Animal vs magical beast

[Falcii]

So I am in a campaign where I am playing a druid and we have a battle sloth (dire sloth pc that has 6 int which I guess technically makes him awakened). I want to use enrage animal on him, but my lovely cleric friend insists that because he is a "magic beast" animal spells can't target him anymore. I would argue that just because he is now awakened doesn't remove the fact that he IS indeed an animal (a 7 foot tall sloth to be exact). Could someone please tell me who is right, and please explain why in detail so I can either rub it in his face or understand this madness.

[Jeff the Green]

So I am in a campaign where I am playing a druid and we have a battle sloth (dire sloth pc that has 6 int which I guess technically makes him awakened). I want to use enrage animal on him, but my lovely cleric friend insists that because he is a "magic beast" animal spells can't target him anymore. I would argue that just because he is now awakened doesn't remove the fact that he IS indeed an animal (a 7 foot tall sloth to be exact). Could someone please tell me who is right, and please explain why in detail so I can either rub it in his face or understand this madness.

Nope, he's not a valid target. If he's not of the animal type, he's not an animal for rules purposes, just as an aasimar is humanoid (shaped like a human) but not a valid target for enlarge person.

[Flickerdart]

Your friend is right - the sloth might still be an animal in the biological sense, but its creature type is Magical Beast, not Animal. Your spell won't work on a human (Humanoid), half-human (outsider, dragon, fey, etc) or zombie animal (undead) despite all of them technically being animal creatures.

[GilesTheCleric]

Animal type and Magical Beast type are distinct rules objects. Common-sense applications of what you think "animal" or "magical beast" mean don't apply. Pray for the catgirls.



Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usu- ally a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.
Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—d8 Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have dif-
ferent good saves). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit
Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless other-
wise noted in a creature’s entry). —Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence
score of 3 or higher can be an animal). —Low-light vision. —Alignment: Always neutral. —Treasure: None.
—Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbi- vore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
—Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. —Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.


Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
Features: A magical beast has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless oth- erwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.


Awaken
Transmutation Level: Drd 5 Components: V, S, DF, XP Casting Time: 24 hours Range: Touch Target: Animal or tree touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes
You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object (see the Monster Manual), except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intel- ligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost: 250 XP.

Enrage Animal isn't in the PHB and thus isn't open-source, but if the Target: line says "animal", then it won't work on your sloth. The same thing happens for spells like Dominate (which only affects humanoids) vs Dominate Monster (which affects most things, and thus is a higher-level spell).

Edit: Double totemist'd. Welcome to the playground, where the rules are not made up, but the points still don't matter.

[Falcii]

Okay so are there spells that will work in general for me to buff my fuzzy friend? Like can I use my normal spells (magic fang for a poor example) on him or do I need something specifically made for magical beasts? Also do any magical beast focused spells exist?

[GilesTheCleric]

Okay so are there spells that will work in general for me to buff my fuzzy friend? Like can I use my normal spells (magic fang for a poor example) on him or do I need something specifically made for magical beasts? Also do any magical beast focused spells exist?

Anything that targets things like "subject", "creature", "living creature" or the like will work on both you and your sloth. There might be some spells that target only magical beasts, but I don't think it's worth looking for them.

Edit: If you're not sure if a word is a dedicated rules term (and thus doesn't use the dictionary definition) or not, check the glossary in the back of your PHB, or the MM1 glossary. If it's in there, then it's a rules construct and behaves in a specific way.

Double edit: There are roughly 39 spells (out of ~3000 in the game) that contain "magical beast", and most of them don't target magical beasts exclusively (ie Alter Self).

[Falcii]

My confusion was mostly over it being called an augmented 'animal' so I assumed that implied animal.

[GilesTheCleric]

Augmented animal is a subtype, not a type. Any time you see something in parenths after a type, it's a subtype. So, you could have ex a lizardfolk (MM1 169), which is Humanoid (reptilian): a humanoid type with the reptilian subtype.

Note also that many game terms cannot be "broken down". For example, an enhancement bonus is always an "enhancement bonus", not a "bonus" or an "enhancement". There's probably a better example of two words changing meaning when put together, but I don't want to delve into anything that's really complicated like what "attack" means (don't think about it too hard; just keep using it the way you always have. The RAW sticklers here can dive pretty deep into it). Maybe someone else can think up a better example.

[CharonsHelper]

I agree with the above - but I will jump in with a fluff argument.

