Do characters have to physically train to maintain physical ability scores?

[gooddragon1]

If you were a DM, would you require that a character with a strength of 18 would have to do physical training offscreen to maintain their strength?

A more specific application:
A cleric of Kord (with a Strength of 18) became that way by doing 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10km run each day for 3 years. After that he never had to train physically again.

Would you as a DM prohibit that?

Bonus question: Would it be imbalanced if he retained his hair afterwards?

[erok0809]

The game actually already assumes you're doing things like that. Off screen training is the justification for you getting new cool abilities and stuff when you level up, rather than just "I've killed enough things, now I can do X that I couldn't yesterday." You've been training all this past level to do it, it just so happens that after so many encounters and work, you figured out how to do it enough to use it for real. This off screen training would keep your stats up, if you wanted to include that.

[Jergmo]

You maintain your high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution by hitting big things with big things really hard, dodging big things trying to hit you with big things, and surviving blows from big things hitting you with big things.

Every day.

[ryu]

If you were a DM, would you require that a character with a strength of 18 would have to do physical training offscreen to maintain their strength?

A more specific application:
A cleric of Kord (with a Strength of 18) became that way by doing 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10km run each day for 3 years. After that he never had to train physically again.

Would you as a DM prohibit that?

Bonus question: Would it be imbalanced if he retained his hair afterwards?

No. Think about the sheer amount of exercise these sorts of people are doing just to accomplish their daily work. They often run around in heavy armor while carrying piles upon piles of loot and all of this with adrenaline and death combat. By rights anyone who isn't using magic or hired help for most of their physical labor should be all kinds of strong.

[gooddragon1]

What I'm thinking of is how undead and constructs manage to keep their physical ability scores even if they do nothing but stand around. It's probably because they don't have a metabolic rate or something. I would think that magic could keep your ability scores where they are even if you didn't train (or even improve them: Advanced undead template). Just a thought though.

[ryu]

What I'm thinking of is how undead and constructs manage to keep their physical ability scores even if they do nothing but stand around. It's probably because they don't have a metabolic rate or something. I would think that magic could keep your ability scores where they are even if you didn't train (or even improve them: Advanced undead template). Just a thought though.

Neither undead or contructs are powered by our organic processes. Strength in their case is less about muscle mass and more a measure of the force they can physically exert or the objects they can carry. It also doesn't decay away like muscle mass for obvious reasons.

[gooddragon1]

Neither undead or contructs are powered by our organic processes. Strength in their case is less about muscle mass and more a measure of the force they can physically exert or the objects they can carry. It also doesn't decay away like muscle mass for obvious reasons.

So a warforged wouldn't have that problem then? I guess I'm asking if magic could be used as an explanation for why you wouldn't need to train at all.

[ryu]

So a warforged wouldn't have that problem then? I guess I'm asking if magic could be used as an explanation for why you wouldn't need to train at all.

I mean... The problem shouldn't logically exist to begin with in most cases is what I'm saying. You could use magic to handwave in the case where you think it should though. Like I said people with high strength tend to use it on a fairly regular basis. Same for Dex and Con. They invested in those stats and are constantly putting them to good use just adventuring.

[Red Fel]

So a warforged wouldn't have that problem then? I guess I'm asking if magic could be used as an explanation for why you wouldn't need to train at all.

Pretty much. There's a lot more to it than this, but part of the reason a human who fails to maintain his exercise regimen loses fitness is (1) the muscle atrophies from disuse, and (2) the metabolism, which is accustomed to receiving and then quickly burning foods, doesn't burn off food as quickly as it used to, and instead converts it to fat. Again, an oversimplification, but these are the big reasons that athletes and other fit people tend to turn flabby when they stop exercising; the muscle weakens and the metabolism starts turning food into fat instead of burning it off.

Things that aren't alive don't have that problem. A skeleton doesn't eat, so it doesn't have the metabolism issue; it has no muscle tissue to speak of, so there's nothing left to atrophy. Constructs are basically animated statues, or robots; again, no metabolism needed. Warforged are a corner case, being made of plant and metal, but again, they have no real metabolism. They don't need to eat, drink, or even breathe.

Things that are magically animated don't have to worry about keeping fit. They stay in roughly the shape in which they were made, barring outside forces or extreme age. (For example, a stone golem might theoretically erode with passing millennia.)

