His stats started out at 9, 16, 14, 16, 11, 8 With three ASIs, he could boost his DEX to 20 and INT to 18, and he has plenty of room for feats, including Resilient at level 6. He can lay down powerful save-or-sucks with a high probability of success. He can carry around a bow for range, or he can take some ranged attack spells and still get off a War Magic attack when he needs to deal with Range. He has decent saves in all the Big-3. He's a solid gish, and he can still cast whatever spells he wishes. He's a solid character that loses nothing from investing in Int.

[Zman]

Its also easy to forget how GWF combos within the fighter build: With Champion, you are getting a crit 1 in 10 rolls, and re-rolling a bit more dice; with Combat Superiority, you are rolling a few more dice as well without multi-classing.

Also, for TWF you are getting an extra attempt to land those attacks to activate Combat Superiority effects. If you are looking at pure damage, the difference is (imo) negligible. If you are looking at the effects of pairing TWF with cool effects, TWF gets better.

Very good point, look at 5th level Fighter vs a High AC opponent. You have two attacks, a GWF is in a tough spot, GWM is worthless and your trip attack need the first attack to be a hit for the second to benefit from it. A TWF can Trip on the first or second attack and then follow up with a second attack and/or a bonus attack.




About TWF being the worst build on a Fighter, that is arguable. TWF can still be done quite well, look at a Dex based fighter which is a perfectly viable build. Dex based with Scimitars or Dual Wield for Rapiers works well and will out damage a Duelist. It also allows for good AC in Light armor or for Stealth Builds(easily acquired as a Variant Human, half Elf, Urchin Background etc) etc. There are entire archtypes that can be very well expressed here that are solid builds and completely viable. It isn't the optimal from a damage perspective, but TWF is perfectly viable and doing something effectively better than other classes doesn't warrant a Red rating.



Edit: I see you changed the color ratings. You said it falls quickly behind when feats aren't in play, that isn't quite true, it is still good, just not when GWM and PM are in play.

[MrStabby]

Very good point, look at 5th level Fighter vs a High AC opponent. You have two attacks, a GWF is in a tough spot, GWM is worthless and your trip attack need the first attack to be a hit for the second to benefit from it. A TWF can Trip on the first or second attack and then follow up with a second attack and/or a bonus attack.




About TWF being the worst build on a Fighter, that is arguable. TWF can still be done quite well, look at a Dex based fighter which is a perfectly viable build. Dex based with Scimitars or Dual Wield for Rapiers works well and will out damage a Duelist. It also allows for good AC in Light armor or for Stealth Builds(easily acquired as a Variant Human, half Elf, Urchin Background etc) etc. There are entire archtypes that can be very well expressed here that are solid builds and completely viable. It isn't the optimal from a damage perspective, but TWF is perfectly viable and doing something effectively better than other classes doesn't warrant a Red rating.



Edit: I see you changed the color ratings. You said it falls quickly behind when feats aren't in play, that isn't quite true, it is still good, just not when GWM and PM are in play.


I think that when discussion things from an optimisation standpoint this is a pretty good baseline. From level 8+ I would say that if you have nothing better to do with your bonus action on a turn than to make a single d8+stat attack you are doing something wrong. Compare this to other martial style uses like shoving prone or a cleave type attack from great weapon mastery (d12+str+10) and it doesn't look too good. You can compare it with magic initiate for hunters mark or hex - with two attacks that is 2d6 hard to resist damage per turn + the riders on top of that. Feats give loads of better ways to use a bonus action than a low damage attack with a small weapon; if fighters were MAD and so needed more ASIs than other classes or if they got fewer feats than other classes then I could maybe see more of a place for TWF but as it is is fine, just not good for a fighter.

[JellyPooga]

When you only have two slots to choose from, you'll often have to go with the die roll when it comes to Counterspelling.

Granted.


having Scorching Ray or even just Firebolt could mean that he's not completely out of the fight just because his enemy is at range.

If you've gone with high Int anyway, sure. For no character investment cost at all, though, you could grab a handful of Darts and still be doing comparable damage to Scorching Ray using Str instead of Dex.


The EK isn't just powerful because he can buff himself. Buffing himself is totally valid, but he can also do a better job casting save-or-suck spells than even Wizards thanks to Eldritch Strike. I'd be perfectly willing to buff an EK's Int to 18 over the course of 20 levels, devoting no more than a singe ASI to it. The debuff potential of Eldritch Strike simply makes a save-or-suck very powerful for an Eldritch Knight.

Getting Int to 18 with one ASI means starting at 16. That means putting at least a base 14 (if you go Gnome or V.human with a +Int Feat) or 15 (for any other +Int Race); what's the cost of that when you're also going to want the same in at least one other stat, if not two and when you consider that Int isn't one of the Big-3? As I say, it's very doable to play a high Int EK and as you point out Eldritch Strike makes Save-or-Suck great if it's a single save spell (as opposed to a save-per-turn one).

On the other foot, Eldritch Strike is also an argument against needing high Int. The Disadvantage it imposes making up for the lack of Int. If we accept that Disadvantage is the equivalent of -5 to a check, then Eldritch Strike is the equivalent of giving you 20 Int whenever you attack someone first. Yes it stacks with actually having 20 Int, but it also means you're as good as a Wizard in that regard when you've only got average Int, allowing you to focus stats elsewhere.

It's a preference thing, certainly, but I think (and it is only my opinion) that there's more of a case for dumping Int as an EK than pumping it.

edit:
He's a solid gish, and he can still cast whatever spells he wishes. He's a solid character that loses nothing from investing in Int.

I'll counter your High Elf with a Hill Dwarf EK;

Starting Stats: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
He takes Resilient (Wis), pumps Str to 20 with 3 ASI's and whatever else fits his playstyle (probably Great Weapon Master, and Con to 20). He focuses almost solely on self-buffs, but could pick up a couple of debuffs if he was feeling saucy. He's doing more melee damage, has (a lot) more HP and better Con and Wis Saves than your Elf and can throw weapons for Ranged damage output. Without needing any investment in Int.

[Zman]

I think that when discussion things from an optimisation standpoint this is a pretty good baseline. From level 8+ I would say that if you have nothing better to do with your bonus action on a turn than to make a single d8+stat attack you are doing something wrong. Compare this to other martial style uses like shoving prone or a cleave type attack from great weapon mastery (d12+str+10) and it doesn't look too good. You can compare it with magic initiate for hunters mark or hex - with two attacks that is 2d6 hard to resist damage per turn + the riders on top of that. Feats give loads of better ways to use a bonus action than a low damage attack with a small weapon; if fighters were MAD and so needed more ASIs than other classes or if they got fewer feats than other classes then I could maybe see more of a place for TWF but as it is is fine, just not good for a fighter.

You can still use Hunters Mark or Hex from Magic initiative just fine with TWF, in fact with the extra attack as a bonus action you often have an additional d6 of damage per turn. You only dont get it on the first turn that may require sheathing one weapon then redrawing it the next turn, when casting it, norally out of move attack range anyway, or the turns you mark a new target, just as you wouldn't with cleave. Yes, cleaving is better, no doubt, but we knew that, though vs High AC enemies TWF will deal comparable damage all day every day, it falls off against low AC enemies.

What uses are you expecting for Bonus actions for Fighters at various levels? I mean with a Rogue there is a huge action cost, fighter, less so.

[SwordChuck]

Second Wind and Indomitable should be taken down a color.

Second Wind once you get past the first couple levels is very very very forgettable and really doesn't give you enough HP to be used in combat (it tends to be forgotten). Any feature that can easily be forgotten, even by veteran players, should be red.

Indomitable looks fantastic until you realize that any spell or effect that you are liable to fail (Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha) you have a good chance of failing again. When it works, great, but it is mostly a fail again feature. If it was once per short rest that would also help it but... It is once per long rest. This feature is just overall disappointing. There is a good idea there but the actual mechanics hold it back.

Really Second Wind and Indomitable should be one feature usable 1/short rest. You can choose HP (bump up the HP from what you normally get) or to pass a failed save.

Not a popular opinion but there you go.

[gfishfunk]

Under no circumstances should second wind be lower.

1. Free self-healing, even a small amount, is good. All it sacrifices is a bonus action.
2. Its life-saving early game, and useful mid-game at the least.

[MrStabby]

Bonus action for martials from level 1, with V.Human the two I mentioned (I realise some of this may be repeated):

Shove - shield mastery
attack - Great weapon Mastery
attack - charger feet
attack - crossbow expert
attack - polearm master
grapple - tavern brawler
rage - barbarian
Vow of enmity - V.Paladin

from slightly higher levels:

attack - frenzy barbarian
ensnaring strike - ranger
hunters mark - ranger/V,paladin
Hex - bladelock
Martial arts - monk
Smite spells - paladin (although you would rarely use the spells themselves, but on occasion they are worthwhile)

Later on EKs can make bonus attacks after cantrips, bards and rangers can get swift quiver

Broadening it a bit:

Spiritual weapon - cleric
Bardic inspiration - bard
Wildshape - moon druid
Second Wind - fighter
War magic - eldritch knight
Cunning action

[SwordChuck]

Under no circumstances should second wind be lower.

1. Free self-healing, even a small amount, is good. All it sacrifices is a bonus action.
2. Its life-saving early game, and useful mid-game at the least.

Early game (level 4 and below) I would rate it as sky blue or gold, you are getting a good chunk of your HP back and it can be a lifesaver. After level 4 I would rate it as red. Compeltely forgettable. It doesn't keep up with the damage you will be taking and it doesn't heal enough. Its a bonus action to use (shield master, twf, and tavern brawler grapple compete for that bonus action) and just doesn't have the healing capabilities to be worth not killing a creature.

If second wind was healing 25% of your HP no matter what the level then that would be worth it. 1d10+fighter level is pathetic. At a +3 con you eventually will be healing 14% of your HP. Short rests being completely DM dependant and from I hear not given out liberally... Second Wind is pretty pathetic.

Also, if you go to 0 you can't use second wind to save your life. I wouldn't mind seeing second wind auto activating if you hit 0 hp.

[Zman]

Bonus action for martials from level 1, with V.Human the two I mentioned (I realise some of this may be repeated):

Shove - shield mastery
attack - Great weapon Mastery
attack - charger feet
attack - crossbow expert
attack - polearm master
grapple - tavern brawler
rage - barbarian
Vow of enmity - V.Paladin

from slightly higher levels:

attack - frenzy barbarian
ensnaring strike - ranger
hunters mark - ranger/V,paladin
Hex - bladelock
Martial arts - monk
Smite spells - paladin (although you would rarely use the spells themselves, but on occasion they are worthwhile)

Later on EKs can make bonus attacks after cantrips, bards and rangers can get swift quiver

Broadening it a bit:

Spiritual weapon - cleric
Bardic inspiration - bard
Wildshape - moon druid
Second Wind - fighter
War magic - eldritch knight
Cunning action

Yes, but very very few of those are every round bonus actions with the exception of those that grant extra attacks like Frenzy, or Polearm master. The rest are either one timers like the Vow of Eminity, Second Wind, the Offhand attack with a Hand Crossbow(Due to Reloading), Hex/Hunters Mark. Or are tied to a specific fighting style like GWM, PM, Shield Master, etc. And you aren't precluded from Shoving like Shield Master, in fact you get the same number of attack and the same shove as part of your attack action, you just don't have the Dueling(If they even took it) Damage bonus, in fact it is better, as it doesn't require you to attack first.

The question was more in regards to a Fighter, when you open up all the options of the other classes, sure. But, using your Bonus action for an additional attack is a viable Strategy and does not preclude most of those occasional or once of bonus actions.

[SwordChuck]

Yes, but very very few of those are every round bonus actions with the exception of those that grant extra attacks like Frenzy, or Polearm master. The rest are either one timers like the Vow of Eminity, Second Wind, the Offhand attack with a Hand Crossbow(Due to Reloading), Hex/Hunters Mark. Or are tied to a specific fighting style like GWM, PM, Shield Master, etc. And you aren't precluded from Shoving like Shield Master, in fact you get the same number of attack and the same shove as part of your attack action, you just don't have the Dueling(If they even took it) Damage bonus, in fact it is better, as it doesn't require you to attack first.

The question was more in regards to a Fighter, when you open up all the options of the other classes, sure. But, using your Bonus action for an additional attack is a viable Strategy and does not preclude most of those occasional or once of bonus actions.

If you are low enough on HP that any other option for bonus action is a bad choice then second wind isn't going to help. If you can't push, shove, or grapple then 14% of your HP isn't going to magically make those other options viable.

Second Wind is a second rate use of a bonus action.

[gfishfunk]

Early game (level 4 and below) I would rate it as sky blue or gold, you are getting a good chunk of your HP back and it can be a lifesaver. After level 4 I would rate it as red. Compeltely forgettable. It doesn't keep up with the damage you will be taking and it doesn't heal enough. Its a bonus action to use (shield master, twf, and tavern brawler grapple compete for that bonus action) and just doesn't have the healing capabilities to be worth not killing a creature.

If second wind was healing 25% of your HP no matter what the level then that would be worth it. 1d10+fighter level is pathetic. At a +3 con you eventually will be healing 14% of your HP. Short rests being completely DM dependant and from I hear not given out liberally... Second Wind is pretty pathetic.

Also, if you go to 0 you can't use second wind to save your life. I wouldn't mind seeing second wind auto activating if you hit 0 hp.

Fair point. I've mostly played from levels 1-8, and it has been extremely helpful as I played a tanking fighter with a cleric more interested in dealing damage than with keeping the rest of us standing. It probably a black rated ability: okay for what it is, which balances the extreme usefulness early on with the lack of scaling.

A typical combat involved my character holding back half of the horde, our ranger's player passed out from booze (irl) so he just sits there, our cleric expending all his spell slots doing pretty good damage until he falls, our rogue making the occasional attack but mostly hiding, and our bard swearing that he should be able to do more than 4 damage in a round. In such a scenario, it was about the best I could hope for. :smallsigh:

[CNagy]

Second Wind keeps you standing when you need to pound pavement for a quick retreat. It's not the most glamorous use of the feature, but unless you have dipped Rogue or Monk you don't otherwise have a bonus action that helps you escape, and thus Second Wind has no competition in such scenarios. Not to say that the scenario will or should happen often, but that is how it remains useful for most of the game.

[EvilAnagram]

Snip.
First, healing 14% of your HP with a bonus action is nothing to sneeze at.

For the first twelve levels of the game, Second Wind is excellent. It heals a sizeable chunk of HP, and I have personally seen it keep PCs alive. After that, it's mostly a nice way to save on hit dice during short rests. It's nice, it can occasionally be critical, but it will always extend your viability over the course of an adventuring day. It's reliably useful, if not terribly important after the mid levels. That makes it Black.

As for Indomitable, it means rolling poorly to maintain concentration or avoid a save you should have passed won't necessarily screw you over, and you get up to three a day. I think dropping it to Blue is a good idea, but I won't go any farther.

[SwordChuck]

First, healing 14% of your HP with a bonus action is nothing to sneeze at.

For the first twelve levels of the game, Second Wind is excellent. It heals a sizeable chunk of HP, and I have personally seen it keep PCs alive. After that, it's mostly a nice way to save on hit dice during short rests. It's nice, it can occasionally be critical, but it will always extend your viability over the course of an adventuring day. It's reliably useful, if not terribly important after the mid levels. That makes it Black.

As for Indomitable, it means rolling poorly to maintain concentration or avoid a save you should have passed won't necessarily screw you over, and you get up to three a day. I think dropping it to Blue is a good idea, but I won't go any farther.

14% is something to sneeze at when the damage against you at those levels is each round (not 1/short rest).

One bite and two claw attacks on average (from adult dragon, +14 to attack) does 19 + 15 + 15 = 49 (no crits). Which, off the top of my head is 28%, of a fighter's max hp at higher levels. That second wind didn't negate the damage it essentially have you resistance for one round. The other classes are laughing.

Indomitable being saved until you roll bad when you should have passed is pretty weak. I would rather stop being paralyzed due to a bad Wis save than continue concentrating. Continuing concentration is nice but without it I can still fight... While paralyzed I can't do anything.

If indomitable was short rest I could kinda see the sky blue rating but it being 1 or 2 times per long rest? No, just no. A level 9 feature should be better than that. How about just adding Con to all saves? That would be worth more than the reroll on a bad save (4/6 Will be bad saves).

[Momar]

And you aren't precluded from Shoving like Shield Master, in fact you get the same number of attack and the same shove as part of your attack action, you just don't have the Dueling(If they even took it) Damage bonus, in fact it is better, as it doesn't require you to attack first.

Didn't they sage advice that you can bonus action shove before the attacks happen for shield master? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Yes, but very very few of those are every round bonus actions with the exception of those that grant extra attacks like Frenzy, or Polearm master. The rest are either one timers like the Vow of Eminity, Second Wind, the Offhand attack with a Hand Crossbow(Due to Reloading), Hex/Hunters Mark. Or are tied to a specific fighting style like GWM, PM, Shield Master, etc. And you aren't precluded from Shoving like Shield Master, in fact you get the same number of attack and the same shove as part of your attack action, you just don't have the Dueling(If they even took it) Damage bonus, in fact it is better, as it doesn't require you to attack first.

The question was more in regards to a Fighter, when you open up all the options of the other classes, sure. But, using your Bonus action for an additional attack is a viable Strategy and does not preclude most of those occasional or once of bonus actions.

You can use the Hand crossbow bonus action attack every round, as long as you're holding a hand crossbow in one hand and nothing in the other - see here (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats) (Crossbow Expert, third question).

Also, several of the BM manoeuvres use bonus actions, though admittedly not the best ones.

[MrStabby]

Yes, but very very few of those are every round bonus actions with the exception of those that grant extra attacks like Frenzy, or Polearm master. The rest are either one timers like the Vow of Eminity, Second Wind, the Offhand attack with a Hand Crossbow(Due to Reloading), Hex/Hunters Mark. Or are tied to a specific fighting style like GWM, PM, Shield Master, etc. And you aren't precluded from Shoving like Shield Master, in fact you get the same number of attack and the same shove as part of your attack action, you just don't have the Dueling(If they even took it) Damage bonus, in fact it is better, as it doesn't require you to attack first.

The question was more in regards to a Fighter, when you open up all the options of the other classes, sure. But, using your Bonus action for an additional attack is a viable Strategy and does not preclude most of those occasional or once of bonus actions.

My point is that there are a lot of uses for bonus actions out there. The damage that you do with an extra attack has to be compared, not with doing nothing, but with what you could have done with that bonus action. At low levels, fighting with two weapons is fine as you get to use your ASIs to buy stats rather than feats. However when you run out of needed stat boosts (or if a feat is better) you are going to start to have things you can do with your bonus action and this is when two weapon fighting drops off.

Even once per battle effects are pretty significant. I tend to find that most of my fights last three, or possibly sometimes four rounds (depending on players and willingness to expend resources). Even if you only have one other bonus action using ability you still skip 25% of that encounter's bonus attacks. As you level up and gain access to more abilities that are a better use of the bonus action, using it for a weak attack becomes less and less important.

[Zman]

You can use the Hand crossbow bonus action attack every round, as long as you're holding a hand crossbow in one hand and nothing in the other - see here (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats) (Crossbow Expert, third question).

Also, several of the BM manoeuvres use bonus actions, though admittedly not the best ones.

I am aware, but in a situation where you are using a only a hand crossbow, you aren't really concerned with TWF.


My point is that there are a lot of uses for bonus actions out there. The damage that you do with an extra attack has to be compared, not with doing nothing, but with what you could have done with that bonus action. At low levels, fighting with two weapons is fine as you get to use your ASIs to buy stats rather than feats. However when you run out of needed stat boosts (or if a feat is better) you are going to start to have things you can do with your bonus action and this is when two weapon fighting drops off.

Even once per battle effects are pretty significant. I tend to find that most of my fights last three, or possibly sometimes four rounds (depending on players and willingness to expend resources). Even if you only have one other bonus action using ability you still skip 25% of that encounter's bonus attacks. As you level up and gain access to more abilities that are a better use of the bonus action, using it for a weak attack becomes less and less important.

Yes, there is always opportunity cost. Though, things like Hex or Hunter's mark can be used when you can't get range to attack. I'm must making the point that you really don't have a use for a bonus action every round as most are specific.

[SharkForce]

- intelligence can actually be a dump stat for eldritch knights. there are some fairly compelling reasons to not dump it (like counterspell), but you can totally make EK work without a good int. for example: shield, magic missile, protection from good and evil, darknesss, gust of wind, remove curse, otiluke's resilient sphere, and others all have great uses that don't rely on int, and that's without even touching on elemental evil spells or the 4 spells you get from other schools. obviously spell options get even better with a high int (fireball still does damage on a successful save but obviously does more if they fail), but it really isn't an absolute requirement for an EK.

- second wind is overall a mediocre ability, but it doesn't start out that way. at low levels, it gives you vastly more HP per day than anyone else, and while the barbarian can outshine you in individual fights, you're much more capable of shining over the course of the day. i don't disagree with the overall rating, just with the statement that it starts off unimpressive, because when you first get it the ability is absolutely bonkers.

- indomitable unfortunately only makes you particularly likely to save against something that you already had a pretty solid chance of saving against. and unfortunately, the things you already had a pretty solid chance of saving against tend to not be the things you most need to resist as a character that gets strength and con for saving throws. gets better with feats (you can probably add wisdom to your list of decent save chance, which is a major help), but it also still doesn't help at all with checks, which leads to the next thing:

- remarkable athlete: black is probably fine for it, but it *is* worth mentioning in your guide that a variety of spells and other effects require attribute checks to escape from, and remarkable athlete can help with getting out of those things (for example, entangle and web require strength checks to escape from, not saves, so champions are the best fighters for getting out of those spells if they've already failed the save).

- how is survivor not sky blue? it's practically the only reason to strongly consider taking fighter past level 11 for some people.

- eldritch strike: web is evocation, and a bow shot is still a weapon attack. not to mention your four picks from any school. you also don't necessarily need to action surge; haste gives you an extra attack action you can use, and of course improved war magic at later levels, plus if you hit an enemy several times this round you can use a spell on them next turn with advantage.

- commander's strike goes almost straight to sky blue if you have a rogue in the party. i'd say it requires two ratings for that reason (you discuss the possibility that your allies determine it's value, but you don't reflect that in your colour rating).

- menacing attack should probably be sky blue for tanks. most of the time, enemies being unable to move closer to you *also* means they can't move past you to hit that squishy wizard, even if they are the one guy that managed to get through the web and everyone else is relying on them to knock the wizard out of concentration so everybody else can dogpile on you.

- riposte should get at least a mention of how it can combine with multiclass builds (again, rogue being a particularly obvious example).

- booming blade is not called out as a SCAG cantrip
- avoiding sunlight sensitivity and disguise self (in the friends entry) seem to have been placed on different list lines in the cantrips.

- ice knife: remember you can change your spells later when you level up. if ice knife is great at level 3 and trash at level 10, pick it at level 3 and chance it somewhere along the way to level 10. you can even use it to learn a level 2+ non-A/E spell (they are not restricted to the level of spells you can cast when you first got them, and are explicitly eligible for change when you level up).

- shatter, sniloc's snowball swarm: if you're an archer, the fact that you don't need to be right on the front lines makes these a lot better than burning hands. for shatter, the damage type is also quite significant (and a lot fewer objects you might want to destroy are likely to be especially resistant to sonic damage; your DM probably won't let you burning hands metal bars, but might let you shatter them, for example).

- you should probably rate the underdark UA fighting styles (they're both quite ridiculously good, and will probably be nerfed thoroughly before seeing publication because even if you like letting martials have nice things, those styles are clearly *massively* superior to anything in the PHB... but for completeness' sake you should probably acknowledge them. tunnel fighting and close quarters combat i think they're called).

- i would consider a bit more support in your guide for "non-standard" fighters. i don't mean "characters that refuse to use actual manufactured weapons" or "unarmed combat fighters", mind you, i just mean "dex-based fighters that took stealth and thiev's tool proficiency from their background", for example. heck, most of your advice seems to hinge around the assumption that your fighter is a strength-based melee character, with only the occasional acknowledgement of other options like archers or mounted combat.

[Vogonjeltz]

Evil, so far so good, nice guide choices.

Something to note for the EK, I'd highlight the spells that require a save from the target, because those will benefit from Eldritch Strike.

For example, Poison Spray, Acid Splash, Burninating Hands, Thunderwave, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, etc...

I'd say the EK's best higher level spells are: Wall of Fire (high damage every round, when combined with something like Thunderwave would allow the EK to cause repeat damage to groups of opponents).

[EvilAnagram]

- intelligence can actually be a dump stat for eldritch knights. there are some fairly compelling reasons to not dump it (like counterspell), but you can totally make EK work without a good int. for example: shield, magic missile, protection from good and evil, darknesss, gust of wind, remove curse, otiluke's resilient sphere, and others all have great uses that don't rely on int, and that's without even touching on elemental evil spells or the 4 spells you get from other schools. obviously spell options get even better with a high int (fireball still does damage on a successful save but obviously does more if they fail), but it really isn't an absolute requirement for an EK.

- i would consider a bit more support in your guide for "non-standard" fighters. i don't mean "characters that refuse to use actual manufactured weapons" or "unarmed combat fighters", mind you, i just mean "dex-based fighters that took stealth and thiev's tool proficiency from their background", for example. heck, most of your advice seems to hinge around the assumption that your fighter is a strength-based melee character, with only the occasional acknowledgement of other options like archers or mounted combat.
Yeah, I plan on writing a short guide to different approaches in the last section. I'm going to include the no-Int EK, different approaches to archery with the different archetypes, the brawler, ect. Fighters are just too varied not to deal with this.


- indomitable unfortunately only makes you particularly likely to save against something that you already had a pretty solid chance of saving against. and unfortunately, the things you already had a pretty solid chance of saving against tend to not be the things you most need to resist as a character that gets strength and con for saving throws. gets better with feats (you can probably add wisdom to your list of decent save chance, which is a major help), but it also still doesn't help at all with checks
If you have a +2 to a stat, it can up your chance of saving a DC15 check from 40% to 64%. That's worthwhile all on its own, but Str and Con in particular can be important. Con is a big 3 save after all, and passing Con saves can keep you from petrifying, from succumbing to disease, and from horrible curses. Having an extra roll when Con saves can have long-term effects seems pretty damn nice to me.


- how is survivor not sky blue? it's practically the only reason to strongly consider taking fighter past level 11 for some people.
The regeneration is limited. At the absolute maximum, it replenishes 10 HP a round, and for most people it will do less. That is very nice, but it's not sky-blue.


- eldritch strike: web is evocation, and a bow shot is still a weapon attack. not to mention your four picks from any school. you also don't necessarily need to action surge; haste gives you an extra attack action you can use, and of course improved war magic at later levels, plus if you hit an enemy several times this round you can use a spell on them next turn with advantage.
Web is Conjuration, and yeah, I need to rate the any-school picks.


- commander's strike goes almost straight to sky blue if you have a rogue in the party. i'd say it requires two ratings for that reason (you discuss the possibility that your allies determine it's value, but you don't reflect that in your colour rating).
It's more useful, sure, but I wouldn't rate it all that high. I think it's rating needs reconsidered, though.


- shatter, sniloc's snowball swarm: if you're an archer, the fact that you don't need to be right on the front lines makes these a lot better than burning hands. for shatter, the damage type is also quite significant (and a lot fewer objects you might want to destroy are likely to be especially resistant to sonic damage; your DM probably won't let you burning hands metal bars, but might let you shatter them, for example).
At the level you get them, the damage they provide is absolutely behind what you can put out simply by attacking. Burning Hands is fine because you get it at a level in which the Wizard is just starting to get second level spells. With those two, the damage you should be putting out is far beyond Burning Hands level, and the archer can already deal that much damage.


- menacing attack should probably be sky blue for tanks. most of the time, enemies being unable to move closer to you *also* means they can't move past you to hit that squishy wizard, even if they are the one guy that managed to get through the web and everyone else is relying on them to knock the wizard out of concentration so everybody else can dogpile on you.

- riposte should get at least a mention of how it can combine with multiclass builds (again, rogue being a particularly obvious example).

- ice knife: remember you can change your spells later when you level up. if ice knife is great at level 3 and trash at level 10, pick it at level 3 and chance it somewhere along the way to level 10. you can even use it to learn a level 2+ non-A/E spell (they are not restricted to the level of spells you can cast when you first got them, and are explicitly eligible for change when you level up).

- you should probably rate the underdark UA fighting styles (they're both quite ridiculously good, and will probably be nerfed thoroughly before seeing publication because even if you like letting martials have nice things, those styles are clearly *massively* superior to anything in the PHB... but for completeness' sake you should probably acknowledge them. tunnel fighting and close quarters combat i think they're called).

All great suggestions. Let me parcel through them a bit.

And thanks for the fixes.


14% is something to sneeze at
You seem to misunderstand the purpose of Second Wind. It's not there so that you can heal back up from a dragon's attack. It's there so you can say, "Crap, I only have 30 HP," and heal yourself, so when that dragon hits you again you're at 14 and you can still operate. It can keep you alive, even if it won't heal you to full.


Indomitable being saved until you roll bad when you should have passed is pretty weak. I would rather stop being paralyzed due to a bad Wis save than continue concentrating. Continuing concentration is nice but without it I can still fight... While paralyzed I can't do anything.
I wasn't saying that you should save it for a bad luck situation, but it can remedy a bad luck situation.

And I recommend taking Resilient for your Wis save. That way, Indomitable will absolutely help keep you in the game.


If indomitable was short rest I could kinda see the sky blue rating but it being 1 or 2 times per long rest? No, just no. A level 9 feature should be better than that. How about just adding Con to all saves? That would be worth more than the reroll on a bad save (4/6 Will be bad saves).
First, it's easy to get at least a +4 in three to four saves.

Second, keep up with the times. I already scaled it back from sky-blue.


Evil, so far so good, nice guide choices.
Thank you.


Something to note for the EK, I'd highlight the spells that require a save from the target, because those will benefit from Eldritch Strike.

I'd say the EK's best higher level spells are: Wall of Fire (high damage every round, when combined with something like Thunderwave would allow the EK to cause repeat damage to groups of opponents).
Both good suggestions, thank you. I might hold off on highlighting those spells until I can rate everything, but I'll keep it in mind when I explain the rest of my ratings.

[obeseboywonder]

Most of my critiques were already mentioned, but as a quick fix Greenflame Blade technically has two targets and cannot be used with War Caster, and Aganazzar's Scorcher is not labeled as an EE spell.

I'd also say that the Sleep spell is not that great for higher levels and shouldn't be sky blue.

[EvilAnagram]

Hey, look at that! The spells are finished!

Sorry I abandoned this for a while, but I got married, had holidays, and then had a honeymoon. Some things have to take priority over internets.

[Gwendol]

Some things have to take priority over internets.

What!? Heresy!!

EDIT: Also, you might want to add the Cavalier and Scout options from the latest UA. They are both quite solid.

Since the fighter gets the most ASI's/Feats, a guide for feat selection would be a nice addition. Split between general advice and build suggestions, perhaps?

[gfishfunk]

Hey, look at that! The spells are finished!

Sorry I abandoned this for a while, but I got married, had holidays, and then had a honeymoon. Some things have to take priority over internets.

Congrats! And thanks!

[EvilAnagram]

EDIT: Also, you might want to add the Cavalier and Scout options from the latest UA. They are both quite solid.
Oh, poop. I was on honeymoon when that came out. I'll have to take care of it.


Since the fighter gets the most ASI's/Feats, a guide for feat selection would be a nice addition. Split between general advice and build suggestions, perhaps?
That is precisely the plan. I'm getting started later today.


Congrats! And thanks!
Thanks! And you're welcome!

[MaxWilson]

14% is something to sneeze at when the damage against you at those levels is each round (not 1/short rest).

One bite and two claw attacks on average (from adult dragon, +14 to attack) does 19 + 15 + 15 = 49 (no crits). Which, off the top of my head is 28%, of a fighter's max hp at higher levels. That second wind didn't negate the damage it essentially have you resistance for one round. The other classes are laughing.

You can't just neglect to-hit chances like that.

With +14 to attack, the dragon will hit the AC 26 (Shielded EK) fighter 45% of the time. Second Wind + Shield essentially negate one round of attacks from the dragon (minus legendary actions), allowing your whole party to get in another round of damage against the dragon. Not terrific, but not horrible either.

[Sno]

What is the general thoughts about the scout from Unearthed Arcana?

In my opinion, it is a bit uninspiring as an archetype, since it just recycles old features, mainly ranger and fighter. Still, it is a good class, and better than the battlemaster, as it gets more utility. Those three maneuvers it starts with is just as good as the best battlemaster maneuvers, namely precision attack, and the option to use your superiority dice to increase your AC by that amount, and take half damage even if it still hit. Not sure if that AC bonus last the whole round, such as shield...? Also, Martial Adept suddenly becomes very tempting, and maybe even sky blue...?

Nice to see some thoughts about this archetype :smallsmile:

[EvilAnagram]

What is the general thoughts about the scout from Unearthed Arcana?

In my opinion, it is a bit uninspiring as an archetype, since it just recycles old features, mainly ranger and fighter. Still, it is a good class, and better than the battlemaster, as it gets more utility. Those three maneuvers it starts with is just as good as the best battlemaster maneuvers, namely precision attack, and the option to use your superiority dice to increase your AC by that amount, and take half damage even if it still hit. Not sure if that AC bonus last the whole round, such as shield...? Also, Martial Adept suddenly becomes very tempting, and maybe even sky blue...?

Nice to see some thoughts about this archetype :smallsmile:

Honestly, it's a pure utility build. The Battle Master is much, much better at dealing damage and controlling the battlefield. It's not as useful to allies as a Purple Dragon Knight, nor is it as good at dealing damage as a Champion or Cavalier. The damage probably falls under that of a Ranger for most of an adventuring career, and the Ranger has spell utility on top of that. It's simply not terribly good at anything.

[ColonelHero]

Honestly, it's a pure utility build. The Battle Master is much, much better at dealing damage and controlling the battlefield. It's not as useful to allies as a Purple Dragon Knight, nor is it as good at dealing damage as a Champion or Cavalier. The damage probably falls under that of a Ranger for most of an adventuring career, and the Ranger has spell utility on top of that. It's simply not terribly good at anything.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure that Scout is really worse at damage than the BM. It essentially has Precision Attack, which was the most damaging of the Maneuvers anyhow (because it makes a miss into a hit so it contributes much more average damage than 1d8), right? The scout seems to sacrifice battlefield control for skills, a tier the fighter isn't great at. But it doesn't seem to sacrifice damage.

[Arial Black]

When I first saw 5E I realised that I could finally play a Dex-based unarmoured swashbuckler right out of the box. In 3E, I had to take feats just to be worse than a Str fighter.

So, at level 1, variant human, Magic Initiate:-

* prestidigitation, because I love it, keeping clean is important (my best two stats are Dex and Cha), and I can use it to sketch drawings like I had charcoal. I know it's more about the role-play than power game, but I'm happy that I'm powerful enough. I'm okay with a guide like this rating it red though

* ray of frost, because I have a ranged attack without carrying weapons or buying weapons, and it looks cool. Later, I can buy some darts to throw

* mage armour. I'm astonished you rated it red! I can only cast my 1st level spell 1/day with this feat, and what better than a spell which lasts 8 hours? It also gives me as good or better AC than any armour I can buy, and I don't need to spend my starting gold; typically, armour is the most expensive starting equipment a fighter will buy. As a Dex fighter, my AC mod will be +3 at 1st, +4 at 4th and +5 at 6th. With this spell my AC at 1st is 16, better than any light armour or any medium armour that won't mess up my stealth. At 6th my AC will be 18, as good as full plate. Also, because I didn't need to spend any money on armour or projectile weapons I could afford a silvered rapier at level 1; very cool and matches my noble background. I even made it my bond

I realise that you can't base your guide on role-play aspects, but just considering game mechanics the spell gives you better AC than anything else available to you. For this reason alone, rating the spell at the worst possible colour is astonishing.

[Dimers]

mage armour. I'm astonished you rated it red! I can only cast my 1st level spell 1/day with this feat, and what better than a spell which lasts 8 hours? It also gives me as good or better AC than any armour I can buy, and I don't need to spend my starting gold; typically, armour is the most expensive starting equipment a fighter will buy. As a Dex fighter, my AC mod will be +3 at 1st, +4 at 4th and +5 at 6th. With this spell my AC at 1st is 16, better than any light armour or any medium armour that won't mess up my stealth. At 6th my AC will be 18, as good as full plate.

I imagine EvilAnagram was speaking about an EK's spell choices, not Magic Initiate, but ...

Down sides: requires a certain race to get at level 1, can't benefit from magical armor's bonus, can't benefit from fighting style because you're not wearing armor, expends resources that could go elsewhere.

Other up side: Hey, if you want to go EK later anyway, you'll be able to cast mage armor out of your wizard spell slots, too. Nope, just incorrect, got confused. But I suppose it's good for a game where the DM hates PCs having items.


Second Wind is a second rate use of a bonus action.

I know the Second Wind argument is pretty old at this point, but I'd like to point out that your use of a bonus action doesn't have to be during combat. (And yet it can be, if that's what will save your butt.) So go ahead and make one more bonus-action attack now, while still benefitting from Second Wind after the dust settles.

[EvilAnagram]

Hmmmm. I'm not sure that Scout is really worse at damage than the BM. It essentially has Precision Attack, which was the most damaging of the Maneuvers anyhow (because it makes a miss into a hit so it contributes much more average damage than 1d8), right? The scout seems to sacrifice battlefield control for skills, a tier the fighter isn't great at. But it doesn't seem to sacrifice damage.

Tripping attack grants extra damage, and if the trip succeeds you have advantage to hit multiple times over, increasing your ability to hit and allowing you to use more damaging maneuvers. Precision Attack is great, but having a maneuver to use when you hit without using it is also great. If your Scout has Archery, your chance of hitting is pretty damn good no matter what.

It's not a bad option, but it's certainly not as powerful on the battlefield as the Battle Master is. An Archer Battle Master gets more maneuver options, period, and a lot more of those options can exert strong control over the battlefield and increase your party's overall effectiveness, on top of dealing extra damage. And yes, the extra damage is great, especially when you can use both Precision Attack and another maneuver at the same time.


* mage armour. I'm astonished you rated it red! I can only cast my 1st level spell 1/day with this feat, and what better than a spell which lasts 8 hours? It also gives me as good or better AC than any armour I can buy, and I don't need to spend my starting gold; typically, armour is the most expensive starting equipment a fighter will buy. As a Dex fighter, my AC mod will be +3 at 1st, +4 at 4th and +5 at 6th. With this spell my AC at 1st is 16, better than any light armour or any medium armour that won't mess up my stealth. At 6th my AC will be 18, as good as full plate. Also, because I didn't need to spend any money on armour or projectile weapons I could afford a silvered rapier at level 1; very cool and matches my noble background. I even made it my bond

I realise that you can't base your guide on role-play aspects, but just considering game mechanics the spell gives you better AC than anything else available to you. For this reason alone, rating the spell at the worst possible colour is astonishing.
As Dimers pointed out, I was not considering Magic Initiate in my spell ratings - just the Eldritch Knight path. I guess the armor choices are a much bigger concern for those who use the starting gold variant rule, but the cost quickly stops mattering in a game in which by RAW you can't buy magic items.

As for why I decided to rate it red, it's a resource that could go somewhere else that only has one AC over Studded Leather. Armor can be enchanted. At low-mid levels, a Breastplate is better. At higher levels, half plate with Medium Armor Master is better. If you don't pump Dex, any Medium or heavy armor is better. The benefits simply aren't worth the resource cost.

That said, I think I should upgrade it to purple. Your build shows that some builds can benefit from it, even if it's not optimal in the long run.

[MaxWilson]

Other up side: Hey, if you want to go EK later anyway, you'll be able to cast mage armor out of your wizard spell slots, too. Nope, just incorrect, got confused. But I suppose it's good for a game where the DM hates PCs having items.

You were correct the first time. EK's Spellcasting feature allows you to cast wizard spells with your slots. Mage Armor is a wizard spell. Ergo, this is one of those special cases where spending slots on your Magic Initiate spell is allowed.

[Dimers]

You were correct the first time. EK's Spellcasting feature allows you to cast wizard spells with your slots. Mage Armor is a wizard spell. Ergo, this is one of those special cases where spending slots on your Magic Initiate spell is allowed.

Wait ... really? How's it not an "Eldritch Knight spell" once the EK takes it? *read read read* I'll be darned. Little extra bonus for EKs and ATs, in that case.

[Arial Black]

As Dimers pointed out, I was not considering Magic Initiate in my spell ratings - just the Eldritch Knight path. I guess the armor choices are a much bigger concern for those who use the starting gold variant rule, but the cost quickly stops mattering in a game in which by RAW you can't buy magic items.

As for why I decided to rate it red, it's a resource that could go somewhere else that only has one AC over Studded Leather.

A spell which gives +1 AC for 8 hours with no concentration, as opposed to shield of faith which gives +2 AC, takes your concentration, and lasts how long?


Armor can be enchanted.

Magic armour can go to +3, but Bracers of Defence can only be worn if you are unarmoured, and that gives +2, and is a lot more common.


At low-mid levels, a Breastplate is better.

At 1st, I have 16 Dex. Wearing a breastplate my AC is 14 (armour) + 2 (max Dex) = 16. With mage armour I have 13 (spell) + 3 (Dex) = 16. The same AC, and no-one can afford a breastplate as their starting armour.


At higher levels, half plate with Medium Armor Master is better.

Half-plate AC 15 + 3 (max Dex) = 18. At 6th level my Dex is 20: AC 13 (spell) +5 (Dex) = 18.

At this point, both builds have spent one feat, but I also have two cantrips.


If you don't pump Dex, any Medium or heavy armor is better. The benefits simply aren't worth the resource cost.

If you don't pump Dex, sure. But if you are (and Dex fighters are as good or better than Str fighters anyway) then you are going to get 20 Dex ASAP.

Let me put it another way...

Here I am, a 6th level Dex-based battlemaster with the Dueling style and my Magic Initiate feat giving me mage armour and my two ASIs pumping my Dex to 20 (improving attack, damage, AC, initiative, Stealth, Acrobatics, save DC for my manouvers; why wouldn't I pump Dex?). We defeat the BBEG and the DM says we can each choose a treasure from his hoard.

There is a pair of Bracers of Defence (rare). Wearing those, my AC is 20 (spell 13 + 5 Dex + 2 Bracers). What magical armour could there be in that hoard that I would rather have, in terms of the AC it would give me?

