Good-aligned gladiatorial combat? Or at least gladiators that the good guys accept!

[Dr TPK]

I have made a similar thread in the past but I'm trying a new approach.

There's a neutral good kingdom. Of course it's not 100% neutral good, but that's the general alignment there.

Some political faction, which is not that good, manages to successfully lobby for gladiatorial combat. The government agrees to this, but the government want the gladiatorial combat to be non-offensive to their general politics. The neutral good rulers would be ok with everything that doesn't directly violate their alignment, as in "If you accept this, you will no longer be a good person".

What kind of limits would there be? I will not tell that much about the setting, assume any standard Greyhawk setting which fits the PHB perfectly.

[noob]

No lethal damage and no nasty stuff like stat damage or drain or negative levels.
Have the battle happen without weapons and without anything to fight other than a pencil(made blunt) or a guitar.
now they do opposed skill checks to see who is the best at drawing or at music or at basket-weaving.

[Aleolus]

The main thing would be that combat would be non-lethal. Instead of giving the gladiators real swords, they'd be wooden ones. As soon as either participant dropped the other would have to back away, no wild animals or monsters, etc

[Geddy2112]

I don't think violence, or even combat to the death is off the table for a generally good aligned kingdom. The bigger questions are who is fighting and why?

Are these trained fighters and athletes, akin to celebrities fighting for sport and fame? Are these prisoners of war forced to fight against their will? Are these prisoners who are choosing to fight and try to earn their freedom? Is this an alternative to the death penalty?

MMA fights might not use lethal weapons, but you can get plenty banged up and fight till somebody gets KO'ed. In a setting with magical healing, getting stabbed with a sword till the point of near death is really not that bad. Going into negative hp, but not death is rarely going to result in anything short of a full recovery. And if these people are choosing to fight to earn fame, provide entertainment, etc then it is really no different than boxing, MMA, even Football(American and Soccer) where people get injured all the time(and sometimes die) for entertainment. A good society has no problem with this.

If people are being forced to fight against their will, then good is pretty much out the window. Even if the fight will be stopped when one party is knocked out, even if they are using bare hands, forcing people to fight against their will is pretty non good.

The last case would be prisoners earning their freedom. Hopefully, a neutral good society would not have overly draconic laws so there would be few nonviolent/nondangerous offenders. You have the bad people you have to lock up, and the really bad capital offenders. Instead of capital punishment, would it be wrong for a society to allow them to fight for their freedom? If a murderer is going to be locked away for life, would a good society accept them fighting(and killing) other dangerous violent people? What if one of them wins their freedom and walks out a cold blooded killer? I doubt a good society would be okay with that, as they probably don't have capital punishment. If they do, they might be under special circumstances.

But what about jailable but not capital offenses? Theft, property destruction, or perhaps a fine they could not pay? I think allowing these people to fight for entertainment and not to the death would be allowed. Where a professional fighter would earn money, this fighter's income would be put towards their debt to society, personal or otherwise. A neutral good society would probably have better outlets for criminals to pay their debt, but nonlethal combat would probably not be shunned.


TLDR: Combats not to the death (but possibly with lethal force on the table) between willing people is fine, and possibly okay as a way to repay debts to society(but this is not the only way to pay the debt and not forced).

[Dr TPK]

I like Geddy's reasoning for the sole reason that it would make my game more interesting but still keep it consistent :smallbiggrin: (wink wink)

[Eldariel]

It's a fantasy world. Death by combat isn't actually necessarily meaningful at all. True Resurrection, in a kingdom with characters capable of casting it, essentially only costs 25k plus whatever the Cleric casting it asks as compensation (if the gladiatorial events are e.g. parts of some religious ceremonies, it's fully possible that it's done for free). So it's fully possible to allow lethal magic and weapons without real-world provisos about having to ensure no permanent harm comes to the recipient - magic can fix any permanent harm possible to inflict in combat. Pain is one thing but presumably that's something the gladiators accept themselves; a neutral good kingdom probably doesn't have slavery so I'd assume the gladiators are willing (and again, in a world where injury or premature death has no consequence, I can easily imagine people flocking to be gladiators, particularly in a world already full of adventuring parties hunting dragons for a living).

Hell, it's possible to build an arena that magically keeps all the participants alive but just registers death to get around having to resurrect people. The arena can even protect the spectators from whatever stuff happens inside. It could be a demiplane that's just projected onto a field as an image (basically 3d magical hologram of massive scale; easily within the limitations of 3.X magic) so it seems like the fighters are there even though they're actually fighting in a different dimension. Further, it's possible to produce almost any creature as a simulacrum of some kind so the fights need not only be heroes vs. heroes but it's just as easy to generate monster vs. monster or monster vs. hero or team fights. And intelligent creatures such as Dragons can participate just as easily as humanoids. Of course, what it does is another matter; it can serve any number of functions beyond simple entertainment. But with magic, the possibilities are endless.