As has been stated, living characters are presumed to use their stats on a daily basis. If you're constantly fighting dragons or orcs while wearing full plate, I'd say you got a solid workout.

[J-H]

Sure, as long as Wizards have to spend 4 hours a day studying arcane tomes, priests have to spend 4 hours a day alternately counseling parishoners and conducting worship services requiring 100gp/day in incense, and bards have to stand in front of a mirror practicing their smiles while using 6gp/day of makeup.

In other words: No, and it's not fun.

[ryu]

Sure, as long as Wizards have to spend 4 hours a day studying arcane tomes, priests have to spend 4 hours a day alternately counseling parishoners and conducting worship services requiring 100gp/day in incense, and bards have to stand in front of a mirror practicing their smiles while using 6gp/day of makeup.

In other words: No, and it's not fun.

I'm not so sure about the other tasks, but you do realize that's finding arcane tomes to strip-mine for spell knowledge is a primary goal of most wizards right? That's, like, free spells known man.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not so sure about the other tasks, but you do realize that's finding arcane tomes to strip-mine for spell knowledge is a primary goal of most wizards right? That's, like, free spells known man.
Not tomes full of spells you can copy into your book. Tomes full of math, with diagrams and formulae the wizard needs to keep memorized in order to turn finger-wiggling into explosions.

[ryu]

Not tomes full of spells you can copy into your book. Tomes full of math, with diagrams and formulae the wizard needs to keep memorized in order to turn finger-wiggling into explosions.

You speak as if the second half isn't isn't a definition for the most important word in the first half. Why?

[Flickerdart]

You speak as if the second half isn't isn't a definition for the most important word in the first half. Why?
Okay, let's try it this way.
Wizards want to cram their faces (tomes) full of delicious candy (spells). But their moms (brains) won't let them eat (scribe) the candy until they eat their vegetables (cram theory texts).

[ryu]

Okay, let's try it this way.
Wizards want to cram their faces (tomes) full of delicious candy (spells). But their moms (brains) won't let them eat (scribe) the candy until they eat their vegetables (cram theory texts).

Fair. Actually pretty reasonable.

[daremetoidareyo]

Fair. Actually pretty reasonable.

And on top of that they have to exercise or they will lose whatever muscle tone that they do have and go down in stats. Why limit it just to the 18s?

DM: "Sorry, you spent too many nights studying by candlelight for hours on end, you need vitamin D and few jogs around the county before you're at your maximal health."

Wizard: "Aww maan. That takes my constitution down to 9, now I have -1hp per hitdie"

DM: "Dexterity too."

Wizard: "wtf. Table flip." Tantrum

Fighter: "...Just so you know, DM, I thought your idea was bad, too. Can't we just...suspend that aspect of verismilitude?"

DM: "I already let you get away with two weapon fighting with katanas, which as we know in real life, is a terrible idea, difficult to pull off without chopping off your own toes, and utilizing the crappiest sword because of terrible iron!"

Fighter: *sigh*

Wizard:*back from tantrum..."Cool. whatever. I cast polymorph self. I'm a gorilla."

Fighter: "Great, used all of my good will on weapon choice instead of the exercise rules...sigh."

[Flickerdart]

DM: "Sorry, you spent too many nights studying by candlelight for hours on end, you need vitamin D and few jogs around the county before you're at your maximal health."
Everyone knows that wizards hit the track bright and early, and listen to wizarding podcasts while they jog to keep their minds sharp.

Also, carrying all those eldritch metal-bound tomes around really tones your guns.

[ryu]

Actually most wizards really like their con. Your party wizard is probably doing focus exercises under harsh conditions. I wouldn't be surprised to find one meditating under a waterfall. That's why the hat is pointy instead of rounded by the way. It helps to spread the water pressure away from center. The main purpose of the hat is to defend against anti-magic fields though.

[daremetoidareyo]

Actually most wizards really like their con. Your party wizard is probably doing focus exercises under harsh conditions. I wouldn't be surprised to find one meditating under a waterfall. That's why the hat is pointy instead of rounded by the way. It helps to spread the water pressure away from center. The main purpose of the hat is to defend against anti-magic fields though.

That's an hour of exercise that stacks with the hour of intellectual development, which cuts down on crafting time available.

Better leave the exercise for montage scenes that happen off camera. If we handwave magic and components, certainly we just assume the exercise for others happens while the clerics and wizards pray and study their spells in the morning.

[ryu]

That's an hour of exercise that stacks with the hour of intellectual development, which cuts down on crafting time available.

Better leave the exercise for montage scenes that happen off camera. If we handwave magic and components, certainly we just assume the exercise for others happens while the clerics and wizards pray and study their spells in the morning.

I we made the homonculi so we didn't have to worry about crafting time? Stuff is always baking whether I'm their to supervise or not.

[daremetoidareyo]

I we made the homonculi so we didn't have to worry about crafting time? Stuff is always baking whether I'm their to supervise or not.

We are at the performance art level of demonstrating why this is a bad idea now. Well done.

[Flickerdart]

That's an hour of exercise that stacks with the hour of intellectual development, which cuts down on crafting time available.
You can only craft 8 hours a day. Between sleeping 8 hours and crafting 8 hours, there's another 8 hours left to hit the gym, library, or sweet Ambrosia fueled raves down by the Pandemonium portals.

[Arbane]

Bonus question: Would it be imbalanced if he retained his hair afterwards?

That would just make it ridiculously overpowered. Well, EVEN MORE ridiculously overpowered.

I always figured PCs exercise and train when they have 'downtime', but like using the outhouse, it's not something that needed commenting on.
When actually adventuring, trying to avoid dying horribly burns enough calories to stay in good shape.

[ryu]

You can only craft 8 hours a day. Between sleeping 8 hours and crafting 8 hours, there's another 8 hours left to hit the gym, library, or sweet Ambrosia fueled raves down by the Pandemonium portals.

With illusion based lights and cheap magic-based chromatic glowey things I hope?

[Seward]

D&D adventurers are the equivalent of modern special forces units - when they're not fighting, they're training.

Now that said, high physical attributes may not represent physical exercise. If a sorcerer has a high dex, it might be because he casts charms on himself every day to be fast, etc. But whatever it is that they do to be so buff, they keep it up, just as clerics keep their relationship with their god on the right side of faithful and wizards keep their spellbooks in good condition.

[martixy]

And running around like a headless monkey makes for damn good cardio, even for a scrawny wizard. And combat on a regular basis is plenty taxing enough to maintain and build muscle and stamina.

Also, this is a game and there is a great deal of abstraction.
What makes it good is that it uses associated mechanics that make it feel like it isn't abstracting as much as it actually is!

[Coidzor]

So a warforged wouldn't have that problem then? I guess I'm asking if magic could be used as an explanation for why you wouldn't need to train at all.

Warforged would go through weapon drills and forms and the like if they use weapons to fight with, sure, but they don't need to do pushups. The concept of doing pushups to get stronger would be alien to them and their physiology.

[Spore]

Good lord. You play heroes. You don't play demigods, nor mortals nor NPCs. You are heroes. I feel what you propose is subsummarized in "light activity to rest". Aka that 8 hour period where you spend 6 hours sleeping and two hours with nonstrenous activity.

For someone who wrestles bears, demons and trolls on a daily basis, doing a medium training routine is nonstrenous. They use the time to disinfect wounds torn into their chest in order to avoid ingrowing chest hair. (Female fighters do too!) They scretch because they will not want to have a cramp from sitting in that Otyugh for 6 rounds. They lift the wizard because the enemy necromancer sucked four levels out of him as well as diminished his Strength score and he want to know if the cleric didn't screw things up with their restoration magic.

The classical fighter has NOTHING going on while the cleric is praying, the ranger is out hunting for food, the rogue is watching for enemies (and the wizard's 'goods') and the wizard is studying its tome. Of course she'll do practice slashes with her greatsword. Even if she doesn't have too.

Have you seen what this Roy Greenhilt guy does with barely more than sticks as arms?

[Necroticplague]

Warforged would go through weapon drills and forms and the like if they use weapons to fight with, sure, but they don't need to do pushups. The concept of doing pushups to get stronger would be alien to them and their physiology.

Actually, if anything, it would be detrimental. Given how warforged don't heal naturally, all straining themselves would do is cause more wear-and-tear on their body.

[Psyren]

No. Think about the sheer amount of exercise these sorts of people are doing just to accomplish their daily work. They often run around in heavy armor while carrying piles upon piles of loot and all of this with adrenaline and death combat. By rights anyone who isn't using magic or hired help for most of their physical labor should be all kinds of strong.