Among the rare items, rare magic armour is +1, so +1 studded leather would give me AC 18. No good. Some +1 half-plate would give me AC 18 (max Dex +2). Even +1 plate would give me AC 19.

Very rare could get me +2 magic armour, but even that gets me AC 19 (studded leather or half-plate) or 20 (full plate), not better than what I have with the bracers.

Okay, let's go legendary for +3 magic armour. Studded leather or half-plate would give me 20, meaning I'd have to traipse around in armour just to have the same AC as I have unarmoured. I could take Medium Armour Mastery for AC 21 with legendary +3 half-plate, but I have better things to do with my feats at this point than just getting +1 AC, hoping to get this rather specific armour.

A suit of +3 plate would give me AC 21. Would I start wearing it though? My Str is 8, so that's a problem. My Stealth would be nerfed, my movement lowered, I'd have to go around town wearing full plate (Hey you! You in the tin suit! Where do you think you're going?) and it takes ages to don/doff and a mate who wants to help me.

And at what stage of the campaign do I expect to find +3 full plate? There's a lot of gaming between rare and legendary, and the game might end before then. And if I did get lucky and find +3 full plate, and ignored all the disadvantages to get that +1 AC, would I do that? Or would I keep what I've got and let the guy in my party who does wear heavy armour use it to increase his AC by 5?

[Dimers]

Magic armour can go to +3, but Bracers of Defence can only be worn if you are unarmoured, and that gives +2, and is a lot more common.

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I don't have the DMG and would like to find out -- do Bracers of Defense stack with other nonphysical armor oddities like mage armor, monk Wisdom, barbarian Constitution, bladesong or dragon sorcerer scales?

[EvilAnagram]

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I don't have the DMG and would like to find out -- do Bracers of Defense stack with other nonphysical armor oddities like mage armor, monk Wisdom, barbarian Constitution, bladesong or dragon sorcerer scales?

Yes (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/25/monks-bracers-of-defense/).


A spell which gives +1 AC for 8 hours with no concentration, as opposed to shield of faith which gives +2 AC, takes your concentration, and lasts how long?
No comparison. SoF adds to whatever AC you already have, while Mage Armor replaces your AC at the cost of a spell slot or two each day.


Magic armour can go to +3, but Bracers of Defence can only be worn if you are unarmoured, and that gives +2, and is a lot more common.
It's a rare, expensive shield bonus for mages and monks. An armored Fighter with +1 armor and a shield still beats the Mage Armor Fighter with Bracers of Defense.




At 1st, I have 16 Dex. Wearing a breastplate my AC is 14 (armour) + 2 (max Dex) = 16. With mage armour I have 13 (spell) + 3 (Dex) = 16. The same AC, and no-one can afford a breastplate as their starting armour.
Not as starting, but I don't recommend designing builds around the first level. That level goes by the quickest, by far.



Long example

Let's say your level 6 Dex Battle Master finds +1 Half-Plate. His AC is now 18. But wait! He can use a shield. That's 20 AC. Get Medium Armor Master? 21 AC, no drawbacks, and your armor might have a cool effect. Like a never ending supply of raspberries that can be pulled out of the codpiece.

Can Mage Armor give you never ending raspberries? No, it cannot. Hence, Mage Armor is only upgraded to purple, because it's viable, but not optimal, and it uses resources that could be spent elsewhere.

EDIT: I'd like to make it clear that I'm not knocking on your build. It's a perfectly solid build, but I wouldn't recommend Mage Armor on a general basis.

[Arial Black]

No comparison. SoF adds to whatever AC you already have, while Mage Armor replaces your AC at the cost of a spell slot or two each day.

True, but if people are prepared to cast a 1st level spell for a concentration-based short term +2 bonus, it's not crazy to do the same to get a non-concentration +1 AC bonus for 8 hours. Mage armour is +1 AC over studded leather.


It's a rare, expensive shield bonus for mages and monks. An armored Fighter with +1 armor and a shield still beats the Mage Armor Fighter with Bracers of Defense.

My swashbuckling fighter never uses a shield. He's using his off hand to cast ray of frost or throw darts.


Not as starting, but I don't recommend designing builds around the first level. That level goes by the quickest, by far.

Even when you can afford a breastplate, it doesn't give you a better AC. Nor does half-plate by 4th.

[MeeposFire]

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I don't have the DMG and would like to find out -- do Bracers of Defense stack with other nonphysical armor oddities like mage armor, monk Wisdom, barbarian Constitution, bladesong or dragon sorcerer scales?

Yes but it counts as one of your three special items. That really kills it unless you have nothing else better to use that on and no one else needs it more than your EK.

[ZenBear]

IMO Mage Armor EKs are viable but definitively suboptimal because it costs spell slots to cast and the 8 hour time limit will come up, so it won't always be just one slot per day. Still, there are advantages to weightless, invisible armor, especially in combination with a weapon you can summon to your hand from a mile away. Go in unarmed and unarmored, then when negotiations inevitably go south you have a fully battle ready EK in the space of a single round.

I would like to poll the forum, what spells do you choose as you level? Obviously Shield and Absorb Elements, but what else? RAW (if I'm reading it correctly) your non-A/E spell choice at level 3 can't ever be changed, so that's an important one. I read the spells section but I want to know what people actually choose, not just what options seem decent on paper.

[EvilAnagram]

I would like to poll the forum, what spells do you choose as you level? Obviously Shield and Absorb Elements, but what else? RAW (if I'm reading it correctly) your non-A/E spell choice at level 3 can't ever be changed, so that's an important one. I read the spells section but I want to know what people actually choose, not just what options seem decent on paper.

That depends. If you like to boost your Int, Tasha's Hideous Laughter stays consistently useful at all levels, especially when there's a lot of other melee characters in your party.

Find Familiar has been so popular in one of my groups that it's begun to be disruptive. A flying familiar can easily use the Help action to give you advantage on an attack, and he can do that every round.

Disguise Self is excellent as an infiltration or shenanigan tool, but it's no help in combat.

Those are the ones I have direct experience with that I think will be of the greatest benefit over the long term.

[Citan]

Hi! Thanks for the guide.

I read it very quickly so may have other says later, but I'd like now to discuss the two hot topics of the thread.

1. INT for Eldricht Knight.
I think we all agree that an EK with dumped stat is perfectly viable, no doubt on this.
With that said, I totally disagree on the opinion expressed here and there that it SHOULD be dumped.
As EvilAnagram said, it can be very potent, because the ability to put an enemy to be at disadvantage on a save is very rare.
Basically, what I can think of by memory is Portent from Wizard, Bestow Curse if it succeeds, and Arcane Tricskter while hidden.
Here you put disadvantage on a successful weapon attack which is your primary expertise.
The most obvious use-case of this is a Bestow Curse that you would inflict to prepare an ally's game-changing spell but you get it at 14. But even a Blindness could be a game-changer, or a well-placed Slow.

It's certain though that the true beauty of this ability emerges when multiclassing Fighter with any debuff spellcaster (take Sorcerer. Attack 2 enemies, twin polymorph them as ducks, squash them, have fun. No? :)).

Also, if you have a high INT, even cantrip can become useful as a basis. ;)

2. Mage Armor
I don't understand how this spell would be rated purple when Sleep is rated Blue.
Beyond the "expense" aspect of acquiring gear VS Mage Armor...
1. AFAIK, you CAN wield a Shield and benefit from it (Mage Armor sets base AC. Shield provides a flat +2 bonus). So no argument.
2. Mage Armor is great in situations where you've been stripped off (such as in prison, an occurence not so rare in an adventurer's life, or to avoid sketchy assassins during a reception ;)).
3. MA is in generally great for...
a) any Stealth build (DEX based)
b) any Ranged build (DEX based, both hands taken -bow- or need free hand -crossbow-)
4. And, more importantly, you can swap it for another spell when you feel it has become useless.

As for Sleep, it's great for a few levels but loses potency quickly, so will probably be swapped at lvl 5-6 also.

Hence, imo, Mage Armor should be rated at the very least black, maybe even blue for DEX-based builds. :)

[ZenBear]

That depends. If you like to boost your Int, Tasha's Hideous Laughter stays consistently useful at all levels, especially when there's a lot of other melee characters in your party.

Find Familiar has been so popular in one of my groups that it's begun to be disruptive. A flying familiar can easily use the Help action to give you advantage on an attack, and he can do that every round.

Disguise Self is excellent as an infiltration or shenanigan tool, but it's no help in combat.

Those are the ones I have direct experience with that I think will be of the greatest benefit over the long term.

I'm also asking about higher levels, how would you build your EK? If you were playing an EK from 1-20, what Abj/Evo spells would you pick up at which levels?

[EvilAnagram]

I'm also asking about higher levels, how would you build your EK? If you were playing an EK from 1-20, what Abj/Evo spells would you pick up at which levels?

For an optimized EK, I would probably pick Booming Blade and Minor Illusion for cantrips. If I wanted Dex, I'd just use a Dex ranged weapon as backup, otherwise I'd pick Fire Bolt for my third cantrip.

1st Level Spells:

Absorb Elements - Defense and offense together.
Shield - Duh.
Burning Hands - Fighters don't have AoEs, so this is a great complement to your natural abilities early on.
Magic Missile - Because sometimes you run into something that needs force damage.


2nd Level Spells:

Darkness - Solid contingency spell.
Scorching Ray - Again, the damage remains decent when you pick it up, and it complements a melee Fighter nicely.
Mirror Image - Awesome defense without concentration.



3rd Level Spells:

Counterspell - Because it will occasionally save your ass.
Dispel Magic - As above.
Wall of Sand - Control is nice.



4th Level Spells

Banishment - An amazing save-or-suck that takes excellent advantage of the EK's features.
Fire Shield - Is always awesome.



Mage Armor
I feel like I've made my feelings on Mage Armor known. It has its place, but in the long run you'll benefit more from just having armor and not needing to use a spell slot for AC every day, especially since there are so many ways to dispel it while armor tends to stick around.


Sleep
At later levels, Sleep is useful for taking a wounded nasty out of the fight long enough to deal with someone else. It's much more limited, I agree, but it has its place and is simply ridiculously useful at lower levels.

[Arkhios]

Thought I might post a build of sorts:

A player in my group (with my help) converted his Captain America build for 5e using Eldritch Knight and Tavern Brawler.
Throwing and hitting for damage with a shield is in my opinion an improvised use of a shield, and thus Tavern Brawler allows adding proficiency on the attack roll. Since Improvised Weapons can be treated like manufactured weapons (by RAW), Arcane Bond should apply on bonding with your shield. You can throw your shield, then summon it back with a bonus action. So, that's basically it. The whole concept needs 3 levels of eldritch knight and the possibility of using shields without penalty (barring monk MC for example). Beyond that it's your call for how you want to continue. Of course, if you plan to rely on armor instead of unarmored defense (Cap does use some sort of armor in the MCU so it's plausible), you could still take monk as your MC. Unarmed damage still increases and functions while wearing armor, as does flurry of blows. (though Arcane Bond competes with Flurry of Blows for BA so it's one or the other per round).


Another point worth noting (I didn't read the whole thread just to find if someone else had said it already, but...)
I would consider upgrading bard's rating for multiclassing, at least for Champion archetype. Even though Jack of all Trades grants you a bonus to checks with which you're not proficient with, the bonus is not proficiency bonus, it's just a bonus equal to half of it. RAW I'd say that Remarkable Athlete stacks with Jack of all Trades (and if you read it up close, they even it out. The other is rounded up, while another is rounded down), effectively granting you a bonus equal to your full proficiency bonus for specific checks. Especially handy with Dexterity checks, as initiative check is Dexterity check! You now have proficiency with Initiative. Go nuts with Alert feat, and possibly even with Protection style, making you incredible tank, especially with cutting words and/or vicious mockery (taunts)

[EvilAnagram]

snip

I like that build. I'm going to include ways to be Captain America in an update.

As for Bards, I think you're right. They're easily on par with Warlocks as a multiclass option.

[Finieous]

Re: Scout, they get few maneuver options, but that Defensive Duelist/Uncanny Dodge combo is pretty fantastic.

[djreynolds]

Re: Scout, they get few maneuver options, but that Defensive Duelist/Uncanny Dodge combo is pretty fantastic.

First off awesome guide, really cool.

And second, this scout maneuver is awesome.

[EvilAnagram]

First off awesome guide, really cool.

And second, this scout maneuver is awesome.

Thanks! And I agree that the Scout has decent maneuvers, however he lacks versatility in his selection. Still, totally viable.

Side note: if anyone has builds they think would be good for this guide, post them and I'll include them and credit you.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Thanks! And I agree that the Scout has decent maneuvers, however he lacks versatility in his selection. Still, totally viable.

Side note: if anyone has builds they think would be good for this guide, post them and I'll include them and credit you.

I feel Martial Adept fixes that problem quite well. Sure, you're blowing an ASI, but you're a fighter. You can afford to do that.

Also, I feel you might be overvaluing Heavy Armour Master a bit. It's very good at low levels, but 3 damage isn't that much at higher levels. It's still good, and definitely worth it if you have an odd strength, but it's a secondary priority to things like GWM or Shield Master.

[Specter]

Very nice guide.

Some things I found worth noting:
1) For the Hawkeye build, Martial Adept feels like a wasted feat: The Battlemaster can already pick his favored maneuvers from level 3, and eventually they will have so many that the feat will feel wasted.
2) Commander's Strike is also good for melee fighters that have ranged support. You may not be able to attack them, but the archer can, and meanwhile you're dashing to reach them.
3) I see you left out crossclass skills, was that on purpose?

[SharkForce]

martial adept is to get you an extra superiority die so you get to use your maneuvers more often.

[EvilAnagram]

I feel Martial Adept fixes that problem quite well. Sure, you're blowing an ASI, but you're a fighter. You can afford to do that.

Also, I feel you might be overvaluing Heavy Armour Master a bit. It's very good at low levels, but 3 damage isn't that much at higher levels. It's still good, and definitely worth it if you have an odd strength, but it's a secondary priority to things like GWM or Shield Master.

Both are good points, and I've made alterations, but I want to point out that after level 5 or so the creatures in the MM rely more and more on multiattack to deal scaled damage, and the feat provides DR to each hit. In one turn late game, it can block 12 damage from a single creature. That can easily turn into 30+ damage blocked over the course of a battle, which can keep you up and Fightering.


Very nice guide.

Thank you!


1) For the Hawkeye build, Martial Adept feels like a wasted feat: The Battlemaster can already pick his favored maneuvers from level 3, and eventually they will have so many that the feat will feel wasted.
An extra maneuver die is worth the feat, especially when you rely so heavily on them as in this build.


2) Commander's Strike is also good for melee fighters that have ranged support. You may not be able to attack them, but the archer can, and meanwhile you're dashing to reach them.
Good point.


3) I see you left out crossclass skills, was that on purpose?
Yes. That's how I've done it in all of my guides. The main method of gaining other skills is through the background, and choosing a background for any reason other than story is anathema to me.

[djreynolds]

I like heavy armor master because it isn't dependent on rage or lack of magic weapons like stoneskin. So its just -3 to all martial damage, not bad. And +1 strength.

I like the scout's parry, its like defensive duelist coupled with uncanny dodge. And precision is awesome for archers using sharpshooter.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Hi, I'm want to build a Samurai in D&D 5e, so I spend some time building one, but I have some troubles here. GWM is good, but versatile weapons doesn't seems good with it, you don't give the same damage of duelist and duelist can use a shield. I really don't know what to do. What do you guys think what should I do? :smallannoyed:

[ZenBear]

Hi, I'm want to build a Samurai in D&D 5e, so I spend some time building one, but I have some troubles here. GWM is good, but versatile weapons doesn't seems good with it, you don't give the same damage of duelist and duelist can use a shield. I really don't know what to do. What do you guys think what should I do? :smallannoyed:

If you want to use a versatile weapon then you should take Defensive Fighting Style. This allows you to freely switch between 1 and 2-handing your weapon without a loss of benefits. Get creative with how you use your free hand. Grapple checks (Samurai practiced Judo as an integral part of their fighting style), carrying a torch, hanging from a rope, etc.

[Ryuu Hayato]

If you want to use a versatile weapon then you should take Defensive Fighting Style. This allows you to freely switch between 1 and 2-handing your weapon without a loss of benefits. Get creative with how you use your free hand. Grapple checks (Samurai practiced Judo as an integral part of their fighting style), carrying a torch, hanging from a rope, etc.

The problem is that duelist will give +2 on d8 and a person can use a shield giving +2 ac, so he will have a better damage and ac. Duelist is really op.

[ZenBear]

The problem is that duelist will give +2 on d8 and a person can use a shield giving +2 ac, so he will have a better damage and ac. Duelist is really op.

It isn't OP. It's just good. Grappling is borderline OP, especially on a Fighter who gets 3-4 attacks per Attack Action, and can Action Surge. Check this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition) out.

Besides, you're wanting to play a Samurai. I've never seen an image or read of a Samurai that used a shield. Don't worry so much about optimization.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, I'm with him. Optimizing is fine, but when it clashes with your concept you should stick with the concept. If you pick the Defensive style you'll be an excellent front line combatant with a samurai feel.

Of course, you could always pick up GWF and a glaive and style it as a naginata.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Hey guys, don't get me wrong. I don't have any plan to use shield with my Samurai. But, I'm thinking about another character using this optimize. I'm planning use Great Weapon Fighting.

I really don't see any avantage using Defensive Fighting Style, +1 AC is good, if you don't get any magical item on game. A normal shield guaranteed +2 AC, on the other hand a magical shield guaranteed up to +5 AC (shield +3).

My question is: what the advantage of using versatile weapon since duelist can have more base damage (3-10 versus 1-10) and can have better AC? :smallannoyed:

Thanks for everyone replying :smalltongue:

[djreynolds]

Bounded accuracy has changed the game. The biggest change along with the ability cap. So you can get by with 16 in strength and dex. The difference is a +3 to hit vs a +5.

For me, a samurai will always be extremely MAD, almost encompassing the monk and barbarian and paladin and the fighter. I think what people want is the ultimate swordsman, I'm not sure if the historical samurai was this, he was also an archer, artist, horseman, philosopher, etc.

Honestly, the battlemaster or even the banneret could make for a good samurai build. More of a leader.

A kensai, is more of the ultimate weapon specialist. But a samurai would need to be well rounded IMO.

I think when making a samurai, I rolled up a 20th level human banneret 16/16/16/12/14/16 with GWM, inspiring leader, and resilient wisdom, its not optimized but formidable. And I would give him the history, insight skills freely.

Something like this, I would allow the use GWM with a longsword, or katana. Its not OP, it shows character investment.

[Firechanter]

Besides, you're wanting to play a Samurai. I've never seen an image or read of a Samurai that used a shield. Don't worry so much about optimization.

I think that's kinda the point. Of course Samurai didn't use shields. They also didn't use their off-hand to grapple, as far as I'm aware. The problem with such a "purely flavour" build is that it risks being quickly outclassed by any other melee character with more stringent picks - be it Sword&Board (Dueling), Greatsword (GWF/GWM) or whatever.

Versatile weapons really aren't good for much in this game. You'd never tailor your fighting style to using a longsword two-handed. It's just that in a game where you can't pick your own magic items but have to rely on random finds, you might sometimes be forced to using sub-optimal weapons. For instance, my GWM Pala had to use a Battleaxe +1 for several levels, thus being unable to use the -5/+10 attack, because we ran into lots of monsters that had resistance against nonmagical damage.

So, what to do? Well, maybe make him go TWF, that seems reasonably Samurai-y.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You do realise Samurai used weapons other than katanas and other longsword-equivalents, right? You could have a Samurai using a daisho pair (two weapon fighting), a no-dachi (greatsword), or even a yumi (bow), yari (spear), or naginata (probably equivalent to a halberd in game mechanic terms). Really, any fighting style other than weapon and shield (they didn't really use shields, I think because Japanese metal really isn't suited for it due to Japanese metal being kinda rubbish) would work for a Samurai.

[Firechanter]

Really, any fighting style other than weapon and shield (they didn't really use shields, I think because Japanese metal really isn't suited for it due to Japanese metal being kinda rubbish) would work for a Samurai.

Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.
I'm not even sure if the all-metal shield we know from such sources as the 3E equipment list has ever been a thing, historically.

But yeah, apart from that, basically any type of weapon could easily be fluffed as Samurai-style -- No-Dachi, Naginata, whatevs.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.
I'm not even sure if the all-metal shield we know from such sources as the 3E equipment list has ever been a thing, historically.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't an honour thing (they did use some forms of shields similar to mantlets and pavises at some points), but looking closer the main reason seems to be the prevalence of two-handed weapons.

[EvilAnagram]

I really don't see any avantage using Defensive Fighting Style, +1 AC is good, if you don't get any magical item on game. A normal shield guaranteed +2 AC, on the other hand a magical shield guaranteed up to +5 AC (shield +3).
You vastly overestimate the chances of finding a +3 shield in 5e. It's extremely unlikely. A 20 AC in 5e is fantastic, and an 18 is damn good. If you have the Defensive style and nonmagical plate armor, you'll be in excellent shape through epic levels. If you have just a +1 armor, you won't need any other defensive abilities.