[awa]

you could also utilize simple constructs actual golems are probably to expensive but their are a lot of cheaper ones out there

[Geddy2112]

It's a fantasy world. Death by combat isn't actually necessarily meaningful at all. True Resurrection, in a kingdom with characters capable of casting it, essentially only costs 25k plus whatever the Cleric casting it asks as compensation (if the gladiatorial events are e.g. parts of some religious ceremonies, it's fully possible that it's done for free). So it's fully possible to allow lethal magic and weapons without real-world provisos about having to ensure no permanent harm comes to the recipient - magic can fix any permanent harm possible to inflict in combat.
Which is great if you have 25 grand and a minimum 18th level cleric on standby to cast true resurrection. The idea of putting two high level characters against each other in an exhibition is cool, but this is going to be rare. Most people fighting in an area don't have that kind of coin, and true resurrection is a 9th level spell. Most wealthy people in a setting would be lucky to have the money and spellcaster available to cast raise dead, and that has consequences. Resurrection is cheaper, but still has penalty.


in a world where injury or premature death has no consequence
Having to pay 25 grand and having a 9th level spell hardly makes death "without consequence". This is also a world where a necromancer can use your corpse as a puppet, and evil deities can capture your soul.


The main thing would be that combat would be non-lethal. Instead of giving the gladiators real swords, they'd be wooden ones.
Wooden swords are lethal. A club, bat, or any other bludgeoning weapon can kill just fine.

[VoxRationis]

It's a fantasy world. Death by combat isn't actually necessarily meaningful at all. True Resurrection, in a kingdom with characters capable of casting it, essentially only costs 25k plus whatever the Cleric casting it asks as compensation (if the gladiatorial events are e.g. parts of some religious ceremonies, it's fully possible that it's done for free). So it's fully possible to allow lethal magic and weapons without real-world provisos about having to ensure no permanent harm comes to the recipient - magic can fix any permanent harm possible to inflict in combat. Pain is one thing but presumably that's something the gladiators accept themselves; a neutral good kingdom probably doesn't have slavery so I'd assume the gladiators are willing (and again, in a world where injury or premature death has no consequence, I can easily imagine people flocking to be gladiators, particularly in a world already full of adventuring parties hunting dragons for a living).

Hell, it's possible to build an arena that magically keeps all the participants alive but just registers death to get around having to resurrect people. The arena can even protect the spectators from whatever stuff happens inside. It could be a demiplane that's just projected onto a field as an image (basically 3d magical hologram of massive scale; easily within the limitations of 3.X magic) so it seems like the fighters are there even though they're actually fighting in a different dimension. Further, it's possible to produce almost any creature as a simulacrum of some kind so the fights need not only be heroes vs. heroes but it's just as easy to generate monster vs. monster or monster vs. hero or team fights. And intelligent creatures such as Dragons can participate just as easily as humanoids. Of course, what it does is another matter; it can serve any number of functions beyond simple entertainment. But with magic, the possibilities are endless.

You must play Tippyverse settings a lot. In other settings, 25k per gladiator is a trifle steep. So is wasting the spell slots of the high priest who has to cast resurrection a lot to prop up an entertainment business. The way you're suggesting this, the government's more likely to reject the plan on grounds of practicality and cost than they are about morality.
Actual gladiatorial combat was a lot less lethal than is commonly shown in media. Some died (and obviously anyone condemned to death by wild beasts died), but gladiators usually managed to have actual "careers." A single 1st-level healing spell (or even a cantrip) would prevent death in most of the few cases where it would have historically. One of the larger issues we would have today with gladiatorial combat is that it often involves involuntary subjects (the other is that it often involves the use of endangered animals). As long as coercion isn't involved, and some form of low-level healing is on hand, the government probably won't have anything to worry about.

[Eldariel]

Which is great if you have 25 grand and a minimum 18th level cleric on standby to cast true resurrection. The idea of putting two high level characters against each other in an exhibition is cool, but this is going to be rare. Most people fighting in an area don't have that kind of coin, and true resurrection is a 9th level spell. Most wealthy people in a setting would be lucky to have the money and spellcaster available to cast raise dead, and that has consequences. Resurrection is cheaper, but still has penalty.

17th level, actually. Yeah, I brought it up as a proviso. If those exist, no problem. If they don't, you'll have to use Raise Dead/Resurrection, or alternatively you can use persistent magic to ensure death doesn't happen in the first place. Depending on the type of society, the gladiatorial games can easily bring in more than the 25k gold per round though so it's not like it's unsustainable.


