Powering up Charisma

[Bobby Baratheon]

So my group and I are starting up a new campaign, and I figured it would be nifty (and fun!) to play a gish-y sorceror. After some soul-searching, I decided instead to go with a sorceror built around fear effects (with the plan to eventually prestige into Dread Witch and Abjurant Champion). We're starting at level five, and I want to beef up my charisma as much as possible, and anything that could help with fear effects. There aren't any hard limits on sources we can use, as long as it's not TOO cheesy. So far these are the things I've considered (other than spells, and skills - I'm thinking more about race, templates and feats here):
-Star Elf with Magic-blooded template
-Dreadful wrath feat
-Nymph's Kiss feat
-Unnatural Aura trait (+2 to intimidate and fear spells DC, but -2 to any animal related skill checks)

We each get one free 18, which I'm obviously putting into Charisma, so right now I'm looking at a 22 Charisma.
How else can I push my Charisma through the stratosphere, or enhance my fear effects?

[Deophaun]

If you're doing a Sorcerer built around fear, you could go Dread Necromancer instead. That would give you a scaling Fear Aura and access to a Ghostly Visage familiar which will also have a scaling fear-based gaze attack. Cross-class ranks into UMD and fill spellcasting holes with knowstones.

Edit: And for boosting, the veil of allure in the MIC might be appropriate for your build, especially if you go the DN route.

[xyianth]

Fear comes in two main vectors: mundane demoralizing and spell-based fear. The best avenue of spell-based fear is kelgore's grave mist + fell frighten spell + slaymate + arcane thesis. This allows you to create SR:no, save:no, AoE fear effects from 2nd level slots and up. (1st level slots with versatile spellcaster) The best avenue of mundane demoralizing is imperious command + intimidating rage + dreadful wrath + never outnumbered skill trick + fearsome armor. This lets you cower several foes every encounter by intimidation checks.

As for improving charisma, the draconic template, the half-fey template, the phrenic creature template, and the primordial giant template are all good templates that boost charisma. Half-elves can also take 3 levels in half-elf paragon and 3 levels in human paragon for a combined +4 ability boost. And of course the old venerable dragonwrought desert kobold trick is a +3 charisma boost.

[stanprollyright]

If you want a gishy sorcerer that specializes in fear effects you should be a Bard.

[Azoth]

If you can stomach it the Unseelie Fey Template is LA +0 and gives +2 Charisma. If you represent Winter and gain the Winter's Chill ability you give all living non-fey withing 5ft of you a penalty equal to your charisma modier to all saving throws.

[Hiro Quester]

If you want a gishy sorcerer that specializes in fear effects you should be a Bard.

This. A bard with Sublime chord at levels 11-12, with dread witch or dread necromancer after to progress casting is basically sorcerer casting on a bard base. Better HP, better AC, and awesome melee feats (snowflake wardance!).

Person Man has a good guide to a fear-based bard here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?67232-Fear-the-Bard!!!

Sirine's Grace bard spell spell both buffs your cha and dex, and adds your +CHA as a deflection bonus to your AC, which helps when wading into battle scaring your enemies.

The venerable dragonwrought kobold trick will get you +3 to all mental stats. Plus it qualifies for awaken frightful presence, which makes enemies panicked each time you fly over enemies, as well as when you attack or charge.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Bard/Sublime Chord is probably a more optimized and direct way to go, but I've never been particularly keen on being a bard. I'm also envisioning this character as "does not totally suck at combat, but is a full caster" rather than a straight on gish.

Venerable dragonwrought kobold would be interesting, but it does reek ever so slightly of cheese.

Unseelie fey is intriguing; the template I found online (hopefully the right one) has some interesting perks. Winter chill debuffs saves within 5 feet by my Charisma modifier, which I guess could be useful in melee or maybe an interrogation-type situation. Vernal touch would make the party into a sleepless automaton if we needed to. The vulnerability to iron sucks, but as I'm starting at level 5 I would have DR 5/iron. Not a terrible trade. Also, flight is pretty awesome, as is the +4 to Intimidate. I kinda feel like maybe the Con penalty might outweigh the benefits of an extra +2 to Cha; I'm already at 22 Charisma and losing hit points and fortitude save might not be the best way to go.