My question is: what the advantage of using versatile weapon since duelist can have more base damage (3-10 versus 1-10) and can have better AC? :smallannoyed:
The damage difference doesn't lie in the span, but the averages. The average roll of a d8 is 4.5. the +2 from duelist makes it an average of 6.5. A longsword-wielding Great Weapon Fighter deals an average of 6.3 damage, nearly identical, and he has a free hand to use grappling techniques/spells.

The damage output is nearly identical while the shield-wielder has much stronger defenses. This is one of the few times that D&D mirrors reality. If the +2 AC is important to you, then let your DM know and he might throw a Ring of Protection your way.

If you're going for pure attack power, use a greatsword with GWF is still viable (average damage of 8.33 compared to Duelist's 6.5) and flavor it as a katana or no-dachi.

So, yeah, versatile wepons are sub-optimal, but they're perfectly fine. Over the course of a game, the single point of damage you miss out on over dueling doesn't matter.


I think that's kinda the point. Of course Samurai didn't use shields. They also didn't use their off-hand to grapple, as far as I'm aware.
They absolutely did use their offhand to grapple. I am not aware of a single martial heritage that didn't use grapples, punches, and throws. Melee combat is a fluid art that involves taking advantage of any edge you can eke out over your opponent. No one in real combat hampers themselves in any way without being completely certain of the outcome.


Wasn't it more of a "honourable vs. chicken" thing? I.e. "hiding behind a shield" would have been considered cowardly? After all, for most of history, European shields were also mostly made of wood and organic matter (hide or stretched intestine), except for the boss. And I reckon the boss was mostly made of simple iron, not steel.
Samurai didn't use shields because their martial techniques come from their origin as mounted warriors utilizing two-handed weapons such as longbows and polearms. Katanas, when they were used in actual warfare, were sidearms. They were tools of last resort that people pulled out when their bows and naginatas weren't usable, so they were designed for use with both hands and not shields.

[ZenBear]

Just noticed you missed the spell Warding Wind from EE. What are your thoughts on taking it for an EK? The important bits being 10ft aura of rough terrain and disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks, at you and from you.

[EvilAnagram]

Just noticed you missed the spell Warding Wind from EE. What are your thoughts on taking it for an EK? The important bits being 10ft aura of rough terrain and disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks, at you and from you.

It's not a Wizard spell, so it's unavailable to the Eldritch Knight.

It's very good for a Fighter-Sorcerer multiclass, though.

[ZenBear]

It's not a Wizard spell, so it's unavailable to the Eldritch Knight.

It's very good for a Fighter-Sorcerer multiclass, though.

Ah balls that sucks. Maybe I can sneak it by my DM though... :smallwink::smalltongue:

[EvilAnagram]

Ah balls that sucks. Maybe I can sneak it by my DM though... :smallwink::smalltongue:

Can't hurt to ask.

[Malifice]

I still dont get why that Samurai guy doesnt just refluff the greatsword to a katana. Its a sword that he has learnt to use two handed and deals 2d6 damage.

Take GWM to represent his ability to land devestating strikes with the Katana.

Done.

[xanderh]

I still dont get why that Samurai guy doesnt just refluff the greatsword to a katana. Its a sword that he has learnt to use two handed and deals 2d6 damage.

Take GWM to represent his ability to land devestating strikes with the Katana.

Done.

The katana would be a longsword. I could see a greatsword being refluffed to a nodachi, but not a katana. It's just too small. Greatswords were about the size of the wielder, while the katana is even shorter than a longsword.

[Oramac]

1) For the Hawkeye build, Martial Adept feels like a wasted feat: The Battlemaster can already pick his favored maneuvers from level 3, and eventually they will have so many that the feat will feel wasted.

I'm currently playing a modified Hawkeye build (Fighter 11 / Rogue 2) and I can say with certainty that the extra Superiority Die is incredibly useful. I might go so far as to say mandatory.

Also, the 2 levels of Rogue is amazing as well. Cunning Action and Sneak Attack add a ton to the build. And as I write this, I realize I totally forgot to add Sneak Attack to anything at all last time I played. Dammit.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm currently playing a modified Hawkeye build (Fighter 11 / Rogue 2) and I can say with certainty that the extra Superiority Die is incredibly useful. I might go so far as to say mandatory.

Also, the 2 levels of Rogue is amazing as well. Cunning Action and Sneak Attack add a ton to the build. And as I write this, I realize I totally forgot to add Sneak Attack to anything at all last time I played. Dammit.

Honestly, another level of Rogue is probably worthwhile if you take the Assassin archetype. It won't always come into play, but occasionally surprising someone with the extra 2d6 Sneak Attack dice and the Superiority die is totally worthwhile.

On a surprise, there's an average of 38 damage with the longbow.

[Oramac]

Honestly, another level of Rogue is probably worthwhile if you take the Assassin archetype. It won't always come into play, but occasionally surprising someone with the extra 2d6 Sneak Attack dice and the Superiority die is totally worthwhile.

On a surprise, there's an average of 38 damage with the longbow.

The 2d6 sneak attack would be nice. Assassinate, not so much. Mainly because my luck rolling initiative is horrid. Seriously, I don't think I've ever rolled higher than a 5 on initiative, on any character. haha.

I'll probably pick up the level anyway. That's a good point. Thanks!

[Malifice]

The katana would be a longsword. I could see a greatsword being refluffed to a nodachi, but not a katana. It's just too small. Greatswords were about the size of the wielder, while the katana is even shorter than a longsword.

Refluff it. Done. Katanas are two handed swords IRL anyway (try Kendo, youll see). Its one of the reasons why Samurai didnt use shields. You need two hands to weild one properly.

Its a sword, that is wielded in two hands. It deals 2d6 damage 'because katana' but 'you need extreme skill to wield one in a single hand effectively''.

Only a jerk DM would say no.

Monks are refluffing shortswords as katanas, nine ring broadswords, or jians, refluffing clubs as tonfas, nunchucks and tetsuo's, and spears as lajatangs, kyetsu soge, kusri gamas and all sorts of whacky stuff by RAW.

It changes nothing. Handwave it and move on.

[xanderh]

Refluff it. Done. Katanas are two handed swords IRL anyway (try Kendo, youll see). Its one of the reasons why Samurai didnt use shields. You need two hands to weild one properly.

Its a sword, that is wielded in two hands. It deals 2d6 damage 'because katana' but 'you need extreme skill to wield one in a single hand effectively''.

Only a jerk DM would say no.

Monks are refluffing shortswords as katanas, nine ring broadswords, or jians, refluffing clubs as tonfas, nunchucks and tetsuo's, and spears as lajatangs, kyetsu soge, kusri gamas and all sorts of whacky stuff by RAW.

It changes nothing. Handwave it and move on.

That's nice, being called a jerk because I like it when refluffing makes sense.
IRL, you need two hands to wield a longsword properly as well. A longsword is not a weapon you could effectively wield in one hand.

When refluffing, I require that the new fluff makes sense with the mechanics. Refluffing a greatsword as a katana absolutely does not make sense to me. The smallest sword I can see as a greatsword would be a scottish claymore (the two-handed sword, not the basket-hilted broadsword).
The katana has similar cutting power to the European longsword. It is certainly easier to cut with because of the rigidity of the blade, but if you're skilled, the cutting power is about the same. The same cut with either blade is going to do about the same damage to whatever is hit.

In terms of being wielded in one hand, the katana is roughly as easy to wield one-handed as a European longsword. In fact, it weighs almost exactly the same as a European arming sword, an exclusively one-handed weapon. But because of a point of balance further up the blade compared to European swords, it's roughly equivalent to the longsword in terms of ease of one-handed use.

The katana is not a greatsword. A greatsword is a weapon designed exclusively for use in war situations, and is too cumbersome to be carried/worn outside of combat. The katana was a side-arm. Something you carried in civilian contexts, and occasionally as a secondary weapon to your primary war weapon, like a greatsword or a pole-weapon. The greatsword in D&D is a weapon that is so heavy that you absolutely can not wield it effectively in one hand, no matter how much training you've had. In terms of mechanics, it is 100 % impossible to wield a greatsword in one hand. A katana can, with training, be wielded effectively in one hand. This is not true of any European greatswords, but just so happens to be true of the European longsword.
If you want a Japanese weapon that fits the role of greatsword, I've already given you one: the nodachi. The nodachi was an exclusively two-handed sword purpose-built for war. Fluff-wise, it fits the greatsword perfectly. And it was used by samurai, so it also fits the fluff of a samurai.
If you want to use a katana, use the stats for the longsword. From what I've been able to find out, historical japanese fighting manuals do depict grappling moves, so use the versatile feature of the longsword/katana to use the sword while grappling. For the katana, the longsword stats just make the most sense.

Also, I just want to mention, Kendo is not accurate to historical japanese swordsmanship. Just like pretty much all other martial arts, it has evolved over time. Just like how modern sportsfencing is nothing like historical european martial arts.

[Malifice]

That's nice, being called a jerk because I like it when refluffing makes sense.
IRL, you need two hands to wield a longsword properly as well. A longsword is not a weapon you could effectively wield in one hand.

When refluffing, I require that the new fluff makes sense with the mechanics. Refluffing a greatsword as a katana absolutely does not make sense to me. The smallest sword I can see as a greatsword would be a scottish claymore (the two-handed sword, not the basket-hilted broadsword).
The katana has similar cutting power to the European longsword. It is certainly easier to cut with because of the rigidity of the blade, but if you're skilled, the cutting power is about the same. The same cut with either blade is going to do about the same damage to whatever is hit.

In terms of being wielded in one hand, the katana is roughly as easy to wield one-handed as a European longsword. In fact, it weighs almost exactly the same as a European arming sword, an exclusively one-handed weapon. But because of a point of balance further up the blade compared to European swords, it's roughly equivalent to the longsword in terms of ease of one-handed use.

The katana is not a greatsword. A greatsword is a weapon designed exclusively for use in war situations, and is too cumbersome to be carried/worn outside of combat. The katana was a side-arm. Something you carried in civilian contexts, and occasionally as a secondary weapon to your primary war weapon, like a greatsword or a pole-weapon. The greatsword in D&D is a weapon that is so heavy that you absolutely can not wield it effectively in one hand, no matter how much training you've had. In terms of mechanics, it is 100 % impossible to wield a greatsword in one hand. A katana can, with training, be wielded effectively in one hand. This is not true of any European greatswords, but just so happens to be true of the European longsword.
If you want a Japanese weapon that fits the role of greatsword, I've already given you one: the nodachi. The nodachi was an exclusively two-handed sword purpose-built for war. Fluff-wise, it fits the greatsword perfectly. And it was used by samurai, so it also fits the fluff of a samurai.
If you want to use a katana, use the stats for the longsword. From what I've been able to find out, historical japanese fighting manuals do depict grappling moves, so use the versatile feature of the longsword/katana to use the sword while grappling. For the katana, the longsword stats just make the most sense.

Also, I just want to mention, Kendo is not accurate to historical japanese swordsmanship. Just like pretty much all other martial arts, it has evolved over time. Just like how modern sportsfencing is nothing like historical european martial arts.

So for zero mechancial reason, you would deny a player a cool concept? In a game that expressly lets a Monk refluff a spear as a length of chain with a spike on the end, or as a sickle bladed lajatang, or a shortsword as a jian?

Yeah, pass. Its your game though man.

I would. So would most DMs who see nothing wrong with encouraging and facilitating player concepts. I allowed a 'kensai' in my games. He refluffed the spear to a Katana. I allowed him to change the damage type from (1d6/1d8 versatile) piercing to (1d6/1d8 versatile) slashing. No biggie - same damage as a staff, just a different damage type. Nothing broken, and the character is playing what he wanted.

Same deal with the Sorlock in another campaign. The DM changed the fluff of 'dragon blood' to 'fiend blood'. Same abilities, different fluff.

Id struggle to play in a game where 'the DMs sense of simulationism' is so inflexible to deny a character a cool concept purely on the grounds of fluff.

If it offends you that much, his katana is quite heavy for a katana, being 'made out of a strange steel from a fallen meteor and folded a thousand times under the sacred waterfall by the Yuri of the greatest swordsmith in Kara Tur'. Thats what makes it heavier, increasing its cutting power, but requiring two hands.

Players happy, you have a story hook as DM, nothing is broken and your sense of simulationism isnt offended. Its a win/ win/ win/ win.

[xanderh]

So for zero mechancial reason, you would deny a player a cool concept? In a game that expressly lets a Monk refluff a spear as a length of chain with a spike on the end, or as a sickle bladed lajatang, or a shortsword as a jian?

Yeah, pass. Its your game though man.

I would. So would most DMs who see nothing wrong with encouraging and facilitating player concepts. I allowed a 'kensai' in my games. He refluffed the spear to a Katana. I allowed him to change the damage type from (1d6/1d8 versatile) piercing to (1d6/1d8 versatile) slashing. No biggie - same damage as a staff, just a different damage type. Nothing broken, and the character is playing what he wanted.

Same deal with the Sorlock in another campaign. The DM changed the fluff of 'dragon blood' to 'fiend blood'. Same abilities, different fluff.

Id struggle to play in a game where 'the DMs sense of simulationism' is so inflexible to deny a character a cool concept purely on the grounds of fluff.

If it offends you that much, his katana is quite heavy for a katana, being 'made out of a strange steel from a fallen meteor and folded a thousand times under the sacred waterfall by the Yuri of the greatest swordsmith in Kara Tur'. Thats what makes it heavier, increasing its cutting power, but requiring two hands.

Players happy, you have a story hook as DM, nothing is broken and your sense of simulationism isnt offended. Its a win/ win/ win/ win.

What I don't get is why you don't just fluff it as a nodachi, though. It fits way better in terms of mechanics, and still fits the fluff of a samurai with a Japanese sword.
If I even allowed a japanese styled character (unlikely to fit the theme of the majority of my campaigns), I would let them choose between a nodachi and greatsword stats, or a katana and longsword stats. Because that's just what makes sense.
And using heavier steel would be a stupid thing to do. Adding more steel and making it longer increases the weight and cutting power, while also increasing the reach. Unless the steel has some other properties (ignoring resistance to non-magical weapons, for example), the swordsmith would be an idiot for making a blade out of heavier metal when he can increase the length of the blade and have the same weight.

And as for the examples you provided: The sorlock makes perfect sense to me. No issues there. Fiendish blood could give those benefits. The chain with a spike on the end and the lajatang make sense for the spear mechanics, and the jian ranges from shortsword to arming sword, from what I can tell. Those all make perfect sense.
But taking a katana (which is essentially a Japanese longsword) and giving it the stats of a greatsword, which is much larger and more unwieldy and transfers a lot more force when hitting the target, just doesn't make sense to me. The katana is a Japanese longsword. Give it the longsword stats. The Japanese version of the greatsword is the nodachi. If a player in my campaigns want to play a samurai and use GWM, they get a nodachi, or they choose to use a japanese pole-weapon instead. It's that simple.

And by the way, I do allow my players to refluff as much as they want to, as long as it makes sense. One of my players wanted to use kamas on his monk. So he asked if he could rename the shortsword to kama, and I of course allowed it, because it makes sense. But the katana being a greatsword just doesn't.

[SharkForce]

Honestly, another level of Rogue is probably worthwhile if you take the Assassin archetype. It won't always come into play, but occasionally surprising someone with the extra 2d6 Sneak Attack dice and the Superiority die is totally worthwhile.

On a surprise, there's an average of 38 damage with the longbow.

honestly, I'd just keep going rogue. fighter 11/rogue 9 has plenty to offer. imo, far more than more fighter levels, at any rate (or does the hawkeye build go into ranger or something?)

[EvilAnagram]

honestly, I'd just keep going rogue. fighter 11/rogue 9 has plenty to offer. imo, far more than more fighter levels, at any rate (or does the hawkeye build go into ranger or something?)
Hawkeye build is straight Battle Master, but improving Combat Superiority is worth the Fighter levels, as are the feats.

[Specter]

About the samurai thing:

1) Go Variant Human. Pick 'Dual Wielder' for your first feat.
2) Pick TWF or Defense for the Fighting Style.
3) Use the katana (longsword) in one hand, and the wakizashi (shortsword) in the other.
4) Be this guy:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ae/67/d3/ae67d34dadbab523782c9dd7b5ace903.jpg
5) Grab the Battlemaster archetype for tactical maneuvers and, more importantly, calligraphy.
6) Profit.

[Citan]

Refluff it. Done. Katanas are two handed swords IRL anyway (try Kendo, youll see). Its one of the reasons why Samurai didnt use shields. You need two hands to weild one properly.

Its a sword, that is wielded in two hands. It deals 2d6 damage 'because katana' but 'you need extreme skill to wield one in a single hand effectively''.

Only a jerk DM would say no.

Monks are refluffing shortswords as katanas, nine ring broadswords, or jians, refluffing clubs as tonfas, nunchucks and tetsuo's, and spears as lajatangs, kyetsu soge, kusri gamas and all sorts of whacky stuff by RAW.

It changes nothing. Handwave it and move on.
Hey. :)
Sorry to jump into the discussion, but I agree with Xanderh on this one.
Katana DOES NOT have to be wielded two-handed.
It so happens that all the main movements (the basic movements) are learnt like this, but there are plenty of schools that also teach one-handed moves.

Katana's length, weight and manoeuverability is between a sword and longsword. Making it a heavy and cumbersome weapon is, like, breaking respect for samuraïs. :)
So in D&d, a katana can only be a longsword refluffed. And I don't see how that could be a problem for the player.

If he really wanted it for the mechanic, he just has to say he will wield a nodachi. This one is perfectly suited as a refluffed greatsword, and still a "japanese, curved sword".
If he really wanted it for the fluff, he just has to go one-handed fighting or dual-wielding as intelligently suggested Specter just above. :)

Refluffing ANY weapon into ANY weapon without any reference would be like opening a Pandora's Box for later games with players. Besides, there are HUNDREDS of weapon that have been invented throughout the ages (we humans love to kill ourselves after all ^^), so there will always be one that can match D&d mechanics, character concept and historic reality at the same time. :)
For this reason, frankly, as a DM, I'd say "deal with it" to the player without any hesitation, unless he really comes with the one idea that matches no weapon and designed a very impressive/original fluff to go with.

[Mervold]

Defense is great for tanks, and you can be a great tank. It uses your only reaction for something totally unremarkable. This should be Red if you have Sentinel, and Black otherwise.



Remarkable Athlete: A more limited version of Jack of All Trades. It can come in handy. It's worth noting that some spell effects will require these ability checks to escape them.You add this to Initiative, making this Blue in my opinion.



Precision Attack: You can decide to pop this Super die after you make the attack roll, which is exactly what you want with that.I would argue that Precision Attack is at least Sky Blue, as it is the most damaging maneuver in the game. A Trip Attack would give you 1d8 at the beginning, and 1d12 at the end, but Precision Attack gives you at least 1d6+3, and possibly 2d6+5+10 (Str 20, Greatsword with GWM). For Sharpshooters and GWM users it is beyond that, same for Sentinels, but unfortunately you do not use gold coloring.



Bard: Become a skill monkey! With songs! And Magic! If you have Charisma, a Valor Bard makes a solid multiclass opportunity.A Valor Bard would gain nothing from the Martial Weapons and Medium Armor proficiency, nor the Extra Attack. Battle Magic is the first useful feature, and it is really far away. In my opinion if you multiclass to Bard, you should go Lore, it does not give you mostly wasted duplicates.
So Lore Blue, Valor Purple.


Great guide otherwise.

[SharkForce]

It uses your only reaction for something totally unremarkable. This should be Red if you have Sentinel, and Black otherwise.

You add this to Initiative, making this Blue in my opinion.

I would argue that Precision Attack is at least Sky Blue, as it is the most damaging maneuver in the game. A Trip Attack would give you 1d8 at the beginning, and 1d12 at the end, but Precision Attack gives you at least 1d6+3, and possibly 2d6+5+10 (Str 20, Greatsword with GWM). For Sharpshooters and GWM users it is beyond that, same for Sentinels, but unfortunately you do not use gold coloring.

A Valor Bard would gain nothing from the Martial Weapons and Medium Armor proficiency, nor the Extra Attack. Battle Magic is the first useful feature, and it is really far away. In my opinion if you multiclass to Bard, you should go Lore, it does not give you mostly wasted duplicates.
So Lore Blue, Valor Purple.


Great guide otherwise.

in melee, trip does more damage if it works because you get advantage on every attack, which is better than a 1d8 or even 1d12 on a single attack.

[Mervold]

in melee, trip does more damage if it works because you get advantage on every attack, which is better than a 1d8 or even 1d12 on a single attack.In a vacuum or a one-man-party, yes.
In any decent group your party members provide you advantage, so everything that gives you a bonus that is not advantage, is very valuable. This is why Bless is great, just like Sacred Weapon.

At least in 3 of the 4 games I play in Advantage is near constant, so I consider it baseline. In the fourth game everyone except me is a newbie, but they will learn :smallsmile:

[PoeticDwarf]

The 2d6 sneak attack would be nice. Assassinate, not so much. Mainly because my luck rolling initiative is horrid. Seriously, I don't think I've ever rolled higher than a 5 on initiative, on any character. haha.

I'll probably pick up the level anyway. That's a good point. Thanks!

If there's nothing wrong with the die you will probably roll your next initiative roll higher than 5. So assassinate is as good for you.

[Oramac]

in melee, trip does more damage if it works because you get advantage on every attack, which is better than a 1d8 or even 1d12 on a single attack.

It's really a question of consistency. Advantage is mathematically equal to about +5 to your roll. 1d8 averages to 4.5, and 1d12 averages to 6.5.

So 1d12 averages better than advantage, but is less consistent, as you could get several rolls less than 5, which would be worse than having advantage against a prone enemy.

Ideally, you would use Precision Attack on the shove roll (since it is still considered an attack), to knock the enemy prone, then use advantage on the subsequent attacks when the enemy is already prone.

[SharkForce]

In a vacuum or a one-man-party, yes.
In any decent group your party members provide you advantage, so everything that gives you a bonus that is not advantage, is very valuable. This is why Bless is great, just like Sacred Weapon.

At least in 3 of the 4 games I play in Advantage is near constant, so I consider it baseline. In the fourth game everyone except me is a newbie, but they will learn :smallsmile:

well, if you consider it the part of everyone else to give you advantage on checks but don't consider it your own part to give them advantage, there's something wrong. tripping an enemy gets more valuable with more party members generally speaking (since that means more people who can enjoy an enemy that can't reach them due to reduced movement, and more people to enjoy advantage to hit).


It's really a question of consistency. Advantage is mathematically equal to about +5 to your roll. 1d8 averages to 4.5, and 1d12 averages to 6.5.

So 1d12 averages better than advantage, but is less consistent, as you could get several rolls less than 5, which would be worse than having advantage against a prone enemy.

Ideally, you would use Precision Attack on the shove roll (since it is still considered an attack), to knock the enemy prone, then use advantage on the subsequent attacks when the enemy is already prone.

shoving may or may not be an attack (that isn't clear - it is definitely an action you can take in place of a melee attack, in any event), but it isn't a weapon attack roll. it is an ability check, which is something completely different.

[Oramac]

shoving may or may not be an attack (that isn't clear - it is definitely an action you can take in place of a melee attack, in any event), but it isn't a weapon attack roll. it is an ability check, which is something completely different.

It's an attack. Per RAW, straight out of the PHB (my emphasis added):


Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

[Mervold]

well, if you consider it the part of everyone else to give you advantage on checks but don't consider it your own part to give them advantage, there's something wrong.
tripping an enemy gets more valuable with more party members generally speaking (since that means more people who can enjoy an enemy that can't reach them due to reduced movement, and more people to enjoy advantage to hit).You are either the Striker, or the Defender, meaning it is not your job. So yes, if the Bard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Wizard is not giving you advantage something is indeed wrong, and it is them.
Unless you use S&B, and have Shield Master. Than it is your job to prone, but in this case you need Trip Attack even less.
Also do not forget that proning hurts the Archer/Warlock, so it is better if others provide other kind of Advantage.

I am not saying Trip Attack is bad, but unless your party is completely messed up, Precision Strike is better.

[Giant2005]

This is a pretty good guide - it is rare to read a guide which I agree with on so many levels. There are a couple of things that I believe you have undervalued though.

First up is Survivor. That should absolutely be light blue - if it didn't come so late in the game it would easily be the best ability among all of the classes, not just the Fighter. Considering this guide doesn't seem to be detracting from abilities on the basis of them coming in late, it shouldn't be valued less than it deserves independent of level.
A Defensive (SnB Defense Fighting Style) Fighter with that ability can wade into a literal army of low level mobs without ever facing danger due to his regen surpassing the average incoming damage. People talk about the level 20 Moon Druid's immortality but even the Druid would be destroyed in only a round or two under those conditions.
Even without cheesing or facing unusual circumstances the ability is pretty amazing. It means that you will be starting every encounter with at least half hit points. After a marathon of a day where the final encounter is balanced around the players being on their last legs, the fact that the Champion isn't in the expected weakened state turns what is designed to be an otherwise challenging experience into something relatively trivial.

The other undervalued aspect is Shield Master. Shield Master's bonus action shove increases a SnB Fighter's average DPR by a far larger percentile than any of the other feats do for whatever type of Fighter is picking them up. Not only that, but it increases the rest of the party's damage by an equal ratio, as well as offers defensive benefits.
A feat that offers defensive benefits as well as offensive benefits that are far in excess of any other feat cannot be considered less than a feat that offers nothing but offensive benefits that pale in comparison to those offered by said feat.

[EvilAnagram]

It uses your only reaction for something totally unremarkable. This should be Red if you have Sentinel, and Black otherwise.
You're confusing Defense with Protection. Defense is a static bonus to your AC.


You add this to Initiative, making this Blue in my opinion.
Fair.


I would argue that Precision Attack is at least Sky Blue, as it is the most damaging maneuver in the game. A Trip Attack would give you 1d8 at the beginning, and 1d12 at the end, but Precision Attack gives you at least 1d6+3, and possibly 2d6+5+10 (Str 20, Greatsword with GWM). For Sharpshooters and GWM users it is beyond that, same for Sentinels, but unfortunately you do not use gold coloring.
Trip Attack adds damage on top of giving you and your melee allies all advantage on hitting it until its turn. It's essentially a +5 to everyone's attack, on top of dealing bonus damage. Precision Attack makes a single attack more likely to hit. It's helpful, but it's not as exploitable as Trip.


A Valor Bard would gain nothing from the Martial Weapons and Medium Armor proficiency, nor the Extra Attack. Battle Magic is the first useful feature, and it is really far away. In my opinion if you multiclass to Bard, you should go Lore, it does not give you mostly wasted duplicates.
So Lore Blue, Valor Purple.


Also fair.

[georgie_leech]

It uses your only reaction for something totally unremarkable. This should be Red if you have Sentinel, and Black otherwise.

Staying away from the other stuff because it's largely opinion, but you're incorrect here. Defensive Fighting Style just adds 1 to your AC when wearing armor passively. You might be thinking of Protection.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Posting from mobile takes a while.

[EvilAnagram]

snip
I think you are totally correct of Shield Master, but I don't think Survivor provides enough healing to be sky-blue.

[Addaran]

You are either the Striker, or the Defender, meaning it is not your job. So yes, if the Bard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Wizard is not giving you advantage something is indeed wrong, and it is them.
Unless you use S&B, and have Shield Master. Than it is your job to prone, but in this case you need Trip Attack even less.
Also do not forget that proning hurts the Archer/Warlock, so it is better if others provide other kind of Advantage.

I am not saying Trip Attack is bad, but unless your party is completely messed up, Precision Strike is better.

Seems you suffer from the MMO holy trinity mentality, (DPS-Tank-healer) where everyone need a specific defined role and you fight stupid enemies. That's not the case for D&D.

A fighter that expect another player to give him advantage to be effective is a weak dependant fighter IMO.

The other characters have better things to do then just help and the other ways to give advantage aren't 100% reliable. The caster might need his concentration for something better or lose it cause of attacks. He might be saving his spells for massive aoe. This also doesn't take into account that the characters might be separated, some might be unconscious/disabled or that there is a lot of enemies and each have to fend for themselves.

If you're in a melee heavy team, you tripping means everyone have advantage. (they can even use GWM too)
If you're in a ranged heavy team, everyone is safe from that enemy.

[Giant2005]

I think you are totally correct of Shield Master, but I don't think Survivor provides enough healing to be sky-blue.

The amount of healing it offers is irrelevant when considering the advantage of beginning each battle with at least half health regardless of what came before it, so I assume your objection is regarding not its post-battle benefits but those bestowed during battle.
These numbers might help put it in perspective.
Combined with Heavy Armor Master, Plate Armor, Defense Fighting Style, and a Shield, those 10 points of regeneration are enough for a Champion to wade into 235 Zombies and not suffer enough damage to outlast that regen. That is insane.
If you want something more level appropriate, the Champion can face 2 Ice Devils (CR 14) simultaneously and only suffer an average of 2.595 damage per round beyond what his healing recovers.

10 hit points per round might not sound like much, but when you magnify their value by combining them with an array of other defenses, they quickly amount to something game-breakingly powerful.

[EvilAnagram]

The amount of healing it offers is irrelevant when considering the advantage of beginning each battle with at least half health regardless of what came before it, so I assume your objection is regarding not its post-battle benefits but those bestowed during battle.
These numbers might help put it in perspective.
Combined with Heavy Armor Master, Plate Armor, Defense Fighting Style, and a Shield, those 10 points of regeneration are enough for a Champion to wade into 235 Zombies and not suffer enough damage to outlast that regen. That is insane.
If you want something more level appropriate, the Champion can face 2 Ice Devils (CR 14) simultaneously and only suffer an average of 2.595 damage per round beyond what his healing recovers.

10 hit points per round might not sound like much, but when you magnify their value by combining them with an array of other defenses, they quickly amount to something game-breakingly powerful.

You're not wrong on any of that, but I still don't think that Survivor should be sky-blue. I tend to be very sparing with sky-blue ratings, and I think to receive one a feature should meet one of these criteria:


It does something better than anything comparable to it. For example, Fighters have more Extra Attacks than anyone else. Survivor is very nice, but it's not the very best defensive buff you can get.
It opens up further powerful options. For example, War Magic allows numerous powerful combinations, and Tripping Attack allows for both offensive and defensive strategies for the whole party. Survivor does not increase the options available to you.
It provides so many benefits for its cost that it cannot receive any other rating. Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is a good example of this: for a single first level spell slot you provide advantage to melee attackers, cause action denial, and prevent opportunity attacks. Survivor has the one benefit.


Again, Survivor or is awesome. In fact, I'd like to post that unkillable build in the last section with due credit to you if that's alright.

Still, as powerful as it is, I don't know that it's sky-blue.

[Citan]

In a vacuum or a one-man-party, yes.
In any decent group your party members provide you advantage, so everything that gives you a bonus that is not advantage, is very valuable. This is why Bless is great, just like Sacred Weapon.

At least in 3 of the 4 games I play in Advantage is near constant, so I consider it baseline. In the fourth game everyone except me is a newbie, but they will learn :smallsmile:


You are either the Striker, or the Defender, meaning it is not your job. So yes, if the Bard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Wizard is not giving you advantage something is indeed wrong, and it is them.
Unless you use S&B, and have Shield Master. Than it is your job to prone, but in this case you need Trip Attack even less.
Also do not forget that proning hurts the Archer/Warlock, so it is better if others provide other kind of Advantage.

I am not saying Trip Attack is bad, but unless your party is completely messed up, Precision Strike is better.
It's very funny how you point a point in a total vacuum and then critics other for supposedly doing the same.

Never seen someone as "arrogant" when playing a Fighter in a party.
First off, you generalize from your party, but not every party has the required resources to focus on providing THE Fighter consistant advantage.
Second, it so happens that **** happens, so the Cleric/Paladin/whatever may very well have much better to do with their concentration than keep a Bless or similar.
Finally, in a melee-heavy party, Trip attack WILL be better than Precision, precisely because it makes you enable advantage for every pal for at least a turn without requiring a more precious (long-rest) resource from a caster (related to previous point).

So... You just cannot plainly say "one is overall better than the other" because it depends far too much on party composition and roles.

[CrackedChair]

Hey, thanks for the Guide, EvilAnagram! Love to see more guide from you!

[Giant2005]

You're not wrong on any of that, but I still don't think that Survivor should be sky-blue. I tend to be very sparing with sky-blue ratings, and I think to receive one a feature should meet one of these criteria:


It does something better than anything comparable to it. For example, Fighters have more Extra Attacks than anyone else. Survivor is very nice, but it's not the very best defensive buff you can get.
It opens up further powerful options. For example, War Magic allows numerous powerful combinations, and Tripping Attack allows for both offensive and defensive strategies for the whole party. Survivor does not increase the options available to you.
It provides so many benefits for its cost that it cannot receive any other rating. Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is a good example of this: for a single first level spell slot you provide advantage to melee attackers, cause action denial, and prevent opportunity attacks. Survivor has the one benefit.


Again, Survivor or is awesome. In fact, I'd like to post that unkillable build in the last section with due credit to you if that's alright.

Still, as powerful as it is, I don't know that it's sky-blue.

Fair enough. Personally I think it qualifies on both of those first two points, but it is your guide so your opinion takes precedence, and maybe I am just more generous with what constitutes being sky blue (although I think that ability is more powerful than anything else a Fighter can lay claim to, so that really shouldn't be a factor).


It does something better than anything comparable to it. For example, Fighters have more Extra Attacks than anyone else. Survivor is very nice, but it's not the very best defensive buff you can get.
It really is the best defensive buff you can get.
I mean sure it requires other great defensive buffs to really shine, but it is the only buff in the game that gives one the power to tank infinitely. You could stack a bunch of other defensive buffs together to become extremely tanky but you will eventually be whittled down. You could achieve similar levels of healing each round with something like Aura of Vitality, but eventually that would falter too. Survivor is the only buff in the game that can make you situationally immortal against all odds.
When it comes to evaluating the superiority of defensive buffs, it is hard to make a compelling argument that something is superior to functional immortality.


It opens up further powerful options. For example, War Magic allows numerous powerful combinations, and Tripping Attack allows for both offensive and defensive strategies for the whole party. Survivor does not increase the options available to you.
That immortality combination should qualify on these grounds also, and probably more-so than some of the examples you have given.
War Magic is great and certainly does share some potent synergy with other abilities, but that combination isn't nearly as balance-altering as what can be achieved with Survivor.
The best abuse of War Magic is EK 7/Warlock 2/Rogue 11 for full EB damage followed by a sneak attack enhanced crossbow shot. That combination can pull some tremendous damage (unbuffed 57.025 aDPR against AC 18) but the damage isn't so huge that it is defining. For example, a straight Barbarian can pull off 58.005 aDPR against that same AC by using Frenzy, Rage, and Reckless Attack.
An ability like Survivor that is the key to bringing to life balance-altering combinations should be considered higher than one that when exploited to its fullest is still pretty comparable to abilities that come just from playing a class as it is designed, with no creativity whatsoever.

[SharkForce]

the problem is that at level 18, being mostly immune to a large number of weaklings is a lot less valuable than it would have been when you were low level. at level 18, most people should be immune to that horde of zombies, in some form or another. the druid may not be able to tank them, per se, but a single entangle spell will very quickly cut the number of zombies causing problems down to a handful, and suddenly that level 20 moon druid is looking just fine against the horde. simply flying and using moonbeam or call lightning will clear the zombies out quick, too, which is as good or better than simply being able to tank them (particularly if they just all attempt to grab you and drag you out of your location so they can shamble past... you can't grapple a moonbeam, or shove your way past a wall of force, or the intangible spirit guardians surrounding a cleric).

simply put, the ability to not get killed by large numbers of what amount to road bumps is not a major ability at level 18. if you couldn't sneak past, or deal with large groups of trash mobs easily, or at least outrun them or something, i would say that indicates disappointment at level 18. quite the opposite of being a great accomplishment to be able to do it, by this time you should be able to deal with that horde of enemies, and being unable to do so is the anomaly.

[Saggo]

I mean sure it requires other great defensive buffs to really shine, but it is the only buff in the game that gives one the power to tank infinitely.

I think this is what keeps me from agreeing on the rating, since it takes a specific build to work like that.

[Mervold]

You're confusing Defense with Protection. Defense is a static bonus to your AC.I did confuse it, and I am deeply ashamed. :smallfrown:


First off, you generalize from your party, but not every party has the required resources to focus on providing THE Fighter consistant advantage.Never said they give YOU advantage. One of the reasons Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Blindness, Entangle, etc. are so superior to proning is that they benefit everyone, not only adjacent melee charcters.


Second, it so happens that **** happens, so the Cleric/Paladin/whatever may very well have much better to do with their concentration than keep a Bless or similar.Most guides you find online rate Bless Sky Blue or Gold, for good reason. Meaning that most of the time there is nothing better to do with concentraiton. But either way, what does this have to do with Trip/Precision Attack?


Finally, in a melee-heavy party, Trip attack WILL be better than Precision, precisely because it makes you enable advantage for every pal for at least a turn without requiring a more precious (long-rest) resource from a caster (related to previous point).In a melee-heavy party someone should have Shield Master, it has a much better chance of actually proning, and can be used more frequently.
"every pal for at least a turn" actually only the ones who come after you but before the enemy in the round.


So... You just cannot plainly say "one is overall better than the other" because it depends far too much on party composition and roles.Thank you, it was exactly my point. :smallsmile:
Right now Precision Attack is plainly rated lower than Trip Attack, even though Advantage is easy (Wolf Barbarian, spells), and proning is trivial (Shield Master, Moon Druid).

In my eyes everything that gives a bonus above Advantage is Golden, because Advantage is easy and common. In my experience there are far more parties where Advantage is handed out like candy, but YMMW. The GWM Fighter in my group rarely ever uses Trip Attack (only on crits), mostly it is Precision Attack.

However, I agree, in a party with more melee characters than ranged attackers, no Shield Master, no Wolf Barbarian and no Leader type caster, Trip Attack is much more useful than Precision Attack.

[EvilAnagram]

snip

Right now how to run a game that's very melee heavy. The Fighter is a Polearm Master, the Paladin has a greatsword, and The Valor Bard is more interested in Warcaster than Shield Master. A successful Trip Attack is probably the best way to increase the party's overall damage for an entire round. Sure, the Paladin could use Vow of Enmity, but that's once per rest. The Bard could use a spell, but my encounters are difficult enough that he's rather shy about tossing them around, and besides, that's a long rest resource.

Not every party treats character generation as a group optimization activity, and not every party has easy access to advantage.

Trip Attack is an excellent ability for a melee Fighter. Precision Attack boosts one attack roll. Trip Attack provides a boost to multiple attacks, plus a damage boost at the same resource cost. That makes it better.

[Mervold]

Right now how to run a game that's very melee heavy. The Fighter is a Polearm Master, the Paladin has a greatsword, and The Valor Bard is more interested in Warcaster than Shield Master. A successful Trip Attack is probably the best way to increase the party's overall damage for an entire round. Sure, the Paladin could use Vow of Enmity, but that's once per rest. The Bard could use a spell, but my encounters are difficult enough that he's rather shy about tossing them around, and besides, that's a long rest resource.

Not every party treats character generation as a group optimization activity, and not every party has easy access to advantage.

Trip Attack is an excellent ability for a melee Fighter. Precision Attack boosts one attack roll. Trip Attack provides a boost to multiple attacks, plus a damage boost at the same resource cost. That makes it better.

What level are you on? How many encounters do you have per day? How many short rests?
Faerie Fire is one of the strongest Advantage-granting spells in the game, most others provide a saving throw per round, this one only ends if you stop Concentration. With Warcaster you should have a fairly good chance to keep it up. Based on your classification of Valor Bard, I guess you are above level 3, that means at least 6 Faerie Fires per day. More than enough.

I know this brings us to party optimization territory, but how can you create such a group? What do you do in a narrow hallway? What do you do against a flying enemy?

[EvilAnagram]

What level are you on? How many encounters do you have per day? How many short rests?
Faerie Fire is one of the strongest Advantage-granting spells in the game, most others provide a saving throw per round, this one only ends if you stop Concentration. With Warcaster you should have a fairly good chance to keep it up. Based on your classification of Valor Bard, I guess you are above level 3, that means at least 6 Faerie Fires per day. More than enough.

I know this brings us to party optimization territory, but how can you create such a group? What do you do in a narrow hallway? What do you do against a flying enemy?

They're level six, they go through 5-7 encounters a day, and they need healing far too often to use Faerie Fire every combat. Besides that, the Bard enjoys more control spells than buffs.

As for party dynamics, small hallways are easy: the Bard has a magic weapon that gives him 10' reach, and the Fighter has 10' reach, so everyone can always attack. With flying enemies, they tend to have to think more creatively, though they all have ranged options (javelin, bow, Magic Initiate cantrip).

[Oramac]

It's important to remember that Fightering isn't just about Fightering with swords. Sometimes you have to Fighter with bows. Sometimes, you want to use that bow to maintain complete control over the battlefield. This is how you do that.

The core of this build is the use of Maneuvers to control the battlefield while you rain death upon your enemies. Your choice of Maneuvers is important.
Disarming Strike: Useful if your companion can kick the weapon away.
Goading Attack: If your enemy can't reach you, he'll just have disadvantage on his attacks.
Maneuvering Attack: Provide covering fire while your companion reaches safety.
Menacing Attack: The enemy can't move closer to you. Melee enemies can't hurt you at all.
Precision Attack: For when you just *have* to hit.
Pushing Attack: Knock someone off a cliff or keep them out of reach.
Trip Attack: For when you have melee allies.

Feat Selection
Crossbow Expert: Absolutely necessary for anyone hoping to use a crossbow as their primary weapon. Even longbow users might want this for the melee ranged attacks.
Martial Adept: Another chance to use a maneuver.
Sharpshooter: All archers should take this feat if they can.
Feats like Alert, Lucky, and Medium Armor Master are also welcome additions to this build, though less necessary than the three above.

Weapon Selection

Shortbow: The only reason to use the shortbow is being too small for a longbow.
Longbow: The obvious favorite in non-angry styles of bow.
Hand Crossbow: Depending on your reading of Crossbow Expert, it's either not bad, but not great or game-breakingly amazing. I'm not sure which side of this Crawdad is on.
Light Crossbow: About on par with the Longbow if you have Crossbow Expert. Otherwise, a poor choice.
Heavy Crossbow: Once again, this assumes Crossbow Expertise. If you have it, this works out extremely well.
Sling: The Sling is actually perfectly capable of fulfilling the requirements of use in this class. It just has such low damage.



Just some quick feedback on this build, having been TPK'd using it just last night. :P (admittedly, the groups tactics weren't ideal, but I still feel like the build has obvious strengths and weaknesses)

It excels against small groups of relatively powerful enemies (1-3 enemies), but is horrid against large groups of smaller enemies (4+ enemies).

