Polymorphing for racial skills

[GilesTheCleric]

Which polymorph forms have the largest +racial diplomacy? I can't seem to find a table or list like that anywhere.

I rolled up at level 1 into a party of level 12s. I'm now 8, but I need 3.5k gp in order to buy an item to get into my next level's PrC. I figured getting gold would be no problem in this game, since there's a ton of downtime (eg ~1 month per session) and I had 8 levels to do it. I did get a bunch of gold from defeating some frost giants, but my character decided to donate it to the town to help pay for the damage that had been done. That was at level 5 or 6, and I figured I'd be fine. Since then, I've gotten enough xp for level 9 solely from rp and non-combat encounters, and thus haven't gotten any more gold. This is an RP-heavy game, so no real complaints there.

I'm running a cleric (surprise), so now it's time to use spells to make money selling trade goods. Again, I've run into a problem. The GM is using a homebrew system for downtime wealth acquisition that relies (apparently solely -- I've got a business strategy written up that is robust, versatile, and imo balanced, but it seems to make no difference) on diplomacy checks. And, apparently under this system it will take at least 4 months to make ~4k with my roll of 25. I'll soon have enough xp for level 10, but I still haven't been able to train for level 8 yet, so I'm fairly anxious to get the gold.

With spells I can easily get the roll to 61+, but I'd like to see if I can get to 70+, since the GM hinted that even with a 50 it would probably still take 2 months. I figure a 75+ should get me the money in a month.

DCFS for item creation is not an option, since my character is incredibly lawful. If there's a heroics feat that could help, then I can use that. If there is a 0 gp way to increase my CL to 8 for Midgard Dwarf and then some way to build an item without spending any gp (my character has <100 gp), that could work, too.In any case, my caster level is 6 and I have 8 HD, but I might be able to buff my CL to 8 for some bigger poly forms. My type is outsider, so that's a few extra forms as well.

[Segev]

Do you have any item creation feats? Ironically, those could help solve your problem in two ways: make items to sell, and burn off some XP you don't want.

What is the item for which you're looking? Can you just sell off some magic items you already have to afford it?

Can you find an NPC patron to loan you the money in return for your services? Maybe your own religious order, if you're a devoted, lawful, and therefore loyal follower.

How much gold DO you have available?

By level 9 or 10, you should EASILY have that much gold in your equipment and gear.

You might also try contacting that town and seeing if they have any they can loan you, or a way they can help you out.

[GilesTheCleric]

Those are some good ideas, Segev.
Do you have any item creation feats? Ironically, those could help solve your problem in two ways: make items to sell, and burn off some XP you don't want.No creation feats. Burning off xp with them is a great idea! I'll have to see if I can get a Grimma's Cauldron once I have some money.


What is the item for which you're looking? Can you just sell off some magic items you already have to afford it?I'm making a +1 truncheon of extra turning, which costs 3802 gp. I currently have < 100 gp; I started the game with 900. I could sell my armour to make 450 of that back. I have no items other than what I started the game with (armour, ink, scrolls, quills, etc).

(Edit: My full inventory: scale mail, no weapon, backpack, spell component pouch, garlic x16, marbles, 50' candle wick, 50' twine, mwk item of concentration, wooden holy symbol, ink, parchment, quills, cold weather clothing)


Can you find an NPC patron to loan you the money in return for your services? Maybe your own religious order, if you're a devoted, lawful, and therefore loyal follower. I'll see if I can find one of those. My character works for the Fortress of Disciplined Enlightenment on Mechanus, so I'll see if anyone there could lend me some money. I'm a cleric of Amaunator, which has effectively no churches or other followers, so Mechanus is my only shot.


How much gold DO you have available? It looks like 4 copper and 3 silver. I think I spent ~10 gp on paying my living expenses for a year ahead of time (whatever the 'poor' quality living expenses in PF are), so I might be able to reclaim some of that.


By level 9 or 10, you should EASILY have that much gold in your equipment and gear. Should, yes, but this game is 90% rp, so I level up without having a chance to make money besides what I can do during downtime. The other players aren't very interested in adventuring, and my character doesn't have any motivation to kill things purely for money. I did ask a few days ago if we could go find some tombs that my character could go and investigate, which might have free wealth lying around.

(Edit to clarify: I went from level 1 to 8 and had just one combat encounter, spending all my free time setting up business connections so that I would even be able to make money during downtime. I now finally have the connections and can sell things (I'm creating stone and iron rather than salt and saffron to sell), but it turns out I need a diplomacy check to sell things during downtime. It makes sense, since we're out in the boonies in northern faerûn.)