Note: I'm looking at the unseelie fey template on reamlshelp. Feel free to correct me if this is actually some homebrew imitation.


Also - thank you for advice!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Is there anyway I could get Siren's Grace added to my spell list? That does sound pretty useful.

Edit: From the perspective of a sorceror. Would a knowstone do the trick, or does it specifically require bardic music?

[Darrin]

Is there anyway I could get Siren's Grace added to my spell list?

Prestige Bard 2, but you'd lose a caster level and would probably have to spend a feat on Apprentice: Perform. Or Wyrm Wizard 2 (still loses a caster level).

[Flickerdart]

If you can buy off LA, half-fey is amazing. Can't beat at-will Charm Person, and the +CHA doesn't hurt your goals.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Wyrm wizard is interesting, but it says you need to be able to prepare and cast 1st level arcane spells; as a spontaneous caster (sorceror) I don't think I'd qualify.
I'd rather not hassle with LA; even after having looked at it for years I still get uneasy with the minutia of it.
At the moment, with my current plans, I have:
-24 charisma (18 base, +2 Star Elf, +2 Magic-blooded, +2 Unseelie Fey).
-Nymph's Kiss sorta meshes fluff-wise, and it adds a "+2 circumstance bonus on all Charisma-related checks". Does this count for skill checks only, or on things like spell DC? If that gets added to spell DC (as a Charisma based caster), awesome.
-Winter Chill (sup.; all living non-fey within 5 ft take a morale bonus equal to my charisma modifier on saves, so -7). Seems like it'd pretty useful in melee if I can use a spell to force a save.
-Dreadful Wrath: IIRC, it makes enemies within a certain radius (20ft, I believe) make a will save whenever I make a full attack, charge, or cast a spell to avoid being shaken for one minute. Seems like it would stack nicely with Winter Chill (beatstick engages enemy, I circle around or fly above it, charge/spell/attack and if I'm close enough we're looking at a DC 19 [10+1/2 level {in this case 5, so +2}+7 cha +2 Nymph's kiss], while the adjacent enemy gets a nice -7 penalty to his will check).
-Intimidate: With synergies and traits, its around a +22 IIRC. Good way to escalate fear conditions from Dreadful wrath.
-Scare/Cause fear spells: Ditto.
-60 flight speed (average) from Unseelie fey
-Could use magic missile, fell frighten and versatile spellcaster (to create the third level slot; I only have second level spells at level 5) to get another fear distribution method. Burning hands could have some potential here if I'm facing a squad of mooks, but I think magic missile is the better option.
-Also, Glitterdust. Because it's awesome.

Does this synergize well or am I misinterpreting some of these options? I'm imagining a highly mobile, airborne flanker (in the tactical sense, not the mechanical sense) who can send enemies running and/or blind them with glitterdust. My friend (a bard) and I did a quick simulation, and we managed to beat a manticore pretty handily. We blinded it with Glitterdust, sniped it with firearms from cover (rudimentary firearms exist in our campaign), and all-round curb-stomped it.

EDIT: To boost AC, I'm investing in a feycraft caster mithral chain shirt (when one adjective isn't enough!), magic armor, and shield. So if I have time to prep, +12 and my +4 Dex bonus (I rolled high) to AC.

[Flickerdart]

Wyrm wizard is interesting, but it says you need to be able to prepare and cast 1st level arcane spells; as a spontaneous caster (sorceror) I don't think I'd qualify.
You can take Arcane Preparation to gain the ability to prepare spells as a sorcerer.

[Bobby Baratheon]

True. By chance, what's the duration and casting time on Siren's Grace? It might be worth a lost caster level and feat, or it might not, but the applications are most intrigueing.

[Flickerdart]

Sirine's Grace is standard action, rounds per level.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Just looked it up - that's pretty awesome. I noticed it's also a druid 5 spell - is there an easier path to getting it by going that route (as opposed to bard 4)? The cost of 1 caster level and a feat isn't too bad for what would end up being a +11 to AC, though.