Enrage Animal is supposed to just be making an animal's primitive brain hulk out - but the awakened sloth buddy is too intelligent for that to work on him. (At 6 - that's Homer Simpson level intelligence - but still way more than an animal's.)

[GilesTheCleric]

I agree with the above - but I will jump in with a fluff argument.

Enrage Animal is supposed to just be making an animal's primitive brain hulk out - but the awakened sloth buddy is too intelligent for that to work on him. (At 6 - that's Homer Simpson level intelligence - but still way more than an animal's.)

That's a fine houserule to have, but let's be clear that it's not RAW, so your GM will have to expressly allow it. Here in the playground, many folks stick to RAW since that's the same for all tables and a good way of communicating with the same understanding.

[torrasque666]

That's a fine houserule to have, but let's be clear that it's not RAW, so your GM will have to expressly allow it. Here in the playground, many folks stick to RAW since that's the same for all tables and a good way of communicating with the same understanding.
He's.... he's agreeing with you in saying it can't work. He's then providing a fluff argument (because some people take fluff over rules)

[Susano-wo]

Soooo, what does an Augmented subtype, y'know...do? It doesn't seem to really affect anything. it doesn't add or subtract any abilities, or apparently have any affect on a creature. :smallfrown:

[GilesTheCleric]

He's.... he's agreeing with you in saying it can't work. He's then providing a fluff argument (because some people take fluff over rules)

I know, but it seemed like he was implying that something unrelated to the type (like int score) could somehow affect the outcome.

[Jeraa]

Soooo, what does an Augmented subtype, y'know...do? It doesn't seem to really affect anything. it doesn't add or subtract any abilities, or apparently have any affect on a creature. :smallfrown:

Each creature type is divided into 2 sections: features (hit dice, skills, saves, and base attack bonus) and traits (everything else). Check the back of the Monster Manual for more.


A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

[Susano-wo]

Each creature type is divided into 2 sections: features (hit dice, skills, saves, and base attack bonus) and traits (everything else). Check the back of the Monster Manual for more.

Sure, I just don't see how its necessary.Any template that gives you the augmented subtype is going to tell you what to change and not to change, right? Seems like it just adds confusion (especially the PF entry which drops the specific 'keep old features gain new traits clause) :smallsigh:

[Mehangel]

Okay so are there spells that will work in general for me to buff my fuzzy friend? Like can I use my normal spells (magic fang for a poor example) on him or do I need something specifically made for magical beasts? Also do any magical beast focused spells exist?

If you really want to use your 'animal only' spells on magical beasts, just ask your gm about researching a variant spell which works on magical beasts. Alternatively ask your gm about seeking out a collar, belt, etc which allows whoever wears it to count as an animal for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of spells (excluding awaken ofcourse).

[glitterbaby]

So does the type change on an animal only if you cast Awaken? What happens if you increase intelligence through other means? Putting your wizard's int item on the druid's wolf to blowing a Wish spell to increase it inherently, are these examples different? One is permanent while one is temporary? Does it matter?

[Ashtagon]

Nope, he's not a valid target. If he's not of the animal type, he's not an animal for rules purposes, just as an aasimar is humanoid (shaped like a human) but not a valid target for enlarge person.

Half-right. In 3.x, the druid can only cast spells on the animal companion if the spell affects the companion['s creature type (magical beast) or if the druid is sharing a spell also cast on himself.

In PF, the druid can always target his companion with a spell, regardless of creature type, but only with spells from animal-companion-granting classes.

[Rebel7284]

So does the type change on an animal only if you cast Awaken? What happens if you increase intelligence through other means? Putting your wizard's int item on the druid's wolf to blowing a Wish spell to increase it inherently, are these examples different? One is permanent while one is temporary? Does it matter?

Undefined rules exception. Core dump.

[Flickerdart]

So does the type change on an animal only if you cast Awaken? What happens if you increase intelligence through other means? Putting your wizard's int item on the druid's wolf to blowing a Wish spell to increase it inherently, are these examples different? One is permanent while one is temporary? Does it matter?

You can change an animal's type in a few ways. Awaken is one of them, polymorph any object is another. Increasing INT does not change type; animals simply cannot have an INT that is not 1 or 2.

[glitterbaby]

You can change an animal's type in a few ways. Awaken is one of them, polymorph any object is another. Increasing INT does not change type; animals simply cannot have an INT that is not 1 or 2.

So what happens when you want to watch the world burn so you blow a Wish or two on increasing your tiger's int to 4?

[Flickerdart]

So what happens when you want to watch the world burn so you blow a Wish or two on increasing your tiger's int to 4?
Nothing happens. An animal cannot have Int above 2. It's possible to run endlessly in circles around the fact that it says "no creature with Int 3 can be an animal" and not "no animal can have Int 3" but to me, this is the most sensible ruling, and requires less of a stretch than saying "it becomes a magical beast."

[glitterbaby]

Nothing happens. An animal cannot have Int above 2. It's possible to run endlessly in circles around the fact that it says "no creature with Int 3 can be an animal" and not "no animal can have Int 3" but to me, this is the most sensible ruling, and requires less of a stretch than saying "it becomes a magical beast."

Go RAW!!!!

[P.F.]

Nothing happens. An animal cannot have Int above 2. It's possible to run endlessly in circles around the fact that it says "no creature with Int 3 can be an animal" and not "no animal can have Int 3" but to me, this is the most sensible ruling, and requires less of a stretch than saying "it becomes a magical beast."

Hmm. Is "the most sensible ruling" playground-code for "RAW is dysfunctional so use RAI instead?" Because this clearly is a dysfunctional rule. By my reading, if an animal with Int 2 gains +1 Int, and "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal," and no other rule prevents the application of this bonus, then the creature with the newly 3-or-higher Intelligence score is simply not an animal. What that creature's type is, would be debatable. All unmodified creatures have a listed type, but is there a rule which states that they must have a type, or that no creature can be untyped?

[Jeraa]

Hmm. Is "the most sensible ruling" playground-code for "RAW is dysfunctional so use RAI instead?" Because this clearly is a dysfunctional rule. By my reading, if an animal with Int 2 gains +1 Int, and "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal," and no other rule prevents the application of this bonus, then the creature with the newly 3-or-higher Intelligence score is simply not an animal. What that creature's type is, would be debatable. All unmodified creatures have a listed type, but is there a rule which states that they must have a type, or that no creature can be untyped?

Seeing as how monsters get their hit dice, skills, and saves from their type, you won't find a creature that doesn't have a type. As for an actual rule, I don't think there is one. It is just sort of implied that you have to have a type.

[Venger]

Seeing as how monsters get their hit dice, skills, and saves from their type, you won't find a creature that doesn't have a type. As for an actual rule, I don't think there is one. It is just sort of implied that you have to have a type.

It's more than implied. as you said, your most basic stats are all cascading from type, so you can't have half you statblock without it.

[eggynack]

Hmm. Is "the most sensible ruling" playground-code for "RAW is dysfunctional so use RAI instead?"
Basically. This is one of those ambiguous corners of the RAW, by my reckoning, falling closer to the unresolvable side of the spectrum than most issues.

[ben-zayb]

Seeing as how monsters get their hit dice, skills, and saves from their type, you won't find a creature that doesn't have a type. As for an actual rule, I don't think there is one. It is just sort of implied that you have to have a type.But Humans have no type!

[P.F.]

Seeing as how monsters get their hit dice, skills, and saves from their type, you won't find a creature that doesn't have a type. As for an actual rule, I don't think there is one. It is just sort of implied that you have to have a type.


It's more than implied. as you said, your most basic stats are all cascading from type, so you can't have half you statblock without it.

Well, all creatures start out with a type, but type can be changed, creatures can have more than one type, or count as a type different than the one they derive their basic stats from. Cannot they also lose their type?


But Humans have no type!
Humans are humanoid type, with the demihuman subtype.

[nedz]

So what happens when you want to watch the world burn so you blow a Wish or two on increasing your tiger's int to 4?

Specific trumps general so this is fine.

The general rule is that Animals (or more precisely Creatures with the Animal type) have Int 1 or 2; but you have invoked the more specific rules in Wish (or whatever) to bump it to 4.

Really though you should use your wish to increase your Tiger's Int to π, or maybe you already have.

[Jeraa]

Well, all creatures start out with a type, but type can be changed, creatures can have more than one type, or count as a type different than the one they derive their basic stats from. Cannot they also lose their type?

You only ever have one type at a time (which may change depending on what templates or things you have). You can't have more than one type. You can have multiple subtypes, but no creature has more than one type. No creature has less than one type.