Cosmic Descryer

[Tiger2222]

I was looking at the prestige classes in the SRD, and noticed that the seventh level ability for the cosmic descryer could be broken. It lets you add a given number to most die rolls(caster level being the important one here, but you can also do ability checks and skill checks) and you take 5 damage for each. You can increase your caster level for a spell by one for each 5 points of damage. There is a fourth level cleric spell called Delay Death, which makes it impossible for you to die from hit point damage for 1 round per caster level. What if you got an epic level heal spell, which basically acts like heal but with no limit? Could you cast delay death at (insert big number here) caster level, be at negative whatever hit points, and then cast heal with a bigger number? Given that heal works with 10 hit points per caster level you should be able to make delay death last for a near infinite amount of time. And also, could you cast another buff spell during that time and get even more infinite buffs? Is there a spell that protects against death effects? Because with that and delay death on, you could have an invincible character.

[Rakoa]

If you're not already invincible at level 28, you're doing something wrong. :smallwink:

[Inevitability]

Instead of healing conventionally, just stick your head underwater for a bit.

[Telonius]

I was looking at the prestige classes in the SRD, and noticed that the seventh level ability for the cosmic descryer could be broken. It lets you add a given number to most die rolls(caster level being the important one here, but you can also do ability checks and skill checks) and you take 5 damage for each. You can increase your caster level for a spell by one for each 5 points of damage. There is a fourth level cleric spell called Delay Death, which makes it impossible for you to die from hit point damage for 1 round per caster level. What if you got an epic level heal spell, which basically acts like heal but with no limit? Could you cast delay death at (insert big number here) caster level, be at negative whatever hit points, and then cast heal with a bigger number? Given that heal works with 10 hit points per caster level you should be able to make delay death last for a near infinite amount of time. And also, could you cast another buff spell during that time and get even more infinite buffs? Is there a spell that protects against death effects? Because with that and delay death on, you could have an invincible character.

Welcome to the boards! Yes, that would probably be something you could do. However, you'll probably notice that there are a whole lot of theoretical and practical optimizers around here. They've been hard at work coming up with ridiculous combinations for more than a decade. So there's generally a pretty high threshold for calling something "broken."

The general consensus is that the game really starts losing all semblance of balance in the mid-levels (and sometimes earlier than that, depending on how hard you're trying to break it), when spellcasters start pulling very far ahead of everyone else in terms of power. Since the character is already capable of Epic-level casting, being able to do stuff like what you're describing is almost assumed.

[thethird]

I'll quote Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=2202848&postcount=8) on the subject.


You combine thiw with epic casting. Create a spell that has an effect based on caster level. Like 1 GP crated per caster level. Now get a CL of 100 million and cast the spell.

The thing you want to make use of it though is pact of return. I'll die because of connecting to the multiverse.

[Tiger2222]

Actually, would you even need to do the heal part? Just set Cl to infinity, infinitely long and nobody can dispel it. Oh, and you could create an epic version of harm and do infinity damage. Add death ward(protection from death effects) to be invincible and with gate you could summon monsters with infinite stats. A army of great wyrm prismatic dragons with no limit on how many there are, all with infinite stats, controlled by a leader with infinite damage every round. Now all I have to do is find a way to get infinite spells per day. Then I'll have a infinite army of dragons. Fun:smallbiggrin:

[Tiger2222]

I just found out that the epic spell for harm takes away all but 1d4 hp. But it has negative levels bestowed and if they exceed the opponents character level they must make a fort save or die. With the previous abilities this means that no matter what they have to make a DC infinity saving throw or die. oh, and the heal spell heals all hp.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Âmesang]

Just make sure it's not a spell that targets an individual. I'm kind of imagining a "mastery of counterspelling" sorceress/archmage with Improved Counterspell, Improved Spell Capacity 10/11, Improved Heighten Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell (0-12)… Epic Counterspell? Anything I'm missing to just bounce the spell back?

Yeah, it's not the most optimized; I just like the idea of effectively being able to counterspell (nearly) everything and anything anytime, all of the time. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Or, I guess, a max-level spell turning could work. Probably.

[Tiger2222]

You can apply an infinite bonus to saves and hp doesn't matter. If they reverse it just cast it again.:smallbiggrin:

[ZamielVanWeber]

You can apply an infinite bonus to saves and hp doesn't matter. If they reverse it just cast it again.:smallbiggrin:

This is important: you can set the value to any number, but it is not infinite. This is important for when it comes into contact with actual infinites, such as a d2 Crusader' damage.

[Tiger2222]

But you could basically just set it to an arbitrarily high number that far exceeds anything else and might as well be infinite.