You might also try contacting that town and seeing if they have any they can loan you, or a way they can help you out. That might work. I did give them something like 6k gp to help repair the town, so now that it's a few months after the attack they might have some available money to lend.

Edit: I've gotten my check up to an 81 after the 16 cha of Dridershape; if there's a polymorph form with > +4 to diplomacy, I can increase my check further.

[Segev]

Oof. You're GROSSLY under-wealthed. Hrm. Do you have a magic item of competence bonus to Diplomacy? If not, a +4 competence to Diplomacy item would come to 400 gp. You could theoretically sell your armor for the money for that.

[Troacctid]

Burning off xp with them is a great idea! I'll have to see if I can get a Grimma's Cauldron once I have some money.

Another way to burn off a bit of xp would be to summon a companion spirit (DMG2) for your party. You don't need any feats for it--just a DC 15 Spellcraft check and some resources. (300 gp and xp per party member for a 1st-tier spirit, 700 gp and 750 xp per party member for a 2nd-tier spirit.)

[Segev]

Hm. One other thought: How much gp do your fellow PCs have? Are any of them willing to loan you some? Do any of them have +Diplomacy items you could borrow?

[GilesTheCleric]

Oof. You're GROSSLY under-wealthed. Hrm. Do you have a magic item of competence bonus to Diplomacy? If not, a +4 competence to Diplomacy item would come to 400 gp. You could theoretically sell your armor for the money for that.

I think it's fate laughing at me for having billions of gp last campaign with this GM. I know he's not singling me out or having any retribution for that, but it's a bit funny how extreme the difference is between last campaign and this one. I already have a +20 competence bonus from Guidance of the Avatar. I think the only bonus types I'm missing right now are profane/ sacred, racial, circumstance (those all require gp), and alchemical.


Another way to burn off a bit of xp would be to summon a companion spirit (DMG2) for your party. You don't need any feats for it--just a DC 15 Spellcraft check and some resources. (300 gp and xp per party member for a 1st-tier spirit, 700 gp and 750 xp per party member for a 2nd-tier spirit.)

I'll definitely see about that. In fact, since there's 5 or 6 other members in the party, I could see if I could ask them for more than 300 each, provided that I pay the xp cost for them. If I can get an extra 1500 gp, then I can use the Midgard Dwarf to craft the item myself. There's 5 other players, so I'd need to charge each of them 600gp. This is a good way to make use of my xp; thank you, Troacctid.


Hm. One other thought: How much gp do your fellow PCs have? Are any of them willing to loan you some? Do any of them have +Diplomacy items you could borrow?

I don't think that they have too much more gp than I do, though they probably have more than 0. I don't think very many of them donated gold to the town (we donated 60% of the loot or something and split the rest), but they've probably spent it by now (on booze, if nothing else. These characters are heavy drinkers). I'll ask, certainly.

[Segev]

Wait! Can you get your fellow PCs to help you with this endeavor? If they can make a DC 10, they can Aid Another for +2 per helper. Get two of them to help!

[GilesTheCleric]

Hmn. I'm teleporting between the different towns, and I don't know how available the other PCs are. One of them travels about as much as I do and can also teleport, so that's probably at least one other. There's a few spells that net me followers for a year (there's one for a pegasus, and one for some dwarfs or something I think; I'd have to look them up), and I'll check the duration on planar binding to see if I can get more that way. I'd only need ten helpers to break DC 100, since I'm at 81 diplomacy right now. It does feel a bit dirty abusing the aid other action, but just a few couldn't hurt.

Edit: Okay, I chatted with my GM and learned these things. The downtime gold system will never take less time; the system is X DC for Y gp per c amount of time (I think the smallest increment is a month), with every +5 over the DC simply increasing the Y gp.

Today is Ches 10; the party will be active during the equinox festival on the 19, and after that will begin planning to go fight a BBEG (it sounds like they want to do that very soon), so I don't have a month to wait. If the party doesn't chip in for the item, and I can't get a loan, is there any way to replace the gp cost for crafting, or to conjure usable gold out of nothing? My levels are pretty far behind the party, so I stand a good chance of dying against the BBEG if I can't level.

I will have to go find a mwk truncheon to purchase, or someone who can make one. I anticipate that doing so would take a long time. Crafting it will still take ages like RAW mundane crafting, so I'm just going to Fabricate one (turning my mwk +concentration item into it), then enchant the magic item myself via polymorph and suffer the flesh to get the necessary CL. That should take 5 days total, as long as the party chips in for the enchanting costs.

