Epic level rules question

[Monk of love]

So I am confused about epic level it says once a character reaches character level of 21 or higher they are epic

Characters don’t gain any new class features, because there aren’t any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

Would this mean a la 5 and wizard 15 no longer gains more spells per day and no more spells known>

I'm inclined to believe it's referring to class level here rather than character level but is there any source to back it up?

[gooddragon1]

So I am confused about epic level it says once a character reaches character level of 21 or higher they are epic

Characters don’t gain any new class features, because there aren’t any new class features described for these levels. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character gains epic levels. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

Would this mean a la 5 and wizard 15 no longer gains more spells per day and no more spells known>

I'm inclined to believe it's referring to class level here rather than character level but is there any source to back it up?

No, because you are not wizard level 21 yet. You must have a level of 21 or higher in that class for that chart to apply. Even if you were Cleric 15/Wizard 15, taking a level in either would provide benefits as per the class rules. However, you would also receive the epic save and attack bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#epicSaveBonus) as though you were a 30th level character moving to 31st. At Wizard 20/Cleric 15, adding a level of wizard would then reference the chart while adding a level of cleric would not.

Also:


Each time the wizard achieves a new level, he or she learns two new spells of any spell levels that he or she can cast (according to his or her new level).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicWizard

As for EL adjustments... I'm not sure. I'm almost certain racial HD would count, but EL+? ... I don't think it would (and this discourse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90018-Question-about-ECL-and-Epic-level) provides some insight into why that would probably be the case).

[AvatarVecna]

Once you go past the level chart provided by a base class, you use the epic rules to determine how your class features advance; if you haven't passed that point, you aren't using the epic rules to determine your class features. However, if you're beyond ECL 20, you start using the epic rules for other things, such as BAB and saves; while saves all go at the fastest saves ever go, BAB slows down to the slowest anybody gets BAB...and the increased BAB can't get you any more iterative attacks.

[Âmesang]

So as an example, a minotaur 6/barbarian 14 should cease to gain any more base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses; from his next level and beyond he's considered "epic" and would thus use the new BaB/save progression.

(The level adjustment only counting towards required experienced and starting wealth when necessary.)

[Khedrac]

The main thing that Epic classes supply that non-epic classes don't is bonus Epic feats.
Once a character reaches 21 they can take epic feats - but only with their standard feat slots or from classes that specifically grant epic bonus feats.
E.g. A fighter going from level 23 to level 24 gets a bonus epic fighter feat and can choose any fighter feat (epic or not). They also get a regular (leveling) feat which can be any feat they qualify for - epic or normal.
But, a Fighter 13/Barbarian 10 going to Fighter 14/Barbarian 10 gets the same options for his (or her) level feat, but the fighter bonus feat (form fighter 14) cannot be epic.

[Curmudgeon]

That's correct. Minotaur 6 racial HD and 14 class HD top you out for pre-Epic rules, and thereafter you fall under the Epic rules for BAB and saves.

[Rubik]

The main thing that Epic classes supply that non-epic classes don't is bonus Epic feats.
Once a character reaches 21 they can take epic feats - but only with their standard feat slots or from classes that specifically grant epic bonus feats.
E.g. A fighter going from level 23 to level 24 gets a bonus epic fighter feat and can choose any fighter feat (epic or not). They also get a regular (leveling) feat which can be any feat they qualify for - epic or normal.
But, a Fighter 13/Barbarian 10 going to Fighter 14/Barbarian 10 gets the same options for his (or her) level feat, but the fighter bonus feat (form fighter 14) cannot be epic.The problem with taking levels in epic classes is that, by and large, epic feats suck far more than non-epic feats that aren't in Core. There's maybe a handful of non-casting feats that are worth taking for a non-spellcaster...though caster's have much better choices for their epic feats, like always.

[Bronk]

There are a few exceptions too... Racial Hit Dice continue to gain BAB and saves as if they were still non-epic, and dragons are considered epic when they become 'old', regardless of HD.

