Fun With Character Creation

[N0RKS]

My DM has given us rules for creating our characters which are...silly.
It's a very high power, high optimisation game, and our enemies are just as thoroughly beefy as we are.
We have +4 LA for free, and we're gestalt. The only trick is that if we use core we can only use core spells, feats, and classes. Whereas if we use non-core then we can only use non-core spells, feats, and classes.
I'm thinking of playing a thug character, a sort of strength-rogue or streetwise-fighter type. Any suggestions for templates or classes?

My current thought was to play a Half-Troll Rogue//Fighter, but there's certainly better builds to be found in the non-core.

[PallentisLunam]

Wait, I'm confused. The half-troll is definitely not in MM so how are you going to build a half-troll and a fighter/rogue?

Edit: And how does it work when a non-core feat has a core feat as a prereq?

2nd Edit: What about all of the PrCs that have requirements from core? Are they just inaccessible to everybody?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, for spellcasters (and, depending on definition, manifesters), you'd have to stay core, to keep high-power staples like polymorph and planar binding, but you lose most of your good PrC options. For non-spellcasters, you absolutely have to leave core, to get Tome of Battle and real martial power. Can you obtain spells outside your allowed sources after character creation? What about a beguiler or warmage, do they get to keep their normal spell selection?

For a gestalt martial build in a high-power high-OP game, start with a ToB class, gestalt with archivist, ardent, artificer, erudite, favoured soul, or wu jen (any of the non-core t1 and t2 classes out there, there should be enough good buffs in the Spell Compendium, and an erudite can make them available to ardents). Focus your spells on buffing, through Incantatrix 3, DMM:Persist (got to get turning from a PrC), Spelldancer or whatever.

[N0RKS]

Wait, I'm confused. The half-troll is definitely not in MM so how are you going to build a half-troll and a fighter/rogue?

Edit: And how does it work when a non-core feat has a core feat as a prereq?

2nd Edit: What about all of the PrCs that have requirements from core? Are they just inaccessible to everybody?

Races and templates aren't restricted by book.
We can talk to the DM about specific feats for entering PrCs. Feats have some leeway, classes and spells don't.

[PallentisLunam]

Races and templates aren't restricted by book.
We can talk to the DM about specific feats for entering PrCs. Feats have some leeway, classes and spells don't.

Okay, what level are you starting at?

[N0RKS]

Can you obtain spells outside your allowed sources after character creation? What about a beguiler or warmage, do they get to keep their normal spell selection?


We have a Warmage who got a special dispensation to use core spells. And you can learn core spells during the game, but they would be very hard to come by.

[Ellowryn]

If you have to choose between the two i would go for Artificer//Factotum or Incarnate. That way you can have ALL the spells and magic items (you are specifically allowed to grab certain metamagic and crafting feats as bonus feats for Artificer so you don't have to worry about the whole stupid core/non-core thing). Take whatever templates float your boat as long as you don't take hits to int or cha.

If you want to feel gishy you can grab warblade or crusader on the other side, but then that competes with your standard actions (but gives you better BaB, HD, and saves).

[N0RKS]

Okay, what level are you starting at?

3rd I think.

[Curmudgeon]

Avoiding using core stuff is difficult, because many non-core feats and prestige classes require core feats.

Taking as an example the first prestige class in Complete Adventurer (Animal Lord), the requirements include:
Feats: Each kind of animal lord must have a specific feat as follows. Apelord: Toughness; Bearlord: Endurance; Birdlord: Improved Flight†; Catlord: Weapon Finesse; Horselord: Run; Sharklord: Improved Swimming†; Snakelord: Combat Reflexes; Wolflord: Track.
Only those two feats with "†" are non-core; 6/8 options would be unavailable in your game with the "no core" restriction. And about the same percentage applies to all the prestige classes in the book: most of them require a core feat, or race, or spell.

[daremetoidareyo]

With a LA of +4 you can be a kuo toa. Then you can take kuo toa monasticism for a free hit on your off hand and mind shattering strike, which forces the opponent to attack a non-kuo toa next turn. (MMV) This way, your character level sets your stunning fist DCs. Adaptive weapon will allow you to power your monk attacks with feats designed for any other single weapon, you just need to read carefully (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5709.0).

Kuo toa
monk 1/warblade 1: kuotoa monasticism, stunning fist, ius
psych warrior 1/warblade 2: weapon focus (doesn't matter)
psych warrior 2/warblade 3: pole warrior (you can flurry with any weapon now), mind shattering strike

[Andezzar]

So could you go Wizard//Warblade?

[PallentisLunam]

With a LA of +4 you can be a kuo toa. Then you can take kuo toa monasticism for a free hit on your off hand and mind shattering strike, which forces the opponent to attack a non-kuo toa next turn. (MMV) This way, your character level sets your stunning fist DCs. Adaptive weapon will allow you to power your monk attacks with feats designed for any other single weapon, you just need to read carefully (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5709.0).

Kuo toa
monk 1/warblade 1: kuotoa monasticism, stunning fist, ius
psych warrior 1/warblade 2: weapon focus (doesn't matter)
psych warrior 2/warblade 3: pole warrior (you can flurry with any weapon now), mind shattering strike


So could you go Wizard//Warblade?

Emphasis mine, breaks the rules outlined in the OP

[MisterKaws]

Celestial Mongrelfolk NG Incarnate/Warblade, with a bit of an emphasis on diamond mind, focus on taking you Con to sky-high values, bind all soulmelds that grant some sort of immunity to Save-or-Suck effects, and vitality belt, that thing's pretty nice. On the incarnate's side, you get the best survivability abilities of any pure melee class, and on warblade's side, you get diamond mind's effects that sinergize extremely well with a high con, being able to deal reliable damage with even a needle with the insightful strikes, and insane two-hand damage with the nightmare blades, you also get the diamond mind's defensive buffs, as well as other schools' buffs(not like you're only getting diamond mind, right?), which between incarnate's sheer bulk, celestial's goodies, and items, make an overall obnoxiosly strong melee fighter.

Edit: Oh, and by the time you get iron heart surge, you become the healbot, just by binding the lifebond vestments to your heart chakra.

Edit2: I forgot that celestial was core, sorry. Maybe spellwarped draconic mongrelfolk, or spellwarped+anything with a +1 really, that thing's pretty nasty.

[daremetoidareyo]

Celestial Mongrelfolk NG Incarnate/Warblade, with a bit of an emphasis on diamond mind, focus on taking you Con to sky-high values, bind all soulmelds that grant some sort of immunity to Save-or-Suck effects, and vitality belt, that thing's pretty nice. On the incarnate's side, you get the best survivability abilities of any pure melee class, and on warblade's side, you get diamond mind's effects that sinergize extremely well with a high con, being able to deal reliable damage with even a needle with the insightful strikes, and insane two-hand damage with the nightmare blades, you also get the diamond mind's defensive buffs, as well as other schools' buffs(not like you're only getting diamond mind, right?), which between incarnate's sheer bulk, celestial's goodies, and items, make an overall obnoxiosly strong melee fighter.

Edit: Oh, and by the time you get iron heart surge, you become the healbot, just by binding the lifebond vestments to your heart chakra.

Can you suggest some good feats to accompany this?

[xyianth]

So, based on the build idea mentioned in the OP, we have very different definitions of "high optimization." For me, a high optimization route would include gestalting 2x tier 0 classes: spell-to-power erudite and psionic artificer. Add in a dip into thrallherd for disposable cohorts and use the free +4 LA on a phrenic half-fey lesser cansin with the magic in the blood feat. Use thrallherd cohort to attract a telepath and have it use psychic chirurgery to transfer all of its powers to you. Then attract various psions/spellcasters and learn any/all spells/powers you like. While you are at it, make any items you like too.

In general, I highly recommend psionics for your rule restrictions. Unlike magic, all of psionics is non-core, so the funky source restrictions aren't noticeable.

