Ride-by-attack with spring attack and pounce

[dreams2020]

I've seen a number of threads with most of what I'm looking for, but I'm still confused as to how it will all work out when they're all combined. I'm playing 3.5e d&d. My character has pounce himself and is riding a mount with both pounce and spring attack. If I got ride-by-attack, and had my mount attack, what attacks would we both get? I haven't been able to find a post where the mount had both pounce and spring attack, nor one that dealt with whether characters with pounce can full-round attack on their mount's charge.

[OldTrees1]

Pounce works on a charge and gives you a full attack
Rideby Attack/Spring Attack/Flyby Attack allow 1 standard attack during a move action

So you cannot combine Spring Attack and Pounce since they require different enabling actions(move action and charge action respectively). However you and your mount could either both charge or you could ride by attack while your mount spring attacked/flyby attacked.

[Sayt]

Pounce works on a charge and gives you a full attack
Rideby Attack/Spring Attack/Flyby Attack allow 1 standard attack during a move action

So you cannot combine Spring Attack and Pounce since they require different enabling actions(move action and charge action respectively). However you and your mount could either both charge or you could ride by attack while your mount spring attacked/flyby attacked.

Um, Ride-by Attack starts off by stating "When you are mounted and use the charge action", however you are correct on Spring Attack and Flyby Attack.

If you move charge with Ride-by attack:
1. Declare a charge, and move up to twice your mounts move speed
2. Both you and your mount make full attacks.
3. You and your mount may move further, so long as your total movement this round does not exceed 2x your mounts move-speed. However, you must continue to move in a straight line.

[dreams2020]

If you move charge with Ride-by attack:
1. Declare a charge, and move up to twice your mounts move speed
2. Both you and your mount make full attacks.
3. You and your mount may move further, so long as your total movement this round does not exceed 2x your mounts move-speed. However, you must continue to move in a straight line.

This is what I was hoping. Ride-by does seem tricky to actually use in practice, but it's good to know we'd both our full attacks if I could swing it. Thanks

[Flickerdart]

Note that it can be tricky to angle a Ride-by attack in a legal way. A charge requires that you move to the nearest unoccupied spot to the enemy from which you can attack, while Ride-by attack wants you to keep going in a straight line afterwards. There are configurations where it's impossible to Ride-by attack because a line drawn between you and the square you must move to drives you straight into the enemy you were attacking.

In order to make sure you can reliably Ride-by after charging, increase your reach as much as possible so the square you must move to always creates a legal line for moving after you attack.

Importantly, there are ways to pass through an enemy's square. The movement post-charge doesn't have the same restrictions that the charge does, so you and your mount can Tumble through, attempt to Overrun if you have a standard action left somehow, or simply pass through if the difference between the enemy and you and your mount is 3 size categories (so a horse and human rider can Ride-by through a Dimunitive creature's square, or a Colossal creature's square).

[ben-zayb]

3. You and your mount may move further, so long as your total movement this round does not exceed 2x your mounts move-speed. However, you must continue to move in a straight line.This seems to be a dysfunction, in that charge requires the closest straight route to the enemy, and such straight line will pass through the enemy's square if you use Ride-By attack. Of course, you can't pass through the enemy by RAW, and Ride-By Attack doesn't address and remove such restrictions.

[Flickerdart]

...and such straight line will pass through the enemy's square if you use Ride-By attack.
That is sometimes, but not always, correct. Consider this grid:


----------
--T-------
---S------
----------
---CC-----
---CC-----


In this situation, if the charger C charges target T, the closest square into which he must move is square S. He can accomplish this by moving due north by 2 squares, and then keep going just fine.

[ben-zayb]

That is sometimes, but not always, correct. Consider this grid:


----------
--T-------
---S------
----------
---CC-----
---CC-----


In this situation, if the charger C charges target T, the closest square into which he must move is square S. He can accomplish this by moving due north by 2 squares, and then keep going just fine.Ah, true. Better hope the God of Battlegrids and X-Y Coordinates not screw you then.

[Flickerdart]

It works great on a flying mount, where you fly just above the enemy, allowing you to fly above then, hit them, and then continue flying over them.

[Darrin]

My character has pounce himself and is riding a mount with both pounce and spring attack.

While the rider is mounted, he is not able to perform a charge because he's not able to move on his own unless he dismounts first. So Pounce for the rider just isn't going to work.

Ride-By Attack is poorly written, and I don't understand how the mounted combat rules got out of playtest (I'm assuming nobody tried to actually use them?). The text for Ride-By Attack seems to assume the rider is charging, but this isn't possible. It should say, when your mount is charging. But even if it said this, there are rules issues that might actually prevent the charge. For example, charging to the nearest square may put your opponent directly in front of your mount, making it impossible to move in a straight line. The charge rules don't allow you to even declare a charge if a creature is in your path (yet they do allow you to tumble through opponents or jump over "obstacles", so whoever wrote the charge rules was apparently not really big on attention to details or consistency). Even if your mount can continue to move in a straight line, if your mount continues moving and then ends the charge too far away from your target, then your mount may not be able to attack (hopefully as a large creature it has reach). Pounce follows the movement portion of the charge, so if your opponent is no longer within reach, your mount's full attack is wasted.

Spring Attack and Pounce don't really work together, as they use different types of actions. Charging is a full-round action, while Spring Attack specifies it has to be a move action and an attack action. So if your mount is charging, then it can't Spring Attack, and vice versa. If your mount has access to an additional move action (via hustle, Marshal ability, Tempo bloodspike, etc.), then it might be able to pull off move + charge + finish move, but charge isn't explicitly identified as an "attack action". (Actually, this term isn't really defined in the rules at all.)



If I got ride-by-attack, and had my mount attack, what attacks would we both get?


Assuming your mount is able to continue moving past your opponent, your mount could keep moving but would have to stop his charge with an opponent within his reach in order to attack. Your mount would get a full attack, and you would get a single melee attack as per the mounted combat rules.



I haven't been able to find a post where the mount had both pounce and spring attack, nor one that dealt with whether characters with pounce can full-round attack on their mount's charge.

The mounted combat rules are borked, and require a couple house rules to make them functional. That being said, there are a few PrCs that allow a rider to perform a full attack while mounted: Halfling Outrider 8, Ashworm Dragoon 7, and Wild Plains Outrider 3. However, in all three cases, this only works when the mount makes only a single move action, and does not work on a charge.

If your Ride skill is high enough to consistently perform a fast dismount or fast mount (DC 20), you can try directing your mount to charge, fast dismount as a free action once your mount gets to the target, and then take your full attack on foot (although strict rules adherents may throw books at your head at that point). Presumably if you position your mount correctly and dismount to a square diagonally behind your mount, you'll have at least 10' to perform a charge + pounce if you're so inclined. If you have a way to get an extra move action (via hustle, Marshal ability, Tempo bloodspike, etc.), you could also try to follow that up with fast mount check to get back in the saddle as a free action, but then you may wind up wasting a swift or move action.

There may be one other way to circumvent some of the more boneheaded mounted combat headaches: Start with an intelligent mount that can make its own decisions during combat, and then make sure it acts on its own initiative count. Then have the rider delay until the count after the mount performs its actions. Then just perform your full attack or what have you. But this won't work with Spring Attack or Ride-By Attack. Spend those feats on something more useful, like Focused Lexicon or Skill Focus: Speak Language.

[Sayt]

Also, keep in mind that in the diagram below, that with o as your charge target, the Xs form a straight, diagonal line, as drawn on a grid.

-----x----
-----x----
----ox----
----x-----
----x-----
----x-----