First, we went against a Driad and a Vampire, and it worked incredibly well, using high mobility, sharpshooter, and Superiority Die to dominate the battle. I felt like a proverbial god of the battlefield.

Next fight was against one big S.O.B. and many smaller mobs. The utter lack of reliable AOE made it next to useless against the hordes of small mobs, and using superiority dice against them would have been a complete waste of resources. Even attacking the big baddie, I felt nearly useless in this battle, basically just making 3 attacks and trying to stay out of the way.

[Mervold]

The utter lack of reliable AOE made it next to useless against the hordes of small mobs, and using superiority dice against them would have been a complete waste of resources. Even attacking the big baddie, I felt nearly useless in this battle, basically just making 3 attacks and trying to stay out of the way.Level? Party compmosition?

[Oramac]

Level? Party compmosition?

Level 13 (BM Fighter 11 / Rogue 2)

I was commenting on that Fighter build specifically, rather than the group. The party was myself, a Paladin/Wizard, Life Cleric, and a Rogue/Warlock. There was supposed to be a Bard too, but that player couldn't make it.

The party comp is largely irrelevant to the observations I made about the build, however. They hold true for the build regardless of what the rest of the party has.

[EvilAnagram]

Just some quick feedback on this build, having been TPK'd using it just last night. :P (admittedly, the groups tactics weren't ideal, but I still feel like the build has obvious strengths and weaknesses)

It excels against small groups of relatively powerful enemies (1-3 enemies), but is horrid against large groups of smaller enemies (4+ enemies).

First, we went against a Driad and a Vampire, and it worked incredibly well, using high mobility, sharpshooter, and Superiority Die to dominate the battle. I felt like a proverbial god of the battlefield.

Next fight was against one big S.O.B. and many smaller mobs. The utter lack of reliable AOE made it next to useless against the hordes of small mobs, and using superiority dice against them would have been a complete waste of resources. Even attacking the big baddie, I felt nearly useless in this battle, basically just making 3 attacks and trying to stay out of the way.

Thanks for the observations. I think most Fighter builds are going to lag behind when it comes to large numbers of mooks. They're simply not built for it, so they need to rely on other classes for AoE.

Sorry about the TPK, though.

[Oramac]

Thanks for the observations. I think most Fighter builds are going to lag behind when it comes to large numbers of mooks. They're simply not built for it, so they need to rely on other classes for AoE.

The nature of the beast, I suppose. Just thought I'd give some feedback since I had a change to play it.

For what it's worth, overall, it was an incredibly fun build to play.


Sorry about the TPK, though.

Not your fault! As I said, our tactics weren't the best. Though without the Bard there it was well beyond a deadly encounter, so I'm not sure we ever really stood a chance.

[gfishfunk]

Not your fault! As I said, our tactics weren't the best. Though without the Bard there it was well beyond a deadly encounter, so I'm not sure we ever really stood a chance.

I suppose someone, somewhere, is smiling. I don't think I've every heard anyone say, "If only we had the Bard with us...."

[Mervold]

Seems you suffer from the MMO holy trinity mentality, (DPS-Tank-healer) where everyone need a specific defined role and you fight stupid enemies. That's not the case for D&D.Here the roles are not as well defined, but still quite visible, and the best way to build a capable party is to keep them in mind. The party is strongest if everyone knows their role, and acts accordingly. That is why we have 2 surgeons, 2 nurses and an anesthesiologist in a surgery instead of 5 generalist doctors. A good party is more than just the sum of its parts.

Last months in an organized play event the Bard provided Faerie Fire, the Cleric Blessed, and the fighters did around 50 HP damage per round each on level 6. One of them has SharpShooter and Crossbow expert, the other Polearm Master and GWM, both used Precision Attack if the Advantage and +1d4 was somehow still not enough. Both had Trip Attack, the Archer used it once to get one flying enemy in melee reach. A barbarian with Shield Master was also present, just in case. :smallcool:
If the casters did anything else with the concentration, the total party damage would have plummeted. If the enemy were prone, the Archer would had to shoot someone else. If everyone were melee, the flying enemies would have killed them all. The enemies does not have to act stupid for this to work,

Trip Attack is nice, I would encourage everyone to take it, mostly for control. But if that is the most reliable way to gain and grant advantage, something is serously missing in the party, mainly coherence.
That is not a group, just a collection of individuals.

[DeAnno]

Monster Hunter (https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/UA%20Gothic%20Characters.pdf) came out in the April UA and probably could stand to be mentioned here. It's similar to the Scout, but a bit more focused on combat. In particular the ability to add superiority dice to Int/Wis/Cha saving throws as a non-action is really good and worth pointing out: a Dex based Monster Hunter has no "weak" save. With Detect Magic and all the skills it gets Monster Hunter can make a good frontman/rogue substitute in a Dungeon too. Unlike the Scout it also has a "maneuver" that can add damage directly to an attack natively, even if it's not with a terribly good rider.

[Specter]

You might want to mention the Monster Hunter (http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/UA%20Gothic%20Characters.pdf) from Unearthed Arcana too. Came here looking for more info on it. The way I see it, it's a Battlemaster with more limited maneuvers, but more skills and a bit of warding magic.

[Klorox]

Very nice guide, but while you detailed the best maneuvers for the battle master, and the best spells for the eldritch knight, the section on optimizing the champion is blank. While all the champions abilities are passive, that doesn't meant there aren't better choices for these guys.

Half orc is an even better racial choice than usual; they're the only race with an added bonus from critical hits. Champions get more critical hits than anybody else.

The great weapon master feat grants an attack as a bonus action if a critical hit is made. Champions get more critical hits than anybody else.

The mounted combatant feat grants advantage on many attacks, which increases the chances of a critical hit.

The lucky feat increases the chance of a critical hit.

[Specter]

Rereading this guide, I find class features and feats need better explanation, especially working together. For example, Shield Master is better for Champions and than other people, since a prone enemy is much more likely to be critted. Great Weapon Master benefits greatly from the BM's Precision Strike, too, and EKs make great Mage Slayers for their defensive capabilities and easy movement. These are things the old-timers can think of, but newbs can't. Anyway, good job.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Guys, o-katana can be a greatsword? He's blade is 30cm taller than katana.

[xanderh]

Guys, o-katana can be a greatsword? He's blade is 30cm taller than katana.

Ask your GM. Most GMs would probably allow it, but to be sure, talk about it with your GM.

[EvilAnagram]

Guys, o-katana can be a greatsword? He's blade is 30cm taller than katana.

I would ask your DM, but that seems perfectly fine.

[Ryuu Hayato]

I'm the GM, but I always try to listen another people. Thank you guys for replying. :smallwink:

[Garwig]

First of all, thank you Evil for putting this guide (and all the others) together, it's great help for all people familiarizing themselves with 5e.

I'd like to propose a new build I call the Spearman.

Get the Tunnel Fighter fighting style from UA:Underdark, the Polearm Master feat, and run around with a glaive or halberd. This fighting style allows you to make opportunity attacks without expending your reaction. In other words, unlimited number of opportunity attacks in exchange for your bonus action. The feat allows you to make opportunity attacks against enemies who enter your reach. Obviously it only works if your turn is before the enemy closes to melee range, but it makes you incredibly good against hordes. Something the fighter usually lacks.
You can pair it up with Sentinel to literally build a wall of monsters who can't get close to you.
It gets even better if you are an EK and take the War Caster feat. Now you can Booming Blade everyone who enters your reach. In this case I don't recommend Sentinel, as the extra damage from BB will immediately go off if they continue to move to melee distance with you.


I haven't had the chance to playtest this guy, but I'm eager for your opinion.

Happy Holidays to all of you!

[xanderh]

First of all, thank you Evil for putting this guide (and all the others) together, it's great help for all people familiarizing themselves with 5e.

I'd like to propose a new build I call the Spearman.

Get the Tunnel Fighter fighting style from UA:Underdark, the Polearm Master feat, and run around with a glaive or halberd. This fighting style allows you to make opportunity attacks without expending your reaction. In other words, unlimited number of opportunity attacks in exchange for your bonus action. The feat allows you to make opportunity attacks against enemies who enter your reach. Obviously it only works if your turn is before the enemy closes to melee range, but it makes you incredibly good against hordes. Something the fighter usually lacks.
You can pair it up with Sentinel to literally build a wall of monsters who can't get close to you.
It gets even better if you are an EK and take the War Caster feat. Now you can Booming Blade everyone who enters your reach. In this case I don't recommend Sentinel, as the extra damage from BB will immediately go off if they continue to move to melee distance with you.


I haven't had the chance to playtest this guy, but I'm eager for your opinion.

Happy Holidays to all of you!

It's very strong, but I doubt you're going to get much mileage out of it. I don't know a single DM who would even consider sider letting you use tunnel Fighter.

[Saggo]

It gets even better if you are an EK and take the War Caster feat. Now you can Booming Blade everyone who enters your reach. In this case I don't recommend Sentinel, as the extra damage from BB will immediately go off if they continue to move to melee distance with you.


You'll need Spell Sniper as well to do that at reach range, Booming Blade only has a range of 5'.

[lonewulf]

First of all, thank you Evil for putting this guide (and all the others) together, it's great help for all people familiarizing themselves with 5e.

I'd like to propose a new build I call the Spearman.

Get the Tunnel Fighter fighting style from UA:Underdark, the Polearm Master feat, and run around with a glaive or halberd. This fighting style allows you to make opportunity attacks without expending your reaction. In other words, unlimited number of opportunity attacks in exchange for your bonus action. The feat allows you to make opportunity attacks against enemies who enter your reach. Obviously it only works if your turn is before the enemy closes to melee range, but it makes you incredibly good against hordes. Something the fighter usually lacks.
You can pair it up with Sentinel to literally build a wall of monsters who can't get close to you.
It gets even better if you are an EK and take the War Caster feat. Now you can Booming Blade everyone who enters your reach. In this case I don't recommend Sentinel, as the extra damage from BB will immediately go off if they continue to move to melee distance with you.


I haven't had the chance to playtest this guy, but I'm eager for your opinion.

Happy Holidays to all of you!

Needs a catchier name....CAPTAIN Spearman! XD

[Garwig]

You'll need Spell Sniper as well to do that at reach range, Booming Blade only has a range of 5'.

Damn, I forgot about Booming Blade having a range. But still as a variant human it's doable by level 6.


It's very strong, but I doubt you're going to get much mileage out of it. I don't know a single DM who would even consider sider letting you use tunnel Fighter.

I'm usually a DM and it never occured to me to not allow it. I'd rather design encounters with lots of archers, spellcasters or single powerful monsters than not allowing tunnel fighter. :smallsmile:


Needs a catchier name....CAPTAIN Spearman! XD

Negasonic Captain Spearman McAwsomeville it is then :smallwink:

[Naanomi]

Are we going to get Volo races in the guide soon?

[Garwig]

And adding the new UA Martial Archetypes would be nice. It was good seeing new archetypes not based on combat superiority.

[Arkhios]

And adding the new UA Martial Archetypes would be nice. It was good seeing new archetypes not based on combat superiority.

While I do kinda agree with you, I think the general purpose of these guides is to only include material published (and sold) by WotC, not Unearthed Arcana "options on trial", though I guess it might vary from poster to poster.

[ChildofLuthic]

While I do kinda agree with you, I think the general purpose of these guides is to only include material published (and sold) by WotC, not Unearthed Arcana "options on trial", though I guess it might vary from poster to poster.

I mean, it's super useful if your DM is allowing UA. That way you can know if the archetype is ridiculously underpowered and should be avoided, or if it plays differently than the fluff suggests, or if it's really overpowered and you're going to either look like a minmaxer for playing it or possibly have to tone yourself down a bit.

[nmitchell2]

I haven't read through all 153 posts on the thread, but I have seen very little on the Fighter/Barbarian multiclass. The guide itself literally says 'lots of synergy' under Barbarian multiclass and no reasons why. I understand that they might be obvious to most people but come on, it needs to be there.

Mention things like Rage giving resistances to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage and Reckless Attack cancelling the -5 to hit from GWM. Mention how Totem Warrior is superior to Berserker and which path to follow in different party compositions(Wolf with 2 or more melee teammates, Bear otherwise). Mention the Half-Orc Champion/Bear-Totem Warrior build as an example of synergy. Explain that Eldritch Knight and Barbarian don't mix because you can't cast spells or maintain concentration while raging.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm just going to update here that I've put all of the Volo's material in, and I've included Garwig's build as Negasonic Spearlord McAwesomesauce. Full credit to Garwig.

I keep forgetting about the Tunnel Fighter, but I'll get around to it.


I haven't read through all 153 posts on the thread, but I have seen very little on the Fighter/Barbarian multiclass. The guide itself literally says 'lots of synergy' under Barbarian multiclass and no reasons why. I understand that they might be obvious to most people but come on, it needs to be there.

Mention things like Rage giving resistances to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage and Reckless Attack cancelling the -5 to hit from GWM. Mention how Totem Warrior is superior to Berserker and which path to follow in different party compositions(Wolf with 2 or more melee teammates, Bear otherwise). Mention the Half-Orc Champion/Bear-Totem Warrior build as an example of synergy. Explain that Eldritch Knight and Barbarian don't mix because you can't cast spells or maintain concentration while raging.
I think you're right that I could include some more specific ideas, and I updated the guide with them.


That said, this isn't a multiclassing guide. This is a guide for exploring a single class and introducing people into character optimization. I don't like multiclassing, I don't pretend to have a lot to say on it, and I don't care to dedicate more than a blurb per class to it. PeteNutButter has a solid multiclassing guide that I heartily recommend to anyone that wants to talk multiclassing strategies in-depth.

[kitamura]

Apologies for a slightly necropost, but since Evil has updated this thread a few weeks ago, I'm taking that to mean he's still around and will see this at some point.


Blindness/Deafness*: The effect just isn't that powerful, and you're giving them a save every round.

Blur*: Oh, look, a spell that benefits you just as much as Blindness would, but doesn't have any saves involved. A necessary choice if you don't want to pump Int.


I'm honestly surprised that no one has called you out on this yet. You're either underestimating what Blindness does to a person in this game, or you assumed Blur was better after only reading half of the "blindness" condition.

Benefits of Blur spell:
Enemy has disadvantage to hit you and only you.

This is a good thing... however...

Benefits of inflicting Blindness on a key enemy, using Blindness/Deafness spell:
1) The spell does not require your concentration.
2) Your entire party has advantage to hit the target.
3) The target has disadvantage to hit you and all of your allies with attacks... assuming he even knows where to aim them.
4) The target will have a very hard time properly using a lot spells, if he's a caster. It's a little hard to directly target what you cannot see. Does your DM let you accurately target a space you cannot see with a fireball spell? Better yet, does your DM let you "know" that the creature you want to hit is even inside the radius? A lot of spellcaster NPC's aren't going to be passing the con save against this spell, especially if you gave them disadvantage by striking them at least once last round (or even on this round if you're Haste'd... remember how I said Blindness/Deafness doesn't require concentration?) Even some of the monsters with decent Con scores still have a moderate chance for failure if you give them disadvantage on the save, which is pretty easy for an Eldritch Knight to do. And the ones that lack decent con are just screwed.

This does, of course, require the enemy to rely on vision to hit you, but most enemies are reliant on their sight. And yes, you may get slightly more or slightly less mileage depending on your DM. And deafness is a pretty weak condition. But Blindness as a condition is pretty strong. A spell that inflicts this condition, without even requiring you to concentrate, is even stronger. And being able to freely assign disadvantage on this save is even stronger still. Maybe not "sky blue" strong, but better than red.

[Specter]

Apologies for a slightly necropost, but since Evil has updated this thread a few weeks ago, I'm taking that to mean he's still around and will see this at some point.

I'm honestly surprised that no one has called you out on this yet. You're either underestimating what Blindness does to a person in this game, or you assumed Blur was better after only reading half of the "blindness" condition.

Benefits of Blur spell:
Enemy has disadvantage to hit you and only you.

This is a good thing... however...

Benefits of inflicting Blindness on a key enemy, using Blindness/Deafness spell:
1) The spell does not require your concentration.
2) Your entire party has advantage to hit the target.
3) The target has disadvantage to hit you and all of your allies with attacks... assuming he even knows where to aim them.
4) The target will have a very hard time properly using a lot spells, if he's a caster. It's a little hard to directly target what you cannot see. Does your DM let you accurately target a space you cannot see with a fireball spell? Better yet, does your DM let you "know" that the creature you want to hit is even inside the radius? A lot of spellcaster NPC's aren't going to be passing the con save against this spell, especially if you gave them disadvantage by striking them at least once last round (or even on this round if you're Haste'd... remember how I said Blindness/Deafness doesn't require concentration?) Even some of the monsters with decent Con scores still have a moderate chance for failure if you give them disadvantage on the save, which is pretty easy for an Eldritch Knight to do. And the ones that lack decent con are just screwed.

This does, of course, require the enemy to rely on vision to hit you, but most enemies are reliant on their sight. And yes, you may get slightly more or slightly less mileage depending on your DM. And deafness is a pretty weak condition. But Blindness as a condition is pretty strong. A spell that inflicts this condition, without even requiring you to concentrate, is even stronger. And being able to freely assign disadvantage on this save is even stronger still. Maybe not "sky blue" strong, but better than red.

Eldritch Strike turns many 'never take' spells into 'could take', indeed.

[Asmotherion]

Generally a very good guide.

However, I feel you underestimate two things:

A) For the Eldritch Knight: Blink, IMO should be cyan blue. Not only is it a small-scale teleport as you put it, it's also a 50% chance of getting immune to all damage 'till your next turn. It also takes no Concentration to keep, so you can have it active, together with Mirror Image AND Blur, making you extreamly hard to hit.

B) Warlock Dip should be also Cyan Blue. Hex alone to fill your Concentration slot, which, unless you are an Eldritch Knight, you don't use either way, for Long-Term Extra Damage makes it Worth it. If you count UA, the Hexblade/Fighter multiclass can be a very Dangerous Opponent too. Also, the fact that, as a Fighter, you are proficient with Con saves make Hex even better for you. You also can get a bunsh of usefull things along the Way, such as more Cantrips (including Scag), A perfect Eldritch Blast as a Ranged Option (+Agonising, as long as you have the Charisma to benefit from it) and other Invocations with deffensive or offensive benefits.

[Saggo]

A lot of spellcaster NPC's aren't going to be passing the con save against this spell, especially if you gave them disadvantage by striking them at least once last round

I'm not so sure Eldritch Strike works on an already existing spell, given it says "against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn."

[EvilAnagram]

I'm honestly surprised that no one has called you out on this yet. You're either underestimating what Blindness does to a person in this game, or you assumed Blur was better after only reading half of the "blindness" condition.

Benefits of Blur spell:
Enemy has disadvantage to hit you and only you.

This is a good thing... however...

Benefits of inflicting Blindness on a key enemy, using Blindness/Deafness spell:
1) The spell does not require your concentration.
2) Your entire party has advantage to hit the target.
3) The target has disadvantage to hit you and all of your allies with attacks... assuming he even knows where to aim them.
4) The target will have a very hard time properly using a lot spells, if he's a caster. It's a little hard to directly target what you cannot see. Does your DM let you accurately target a space you cannot see with a fireball spell? Better yet, does your DM let you "know" that the creature you want to hit is even inside the radius? A lot of spellcaster NPC's aren't going to be passing the con save against this spell, especially if you gave them disadvantage by striking them at least once last round (or even on this round if you're Haste'd... remember how I said Blindness/Deafness doesn't require concentration?) Even some of the monsters with decent Con scores still have a moderate chance for failure if you give them disadvantage on the save, which is pretty easy for an Eldritch Knight to do. And the ones that lack decent con are just screwed.

This does, of course, require the enemy to rely on vision to hit you, but most enemies are reliant on their sight. And yes, you may get slightly more or slightly less mileage depending on your DM. And deafness is a pretty weak condition. But Blindness as a condition is pretty strong. A spell that inflicts this condition, without even requiring you to concentrate, is even stronger. And being able to freely assign disadvantage on this save is even stronger still. Maybe not "sky blue" strong, but better than red.

I think you've made quite a few good points, and I don't want to completely take away from them, so I'm just going to provide my own justification for my rating.

The Eldritch Knight is, by far, the most restricted casting class, with the single possible exception of the Arcane Trickster. You get very few spells known, all but four of which are restricted to two schools of magic. Because of this, every spell that an EK takes has to be regularly useful in a wide variety of situations. Blindness/Deafness is, under normal circumstances, a perfectly useful spell. However, for Eldritch Knights it has some major problems:

It fights for your only non-evocation, non-abjuration second-level spell.
Other spells competing for that real estate are major defensive buffs.
It targets Constitution, which means that the biggest, nastiest heavy hitters you really want to blind have the best chance of not being blinded. That limits its usefulness.
Eldritch Strike isn't an option for two levels after you get to pick Blindness/Deafness
Saving at the end of each round again limits its effectiveness.


Contrast with Blur, which as you said is much more limited, but happens no matter what and lasts the duration, so long as a Fighter can pass the occasional Con save.

I don't think that Blindness/Deafness is a bad spell. I do, however, think that it's a bad spell for an Eldritch Knight. It's competing with some exceptionally useful spells, and it lacks the major virtue that EK's need from their spells: consistency.