[Âmesang]

Yeah, dragons get their own super special awesome rules regarding epic (free Improved Spell Capacity!). Though I've long since house-ruled that the oldest "True" dragons have damage reduction 20/epic… because going from 20/magic to 15/epic just seems odd to me (and doesn't step on the 25/epic that epic dragons have).

(…no wonder I stopped using the word "epic" in the names of epic spells I wrote. %*#$!!)

[gooddragon1]

So as an example, a minotaur 6/barbarian 14 should cease to gain any more base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses; from his next level and beyond he's considered "epic" and would thus use the new BaB/save progression.


Adding a Second Class

When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class. Just as with standard multiclassing, adding the second class does not confer some of the benefits for a 1st-level character, including maximum hit points from the first Hit Die, quadruple the per-level skill points, starting equipment, starting gold, or an animal companion. An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, an epic character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.

It's a good thing I didn't ever reach epic levels. I did not realize you could not add a second class to reach full BAB. Monster HD however are just weird like that :/

[Âmesang]

Whatever you have at 20th-level is all you'll ever have there on out — that's why epic prestige classes don't have a base-attack/base-save progression.

That's why I planned on my long-running sorceress to go (effectively) sorceress 16/archmage 4 instead of sorceress 15/archmage 5: at 20th-level she'll have the same skills and spellcasting capabilities, but by waiting to take her last archmage level at 21st her BaB will be +10, Fort/Ref +6, and Will +14; slightly (significantly?) better than the +9/+6/+6/+13 one might expect from a sorceress 15/archmage 5.

[DarkSonic1337]

The no more BAB thing is also why gishes want to hit 16 BAB (I mean...sure you could just get divine power, which gets funny in epic).

Btw just to be clear. If I cast Divine Power at caster level 21 and I'm a level 21 character (just class levels, no racial HD or level adjustment):

1. My BAB becomes 21, and I get 4 attacks at 21/16/11/6

and

2. I add my 1 epic BAB on top of this.

is that correct?

[Rubik]

The no more BAB thing is also why gishes want to hit 16 BAB (I mean...sure you could just get divine power, which gets funny in epic).

Btw just to be clear. If I cast Divine Power at caster level 21 and I'm a level 21 character (just class levels, no racial HD or level adjustment):

1. My BAB becomes 21, and I get 4 attacks at 21/16/11/6

and

2. I add my 1 epic BAB on top of this.

is that correct?That's correct, yes. If you're level 300 and cast Divine Power? You've got +300 BAB and +140 EAB. And they stack.

[Âmesang]

As an aside, the paperback version of the Player's Handbook capped divine power's BaB at +20 (June 2006, p.224), however I recall that cap being removed from the SRD. Interesting, no?

(Though this version includes half-of-the-required errata for polymorph any object, adding in the necessary spells that it can replicate… yet still retaining the now non-existent transmute water to dust in that same list. Heh.)

[AvatarVecna]

As an aside, the paperback version of the Player's Handbook capped divine power's BaB at +20 (June 2006, p.224), however I recall that cap being removed from the SRD. Interesting, no?

(Though this version includes half-of-the-required errata for polymorph any object, adding in the necessary spells that it can replicate… yet still retaining the now non-existent transmute water to dust in that same list. Heh.)

The date on that source doesn't surprise me: originally, the 3.5 Player's Handbook originally came out in 2003, and the SRD is based on that book (as well as a few others). It doesn't surprise me that Wizard's tried to sneak some fixes into later releases of the Player's Handbook. Keep in mind that this is the edition WotC ****ed up so bad they had to remake it in the middle; we've always known they didn't know what they were doing making such a rigidly-ruled system, and we've always had proof. This is just another thing to add to the pile.

[Âmesang]

A pile that should be smote with a +4 unholy check toee of editors bane! :smallbiggrin: