The appeal of Pandemonium?

[Inevitability]

I've seen people ask why any given person would choose to be evil if they are going to end up in some horrible afterlife anyway. A common answer is that those afterlives often offer something an evil person might want (The Nine Hells are great if you're a power-obsessed plotter, the Abyss allows you to indulge in whatever vice you embody), but I've always wondered why anyone would want to go to Pandemonium.

This lovely plane is dark, and windstorms prevent you from speaking or thinking rationally. There are only a few gods with their realms here, and the only real reason to go there seems to be the thousands of hidden vaults on its lowest layer.

So why would anyone be CE/CN, knowing they would end up here? Do only insane people go to Pandemonium with the others ending up in Limbo and the Abyss? Or is there some hidden appeal to the plane that I'm missing?

[Ashtagon]

If you don't see the appeal of Pandemonium, then congratulations -- you aren't chaotic evil!

[Uncle Pine]

An alternative for CE/CN people aware of the fact that they'll end up in Pandemonium (Klukkku the CE idiotic pillager doesn't fall in this category) and don't like the idea but still want to enjoy a life of Chaotic Evilness/Neutrality could be seeking immortality in one way or another.

[Segev]

That's actually a very good point and question, Dire_Stirge. I can conceive of a particular expression of CN with E tendencies which would enjoy it, so let's start there. CN people tend to be individualists to the point of iconoclasm, valuing their own freedom and agency above nearly all else. With Evil tendencies, this lends itself to outright sociopathy; they don't delight in others' suffering, nor get thrills from exerting themselves as masters over others, but they do tend to view other people as, at best, sentient tools to be used and potentially discarded for their own aims.

In Pandemonium, the maddening winds are an isolating feature. Other beings, less strong-willed than you, are reduced to mad tools to be used up. You don't have to interact with them and can ignore them if you want to, and they have a hard time harassing you without moving to overt violence. Which you can deal with quickly, at least, rather than having to put up with their prattle.

But that's only one kind of CN with E tendencies.

The guy who just was a little TOO selfish in his rejection of external standards probably wouldn't enjoy it too much. It's not like CN people are inherently antisocial and uncharismatic, and even a slightly sinister bent to their free-wheeling nature doesn't mean they hate dealing with people. Nor that they crave and seek out madness.

Every Evil has some element of arrogance to it. The sense of might making right. It has to, because Evil beings are only constrained by what can stop them. It might be the force of law or the rules of the game, or it might be fear of the bigger demon up the street, but the only thing stopping them from doing whatever they want to whomever they want is that knowledge of the consequences should they try, or the actuality of the force stopping them from even trying.

Thus, perhaps, the Evil tainting the CN person is that arrogance that they have a stronger will and will prevail where others fail. Pandemonium whips the chaos down from Limbo into its own planar caves with the madness-inducing winds. It makes reality harder to reshape because it's harder to CONCENTRATE. So only the best minds can bring THEIR brand of "sanity" to bear on the caverns of Pandemonium.

These twisting, inhospitable, noise-drowning caves also make exquisite hiding places. The CN with E tendencies who has made enemies that might follow him into the afterlife may take solace in knowing that he will never be found...unless he wants to be.

[Inevitability]

That's actually a very good point and question, Dire_Stirge. I can conceive of a particular expression of CN with E tendencies which would enjoy it, so let's start there. CN people tend to be individualists to the point of iconoclasm, valuing their own freedom and agency above nearly all else. With Evil tendencies, this lends itself to outright sociopathy; they don't delight in others' suffering, nor get thrills from exerting themselves as masters over others, but they do tend to view other people as, at best, sentient tools to be used and potentially discarded for their own aims.

In Pandemonium, the maddening winds are an isolating feature. Other beings, less strong-willed than you, are reduced to mad tools to be used up. You don't have to interact with them and can ignore them if you want to, and they have a hard time harassing you without moving to overt violence. Which you can deal with quickly, at least, rather than having to put up with their prattle.

But that's only one kind of CN with E tendencies.

The guy who just was a little TOO selfish in his rejection of external standards probably wouldn't enjoy it too much. It's not like CN people are inherently antisocial and uncharismatic, and even a slightly sinister bent to their free-wheeling nature doesn't mean they hate dealing with people. Nor that they crave and seek out madness.