[ZamielVanWeber]

But you could basically just set it to an arbitrarily high number that far exceeds anything else and might as well be infinite.

But as a finite number someone could easily top with their own arbitrarily large boost. Is it huge? Yes. But it is in no way, shape, or form infinite. This especially important because at this level of optimization battles between arbitrarily large numbers are entirely possible.

[Tiger2222]

Assuming that the d2 crusader's damage is actually infinite, that would allow the concept of infinity in the d20 system and therefore you could increase everything to infinity. I'm also pretty sure that because neither takes up any game time but only the crusader theoretically takes up real time, the cosmic descryer would be more infinite than the crusader. The crusader adds 2 to itself infinite times and the cosmic descryer adds one to itself any number of times, therefore infinity.

[Necroticplague]

Maybe I missed something, but how are you avoiding dying by arbitrary large amount of damage (both from d2 crusader, and from your own ability)?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Assuming that the d2 crusader's damage is actually infinite, that would allow the concept of infinity in the d20 system and therefore you could increase everything to infinity. I'm also pretty sure that because neither takes up any game time but only the crusader theoretically takes up real time, the cosmic descryer would be more infinite than the crusader. The crusader adds 2 to itself infinite times and the cosmic descryer adds one to itself any number of times, therefore infinity.

So I get the sense you have some issues with the concept of infinity. Here is a big one: infinity is not a number. At all. By your logic I can have a caster level of "salt" because the concept of salt is in DnD. This brings us to problem 2: Cosmic descryer (which cannot go infinite as it needs a number which infinity is not), even if it went infinite, is not capable of generating an infinity larger than d2 crusader's; +2 infinitely and +1 infinitely are the same size infinity.

[Tiger2222]

NecroticPlague, the whole thing is based off the spell delay death, which makes it impossible to die from hit point damage for a number of rounds based on our caster level. Then you get the feat Diehard, which means you can be disabled and only take one action a round instead of being unconscious. Then you cast the epic Heal which heals all damage. And while you are at negative hit points you can also cast Death Ward which protects against death effects. Given that the duration for all of these spells is based off caster level, you could just set your caster to a number big enough to last for as long as you want.

And on the infinity subject, if infinity is not being used as a number then you can't roll a d2 an infinite number of times. And if you can, then you can get around that by saying, "I add the amount of damage a d2 Crusader does to my caster level." In my previous post I was unclear about the d2 crusader's infinite damage being used as a gateway to infinite caster level.

But you were right about problem two: but I think that would only matter with a caster level conflict but then you just have someone counterspell it. And that has nothing to do with caster level. Of course, you would ward the secondary caster also. Then you just need them to counterspell long enough for you to kill the other person.

[Necroticplague]

NecroticPlague, the whole thing is based off the spell delay death, which makes it impossible to die from hit point damage for a number of rounds based on our caster level. Then you get the feat Diehard, which means you can be disabled and only take one action a round instead of being unconscious. Then you cast the epic Heal which heals all damage. And while you are at negative hit points you can also cast Death Ward which protects against death effects. Given that the duration for all of these spells is based off caster level, you could just set your caster to a number big enough to last for as long as you want.

Ah, gotcha. Sounds like it would be easier to just use Eschew Materials Hide Life, which wraps up all of those benefits into one spell that lats days per level. Your caster level would be finite the first time (because you couldn't take enough to kill you before the spell sets in), but after that, any arbitrarily large number is fine. I do wonder why you need the epic heal if no amount of hit point damage would kill you (and you're just gonna blow the hit points on something else right afterwards).

Though I would like to note, while this renders you immune to any amount of damage, it doesn't prevent disintegrate killing you. Disintagrate isn't a death effect, and destroys your body if you're below 0 HP. Even a succesful fortitude save still does some damage, which would kill you.

I would also like to note, aside from caster level, you can get the similar results at least 11 (probably shave off a few levels with ur-priest ) levels earlier by simply using Shield other on 4 other people, who each then use Shield Other on you, then deal at least 4 points of damage to yourself (or have one of the people deal 8 points of damage to themselves), while under the effects of Masochism and Hide Life (and them under the effect of Hide Life as well, so they can survive the infinite damage loop).

[Tiger2222]

NecroticPlague, with the Diehard feat when you have negative hit points you can only take a move or a standard action each round, plus disintegrate would automatically kill you. This would not protect against disintegrate unfortunately, does anyone know of a way to prevent that?