If templated monstrosities aren't your cup of tea, I'd like to point out that sylphs become broken with more than 1 free LA. Sylphs have LA+5 and 3 racial (outsider) HD. But they cast as a sorcerer of HD+4. Under the free LA provided, they become LA+1 3RHD creatures that cast as 7th level sorcerers in addition to perfect flight, outsider traits, improved invisibility at will, and other goodies. Pixies are also amazing PCs and would have no LA in your game.

If you want to have more martial capabilities, you might consider making half of your gestalt an idiot crusader master of nine build for spammable 9th level maneuvers and other tricks.

[Keld Denar]

Twice Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul is also a +4 LA. With a little Hexblade and maybe Binder on the other side, you can get some like, effectively DC40+ paralyzing touches by mid levels.

Plus, brains taste like bacon-wrapped candy. Yummy!

[MisterKaws]

Can you suggest some good feats to accompany this?

That's the most problematic thing, core feats are the basis for most melee characters, but there are still some stuff you could use, like martial study for the shadow jaunt/stride/blink series, which don't need anything except initiator level, maybe shape soulmeld for mauling gauntlets and split chakra to use them along with a pair of gauntlets optimized for damage, there's no power attack, so this character's BAB will probably be enough at most times, so you can go a +1 weapon with +9 enhancements, maybe there's a friendly wizard to cast that mighty wallop, and if the BAB doesn't help, greater magic weapon. If the damage is still not enough, maybe shape soulmeld for dread carapace, even though it's quite inefficient, it's still basically power attack. Other than that, heart of incarnum is a no-brainer, incarnates have insane amounts of essentia, and this peculiar build can get enough hp to match a great wyrm and maybe even the tarrasque if properly optimized.

Oh, just remembered, improved vitality is also a non-core option, that hp really stacks fast...

[Andezzar]

How would Ur-Priest, Shair, spirit shaman and similar classes work under those rules?

[stanprollyright]

Artificer 20//Factotum 8/Swordsage2/Warblade 10. Race: Pixie. Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Font of Inspiration(s), Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Craven

[Rubik]

Artificer 20//Factotum 8/Swordsage2/Warblade 10. Race: Pixie. Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Font of Inspiration(s), Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, CravenDon't forget Darkstalker and DCFS for all the crafting feats you don't need or want.

[martixy]

Does uh... psionics count as non-core?

You could go a Psion / Warblade / Eternal Blade - it's an incredibly synergistic combo - just pump Int, Con and Str(or Dex for a finesse fighter).
I think that, if optimized correctly, can go so nova, it'll make your head spin so hard it'll tunnel to the next dimension. Or I could be missing some obvious counter that'd stop you from using all the "this lets me full-attack you a bajillion times at once with +30 to attack and damage" abilities you eventually get access to.

Edit:
Oh, I forgot the free LA.
How about... a Dex-based White Dragonspawn, Obah-Blessed, Arctic Grey Elf Eternal Blade?
That's uh... something like +10 Dex, +6 Con and various others...
Also 6 arms.

[Andezzar]

Does uh... psionics count as non-core?Of course. There are are no Psionics in the PHB, DMG or MM1.


You could go a Psion / Warblade / Eternal Blade - it's an incredibly synergistic combo - just pump Int, Con and Str(or Dex for a finesse fighter).
I think that, if optimized correctly, can go so nova, it'll make your head spin so hard it'll tunnel to the next dimension. Or I could be missing some obvious counter that'd stop you from using all the "this lets me full-attack you a bajillion times at once with +30 to attack and damage" abilities you eventually get access to.

Edit:
Oh, I forgot the free LA.
How about... a Dex-based White Dragonspawn, Obah-Blessed, Arctic Grey Elf Eternal Blade?
That's uh... something like +10 Dex, +6 Con and various others...
Also 6 arms.Looking good, but that is only one side of the gestalt.
King of Smack on one side and artificer on the other could also work quite well. I'm not so sure which essential spells he will lose.

[Rubik]

How about a half-illithid warforged that uses the Magic Mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)?

Side 1: Factotum 3/martial decisive strike monk 1/erudite psion 1/ardent 1 (conflict/magic mantles)/soulbound psywar 2/cleric of Mystra 3 (rune/good domains)/abrupt jaunt combat wizard conjuror 1/divine mind 1/totemist 1/marshal 1/chameleon 2/crusader 1/warblade 1/swordage 1

Side 2: Dungeoncrasher 6/illithid savant 10/legacy champion 4

Since your manifester levels are all based on your HD due to Supernatural Transformation, that means that all of your manifesting classes are at ML 20, and all of the bonus pp you get from your manifesting classes are also calculated at level 20; that's why the build includes so many manifesting classes -- they grant tons of bonus pp, especially if you boost your Int and Wis through Polymorph Any Object and Persisted Owl's Insight. It's easy to get manifestations of Psychic Chirurgery to add powers (and spells as powers) known to your ardent list from a StP erudite, especially if you use negative levels and Greater Restoration to negate XP costs.

And you can DCFS out all of the armor and shield proficiencies that all of your classes get, since the proficiency feats explicitly say that all classes (except the ones specified in the feats themselves) get them.

Use cleric of Mystra to qualify for Initiate of Mystra, so you can manifest in AMFs and dead magic zones.

Use factotum and the Keen Intellect feat to turn a ton of Str/Dex/Wis skills into Int skills, so you can add your Cha score to it through that level of marshal.

Erudite psion grants you tons of bonus pp and two feats to play with, one of which is your shiny new psicrystal. Otherwise, regular psion is fine.

Psychic warrior has the soulbound warrior ACF, which is super nice in a tough spot. Your ML is always equal to your HD, so you can boost your Call Weaponry power as much as you normally could with a full regular ML.

Use illithid savant to get font of power from metamind (for infinite pp) and Supernatural Spell from dweomerkeeper (to ignore XP and material components).

Oh, and make sure you buy off that extra point of LA on half-illithid.

Now go and have fun.

[martixy]

Of course. There are are no Psionics in the PHB, DMG or MM1.

Looking good, but that is only one side of the gestalt.
King of Smack on one side and artificer on the other could also work quite well. I'm not so sure which essential spells he will lose.

No it's not one side, that's the skeleton of both "sides".
You'd be well advised to maintain full manifester progression - at the most skip 4 levels and get practiced manifester instead. Psion is your protection and maneuverability. Just smack does you no good if you can't deliver it cuz you're dead or left behind. (And you can't get much more beef than D12 + share pain + vigor)
The other side is reserved for Warblade 7(+Int to damage), a couple of dips that might be necessary to acquire prerequisites and 10 levels of Eternal Blade.

You could also get a non-free LA and go Thri-Kreen, though losing that 4 Int will hurt like a mother....

Here's a question though:
What if you levelled a class like Swashbuckler? Weapon Finesse is a core feat, given to that class for free? Can you use shenanigans like that to get around core-only?

Although, really the biggest problem of this build is Weapon Focus.

Edit: Oh yea, and get Keen Intellect.

Also, Rubik, RLY?
DCFS, Supernatural Transformation AND Illithid Savant.
I think my heart skipped a beat out of sympathy for any DM faced with that.

[Rubik]

Also, Rubik, RLY?
DCFS, Supernatural Transformation AND Illithid Savant.
I think my heart skipped a beat out of sympathy for any DM faced with that.YA RLY

The DM said a high powered character, so that's what I'm giving him.

[martixy]

YA RLY

The DM said a high powered character, so that's what I'm giving him.

Can't say I don't like your style either.

I wonder if one could somehow finagle a "martial" version of the "supernatural transformation" thing. That's something I've been wanting to do since forever - all da martial classes, full initiator level with each and a literal crapton of maneuvers. Maybe psion too so I can have enough actions in a round to use them.

