Feat question!!!

[SMac8988]

Hey giants, I am working on a paladins for a current game. And was wondering does mounted combat and shield mastery stack well. Was thinking I could charge, possibly trample depending the mount, then stab with lance and continue to shield bash someone else.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Looks like a solid combo. The advantage from Mounted Combatant applies to the shield bash because it's a melee attack roll. Mounted fighting doesn't use up your bonus action. And you get matching Fireball defense!

[krugaan]

Looks like a solid combo. The advantage from Mounted Combatant applies to the shield bash because it's a melee attack roll. Mounted fighting doesn't use up your bonus action. And you get matching Fireball defense!

wait, does it really? i thought shield master gives a free shove attempt, which is notably *not* an attack roll.

[Ninja_Prawn]

wait, does it really? i thought shield master gives a free shove attempt, which is notably *not* an attack roll.

You may be right, actually. I quickly scanned the Shove rules to make sure it was an attack and saw the words "special melee attack". It is, however, a contested skill check. That's not an attack roll.

I think I was also a bit confused because Disarm is an attack roll, and I've used that more recently than shoving.

[coredump]

Hey giants, I am working on a paladins for a current game. And was wondering does mounted combat and shield mastery stack well. Was thinking I could charge, possibly trample depending the mount, then stab with lance and continue to shield bash someone else.

Yes, you can do all of that. But Advantage doesn't do any good for Shove since there is no attack roll.

[tieren]

I am wondering about mounted combatant and protection fighting style.

If someone attacks my mount can I use protection to give disadvantage and then use the feat to divert it to me as well.

[SwordChuck]

Shove is a special melee attack. It is an attack but it doesn't have a normal attack roll.

They didn't do a good job at editing and being concise in 5e...

[Seruvius]

To my understanding, shoving replaces one of your melee attacks taken with the attack action, is a contested check and lets you knock enemies back or prone. In your case with shield master, you can use it as a bonus action. This can be quite good, but do consider that a lot of paladin specific spells take a bonus action to cast. not a big issue, but something to be mindful of.
Mounted combatant and shield master work together fairly well overall. You and your mount will be quite against anything dex save based at the very least.

[SwordChuck]

Shoving a Creature
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you."

From the basic rules, I bolded part of it...

It should be counted as an attack.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Shoving a Creature
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you."

From the basic rules, I bolded part of it...

It should be counted as an attack.

That's what I thought at first, but I consider the words "You make a Strength (Athletics) check" to be the more important. The first sentence is basically fluff; the real rules are in the second half of the text. Calling it a "special melee attack" is just a really unfortunate choice of words.

When I DM (and remember the rules), I treat shoving as an ability (skill) check. Thus, Jack of All Trades would apply, but Mounted Combatant would not.

[gfishfunk]

When I DM (and remember the rules), I treat shoving as an ability (skill) check. Thus, Jack of All Trades would apply, but Mounted Combatant would not.

One of the reasons I loved my rogue / fighter build: expertise on Athletics made for some sweet-shoving action.

[SwordChuck]

That's what I thought at first, but I consider the words "You make a Strength (Athletics) check" to be the more important. The first sentence is basically fluff; the real rules are in the second half of the text. Calling it a "special melee attack" is just a really unfortunate choice of words.

When I DM (and remember the rules), I treat shoving as an ability (skill) check. Thus, Jack of All Trades would apply, but Mounted Combatant would not.

No.

It is still an attack. Your logic would mean that because Eldritch blast uses what boils down to a Peoficient Charisma check versus AC, Eldritch blast is not an attack.

Yes you use a skill contest to determine the outcome of your attack, but it is still an attack.

The rules clearly call it an attack, I'm perplexed how you can say it isn't an attack when it is written in plain English.

Is it not having a spell cast on you if the way to defend against it isn't a saving throw but is a strength or intelligence check?

[Inglorin]

It is still an attack. [...]
Yes you use a skill contest to determine the outcome of your attack, but it is still an attack.


No, it isn't. See pg. 194 of the PHB:

"If there is ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack role, you're making an attack."

Shoving a Creature (on pg. 195) on the other hand says:

"You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check..."

Ability Check =/= Attack. Therefor: Shoving? Not an attack.

I was wrong.

[SwordChuck]

No, it isn't. See pg. 194 of the PHB:

"If there is ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack role, you're making an attack."

Shoving a Creature (on pg. 195) on the other hand says:

"You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check..."

Ability Check =/= Attack. Therefor: Shoving? Not an attack.

And guess what, specific beats general.

Shove specifically states that it is an attack. The first thing shove talks about is being an attack. It is a special attack, sure, but it is an attack.

Seriously, the logic of shove not being an attack is like saying that web allowing a strength check and not a strength save makes web not a spell. :smallsigh:

[Vogonjeltz]

I am wondering about mounted combatant and protection fighting style.

If someone attacks my mount can I use protection to give disadvantage and then use the feat to divert it to me as well.

No. Protection applies to attacks on targets other than you, Mounted combat changes the target to you, which invalidates Protection. So you can't apply both.

[Inglorin]

Shove specifically states that it is an attack. The first thing shove talks about is being an attack. It is a special attack, sure, but it is an attack.

Yepp. You are right. I didn't read closely enough. It even is printed in the "Melee Attacks" Section of the book. Sorry.

Now the question remains, if Shoving can utilize the "Mounted Combatant" feat. The feat says:

"You have advantage on melee attack rolls against any unmounted creature that is smaller than your mount."

Unfortunately Shoving doesn't use a "melee attack roll" but a contested skill check. So Shoving is an attack, even a melee attack but doesn't get advantage from Mounted Combatant.

[krugaan]

And guess what, specific beats general.

Shove specifically states that it is an attack. The first thing shove talks about is being an attack. It is a special attack, sure, but it is an attack.

Seriously, the logic of shove not being an attack is like saying that web allowing a strength check and not a strength save makes web not a spell. :smallsigh:

Oh boy, this is gonna be a good one!

/popcorn


No.
It is still an attack. Your logic would mean that because Eldritch blast uses what boils down to a Peoficient Charisma check versus AC, Eldritch blast is not an attack.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... wait, i thought eldritch blast was specifically a spell attack? is it really a Proficient charisma check now?

[SMac8988]

So did we decide of shove gets advantage from mounted or no?

[gfishfunk]

Shove = attack was the conclusion.

[krugaan]

Shove = attack was the conclusion.

I disagree, but whatever you want to do as DM will be fine.

edit: whoops, I don't disagree, I suppose, but it should not get advantage regardless.

[Desamir]

Shove is a melee attack and an ability check. (Confirmation (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/08/shove-grapple-attacks/))


Shove is a melee attack, therefore it is affected by things that affect melee attacks.
Shove is not an attack roll (it is an ability check), therefore it is not affected by things that affect attack rolls.
Mounted Combatant provides advantage on melee attack rolls, therefore Shove is not affected.

[SMac8988]

Shove is a melee attack and an ability check. (Confirmation (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/08/shove-grapple-attacks/))


Shove is a melee attack, therefore it is affected by things that affect melee attacks.
Shove is not an attack roll (it is an ability check), therefore it is not affected by things that affect attack rolls.
Mounted Combatant provides advantage on melee attack rolls, therefore Shove is not affected.


This works perfectly. Thank you! :)