To add to this, once you're walking around with a enhancing items (e.g. Belt of Giant Strength/Physical Perfection), you can simply imagine that part of the magic of such an item is that it helps with maintaining your mundane physicality. Every martial character ends up with magic items at some point. Translation: no real need to hit the gym anymore. (Though you can still take aging penalties.)

[Flickerdart]

Actually, if anything, it would be detrimental. Given how warforged don't heal naturally, all straining themselves would do is cause more wear-and-tear on their body.
There could be some uses for exercise - namely, diagnostics and calibration.

[Âmesang]

I imagine this is how mages train both their mental and physical ability scores:
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/04/12/how-i-didnt-kill-your-master-055/

Though The Lord of the Rings has taught me never to train hobbits one-on-two. "For the Shire!"


To add to this, once you're walking around with a enhancing items (e.g. Belt of Giant Strength/Physical Perfection), you can simply imagine that part of the magic of such an item is that it helps with maintaining your mundane physicality. Every martial character ends up with magic items at some point. Translation: no real need to hit the gym anymore. (Though you can still take aging penalties.)
That actually reminds me of a thought I had about inherit bonuses; in that I can imagine someone's muscle mass increasing via level-up bonuses to Str, but not via inherit bonuses (and certainly not enhancement bonuses). Perhaps it magically changes one's bone/muscle density?

[Requiem_Jeer]

Minor nitpick: You think a cleric of Kord doesn't at least do pushups when preparing his spells? He's Kord, his temples are glorified gyms.

[Telonius]

A cleric of Kord (with a Strength of 18) became that way by doing 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10km run each day for 3 years. After that he never had to train physically again.


A Cleric of Kord would probably call that, "Sunday Services."

[Psyren]

Minor nitpick: You think a cleric of Kord doesn't at least do pushups when preparing his spells? He's Kord, his temples are glorified gyms.


A Cleric of Kord would probably call that, "Sunday Services."

It's a Saitama reference IIRC

[Red Fel]

It's a Saitama reference IIRC

http://i.imgur.com/U7Ghu2s.gif

[Psyren]

*snip*

I know, I was explaining that to the folks who thought it was a reference to Kord's temple. No need to throw gifs at me :P

[Requiem_Jeer]

Yeah, but he used a cleric of Kord as an example of 'and he never needed to exercise again'.

Even if you say a cleric of Kord doesn't exercise as part of his spell preparation, if a cleric of Kord doesn't exercise for long enough, he loses his class features and becomes an Ex-Cleric.

It distracts from his point that he used such a silly example.

[Misery Esquire]

They lift the wizard because...

No. They lift the Wizard because they needed something to benchpress. :smalltongue:
I had the image of two wizards idly reading through their books, on chairs attached to a bar that a fighter is using to work out. I needed to comment.

"Three thousand six hundred... Sixteen. Three thousand six hundred... Seventeen. Three thousand six hundred... Er."
"Eighteen."
"Eighteen. Three thousand six hundred... Nineteen."
"Listen, could you count in your head, I've finally gotten to the Tippy chapter."
"...Twenty... Yeah, alright."

Besides ; adventuring, and the paranoia gained thereof, keeps you nice and slim. Just ask Rincewind.

[Necroticplague]

There could be some uses for exercise - namely, diagnostics and calibration.

Would that make the one stat point per 4 HD optimization?

[FocusWolf413]

You can only craft 8 hours a day. Between sleeping 8 hours and crafting 8 hours, there's another 8 hours left to hit the gym, library, or sweet Ambrosia fueled raves down by the Pandemonium portals.

This gives me a wonderful character idea. Rave specialist bard. He owns a nightclub.

[ryu]

This gives me a wonderful character idea. Rave specialist bard. He owns a nightclub.

Bonus points if he invents techno in the medieval time period.

[Chronos]

There should always be an explanation for everything, but the players should be free to choose their own explanations. Sometimes it'll be the expected one: The 300-pounds-of-muscle barbarian maintains his strength by doing four hours of weightlifting a day, and the wizard stays brainy by spending every spare moment reading through dusty old tomes. But this is a fantasy world, and there are all sorts of other explanations. Maybe the fighter's strength is the result of a long-distant demon ancestor in his family tree. Maybe the wizard's intelligence is a gift from a god. Maybe the scrawny wizard was a dumb jock in a past life, who used to bully the nerds, and was cursed to be what he most despised. Heck, in that case, maybe it's the wizard who does the hundreds of sit-ups, and shuns books, and it still doesn't do any good. Always leave the door open for creativity.