[Segev]

I hate to say it, but it sounds like your DM is just deliberately setting you up for failure. Ask him if he just doesn't want you to take the PrC for some reason. If he's trying to "hint" at it by stonewalling you, it's better to just come out and ban it. If he's okay with you taking it, then ask him to help you find a solution to get into it, given that its his game structure that's preventing you from getting into it for entirely arbitrary reasons (such as his downtime gold system not permitting you to actually earn gold no matter what powers you might have).


One thing you might do is, during the on-screen active time, offer to cast teleport for NPCs. Surely there are merchants who would be delighted to have their goods moved around that fast for a premium fee. 8*5*50 = 200 gp per casting.


The other thing to try is a game-breaking one: can you Planar Bind an Efreeti? If so, do so and make his service to you granting 3 wishes. Each wish can create up to 25,000 gp worth of wealth. Wishing for that one magic item directly would also work.

[GilesTheCleric]

I hate to say it, but it sounds like your DM is just deliberately setting you up for failure. Ask him if he just doesn't want you to take the PrC for some reason. If he's trying to "hint" at it by stonewalling you, it's better to just come out and ban it. If he's okay with you taking it, then ask him to help you find a solution to get into it, given that its his game structure that's preventing you from getting into it for entirely arbitrary reasons (such as his downtime gold system not permitting you to actually earn gold no matter what powers you might have).

One thing you might do is, during the on-screen active time, offer to cast teleport for NPCs. Surely there are merchants who would be delighted to have their goods moved around that fast for a premium fee. 8*5*50 = 200 gp per casting.

The other thing to try is a game-breaking one: can you Planar Bind an Efreeti? If so, do so and make his service to you granting 3 wishes. Each wish can create up to 25,000 gp worth of wealth. Wishing for that one magic item directly would also work.

I don't think that's the case -- I think his expectations and mine differ, and the downtime wealth system is something we haven't tried before. Historically, he has been completely fine with me acquiring however much wealth as I like. I think the real problem is that the party doesn't adventure. Most sessions I gain 1500+ xp without leaving the tavern, simply because there's so much RP and character interaction. (Edit: And, I did at one point have enough gold to purchase the item; it was my fault for not saving enough for the item and then only donating the remainder.)

I will admit that my character is stronger than he should be, but my character is still very low on survivability. However, I built him that way so he could contribute while catching up to the party.

I'll see about selling some spells, certainly. Early on I asked about selling everburning torches and was told most folks wouldn't be able to afford it, so I'll probably have to stick to spells <100gp. I have enough slots that it should only take a couple days to make enough if that works.

Unfortunately I can't G Anyspell a Planar Binding, and I can't access the domains that grant it without a domain draught. I have access to the cleric list up to 6th level spells, and the wizard list up to 5ths. I'll ponder on ways to get access to the spell though, since that exactly fits the bill for creating gold from nothing.

Thank you for sticking with me and helping me to figure this out, Segev. I appreciate it.


Another way to burn off a bit of xp would be to summon a companion spirit (DMG2) for your party. You don't need any feats for it--just a DC 15 Spellcraft check and some resources. (300 gp and xp per party member for a 1st-tier spirit, 700 gp and 750 xp per party member for a 2nd-tier spirit.)

I've floated this idea to the party on the message board, so we'll see what they have to say. Thank you!

[Deophaun]

You have a 61+ Diplomacy and a thriving business in an RP-heavy campaign with no WBL guidelines. Take out a loan, either actual or traffic in favors. You should be able to come to reasonable terms.

[Segev]

That's true. Fine somebody rich enough to give you the loan (or even a gift) and Diplomacy him into being Helpful (or Fanatic). Then just ask for the gold or the item. If you don't want to be taking advantage of him unfairly, use the downtime system to acquire the gold to pay him back in a couple of months.

Explain you need it for your noble quest, and with that kind of diplomacy, there's bound to be somebody who thinks it so worthy a cause they'll just donate the item.

[GilesTheCleric]

We had our session, and I found out that there was some loot that hadn't yet been distributed (from about 4 sessions ago), which added up to just enough (and now I've got a spare 300 gp in my pocket! Back on top again!). Four days and some spells later, and I have my item and am now a full-fledged Radiant Servant.

Thank you Segev, Troacctid, and Deophaun for your help.