Every Evil has some element of arrogance to it. The sense of might making right. It has to, because Evil beings are only constrained by what can stop them. It might be the force of law or the rules of the game, or it might be fear of the bigger demon up the street, but the only thing stopping them from doing whatever they want to whomever they want is that knowledge of the consequences should they try, or the actuality of the force stopping them from even trying.

Thus, perhaps, the Evil tainting the CN person is that arrogance that they have a stronger will and will prevail where others fail. Pandemonium whips the chaos down from Limbo into its own planar caves with the madness-inducing winds. It makes reality harder to reshape because it's harder to CONCENTRATE. So only the best minds can bring THEIR brand of "sanity" to bear on the caverns of Pandemonium.

These twisting, inhospitable, noise-drowning caves also make exquisite hiding places. The CN with E tendencies who has made enemies that might follow him into the afterlife may take solace in knowing that he will never be found...unless he wants to be.

That's a great answer! Thanks!

[emulord]

Have you ever been to a rave?

Similar kind of appeal.

[tadkins]

Because lucidity is overrated. :)

[Segev]

Because lucidity is overrated. :)

LUCIDITY! I'm HO~OME!

[Elder_Basilisk]

1. Lying. Who says they know what Pandemonium is really like or where they'll really end up? Even in a fantasy world, people don't get their information from sourcebooks that accurately describe every detail of it. They get their information from people and books. The priestess of Syrull isn't going to give them a negative spin on Pandemonium any more than a cleric of Asmodeus will give them a negative spin on hell. People who are making the choice of what creed to follow first have to decide who they believe. Do they believe the priest of Syrull or the Priest of Pelor? Do they believe the cleric of Asmodeus or the cleric of Iomedae? Most won't have the resources to do independent investigations but the word of the wizards who do is just another point on the scales. How trustworthy is that wizard anyway?

1.2 This is exactly how it works in real life anyway. If you go to Amazon, you can find more books than you can read about people who "went to" heaven or hell whether in a vision as a part of a near death experience. You can do the same for books about past lives, incarnations, or whatever belief system you want to adopt. The law of non-contradiction seems to indicate they're not all true. So, who do you believe? Or do you decide they're all liars and none of it is true? Fantasyland NPCs are no different. They need to weigh the various testimonies and judge which are true. There's no reason to believe that the denizens of Greyhawk or Golarion are any more likely to arrive at the same answers than the denizens of New York or Calcutta.

1.5 For that matter, it's a step too far to assume that everyone will have access to every perspective. Fantasyland doesn't have amazon.com. In Greyhawk, if you are a Great Kingdom peasant, odds are good that the only perspective you have readily available to you is the priesthood of Hextor. If you have the misfortune to be born in the Great Rift or the Hold of Stonefist, you won't be hearing from clerics of Pholtus or wizards there. And wizards may not write in languages you can read or on topics you can understand.

1.6 And don't forget that magic can influence this too. Suggestion[/], [i]enthrall, the temptation version of atonement, mind fog and various bluff enhancing magics, and any number of charms and enchantments are all available for people who want to influence a person's choice.

2. Choice. Who said that people actively choose to be neutral evil?

2.2 Maybe they're born that way. Certainly in real life, some people seem to be born with certain tendencies. In D&Dland, creatures with alignments Usually or Always Chaotic Evil/Chaotic Neutral would seem to at minimum have very strong inherent tendencies towards certain alignments.

2.4 Regardless of how much free will people have, maybe people become Chaotic Evil without ever meaning to do so. Instead, they choose a few things that they want but think they can make up for later. One sacrifice to blind the rival cheerleader and villain 1 was on the edge of Chaotic Evil despite her parents taking her to the temple of Pelor every weekend. Then that series of snarky comments and the fake facebook page that cemented her status with the in-crowd and incidentally drove some other girl to suicide pushed her right over the edge. She meant to get Daddy to pay for an atonement at the temple of Pelor after graduation but got totally smashed at the party and t-boned a druid's t-rex companion on the way home and suddenly Pandemonium has a new anorexic resident.

2.6 Maybe they just don't think ahead at all. In real life, most people have trouble making wise long-term decisions where that term is just measured in years. If people can't stay out of bankruptcy court with five credit cards in their wallet, what makes you think people can stay out of Pandemonium with five chaotic evil clerics in their city?

[Milo v3]

As a CE individual, I'd say they must either be "ignorant of the truth about Pandemonium" or "think it is within their power to circumvent the planes issues". Admittedly I do wonder if there is anything stopping magic from dampening/removing the noise and hazards.

[Segev]

As a CE individual, I'd say they must either be "ignorant of the truth about Pandemonium" or "think it is within their power to circumvent the planes issues". Admittedly I do wonder if there is anything stopping magic from dampening/removing the noise and hazards.

Technically, CE goes to the Abyss, which has a different dynamic.

That said, no, as a petitioner, you probably will NOT have the magic to dampen or remove the noise.

[Milo v3]

That said, no, as a petitioner, you probably will NOT have the magic to dampen or remove the noise.
You can be in the afterlife without being a petitioner based on Deities and Demigods. Just don't worship a god and you have no chance of being turned into one (though don't try that in FR....)

[Segev]

You can be in the afterlife without being a petitioner based on Deities and Demigods. Just don't worship a god and you have no chance of being turned into one (though don't try that in FR....)

What do you become when you die if you're not a petitioner?

[ryu]

What do you become when you die if you're not a petitioner?

In FR you get shoved into a wall for all eternity.

[Darth Ultron]

So why would anyone be CE/CN, knowing they would end up here? Do only insane people go to Pandemonium with the others ending up in Limbo and the Abyss? Or is there some hidden appeal to the plane that I'm missing?

Hidden appeal. But not for you. A single person often has a hard time seeing other afterlives other then the one they choose as having any appeal.

Lets take a worshiper of Erythnul. All they want to do is endlessly slaughter people, in new and creative ways. Now in life things like laws on morals get in the way, as do things like eating and sleeping and having a life. They have to put in a 40 hour work week, and then...maybe..slaughter someone secretly....maybe. But, then enter the afterlife, where they can just slaughter people 24/7 in the the Citadel of Slaughter. It is a dream come true for them.

It might sound crazy, but then to some ''floating around on a cloud and just being happy'' sounds crazy.

Also note, some books give the ''dead'' on Pandemonium immunity to electricity and sonic, and resistance to cold and winds.

[Milo v3]

What do you become when you die if you're not a petitioner?

I'd imagine something like the outsider version of ghosts from Ghostwalk, except on the outerplanes. Unless your in FR.... where lack of worship is punished severely and eternally by becoming part of the wall of the faithless.

[Duke of Urrel]

I've always wondered why anyone would want to go to Pandemonium.

This lovely plane is dark, and windstorms prevent you from speaking or thinking rationally. There are only a few gods with their realms here, and the only real reason to go there seems to be the thousands of hidden vaults on its lowest layer.

So why would anyone be CE/CN, knowing they would end up here? Do only insane people go to Pandemonium with the others ending up in Limbo and the Abyss? Or is there some hidden appeal to the plane that I'm missing?

I think other commenters have made the point that many Chaotic-Evil individuals will not terribly miss the ability to think rationally after they lose it on Pandemonium. Being insane can be liberating. And I think you are definitely on the right track when you guess that Pandemonium may have many appealing traits that accidental tourists are too inexperienced and ill-adapted to appreciate.

Sure, a few unlucky petitioners may meet an quick and nasty end as they are dashed against a rock wall by the wind. But those petitioners who are tough and clever enough to survive may eventually learn to tolerate their new eternal home quite well. Pandemonium's petitioners have Darkvision, immunity to sonic damage, and high cold resistance. I also assume that once you understand that there is always wind, you can use it to your advantage. I imagine one of the most popular sports in Pandemonium is probably windsurfing on specially rigged skateboards.

When the inhabitants of Pandemonium want to communicate, I'm sure they can do it with sign language. There have been a few drow elves living there for some time now, so I'm sure when the inhabitants of the Madhouse or any other populated area have something important to say, they say it in sign language.

Not all of the noise of Pandemonium is the wind. Some of it is the laughter of pure schadenfreude as the plane's more experienced inhabitants observe newcomers banging around in the wind and getting hurt. Setting traps for newbies and subjecting them to painful and humiliating "hazing" is probably the second most popular sport on Pandemonium after windsurfing.

[ryu]

So what you're saying is Pandemonium is ultima online?

[Duke of Urrel]

So what you're saying is Pandemonium is ultima online?

What I'm saying is that taking pleasure in the misfortune of others is probably the most appealing thing about all of the Lower Planes, not just Pandemonium. If you're tough enough to survive for long in any one of these places, you probably eventually forget how miserable you are and start to enjoy observing how miserable others are, particularly others who are weaker than you.

Since I have no experience with ultima online, I'll refrain from speculating about whether this game has a similar appeal for experienced players.

[ryu]

What I'm saying is that taking pleasure in the misfortune of others is probably the most appealing thing about all of the Lower Planes, not just Pandemonium. If you're tough enough to survive for long in any one of these places, you probably eventually forget how miserable you are and start to enjoy observing how miserable others are, particularly others who are weaker than you.

Since I have no experience with ultima online, I'll refrain from speculating about whether this game has a similar appeal for experienced players.

Ganking newbies as they spawned was considered the national sport of the game. The lead designer behind the thing decided it would be a fun move to spawn in one day with a notice of time and place with outrageously high stats you can't even obtain in-game. Care to guess what the results were as the playerbase reacted to this publicity stunt?

[Bad Wolf]

A huge Planar rave.

[ryu]

A huge Planar rave.

Well yes... But also obviously one very dead head developer avatar.

[SangoProduction]

Like they choose to be "chaotic evil"? or neutral or whatever. No. They just happened to end up that way. An alignment isn't something one picks, it's merely what describes the character's tendencies so far.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, you don't need to be Evil to get in Pandemonium
According to the Canonfire! Wiki (http://canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pandemonium),
The Madhouse is a sprawling citadel under the care of the Bleak Cabal. It's an informal center of trade built around an old inn that has, over the centuries, become a kind of city hall. The ruler of the Madhouse, Maris Warrow, bears the title Matron of the Inn. (Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos, page 92)
Bleak Cabal

Hear the barmies howling in the mazes?
If you’re here to learn the secrets of the multiverse,
you might as well save yourself some time and go join’em,
‘cause that’s all it means -that and nothing else.
- Factol Lhar of the Bleak Cabal
Faction Philosophy:
"Life has no meaning. Look around, it's a joke. It's a joke that's just so plain funny that nobody's laughing. People live, breathe, love, despair, and die for no reason. The vastness of the planes is everywhere, and nothing that anyone does makes any impact on anyone. People might try to be charitable to their fellow man, but everyone's going to die, and all you'd be doing is patching them up emotionally and physically until they passed on too. Action means nothing, because it's just a hollow reflection of feelings and feelings mean nothing because they're no good without action. There is no connection between any two events: things happen because they must, and there's no changing what's happened before. I exist for no purpose, and that's not going to change anytime soon. Some would call me a member of the Bleak Cabal. I say I'm just a sod that's finally realised the utter joke that is the multiverse."

"There is no meaning outside of me. The true meaning lies only within. I bury myself in my knowledge, in my books, and I discover everything that there is to know about the meaningless multiverse so that I can apply it to myself. Magic... yes, magic. Magic is my savior, I draw on it from within and lose myself with it."

"The multiverse has no meaning. After about two years of charity work at the Gatehouse, I'm just beginning to realise this. There's no reason that people go hungry in the Hive and die. No reason whatsoever besides the fact that people are greedy and evil. Without me, these people have nothing. Nothing at all. If I'm not here at the Soup Kitchen every morning at five after antipeak, then who will be there for them? Who will look after them from the rogues of the Hive? Who will save them? I can't save them forever, but I can ease their suffering in this existence. To me, the symbol of the Bleak Cabal is a symbol of mercy. We're all that they have."
To most people the idea that there isn‘t any meaning to the multiverse is madness, but to a Bleaker, the idea that there is meaning to anything is what‘s really mad. What proof of some greater purpose has their ever been? What makes people so sure life makes sense anyways? None, nil. For all the searching, no one can truly make sense of everything, not the petitioners, the proxies, or the powers themselves. The Bleakers know the truth: there is no answer, no grand design, no reason. Nothing. They find peace in accepting the state of things for what they are; it‘s what allows them to face the multiverse and themselves. They look down at those who try to force meaning on the multiverse with pity, and can only sigh when others say they are mad.