[Andezzar]

No it's not one side, that's the skeleton of both "sides".When writing up gestalt characters usually the sides are separated by // and the classes on each side by /. That's why I misunderstood your notation.


You'd be well advised to maintain full manifester progression - at the most skip 4 levels and get practiced manifester instead. Psion is your protection and maneuverability.Very true.

Just smack does you no good if you can't deliver it cuz you're dead or left behind. (And you can't get much more beef than D12 + share pain + vigor)Not sure what you are talking about. By King of Smack I meant one of these builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19914037&postcount=39). The character does not need to eat and he deals a decent amount of damage and heals half the damage he deals. Add a caster progression on the other side and it should be good.

The other side is reserved for Warblade 7(+Int to damage), a couple of dips that might be necessary to acquire prerequisites and 10 levels of Eternal Blade.Warblade 7 only gives +INT to damage on attacks against flat-footed or flanked opponents.

[Bonzai]

I'd go sorcerer with the Worm that Walks template. But that's just me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

YA RLY

The DM said a high powered character, so that's what I'm giving him.
Why not make a gestalt character optimized for astral seed + fusion? Clearly, getting Dual Actions (Su) and Dual Action (Ex) - on top of Elder Evil and Abomination traits/immunities - is the way to go.

[MisterKaws]

How about a half-illithid warforged that uses the Magic Mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)?

Side 1: Factotum 3/martial decisive strike monk 1/erudite psion 1/ardent 1 (conflict/magic mantles)/soulbound psywar 2/cleric of Mystra 3 (rune/good domains)/abrupt jaunt combat wizard conjuror 1/divine mind 1/totemist 1/marshal 1/chameleon 2/crusader 1/warblade 1/swordage 1

Side 2: Dungeoncrasher 6/illithid savant 10/legacy champion 4

Since your manifester levels are all based on your HD due to Supernatural Transformation, that means that all of your manifesting classes are at ML 20, and all of the bonus pp you get from your manifesting classes are also calculated at level 20; that's why the build includes so many manifesting classes -- they grant tons of bonus pp, especially if you boost your Int and Wis through Polymorph Any Object and Persisted Owl's Insight. It's easy to get manifestations of Psychic Chirurgery to add powers (and spells as powers) known to your ardent list from a StP erudite, especially if you use negative levels and Greater Restoration to negate XP costs.

And you can DCFS out all of the armor and shield proficiencies that all of your classes get, since the proficiency feats explicitly say that all classes (except the ones specified in the feats themselves) get them.

Use cleric of Mystra to qualify for Initiate of Mystra, so you can manifest in AMFs and dead magic zones.

Use factotum and the Keen Intellect feat to turn a ton of Str/Dex/Wis skills into Int skills, so you can add your Cha score to it through that level of marshal.

Erudite psion grants you tons of bonus pp and two feats to play with, one of which is your shiny new psicrystal. Otherwise, regular psion is fine.

Psychic warrior has the soulbound warrior ACF, which is super nice in a tough spot. Your ML is always equal to your HD, so you can boost your Call Weaponry power as much as you normally could with a full regular ML.

Use illithid savant to get font of power from metamind (for infinite pp) and Supernatural Spell from dweomerkeeper (to ignore XP and material components).

Oh, and make sure you buy off that extra point of LA on half-illithid.

Now go and have fun.

Cleric of mystra is still a core cleric, so it'd have to be cloistered cleric, I'm sorry but you need to increase the cheese.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sha'ir/Skypledged/Dweomerkeeper//Crusader . Cast all the arcane and divine spells on one side, and have all the melee survivability on the other. Consider splashing in some Marshal for more Charisma synergy or Incarnate for more tankiness.

Spirit Lion Barbarian/Totemist/Totem Rager//Scout would be a hell of a blender. Be sure to pick a race that'll give you access to Rapidstrike. Throw in a level of Warblade for Sudden Leap and every turn you can jump back as a swift, then charge and make a boatload of natural attacks with major damage boosts on each.