[Hiro Quester]

A custom Runestaff might be able to help you learn a spell like Sirine's grace.

But --not to belabor the point--"does not totally suck at combat, but is a full caster" is basically a bard/SC. Sorcerer casting (or very close to it), plus all the extra bard goodness.

Plus spells that are 6th rank for bard are 6th rank for SC, even if sorcerer does not get them until 9th (so you can get irresistible dance at 13th level, for a big one).

I played a Bard/SC/Heartfire Fanner/Abjurant Champion to level 20, and was often the party's main arcane caster (our Wizard was not always able to play). I outgunned a sorcercer or two in a caster fight (mainly through Battle Magic Perception and counterspelling).

I also managed to "not suck in combat". Thanks to a high dex and persisted Sirine's Grace (metamagic shenanigans) I had an AC in the high 50s, a to-hit bonus in the mid 50s or higher (depending on buffs, such as using Snowflake wardance, slippers of battle dancing, gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, a wand of Heroics for free temp fighter feats, TWF, and dragonfire inspiration shenanigans)), and once managed to deal more than 250 damage in a single full attack round. And playing Inspire Greatness on the magical horn that is part of the Regalia of the Hero I could give myself (or our party tank, as needed) a bonus 50 temporary HPs before combat. Hit points is the weakness of the bard; but that's even worse for a sorcerer.

This was also thanks to obscenely powering up Cha. My DM let me earn the Fire Souled template, for instance, that adds +4 untyped bonus to CHA, which is another possibility for you. (Dragon Magazine 314 as I recall; the same issue as the HeartFire Fanner PrC.)

[Darrin]

I'd rather not hassle with LA; even after having looked at it for years I still get uneasy with the minutia of it.


You can take half-fey as a Savage Progression template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (two levels), although it slows down your sorcerer casting. Not sure if you can use LA buyoff with those template classes... probably not.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Mid 50's to hit? That's tarrasque level attack right there. Nice. I think I touched on it earlier though - bard/SC is probably the most optimized mechanical method of achieving my aims, but in all honestly I simply don't like the class from a roleplaying perspective. I understand why others do, and that not all bards are Elan, but it's simply not my cup of tea. At some point I'm sure I'll play a bard, and I'll probably grudgingly enjoy it.

How does a runestaff work, exactly? Also, what other benefits does the Fire Souled template convey?

Also, @Darrin:
Yeah I think that might be a bit much overloading on fey for my DM to agree. I think two templates is a good place to stop before getting into Man-bear-pig territory.

[Hiro Quester]

Fire souled is an acquired template, conferred by participating in a ritual conducted by the Brotherhood of the Bearning Heart. It confers a number of other benefits, including (from memory) a haste self ability, the leadership feat, the fire subtype, immunity to stun and daze, and an ability to block a creature's access to its cha-based abilities with an "overwhelming passion" attack.

It's +3LA, though. But my DM allowed me to adapt the Heartfire Fanner Prc to be 8levels Instead of 5, such that this template's abilities were acquired slowly, some at each level, as I progressed in this PRC. And we took out Leadership and a couple of its other abilities, in exchange for HFF's progress of bardic music and casting.


A runestaff contains the essence of 3-5 arcane spells. By attuning yourself to a runestaff, a 10 minute ritual, you trade at its spells as known spells that you can cast. See the MIC.

For spontaneous casters, it basically enables you to know more spells. And with a ten-minute attunement to change spells known during the day. I had one staff for my morning and mid-afternoon buff routine, for spells I wanted running all the time, and then another to attune to after that routine, for spells I wanted ready during combat encounters. And another for social-focused situations.

For a bard with UMD maxed out, it enabled me to know some sorc/wiz spells I would not have access to otherwise. For a sorcerer, it can expand your spells known list in useful ways.

Oh, but sorcerers don't get UMD as a class skill, so using a runestaff with another class's spell requires a DC20 UMD check. (Sorry, I know you don't like the bard role playing flavor, but this flexibility from in-class skills and skill points to spend is another reason bards are fun to play.)

[Deophaun]

Oh, but sorcerers don't get UMD as a class skill, so using a runestaff with another class's spell requires a DC20 UMD check. (Sorry, I know you don't like the bard role playing flavor, but this flexibility from in-class skills and skill points to spend is another reason bards are fun to play.)
It's not that hard for a Sorcerer to reliably hit a DC 20. Cross-class a single rank, spend a week in an Otyugh Hole for Iron Will, then pick up the Hardened Criminal feat and tie it to UMD. Cap it off with a Circlet of Persuasion and you're done if you have at least a +7 Cha mod.

Cost is 7,500 gp, a skill point, and a feat, but you can put any spell you want on your list with a knowstone.

[Socratov]

Please remember that if you go bard and take the feat snowflake wardance (meshes well with unseelie fey) you use CHA for attack and damage. So, not only are you a literally terrifying presence on the battlefield, you also deal death and murder.

[Darrin]

Please remember that if you go bard and take the feat snowflake wardance (meshes well with unseelie fey) you use CHA for attack and damage.

Attacks only (hence why I think it's a trap, and prefer taking Arcane Strike instead). For damage, you'd want Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (12000 GP, Dragon Compendium Vol. 1).

[Rebel7284]

Unseelee Fey is always evil and Nymph's Kiss is exalted.

You can argue the whole "always doesn't actually mean always" but may be worth running past the DM.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I could probably talk the DM into letting me treat UMD as a class skill. With the sorceror's skill list, that's not an unreasonable request. If not, I'll just slap another flaw on and go with that.

As for alignment, you only have to have an "intimate relationship" with a good-aligned fey to take the feat. There are no other prereqs.

Roleplaying justification: I started off as a typically evil unseelie fey, got a nymph girlfriend, switched to neutral from her influence. I don't believe you lose unseelie powers for changing alignments. Also, the DM doesn't particularly care about alignment restrictions with a few exceptions (paladin ,etc).

I like Arcane strike and Versatile spellcaster just for the versatility. If I really, really need to pack a wallop in one round, I can by burning zero level spell slots to make larger ones, and with larger ones getting a nice boost to damage and to hit. Not super efficient (it does burn a LOT of spell slots if you really want a good bonus), but a nice option to have if you need it.

[Socratov]

Attacks only (hence why I think it's a trap, and prefer taking Arcane Strike instead). For damage, you'd want Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (12000 GP, Dragon Compendium Vol. 1).

or get power attack, snowflake wardance and the gauntlets, you can mix it up any way you want.

[Hiro Quester]

Power attack gets most of its advantage from using a weapon two-handed. Snowflake wardance works only with weapons held in one hand. They don't work that well together.

[Deophaun]

As for alignment, you only have to have an "intimate relationship" with a good-aligned fey to take the feat. There are no other prereqs.

Nymph's Kiss is an [Exalted] feat, which requires your character to be Exalted in turn. If you ever perform an Evil act, you fall and lose access to the feat.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Oh - oops. Not sure how I missed that. I'll bring that up with the DM and see if there's an agreement we can come to on that. If not, well goodbye Nymph's Kiss. Any room for repentant unseelie?

[Bobby Baratheon]

I ended up going with a human instead of a star elf, and taking three levels of human paragon and two levels of sorceror. So now I can get UMD as a class skill (adaptive learning), get the +2 to cha from level three of human paragon instead of star elf (and get to avoid the Con hit, and having to be an elf), a lot more skill points, bonus feats, and only one caster level lost.

EDIT: I still used the unseelie and magic blooded templates.

[Flickerdart]

A magic-blooded unseelie fey is a paragon of humanity? Oy vey...

[Hiro Quester]

That is a bit of an incompatibility.

Unseelie fey are:
"mixed creatures [that] often resemble things out of nightmares or a mad wizard's experiment... oddities generally are spurned by their non-fey ancestor's society.

Racial paragons are ideal, pure and exemplary examples of their race:


Racial paragons are, as their name suggests, nearly ideal examples of the strengths and abilities of the character's race. Unlike members of other classes, however, racial paragons are more than merely powerful individuals. They are strong in all the ways that their race is strong, while still vulnerable in the ways that their race is vulnerable. Beyond that, they possess powers or capabilities that supersede those of normal members of their race. While any elf might rise in power, prestige, and (in game terms) level, most do so by gaining levels in the standard character classes—only a few are so much in tune with their heritage and racial abilities that they become racial paragons.

The one clause that might allow this is this:

As a general rule, a member of a subrace can take levels in the standard race's paragon class unless a specific paragon class exists for the subrace.

Does unseelie fay human count as a human sub race?

Has your DM approved this combination?

[Socratov]

Power attack gets most of its advantage from using a weapon two-handed. Snowflake wardance works only with weapons held in one hand. They don't work that well together.

Not optimal in PA sense, but a source of damage none the less, without running the risk of missing that PA inherently carries.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Yeah I kind of fast talked my DM into that one. Made the argument that although he is partially fey, he has chosen to embrace his human heritage and has sought to mold himself after humanities highest ideals. I recognize that it's not a perfect fit, but my DM was okay with it. I'll try to repay him by not overly abusing the combination. Wouldn't be allowed in most campaigns, but I'll take it.

If he changes his mind, I'll probably drop unseelie fey. It feels a bit overpowered, and I really like the flexibility human paragon gives me.

[Lagren]

There's also the Heartwarder prestige class from Faiths and Pantheons, if your DM is okay with 3.0 material. (And if Sune exists in your campaign/another suitable deity of passion.) Full casting of any type, +5 Cha over nine levels, a few other minor benefits - most notably another +2 to any Cha-based skill check. Turns you into a fey at 10. Bard's the expected entry so far as I can tell, since it requires Exotic proficiency with the whip.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Heartwarder seems decently good, especially since it has 3/4 BAB and no lost caster levels. The feat tax is pretty stiff on this one though - dodge, mobility, spell focus, and proficiency with a whip is a lot of feats to invest for a total of +5 to Cha and +2 to charisma checks. If the feata tax wasn't so high, I'd dip three levels to net a +2 to Charisma and the +2 to Charisma checks.

[Deophaun]

Heartwarder seems decently good, especially since it has 3/4 BAB and no lost caster levels. The feat tax is pretty stiff on this one though - dodge, mobility, spell focus, and proficiency with a whip is a lot of feats to invest for a total of +5 to Cha and +2 to charisma checks. If the feata tax wasn't so high, I'd dip three levels to net a +2 to Charisma and the +2 to Charisma checks.
Plus, the +5 bonus to Charisma is an inherent bonus. The class feature is just a free Tome of Influence and Leadership, although you don't have to wait until level 17 or 18 to start gaining the benefits.

[Lagren]

Heartwarder seems decently good, especially since it has 3/4 BAB and no lost caster levels. The feat tax is pretty stiff on this one though - dodge, mobility, spell focus, and proficiency with a whip is a lot of feats to invest for a total of +5 to Cha and +2 to charisma checks. If the feata tax wasn't so high, I'd dip three levels to net a +2 to Charisma and the +2 to Charisma checks.

True, but if you happen to be taking Spelldancer for its ridiculous Metamagic shenanigans, or Swiftblade for its Haste-based awesomeness, then Dodge and Mobility are shared taxes. If you were a bard anyway, then that means only one feat is invested on top of what you were already doing.

Link to Swiftblade:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

[Waazraath]

So my group and I are starting up a new campaign, and I figured it would be nifty (and fun!) to play a gish-y sorceror. After some soul-searching, I decided instead to go with a sorceror built around fear effects (with the plan to eventually prestige into Dread Witch and Abjurant Champion). We're starting at level five, and I want to beef up my charisma as much as possible, and anything that could help with fear effects. There aren't any hard limits on sources we can use, as long as it's not TOO cheesy. So far these are the things I've considered (other than spells, and skills - I'm thinking more about race, templates and feats here):
-Star Elf with Magic-blooded template
-Dreadful wrath feat
-Nymph's Kiss feat
-Unnatural Aura trait (+2 to intimidate and fear spells DC, but -2 to any animal related skill checks)

We each get one free 18, which I'm obviously putting into Charisma, so right now I'm looking at a 22 Charisma.
How else can I push my Charisma through the stratosphere, or enhance my fear effects?

Worth mentioning two long duration spells, that increase cha significantly:
- Inner beauty, fiendish codex 2 (bard 4) - 10 min/lvl
- Righteous Aura, spell compendium (paladin 4) - 1 hour/lvl

Get one of 'em through liberal use of extra spell, prestige bard, UMD, or any other ways you use normally to get access to spells not on your list. Both give a sacred bonus, those are quite rare. Just get the one easiest to get, or the one that you like most (both have other effects as well)

[Hiro Quester]

True, but if you happen to be taking Spelldancer for its ridiculous Metamagic shenanigans, or Swiftblade for its Haste-based awesomeness, then Dodge and Mobility are shared taxes. If you were a bard anyway, then that means only one feat is invested on top of what you were already doing.

Link to Swiftblade:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Every since noticing Heartwarder's prerequisite when this was posted yesterday I have been strongly considering a Bard7/Swiftblade2/Sublime Chord2/ Swiftblade(X)/Heartwarder(X-9). That could be an awesome combination. I'm now trying to figure out what X should be.

[Lagren]

Every since noticing Heartwarder's prerequisite when this was posted yesterday I have been strongly considering a Bard7/Swiftblade2/Sublime Chord2/ Swiftblade(X)/Heartwarder(X-9). That could be an awesome combination. I'm now trying to figure out what X should be.

How are you managing Sublime Chord at 10? Primary Contact only works on one skill: you need both Know: Arcana and Listen 13.

Assuming that's just a goof, Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 2/ Swiftblade(X)/Heartwarder(8-X) definitely could work. The established Swiftblade breakpoints are at 3, 6 and 9, since there's caster level losses at 1, 4, 7, 10. With Sublime Chord, you can eat one caster loss between levels 11-20 and still make nines: that pushes me towards Swiftblade +3/Heartwarder 5. Heartwarder 5 is kind of awkward though: the kiss ability is nicely thematic, but we end up with an odd-numbered Cha bonus. I might try to wedge Endurance and Combat Casting into the feat set so we can dip Spelldancer 1.

Let's see about the feats for that:
Human, 1st: Dodge, Mobility
3rd: Snowflake Wardance
6th: Extend Spell
9th: Combat Casting
12th: Spell Focus: Enchantment
15th: Endurance
18th: Persistent Spell

It fits! Persisting everything comes a bit late, but that just means we're less likely to get books thrown at us. We make 9s, plus we get to use a bunch of cool Swiftblade stuff, plus we get the broken-in-half Spelldance ability. The build is Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade +3/Heartwarder 2/Spelldancer 1/Heartwarder +2. (Or to summarize, Bard 7/Swiftblade 6/Sublime Chord 2/Heartwarder 4/Spelldancer 1.)

[Hiro Quester]

That was a goof. Thanks for fixing it.

The rest looks good. Spelldancer is a good addition. Though spell dancing for a persistent spell takes a very high CON mod. Or a wand of lesser restoration, I guess.

On a bard base, I'd always take melodic casting over combat casting. But my DM has accepted it as equivalent for prerequisite.

[Lagren]

That was a goof. Thanks for fixing it.

The rest looks good. Spelldancer is a good addition. Though spell dancing for a persistent spell takes a very high CON mod. Or a wand of lesser restoration, I guess.

On a bard base, I'd always take melodic casting over combat casting. But my DM has accepted it as equivalent for prerequisite.

Actually, what you need is a wand of Sheltered Vitality. (Cleric 3/Druid 4, from Libris Mortis.) It's a 1 minute/CL spell that grants immunity to ability damage or drain, as well as fatigue/exhaustion. Explicitly "from any source." Yep. One or two charges per day should suffice.