Having to pay 25 grand and having a 9th level spell hardly makes death "without consequence". This is also a world where a necromancer can use your corpse as a puppet, and evil deities can capture your soul.

After True Resurrection is in play, death of anything but old age has no long-term consequences. It costs 25k but stats and level and such all remain the same. 9th level slots refill daily so if someone exists who has them and is willing to cast the spell, then there we are (stuff like Candle of Invocations exist to do it much cheaper but it's not necessary to go that far). Though again, e.g. having the arena confer constant Delay Death on all participants would work just as well and have no running costs after putting it in place, and require lower level spells. Even a level 1 Adept can heal people under Delay Death.

The latter point makes no sense: why would a neutral good kingdom give necromancers or evil deities an access to people in their gladiatorial games? Their existence doesn't seem relevant in this context.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

As an alternative to true rez, revivify is a 5th level spell, and costs only 1k per casting. Sure, the cleric needs to get to the corpse within one round, but if it's a small arena, it's not out of the question.

[Dr TPK]

I would like to kindly ask you to leave Tippyverse out of this, please.


assume any standard Greyhawk setting which fits the PHB perfectly.

[Aegis013]

Why not just Grecian style olympic games? Includes unarmed wrestling which satisfies the gladiatorial combat stuff, but the intention is only to put the enemy in a submission hold or something. In game play, it would probably be non-lethal unarmed strikes and grapples.

Have two categories for it too - with magic / without magic. Then you could also include all kinds of other things like strongman competitions or archery and jousting contests on top to keep it medieval in feel. After all even knights were well trained in grappling and submission in case they were disarmed.

[Eldariel]

I would like to kindly ask you to leave Tippyverse out of this, please.

Well, logical extrapolation of the PHB generally lends itself well to building a society around magic as that's precisely what half the book is about; indeed, Tippy claims his world is precisely what would most likely occur in a world built by the rules as presented in the DMG and the PHB. That's quite the ways from Greyhawk so those two descriptions are at odds. Well, the society will of course affect what kinds of options exist and what precisely they might want with the games. I have a hard time seeing why magic wouldn't be utilized to at least some degree specifically to ensure the safety and the well-being of the participants though unless we're talking entirely non-magical one.

But my post didn't really incorporate Tippyverse or work anywhere near that level; it's just simple integration of magic to society. With the amount of money that would likely be involved in this kind of a business, magic where necessary could certainly be afforded and to ensure longlasting, high quality participants, guaranteeing their survival and fitness is a key concern, something magic does much better than anything in our world.

If the fights are purely physical, Merciful weapons are +1 so it might be possible to afford them for use in the events. Without any kind of safety net though, any fights with lethal weapons probably too dangerous as a single critical hit can quite easily knock any weakened or lower level participants to -10, causing instant death. For a neutral good society to allow these even with a neutral factor being the main benefactor, I can only assume either the weapons themselves are non-lethal or the participants are required to deal non-lethal damage (and eat up the associated penalty to attacks). I can only imagine events with the participants able to go all-out would sell better though.

[Mjr Lee Fat]

I think the aforementioned 5th level raise dead followed by a casting of restoration (to remove the negative effects of raise dead) is a much cheaper alternative to true resurrection. And if these contests are run by some sort of government that can afford to have them, then they can probably afford a mid-level cleric(s) for these spells.

And as has been said earlier, as long as the combatants don't go negative in hitpoints, minor healing magic by low-level clerics would be more than adequate.

I also agree with the whole "these gladiators are career fighters and treated like athletes or celebrities. I would like to visit the previous post about having ancient Greek style wrestling matches. If you have the space, you might as well try to hold other contests as a way to bring in more money. Modern-day track & field events (which basically boil down to who can run a certain distance the fastest, who can throw this the farthest, and who's the best jumper) would work really well in this setting, especially if you have a sort of society that places some sort of value on physical prowess. But this is all just a thought. :smallsmile:

[Bobby Baratheon]

Easy answer: "Fantasy" football.

Sorry. I couldn't resist. I'll show myself out.

[Socratov]

what do you think martial arts and sports are for? Boxing, K1, thai boxing, you name it...

hell, ever heard of the olympics? Good guys like to see suffering as well...

[SwordChucks]

you could also utilize simple constructs actual golems are probably to expensive but their are a lot of cheaper ones out there

This sounds really great. A bunch of mechanics looking for the edge they need to supe up their 'bot could hire the PCs to gather materials. It would be completely bloodless, and the "contestants" can't really die.

If you do set up an Olympics style competition don't forget to have some of the bizarre events from the early days like poetry.