The Bleak Cabal believe that since there is no meaning on the outside, then all they can do is try to find meaning on the inside. See, the multiverse is cruel and merciless, all madness and noise. However, being used to that, a Bleaker tends to be more understanding of such a condition, and more willing to dole out the mercy that is not inherently in the multiverse. They figure if there isn‘t any mercy in the multiverse, then mercy comes from within, and if mercy comes from within, then maybe, just maybe, they can find their own meaning through it. Even the evil among the Cabal try to do charitable acts, not because they care one way or the other, but because the act helps battle the insanity of having no purpose.

While the Cabal would like to shape people with their point of view, they don‘t force it on others. They don‘t even actively recruit members. Indeed, when someone approaches a Bleaker for membership, they just ignore them, even more so now that the Lady of Pain has seen fit to ban the factions from Sigil. Once the potential Bleaker realizes that all of the questions they‘ve been asking have not been answered because that is the answer, they are accepted. Most of the time potential recruits are members of other factions who‘ve lost faith in their creeds, and no longer see the point of their faction, its allies, or its enemies. It just ceases to make sense. And when you can‘t find anything to believe in, not believing in anything at all is rather appealing.

The Bleak Cabal are a group of depressed, and ofttimes mentally disturbed, humanitarians. If that doesn‘t convince people that the multiverse is insane and without meaning, then perhaps nothing will.

[Eldan]

As a CE individual, I'd say they must either be "ignorant of the truth about Pandemonium" or "think it is within their power to circumvent the planes issues". Admittedly I do wonder if there is anything stopping magic from dampening/removing the noise and hazards.

Not in third edition, as far as I know. Planescape, however, listed entire lists and classes of spells that wouldn't work on certain planes. On Pandemonium, specifically, per the Book of Chaos:
All spells that create solid barriers or change a creature's shape have a shorter duration. They also emit foul smells. Wish outright doesn't work on Pandemonium. Casting any divination requires a will sae from the caster, on a failure, information is misleading. Wild magic is enhanced. Creatures of fire can not be summoned, and all fire and cloud spells have a duration of one round. All summoned creatures have chaotic alignment and try resisting orders. Light can not be created. All language-dependent or sonic spells have a range of 10 ft. or less.
Silence magic or mind blank et al are entirely possible.


As for inhabitants, Pandemonium is explicitely said to be the most sparesly populated outer plane of all. Of the planar inhabitants, most are here either to hide or as prisoners. Loki is mentioned, as is the Queen of Air and Darkness. The same goes for the non-divines: if you quickly need to get far, far away to a place where no one will follow you, this is where you run. THere are also natives, goblins, duergar, drow, usually exiles among their own people.

Petitioners on the plane are mentioned to be incredibly thin and bony, much more so than in life, usually naked, and with no hair. They also gain gripping claws at hands and feet and can see in darkness. Many are here just because they want to be left alone, because in life, they felt haunted or persecuted.

There's also the Bleak Cabal, one of Sigil's factions. They are nihilists and existentialists and also sometimes a bit humanist. They claim that the starkness and hostility of Pandemonium is liberating, in a way. You go there on a retreat, enter a state somewhere between utter madness and calm meditation for a while, learn about yourself and the emptiness of existence, and then come back, so you can get to work.

Finally, there are also does who brave Pandemonium just because it's there.

[BWR]

The Outer Planes are not meant as rewards. They are the the metaphysical weight of countless masses of aligned entities coalesced into discrete yet infinite manifestations of that mindset. Souls gravitate towards the one they are closest to unless a specific instance attracts them (gods taking their worshippers to their realms). If you end up in most nasty places it's not a reward or anything most people are particularly looking forward to - why else do so many evil people do their damndest to stay alive or undead rather than going to their 'reward' in Baator or the Abyss?
There's no guarantee you'll advance and it will be very unpleasant before you're even given the chance.
The good planes are rewards not because they are designed that way but because what goes around comes around (Unity of Rings principle).

If you end up on Pandemonium after death it's most likely not because you choose, it's just because you're a special sort of bat**** insane probably evil ******** that the (meta)physical embodiment of bat**** insane probably evil ********s attracts.