A) For the Eldritch Knight: Blink, IMO should be cyan blue. Not only is it a small-scale teleport as you put it, it's also a 50% chance of getting immune to all damage 'till your next turn. It also takes no Concentration to keep, so you can have it active, together with Mirror Image AND Blur, making you extreamly hard to hit.
It's a great spell, but the randomness and the fact that you only get one 3rd-level non-evocation, non-abjuration hold it back a bit. Also, you can't have Mirror Image and Blur up at the same time. They compete for the same real estate, just like Blink and


B) Warlock Dip should be also Cyan Blue. Hex alone to fill your Concentration slot, which, unless you are an Eldritch Knight, you don't use either way, for Long-Term Extra Damage makes it Worth it. If you count UA, the Hexblade/Fighter multiclass can be a very Dangerous Opponent too. Also, the fact that, as a Fighter, you are proficient with Con saves make Hex even better for you. You also can get a bunsh of usefull things along the Way, such as more Cantrips (including Scag), A perfect Eldritch Blast as a Ranged Option (+Agonising, as long as you have the Charisma to benefit from it) and other Invocations with deffensive or offensive benefits.
That's all fun, but it's nothing you can't get with Magic Initiate, and I don't think it's particularly more valuable than any other caster dip.

[Saggo]

It's a great spell, but the randomness and the fact that you only get one 3rd-level non-evocation, non-abjuration hold it back a bit. Also, you can't have Mirror Image and Blur up at the same time. They compete for the same real estate, just like Blink and

Fairly certain you can get up to 2 3rd level spells at level 13. You get both an additional spell known and your one spell replace.

Not sure I'd use it on Blink though, most Eldritch Knights want to draw attention given a decent Con score. Even my archer EK interposes between our mage back line and the enemies as a second line of defense.

[MeeposFire]

Well I find warlock is perfect if you want to be a warmagic using EK that can work at range. Eldritch blast can be taken by magic initiate but it can never get an attribute to damage which requires 2 levels of warlock. With that and warmagic you get an excellent way to deal damage with spell and weapon. Now granted the best way to use this is to get rogue levels after the warlock levels to improve your single weapon attack and this makes it less a fighter build but I can see why you would want those 2 levels of warlock (melee only does not need the warlock levels due to booming blade).

[MrStabby]

B) Warlock Dip should be also Cyan Blue. Hex alone to fill your Concentration slot, which, unless you are an Eldritch Knight, you don't use either way, for Long-Term Extra Damage makes it Worth it. If you count UA, the Hexblade/Fighter multiclass can be a very Dangerous Opponent too. Also, the fact that, as a Fighter, you are proficient with Con saves make Hex even better for you. You also can get a bunsh of usefull things along the Way, such as more Cantrips (including Scag), A perfect Eldritch Blast as a Ranged Option (+Agonising, as long as you have the Charisma to benefit from it) and other Invocations with deffensive or offensive benefits.

I have to agree with this. Warlock gives the eldritch knight a lot. Firstly more spell slots. A 2 level dip lets you cast your level one spells a lot more times per day if the party gets short rests. Shield 8 times per day makes an EK very tough. If nothing else this more than compensates for the slightly lower Con you might need to get Cha to 13.

Secondly the invocations are simply superb. Things like Devil's sight are very nice for combat and exploration, whilst you can get great out of combat utility from reading all languages or detect magic at will. This is even before considering the extra spells you can pick up.

If you are willing to go 3 levels deep you can pick up a book of ancient secrets to give you superb ritual casting. This also gives you access to a lot of great spells from level 2 which you would struggle to take as an EK. Whilst high Cha enables great stuff like fairy fire, even a low Cha gives a lot of spells of interest to an EK. Hex, misty step, darkness, invisibility, mirror image...





I don't think that Blindness/Deafness is a bad spell. I do, however, think that it's a bad spell for an Eldritch Knight. It's competing with some exceptionally useful spells, and it lacks the major virtue that EK's need from their spells: consistency.



I think you are almost, but not quite right here. Consistency - in terms of always being useful isn't needed. What is needed is to always have a useful action. Niche spells are OK as long as they never overlap with other niche spells and as a whole you have a lot of solutions. This includes non spell actions as well. As a melee EK, for example, I wouldn't take spells that would need a strength save most of the time. Strength saves tend to imobalise people and I can cover that with grappling. Likewise I wouldn't use a spell for single target damage as the attack action covers that need pretty well. My (minor) gripe with blindness is that con saves tend to correlate with good strength saves - so it doesn't really help me with the things I can't shove around.

[visitor]

I'm not so sure Eldritch Strike works on an already existing spell, given it says "against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn."

We were just discussing that here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515126-Question-about-Eldritch-Knight-Eldritch-Strike

[Shadowflick]

The more I look at it, it seems that Battlemaster has the most front loaded abilities that are powerful then, but tapers off later. The Eldritch Knight starts weak, but gains in power as you level

[Arkhios]

The more I look at it, it seems that Battlemaster has the most front loaded abilities that are powerful then, but tapers off later. The Eldritch Knight starts weak, but gains in power as you level

Personally I'm not so sure about Battle Master getting weaker later, but I have to agree on Eldritch Knight.

Compared to a full wizard, they only lose by 2 x 4th, 2 x 5th, and only a handful of higher level spells and slots in total, but otherwise they have just as many spell slots, and - with appropriate investment - their Spell Save DC's are potentially equal. What they lose in both spells known and spell slots, they more than come up with their other abilities, which aren't bad at all.

[Chunkosaurus]

Personally I'm not so sure about Battle Master getting weaker later, but I have to agree on Eldritch Knight.

Compared to a full wizard, they only lose by 2 x 4th, 2 x 5th, and only a handful of higher level spells and slots in total, but otherwise they have just as many spell slots, and - with appropriate investment - their Spell Save DC's are potentially equal. What they lose in both spells known and spell slots, they more than come up with their other abilities, which aren't bad at all.

Their abilities and spell list do a really good job of enforcing that they are a magical warrior. The synergy is really good with the spellcasting and fighting

[Cimarron_Man]

Hello, thanks for the awesome guide. I'm​ kinda new in 5e so I'm looking for a little bit of advice. I have a Battle Master Fighter about to reach Lv. 4 I took Variant Human and the Shield Master feat upon creation so now I'm deciding between taking a second feat (there are many interesting ones there) or increase one of the ability scores by +2 (currently STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8).


What do you think? If I got it correctly the DEX/STR check a creature has to do after a shield shove is against my STR. My aim is to be practical and follow the oat that makes me more efficient in combat.

[EvilAnagram]

Hello, thanks for the awesome guide. I'm​ kinda new in 5e so I'm looking for a little bit of advice. I have a Battle Master Fighter about to reach Lv. 4 I took Variant Human and the Shield Master feat upon creation so now I'm deciding between taking a second feat (there are many interesting ones there) or increase one of the ability scores by +2 (currently STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8).


What do you think? If I got it correctly the DEX/STR check a creature has to do after a shield shove is against my STR. My aim is to be practical and follow the oat that makes me more efficient in combat.

One thing I'd say is that your build is not terribly efficient as-is. Usually, you want to focus on one primary ability modifier for all of your attacks and save abilities, but you're split between Strength and Dexterity thanks to your feat choice. I would say that you should probably spend the next two ASIs pumping up your Strength to get the most out of Shield Master and your basic attacks. After that, feats are worth the investment.

[Cimarron_Man]

I would say that you should probably spend the next two ASIs pumping up your Strength to get the most out of Shield Master and your basic attacks. After that, feats are worth the investment.

I forgot to mention my character is using a rapier so i was using DEX to strike but i'm also thinking about what you said about having better chances to pull off the Shield Shove sinces is a check againt my STR. I guess it's a matter of choosing more accurate shoving against better striking power.

[xanderh]

I forgot to mention my character is using a rapier so i was using DEX to strike but i'm also thinking about what you said about having better chances to pull off the Shield Shove sinces is a check againt my STR. I guess it's a matter of choosing more accurate shoving against better striking power.

When using a rapier, you get to choose between DEX and STR. You use the better of your two scores.
Plus, you can always just get a different weapon.

[Arkhios]

When using a rapier, you get to choose between DEX and STR. You use the better of your two scores whichever you want to.
Plus, you can always just get a different weapon.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist fixing that for you. Because that's how it is. Absolutely nothing compels you to use better of your two scores. The choice is always yours.

[xanderh]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist fixing that for you. Because that's how it is. Absolutely nothing compels you to use better of your two scores. The choice is always yours.

That's just being pedantic for no reason. In play, there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't use the better score. It's not a real choice,so there's no point in making the distinction.

[Arkhios]

That's just being pedantic for no reason. In play, there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't use the better score. It's not a real choice,so there's no point in making the distinction.

You said like it was a written rule. Which it isn't. Yes, it was being pedantic, but not for no reason. It was a clarification as to how the rules are written. Rules don't say "you use the better of the two scores" so it is a real choice. No matter which way would be more optimal. Rules don't enforce optimal thinking.

[xanderh]

You said like it was a written rule. Which it isn't. Yes, it was being pedantic, but not for no reason. It was a clarification as to how the rules are written. Rules don't say "you use the better of the two scores" so it is a real choice. No matter which way would be more optimal. Rules don't enforce optimal thinking.

Is there any reason at all, ever, to use the lower of the two scores? Is there a single thing in the game that makes using the lower score not an objectively worse option? If not, it's a false choice, and the rule is effectively "use the higher score".

And why even bother having this conversation? It's pointless. Yes, technically, you're allowed to use the lower of the two scores, but we're in a thread about optimisation, so that option isn't even relevant in the first place.
Why bring it up? Are you just looking to have an argument for no reason?

[MeeposFire]

Well you could be playing a barbarian with a higher, but not much higher , dex score and chooses to use str when using rage or reckless attack but dex in other situations. It would be really niche and more than likely a temporary situation since eventually you will probably either equal out the scores or one will become much higher than the other (or str gets higher period of course).

[Citan]

Is there any reason at all, ever, to use the lower of the two scores? Is there a single thing in the game that makes using the lower score not an objectively worse option? If not, it's a false choice, and the rule is effectively "use the higher score".

And why even bother having this conversation? It's pointless. Yes, technically, you're allowed to use the lower of the two scores, but we're in a thread about optimisation, so that option isn't even relevant in the first place.
Why bring it up? Are you just looking to have an argument for no reason?
I'm sorry but you just got heated because someone corrected you on this, but he did it with good reason.

Yes, there is a very legitimate reason to use "the lower of the two scores" which is precisely the case for the player's question.

He wants his character to be a DEX based Fighter, which is a very fine choice especially for a sword and board warrior: better Initiative, better Dexterity saves, nearly as good AC as a heavy but without stealth disadvantage.

Yet the Shove option is always an Athletics check, which is made by STR.
And since...
a) You can easily compensate a lower ability score through proficiency, and even more in player's case by a single level of Rogue to put Expertise in it,
b) Since yourself can choose DEX when defending against a Grapple/Shove...

There is absolutely no good reason to use ASI on STR bumps unless both considerations hereunder are true...
1) You plan on actually reaching 20th level with this character (which means losing even a single level for multiclass is a very tough choice).
2) You plan on actually using the Shove bonus action + Attack as your bread and butter tactic.
In all other cases, you'd much better spend those ASIs on maximizing DEX, getting a Resilient and other feats.
That actually is optimizing. :=)

[xanderh]

I'm sorry but you just got heated because someone corrected you on this, but he did it with good reason.

Yes, there is a very legitimate reason to use "the lower of the two scores" which is precisely the case for the player's question.

He wants his character to be a DEX based Fighter, which is a very fine choice especially for a sword and board warrior: better Initiative, better Dexterity saves, nearly as good AC as a heavy but without stealth disadvantage.

Yet the Shove option is always an Athletics check, which is made by STR.
And since...
a) You can easily compensate a lower ability score through proficiency, and even more in player's case by a single level of Rogue to put Expertise in it,
b) Since yourself can choose DEX when defending against a Grapple/Shove...

There is absolutely no good reason to use ASI on STR bumps unless both considerations hereunder are true...
1) You plan on actually reaching 20th level with this character (which means losing even a single level for multiclass is a very tough choice).
2) You plan on actually using the Shove bonus action + Attack as your bread and butter tactic.
In all other cases, you'd much better spend those ASIs on maximizing DEX, getting a Resilient and other feats.
That actually is optimizing. :=)

So why would he use the lower score for the attack roll, again?

[Corran]

So why would he use the lower score for the attack roll, again?
It could make a difference if he multiclassed barbarian, as the lowest attack bonus (ie strngth) might be compensated by a better average damage (rage bonus, reckless attack). And he could use dex when not raging/recklessly attacking. But this is an edge case, and the only one I can think of. But it could make a difference in such an edge case.

Also, when dominated by enemies and you have to attack one of your allies, I believe it is within RAW (though very meta) to use the lowest of your str/dex if wielding a finesse weapon, to avoid hurting your allies. Though I could be wrong about how RAW this is (and I am too bored to look up for the rules of dominate spells).

[Arkhios]

So why would he use the lower score for the attack roll, again?

Unless your DM allows you to make an Athletics check with Dexterity every time you use Shove, you're bound by RAW to use Strength. Even if you would normally attack with Dexterity.

And, let's assume he multiclasses into barbarian, and would continue making rapier attacks with Dexterity, he wouldn't get rage's bonus to damage rolls, for example. Rage requires Strength based melee attacks.
As Corran said, in that case, using the lower of your two ability scores (strength) would be more reasonable.

[SharkForce]

Unless your DM allows you to make an Athletics check with Dexterity every time you use Shove, you're bound by RAW to use Strength. Even if you would normally attack with Dexterity.

And, let's assume he multiclasses into barbarian, and would continue making rapier attacks with Dexterity, he wouldn't get rage's bonus to damage rolls, for example. Rage requires Strength based melee attacks.
As Corran said, in that case, using the lower of your two ability scores (strength) would be more reasonable.

that isn't an attack roll, and it has absolutely nothing to do with whether a weapon is finesse or not. in fact, it isn't even using the rapier in any way.

the barbarian example was actually a legitimate reason though, if for some reason you built your babarian with higher dex than strength.

in any event, i'd say buff your dex, and dip rogue at some point. i don't care if you *are* going to reach level 20, fighter doesn't offer nearly enough past level 11 for even a strength-based fighter... for a dex-based fighter, 9 levels of rogue not only offers you superior damage to 9 more levels of fighter (after level 11 in fighter has been reached), it also offers a lot more of just about everything else you could possibly want. taking fighter levels beyond level 11 aren't very good, with the exception of 17 and 20 (and 18 for champions). and those 2 (or three) levels simply aren't good enough to make up for those 7 (or 6) other mediocre levels.

2 levels of rogue can easily give you a lot of value. and, as i said, once you've gotten those first 11 fighter levels, i'd just go the rest of the way in something else (almost anything else, really, but for a dex fighter rogue makes tons of sense) and keep on calling yourself a fighter if a fighter is what you want to be (because rogue as "agile fighter" fits perfectly fine without even refluffing anything, as long as your rogue archetype doesn't do something your fighter would never do).

[xanderh]

Unless your DM allows you to make an Athletics check with Dexterity every time you use Shove, you're bound by RAW to use Strength. Even if you would normally attack with Dexterity.

And, let's assume he multiclasses into barbarian, and would continue making rapier attacks with Dexterity, he wouldn't get rage's bonus to damage rolls, for example. Rage requires Strength based melee attacks.
As Corran said, in that case, using the lower of your two ability scores (strength) would be more reasonable.

First part is irrelevant, it's not performing an attack roll. You don't get to choose.

For the second part, the extra rage damage in no way makes up for the loss in accuracy. If the strength and dex scores are one apart (best case for using strength here), you would gain 1-3 damage depending on level, but lose out on accuracy. Except for very edge cases where you're basically guaranteed to hit, it's not worth it.

[Corran]

For the second part, the extra rage damage in no way makes up for the loss in accuracy. If the strength and dex scores are one apart (best case for using strength here), you would gain 1-3 damage depending on level, but lose out on accuracy.
Reckless attack can play a part in this calculation, but that's not even important to the point. And the point is:

Except for very edge cases where you're basically guaranteed to hit, it's not worth it.
That is your answer.
True, it will come up very rarely, as it will certainly require an unconventional build for this choice to have any meaning, but it can be a real choice than just a bug.

[Ryuu Hayato]

You will update this guide? :smallsmile:

[ZorroGames]

I disagree that you're always going to be bad at one important save; using point-buy Dex, Con and Wis 14 are all quite doable whilst still having points for a Primary stat at 16 (albeit having to hard-dump the other two). ... snip...

How does a ST fighter get DE, CO, WI at 14 and a prime at 16? ST fighters can’t do that, DE fighters yes. If DE fighter then it is possible to get pre-racial 15 DE and 14 for CO and WI.

[KorvinStarmast]

How does a ST fighter get DE, CO, WI at 14 and a prime at 16? ST fighters can’t do that, DE fighters yes. If DE fighter then it is possible to get pre-racial 15 DE and 14 for CO and WI.

Mountain Dwarf, I think ... 27 point buy and +2 bonus in str and con

14 14 12 8 14 10
16 14 14 8 14 10

[xanderh]

How does a ST fighter get DE, CO, WI at 14 and a prime at 16? ST fighters can’t do that, DE fighters yes. If DE fighter then it is possible to get pre-racial 15 DE and 14 for CO and WI.

Easy. You need +1 to strength and +2 to any of your other stats at 14.
15 14 14 12 8 8 is a legal point buy array. If your +2 is to strength, you can even bring one of the 8s up to a 9, if you want. Not all races can do it, but a good amount of the races you might pick for eldritch Knight anyway have the option.

[quark12000]

Any updates to this, given the new ruling on Shield Master?

[ZorroGames]

Mountain Dwarf, I think ... 27 point buy and +2 bonus in str and con

14 14 12 8 14 10
16 14 14 8 14 10

Just a comment, you are partially at the core of why I am fascinated by Mountain ⛰ Dwarf in 5e. Otherwise I would be building Hill Dwarf characters.

[xanderh]

Any updates to this, given the new ruling on Shield Master?

I think a lot of people are just ignoring that ruling, considering it goes explicitly against a previous ruling, and isn't founded on a persuasive foundation. He made it seem like a kneejerk reaction to a player using a build that made things too easy, and he didn't know how to compensate.

[LudicSavant]

I think a lot of people are just ignoring that ruling, considering it goes explicitly against a previous ruling, and isn't founded on a persuasive foundation. He made it seem like a kneejerk reaction to a player using a build that made things too easy, and he didn't know how to compensate.

Where's the previous ruling?

[xanderh]

Where's the previous ruling?

Also on twitter. Here's the link: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557816721810403329?s=20
This is what he says.

As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks for that. Okay, so now we have these two rulings:


As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.


if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn

Oooof. Yeah, those two rulings definitely can't both be true. However, Jeremy posted another tweet, saying:


Today's tweet is in response to my old tweet. I made this ruling about bonus actions last year, but the old Shield Master tweet slipped through the cracks. I'm rectifying that today.

So, essentially, Jeremy Crawford is changing the rules to severely nerf Shield Masters. :smallconfused:

[xanderh]

Thanks for that. Okay, so now we have these two rulings:





Oooof. Yeah, those two rulings definitely can't both be true. However, Jeremy posted another tweet, saying:



So, essentially, Jeremy Crawford is changing the rules to severely nerf Shield Masters. :smallconfused:

And from what I've seen, a lot of the community is just ignoring him, because he doesn't know what he's talking about. Apparently, he changed it because Shield Master was "a cheese factory", even though Polearm Master can do the exact same thing, while also using other feats to buff damage (and in general just doing more damage in the first place).
Plus, Shield Master wasn't overpowered in the first place, so there's no reason for him to change the rules to nerf them. Besides, this is the sort of stuff that should be ignored until official errata is published changing the text of the feat from "if" to "when"...

[Arkhios]

And from what I've seen, a lot of the community is just ignoring him, because he doesn't know what he's talking about. Apparently, he changed it because Shield Master was "a cheese factory", even though Polearm Master can do the exact same thing, while also using other feats to buff damage (and in general just doing more damage in the first place).
Plus, Shield Master wasn't overpowered in the first place, so there's no reason for him to change the rules to nerf them. Besides, this is the sort of stuff that should be ignored until official errata is published changing the text of the feat from "if" to "when"...

That's a bold claim about the game's designer. Unless you took part of the design process, I'd reconsider saying things like that myself.

[xanderh]

That's a bold claim about the [I]game's designer[/].

Well, considering his track record on Twitter, I'd say it's pretty much the common opinion about it around here. He's been notoriously inconsistent, and has been going back and changing stuff a lot without providing any reasoning or rationale as to why it's now different.

[Arkhios]

Well, considering his track record on Twitter, I'd say it's pretty much the common opinion about it around here. He's been notoriously inconsistent, and has been going back and changing stuff a lot without providing any reasoning or rationale as to why it's now different.

Still, if anyone ought to know what was the intent behind a rule, it's him, not the community.

[xanderh]

Still, if anyone ought to know what was the intent behind a rule, it's him, not the community.

And my opinion is that he stated the intent with his first tweet, and he's now going back and changing it because he couldn't deal with a player who used it in a campaign he ran. I can't really think of any other reason for changing this tweet specifically, when it is explicitly different to all other bonus actions dependent on another action.