[Psyren]

So I get the sense you have some issues with the concept of infinity. Here is a big one: infinity is not a number. At all. By your logic I can have a caster level of "salt" because the concept of salt is in DnD. This brings us to problem 2: Cosmic descryer (which cannot go infinite as it needs a number which infinity is not), even if it went infinite, is not capable of generating an infinity larger than d2 crusader's; +2 infinitely and +1 infinitely are the same size infinity.

This is all moot because d2 Crusader's damage happens within a single round. Thus Delay Death will not expire no matter how long it takes him to roll infinite dice.

[ZamielVanWeber]

And on the infinity subject, if infinity is not being used as a number then you can't roll a d2 an infinite number of times. And if you can, then you can get around that by saying, "I add the amount of damage a d2 Crusader does to my caster level." In my previous post I was unclear about the d2 crusader's infinite damage being used as a gateway to infinite caster level.
First off no "if" about it. Infinity is not a number. Next you are correct about being unable to roll infinite dice; this does not mean it is not infinite but rather shows that true infinite loops are a problem. Your loop is still not infinite, as I explained before. Consider that once you have finished activating the Cosmic Desvryer ability you have a number. It can be insanely huge, such as a googleplex^googleplex, but it is finite, which is by definition is not infinite. The d2 Crusader would break the game if it were computer based because "infinite." It only works in DnD because a DM can use ignore the infinity nature and assign an arbitrarily large (but finite) number. Properly the game should stop dead forever when a d2 Crusader hits something.


But you were right about problem two: but I think that would only matter with a caster level conflict but then you just have someone counterspell it. And that has nothing to do with caster level. Of course, you would ward the secondary caster also. Then you just need them to counterspell long enough for you to kill the other person.

Or any of the many interactions that ultimately compare caster level to caster level? As long as they take their action after you they can make their caster level a larger number than yours and go from there.


This is all moot because d2 Crusader's damage happens within a single round. Thus Delay Death will not expire no matter how long it takes him to roll infinite dice.

If you would please read back I never said to use a d2 Crusader against him. I used it only as an example of an infinite loop in DnD, as opposed to his arbitrarily large loop.

[Tiger2222]

First off no "if" about it. Infinity is not a number. Next you are correct about being unable to roll infinite dice; this does not mean it is not infinite but rather shows that true infinite loops are a problem. Your loop is still not infinite, as I explained before. Consider that once you have finished activating the Cosmic Desvryer ability you have a number. It can be insanely huge, such as a googleplex^googleplex, but it is finite, which is by definition is not infinite. The d2 Crusader would break the game if it were computer based because "infinite." It only works in DnD because a DM can use ignore the infinity nature and assign an arbitrarily large (but finite) number. Properly the game should stop dead forever when a d2 Crusader hits something.



This is what I meant earlier when I said that the d2 Crusader allows infinity in DnD. Because it is not actually being treated as infinity, the problem about it coming into contact with infinites is moot. True, it is not actually infinity, but it is being treated as infinity is(that is, treated as an arbitrarily large number.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is what I meant earlier when I said that the d2 Crusader allows infinity in DnD. Because it is not actually being treated as infinity, the problem about it coming into contact with infinites is moot. True, it is not actually infinity, but it is being treated as infinity is(that is, treated as an arbitrarily large number.)

Not treating it as infinity is a house rule and a highly necessary one at that but it a houserule none the less. You essentially the DM to rule that despite your calculation being finite and his being infinite you can have a bigger number when the two calculations come together and are resolved, which is an extremely arbitrary ruling.

[Necroticplague]

NecroticPlague, with the Diehard feat when you have negative hit points you can only take a move or a standard action each round, plus disintegrate would automatically kill you. This would not protect against disintegrate unfortunately, does anyone know of a way to prevent that?

Hide Life also has the same effect as the spell+feat combo provided, while having a longer duration, and skipping the need for a feat. Let's you go as far negative as you want, but you're staggered (limited to a move or standard) as long as your hit points are below 10.

Protecting against Disintegrate as the spell is actually fairly trivial. +1 Spellblade (Disintegrate) Poisoned Ring. At the level at which your build comes along, this is chump change. Disintegrate itself isn't a problem. The problem is gonna be effects similar to it: Ones that say "if this damage reduces them to 0 or fewer hitpoints........." are all gonna be true whenever they hit you (and are typically some form of killing you without being called out as such).

[Psyren]

If you would please read back I never said to use a d2 Crusader against him. I used it only as an example of an infinite loop in DnD, as opposed to his arbitrarily large loop.


This is important: you can set the value to any number, but it is not infinite. This is important for when it comes into contact with actual infinites, such as a d2 Crusader' damage.

How do you propose they "come into contact" without being used against each other?