[LudicSavant]

Apparently, he changed it because Shield Master was "a cheese factory"

Because everyone knows that it's Fighters who are the overpowered class in 5e, right? :smallsigh:


Apparently, he changed it because Shield Master was "a cheese factory"

Source of cheese factory comment?

[EvilAnagram]

Any updates to this, given the new ruling on Shield Master?

Nope. That's a ruling that I don't see having a major impact at the table, even at official games. Especially not in a class with action surge.

Also, that's similar to how I interpreted the rules to begin with. The only difference is that I would make a player carry out at least one attack from the attack action, not all attacks.

[xanderh]

Because everyone knows that it's Fighters who are the overpowered class in 5e, right? :smallsigh:



Source of cheese factory comment?

Unfortunately I don't have it anymore. It was posted in a thread here, but it's a while ago, and honestly I can't be bothered to search through his twitter feed. He's pretty active, and the search didn't turn up anything.

[Arkhios]

And my opinion is that he stated the intent with his first tweet, and he's now going back and changing it because he couldn't deal with a player who used it in a campaign he ran. I can't really think of any other reason for changing this tweet specifically, when it is explicitly different to all other bonus actions dependent on another action.

Twitter is so hectic that it's almost chaotic as a medium that it's more than possible to overlook a small tweet. I for one can't make head or tail of Twitter's format, and I sincerely doubt that I'm the only one, and thus I'm willing to give Crawford benefit of the doubt on that regard.

[LudicSavant]

Managed to find it.

Wow... seeing Jeremy Crawford refer to Shield Master working as it appears to be written (and as he originally said it was intended to work) as a "knock-'em-prone cheese factory" is seriously disconcerting. It stirs up bad memories of the 3e devs talking in serious tones about how, of all the things in the system, two-weapon fighting was the domain of scheming minmaxers.

I mean, even if Shield Master was overtuned for some reason or other (which is debatable), talking about it in such a way really does not inspire confidence in the notion that these design decisions are based on more than knee-jerk reactions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Twitter is so hectic that it's almost chaotic as a medium that it's more than possible to overlook a small tweet. I for one can't make head or tail of Twitter's format, and I sincerely doubt that I'm the only one, and thus I'm willing to give Crawford benefit of the doubt on that regard. Until that thing on Shield Master goes into the SA compendium, I'd say it's "an interesting ruling" but that it isn't "official" in the way that the SA compendium is official.
A few thoughts recently from Crawford.

FWIW, my DM in our Tier 3 campaign decided that my Shield Master Champion's 'knock 'em down then kill 'em' was a little OP, so his ruling is
"If you use action surge, that bonus action at the end of your attack routine sets you up for advantage on those next three attacks- let that be enough". (The defensive bonuses are handy versus spells with Dex saves, to be sure)
We also discussed how me using that feature to set up our other melee attackers with prone enemies was a good enough feature: our barbarian with GWM loves him some advantage so that he does not have to use reckless attack for those attacks. The key for us is to stay near to each other ...

I am good with the ruling, since his rationale fits into how our game is going.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1005501770158624768

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1005559514018410496

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1005559931347484672

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1005560336068382720

[EvilAnagram]

Snip

To add to this, Crawford's ruling fits the text as written:


If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.

I'm pretty sure most people read if-then statements as though the contingent action must precede the resultant action.

[KorvinStarmast]

To add to this, Crawford's ruling fits the text as written:

I'm pretty sure most people read if-then statements as though the contingent action must precede the resultant action.
Hmm, my browser/GiTP just ate both of my replies to you. Suffice to say it is not written as an if then statement, as I read it, but it is OK to disagree about that. :smallsmile:

[quark12000]

Until that thing on Shield Master goes into the SA compendium, I'd say it's "an interesting ruling" but that it isn't "official" in the way that the SA compendium is official.
A few thoughts recently from Crawford.

FWIW, my DM in our Tier 3 campaign decided that my Shield Master Champion's 'knock 'em down then kill 'em' was a little OP, so his ruling is
"If you use action surge, that bonus action at the end of your attack routine sets you up for advantage on those next three attacks- let that be enough". (The defensive bonuses are handy versus spells with Dex saves, to be sure)
We also discussed how me using that feature to set up our other melee attackers with prone enemies was a good enough feature: our barbarian with GWM loves him some advantage so that he does not have to use reckless attack for those attacks. The key for us is to stay near to each other ...

I am good with the ruling, since his rationale fits into how our game is going.



Good for you. What about groups with mostly ranged fighters and only one or two melee people? In that case, especially at low levels, this ruling really cuts the testes out of Shield Master, making it pretty much another useless feat.

[EvilAnagram]

Good for you. What about groups with mostly ranged fighters and only one or two melee people? In that case, especially at low levels, this ruling really cuts the testes out of Shield Master, making it pretty much another useless feat.
There are many different builds that do not perform well in groups that cannot take advantage of them. That is why you should pay attention to party makeup when building a character. In Adventurers' League, it's wise to accept that sometimes party makeup will preclude certain styles.

[quark12000]

There are many different builds that do not perform well in groups that cannot take advantage of them. That is why you should pay attention to party makeup when building a character. In Adventurers' League, it's wise to accept that sometimes party makeup will preclude certain styles.

Uh...okay?

[EvilAnagram]

Uh...okay?

Allow me to explain: the fact that some parties won't benefit as much as others doesn't make it a bad feat. That can be said of almost every feature.

[LudicSavant]

I think the reason that that answer is unsatisfying to many people is because it doesn't work all that well to balance something kludgy and/or situational against a major investment resource that also can be used to buy something that is really not situational, like an ASI.

[EvilAnagram]

I think the reason that that answer is unsatisfying to many people is because it doesn't work all that well to balance something kludgy and/or situational against a major investment resource that also can be used to buy something that is really not situational, like an ASI.

I don't know that it's terribly situational. The situations in which it's useful are simply so wide. Dexterity saves are common, and even if the effect is targeting more than just you, you can turn a save for half damage into a save for zero damage. The shove effect can create great synergy if there's a damaging effect like Cloud of Daggers or Wall of X nearby, so there's synergy with control casters, in addition to the synergy with every other melee character. Hell, it's great simply to make you a little stickier, and it's a decent way to cheese a grappler build.

The fact that it doesn't give you the leeway to knock a character prone, then unleash all your attacks does not make it a bad feat.

[LudicSavant]

and it's a decent way to cheese a grappler build.

There's that word again.


I don't know that it's terribly situational. The situations in which it's useful are simply so wide. Dexterity saves are common, and even if the effect is targeting more than just you, you can turn a save for half damage into a save for zero damage. The shove effect can create great synergy if there's a damaging effect like Cloud of Daggers or Wall of X nearby, so there's synergy with control casters, in addition to the synergy with every other melee character. Hell, it's great simply to make you a little stickier, and it's a decent way to cheese a grappler build.

The face that it doesn't give you the leeway to knock a character prone, then unleash all your attacks does not make it a bad feat.

I don't know what criteria you're using to claim whether or not something's a "bad feat" but I didn't argue that it was one. I do however think that it is a more awkward feat than its previous iteration. And also one that might actually work better on casters than some martial characters now.

The feat gives you leeway to knock a character prone, then have all of your minions unleash all of their attacks. It's interesting that things like casters knocking people over to get slaughtered by swarms will barely feel the impact of this change at all.

[strangebloke]

I don't know what criteria you're using to claim whether or not something's a "bad feat" but I didn't argue that it was one. I do however think that it is a more awkward feat than its previous iteration. And also one that might actually work better on casters than some martial characters now.

More awkward, sure, and less powerful.

I mean without getting into it too much, think about how it interacts with action surge and haste. Haste attack action, bonus action shove, full attack action.

Also, while it used to be best on a fighter/paladin it is now (IMO) just as good on a barbarian if not better.

Advantage on strength checks + no use for your bonus action makes for pretty clear synergy. And you don't really need the ASI because you have advantage anyway.

[LudicSavant]

More awkward, sure, and less powerful.

I mean without getting into it too much, think about how it interacts with action surge and haste. Haste attack action, bonus action shove, full attack action.

Also, while it used to be best on a fighter/paladin it is now (IMO) just as good on a barbarian if not better.

Advantage on strength checks + no use for your bonus action makes for pretty clear synergy. And you don't really need the ASI because you have advantage anyway.

Indeed.

The benefit of New Shield Master (with the "you must finish all of your attacks then shove 'em" interpretation) scales based on:
- Your dexterity.
- The melee attack damage of your teammates.
- Access to the ability to make isolated attacks before doing all of your attacks (examples: Haste, minionmancy).

The end result is that the ability feels weirdly dissociative, and also that casters just got better relative to more conventional martials (again), and that the more conventional martial beneficiaries are having their self-sufficiency shot in the foot (again). So... yay balance patches? :smallconfused:

[EvilAnagram]

There's that word again.
It's a great word. I don't know why people treat cheese like a bad thing. I think it's pretty gouda.



I don't know what criteria you're using to claim whether or not something's a "bad feat" but I didn't argue that it was one. I do however think that it is a more awkward feat than its previous iteration. And also one that might actually work better on casters than some martial characters now.
There's a lot to unpack here. For starters, this is not another iteration. There is no change to the text. The only thing that has happened is that a designer said, "You know, you should probably just stick to the text of the book or else it gets a little too powerful compared to other martial options." The text itself is unchanged.

I would define a bad feat quite narrowly, but in this case I don't see how it is awkward to use, either. If you use an action to attack, you can use a bonus action to shove. That's a very simple conditional statement. If you do X, you can do Y. It's very useful both offensively and defensively, and with specific regards to fighters (the topic of this guide) it gives them a use for their bonus action that can set up an action surge for tons of fun.

Further, I cannot imagine many casters other than tanky clerics benefitting from it. It would be very unusual for a wizard to invest in proficiency with a shield, a decent athletics, and Shield Master. That's a 12-level investment without any ASIs spent on ability scores. Certainly, a minionmancer would benefit from having someone else in the party use it, but I don't think it would be a reasonable investment for them. At all. Remotely.

[LudicSavant]

There's a lot to unpack here. For starters, this is not another iteration. {{Scrubbed}} It is explicitly a change to Crawford's previous declaration of the rule's intent and function. It is entirely accurate to say that this is a new iteration of how the rule works according to the designer, and I think you already know that.



Further, I cannot imagine many casters other than tanky clerics benefitting from it. It would be very unusual for a wizard to invest in proficiency with a shield, a decent athletics, and Shield Master. That's a 12-level investment without any ASIs spent on ability scores. Certainly, a minionmancer would benefit from having someone else in the party use it, but I don't think it would be a reasonable investment for them. At all. Remotely.

{{Scrubbed}} You straight up named a caster that could do it in the very first sentence. Nobody even mentioned Wizards. At all. Remotely.

[EvilAnagram]

{{Scrubbed}} It is explicitly a change to Crawford's previous declaration of the rule's intent and function. It is entirely accurate to say that this is a new iteration of how the rule works according to the designer, and I think you already know that.
{{Scrubbed}}

Second, while I'm sure Jeremy's change of heart carries weight at his table, it is not errata. It is not a change to the rules, nor should it be treated as such. If your table obeys the word of Crawford, that's your prerogative, but I doubt this will affect most people.


{{Scrubbed}} You straight up named a caster that could do it in the very first sentence. Nobody even mentioned Wizards. At all. Remotely.

Did I miss the cleric build that's effective at minionmancy?

[LudicSavant]

Second, while I'm sure Jeremy's change of heart carries weight at his table, it is not errata. It is not a change to the rules, nor should it be treated as such. If your table obeys the word of Crawford, that's your prerogative, but I doubt this will affect most people.

Which of course has nothing to do with anything I said, just like your comment about Wizards. :smallconfused:

I said it was a new iteration (of Crawford's ruling). Which, you know, it is.

[EvilAnagram]

Which of course has nothing to do with anything I said, just like your comment about Wizards. :smallconfused:

His tweet is not the official position of Wizards of the Coast. It is therefore not a second iteration of the ability.

My comment about wizards was in reference to the comment about casters using minions. Minion summoning is an area of spellcasting dominated by wizards and druids, so I used one of those classes to illustrate my point.

Druids would also be pretty terrible as frontliners who need to stay in person form to use shields, but I was following a different path of argument from the, "sticking them on the frontline to use their actions to not cast spells is a bad tactic," track.

Caught up?

[LudicSavant]

His tweet is not the official position of Wizards of the Coast. It is therefore not a second iteration of the ability.


Caught up?

I didn't say it was a change to the text of the ability. I said it was a change to his stated stance on the matter.


It is explicitly a change to Crawford's previous declaration of the rule's intent and function.

I said it was a new iteration (of Crawford's ruling)

I have no idea how I can clarify this for you any further.

[strangebloke]

Which of course has nothing to do with anything I said, just like your comment about Wizards. :smallconfused:

I said it was a new iteration (of Crawford's ruling). Which, you know, it is.

Iteration implies that there's some kind of version control in play. You know, like you'd be able to say, "We're ignoring errata #374." or "Our game is consistent with Version 1.2.4 of the game." Yes, he changed his statement, but only in a non-official, non-annotated way. It's only obsessive guys online who are aware either of his ruling, or of the 'change' in his ruling, and even then, rulings are whatever. I've reversed plenty of my own rulings. It's a bit of a pedantic point but it does matter.

Erratta goes through QA. Crawford's tweets are just his musings while he's sitting on the John.

And regards motive-criticizing, you very blatantly started it.

And regards to shield master being good for clerics (and no other casters except maybe certain bards) is the opposite of a problem. It's only better for them with the newer ruling in the sense that it's less overpowering good for other classes.

[LudicSavant]

Yes, he changed his statement, but only in a non-official, non-annotated way.

This does not disagree with my stated stance at all. You are preaching to the choir.


Iteration implies that there's some kind of version control in play. Yes. The version control where Crawford says that the newer tweet is his Sage Advice position, and the older tweet is not. Nothing has to be super duper official for the word iteration to be appropriate.

My goodness. Is the position clear yet and can we move on?

[EvilAnagram]

This is not a thread about Jeremy Crawford tweets or explaining how iterations work.

It's about fighters. Please ensure further posts are about fighters.

[quark12000]

Sorry for the derail.

[EvilAnagram]

Sorry for the derail.

It happens.

[Mist_Wave]

Hoy Evilanagram,

so since tome of foes is out, what do you think of Yankees (Gith) as Eldritch Knights?

[EvilAnagram]

Hoy Evilanagram,

so since tome of foes is out, what do you think of Yankees (Gith) as Eldritch Knights?

The stat increases are perfect, and the extra spells and defenses take some pressure off of your spells known. It's pretty damn nice.

[Sno]

I like the guide. It is really helpful. Just got a few questions/remarks.

For two-weapon-fighting you say under feats:

Dual Wielder: Perfect for Two Weapon Fighting, which has been looking much better after recent mathematical analysis.

It is ranked blue which is good.

For fighting style you say:

Two Weapon Fighting is much better than early impressions suggested. The more difficult a creature is to hit, the more useful Two Weapon Fighting is. With Dual Wielder, it's even better.


I wonder where the recent mathematical analysis is :-)

Also. For shield users you rank shield master really high:

Shield Master: If you use a shield, this provides a nice blend of offensive and defensive boosts.

It is ranked sky blue.

Do you still think this still is the case after the changes where you can only use the shove after you've finished your attack action? I mean, you rarely get the benefit of knocking someone prone (one being action surge), and it can even be a hinderence for your party, especially with ranged members. You could also have potential situation where the enemy goes right after you, meaning your other melees don't even get any benefit. In which case, you have only reduced the speed of the enemy by half. As for the dex bonus, it only apply to dex saves that target only you, which means it almost never get used. Finally, in most cases, your dexterity save aren't that good, and resilient (dex), competes with resilient (wis). You can't have both. Personally I think shield master sucks.

[werescythe]

Would a Feral Tiefling be good for a Pirate Samurai fighter? Or would one of the other Tiefling subraces from MToF that offers DEX or STR be better?

Also I could be wrong but Rapid Strike works off of Fighting Spirit, correct?

Also what kind of weapon in the equipment list would count as a Katana? Could a Scimitar be "reskinned" for such a weapon?

[EvilAnagram]

I like the guide. It is really helpful. Just got a few questions/remarks.

For two-weapon-fighting you say under feats:

Dual Wielder: Perfect for Two Weapon Fighting, which has been looking much better after recent mathematical analysis.

It is ranked blue which is good.

For fighting style you say:

Two Weapon Fighting is much better than early impressions suggested. The more difficult a creature is to hit, the more useful Two Weapon Fighting is. With Dual Wielder, it's even better.


I wonder where the recent mathematical analysis is :-)
I don't remember precisely what happened to that post, but essentially the more difficult something is to hit, the more effective TWF is compared to other options. This is especially true before you get your third attack and in featless game.

I should probably update that in light of the fact that I no longer have access to that math.


Also. For shield users you rank shield master really high:

Shield Master: If you use a shield, this provides a nice blend of offensive and defensive boosts.

It is ranked sky blue.

Do you still think this still is the case after the changes where you can only use the shove after you've finished your attack action? I mean, you rarely get the benefit of knocking someone prone (one being action surge), and it can even be a hinderence for your party, especially with ranged members. You could also have potential situation where the enemy goes right after you, meaning your other melees don't even get any benefit. In which case, you have only reduced the speed of the enemy by half. As for the dex bonus, it only apply to dex saves that target only you, which means it almost never get used. Finally, in most cases, your dexterity save aren't that good, and resilient (dex), competes with resilient (wis). You can't have both. Personally I think shield master sucks.

I was making that assumption before the tweet went out. Because you can split up your attacks during a turn and don't have to make them all at once, I continue to read it as allowing "attack, push, attack."

Also, forced movement is nice. Pushing an enemy off a cliff or into a spell effect is always useful.

"Dexterity saves that target only you" includes many traps, monster abilities, and a few spells.

Also, the competition between Resilient Wis and Dex is a point in SM's favor. You can only take Resilience once, so take Wis and SM to cover both saves.

[EvilAnagram]

Would a Feral Tiefling be good for a Pirate Samurai fighter? Or would one of the other Tiefling subraces from MToF that offers DEX or STR be better?
Feral would work perfectly well. I have not perused MToF, personally, but if something offers STR or a decent defensive ability, it's fine.



Yes.

[QUOTE=werescythe;23388480Also what kind of weapon in the equipment list would count as a Katana? Could a Scimitar be "reskinned" for such a weapon?
Longsword. The katana is just a longsword that was specialized for use as a quick-and-dirty sidearm against moderately-armored foes. Later, during the Edo period, it was extremely useful as a gentleman's sword because no one was ever armored at all, and it had such a long and agile cutting edge.

For D&D purposes, it's a longsword. An odachi would be a great sword, and a wakizashi would be a scimitar.

[werescythe]

Feral would work perfectly well. I have not perused MToF, personally, but if something offers STR or a decent defensive ability, it's fine.

Longsword. The katana is just a longsword that was specialized for use as a quick-and-dirty sidearm against moderately-armored foes. Later, during the Edo period, it was extremely useful as a gentleman's sword because no one was ever armored at all, and it had such a long and agile cutting edge.

For D&D purposes, it's a longsword. An odachi would be a great sword, and a wakizashi would be a scimitar.

Yeah, I kind of thought that might be the case when I looked over the equipment list, still it was worth asking. :smallbiggrin:

The Glasya subrace could be very useful I think. Sure it still gives +2 to CHR (which could be handy with Elegant Courtier) it also gives +1 DEX. It then swaps out the Tiefling's standard spells for: Minor Illusion, Disguise Self, and Invisibility. :smallsmile:

I suppose I could also go with the Zariel subrace, which is +2 CHR, +1 STR, while giving the spells: Thaumaturgy, a second level Searing Smite and Branding Smite. Though I'm kind of tempted to just stick with DEX for the extra AC (and Defensive Duelist). :smallwink:

[Yunru]

While I won't disagree with the overall rating for Monks, I feel Kensei in particular should be slightly higher for archers (maybe black?), given that you've very little use for your bonus action and getting +1d4 to your attack damage isn't a bad boost given it's costless (other than the level investment). You also get a minor boost to speed, which is always useful for staying out of your opponent's engagement range (plus your Ki uses also help for escaping tricky situations).

It still only deals slightly more damage than a Crossbow Expert who took three levels of Rogue instead (~42 DPR vs ~41 DPR), but it uses less feats and has better nova potential. Of course, if you get extra sources of attacks from the likes of Haste the Monk dip pulls ahead to a notable amount. (And on the other hand, if you get extra sources of damage, it starts to lag behind.)

[TakeitVillain]

I’m just quoting this:

[CENTER]An Illustrated Manual for Inflicting Violence
Fantastic Fighters

Tiefling: Not really Fighter material. Okay for an Eldritch Knight, I guess.

Do you think you’ll add Mordenkainen’s races to your guides. Because there are some awesome races, not to mention Zariel Tiefling for fighters.

[mcabel]

Hi, I'm trying to optimize a Barb3/FighterX...HalfOrc with pointbuy.

From what I hear champion brings on the crits while battlemaster brings more raw power and versatility. I'm not that into making a crit build unless the other features make it the top choice anyway. But I do not know if Battlemaster has sinergy with barb 3. I'm considering Totem:wolf for the 3 levels of barb, and will probably go with GWF (and I'm undecided if I should go polearm master or focus on GreatSword)but please let me know if there are better choices.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: what about the violence done to our poor Forum Rules?