Growing your Demiplane!

[Xar Zarath]

Hey playgrounders. So according to the PF Create Demiplane spells, the highest level of that line of spells, 8th level Greater Create Demiplane can only create a space that is as large as (a small house, I can't recall who posted it)

How can I increase the efficiency of the spell so that I don't have to cast it so many times just to make myself a large country utopia where my every whim is catered to and I can make my own government to watch over my armies/harem of Outsiders/humanoids and undead slaves?

*Without resorting to shenanigans/cheese please thanks*

[Half-Wizard]

Keep in mind that you also need permanency (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/permanency) to actually make the plane last more than one day per level, and the cost is 22,500 gp worth of diamond dust, and you have to do that for every time you cast greater create demiplane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane). The only way I'm aware of to get around that cost would be by casting blood money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money), but that would deal 45 strength damage to you and the damage would be inflicted prior to casting permanency, which means you'd be unable to cast it. You couldn't even prepare permanency as a still spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/still-spell-metamagic---final) because RAW, any time you have ability damage greater than or equal to any ability score, you fall unconscious (or die, in the case of constitution damage).

So, first you'd have to find a way to get 46 strength. Not easy. Let's say you've got a bit of a gish build with 17 strength to start with. You can get a +6 enhancement bonus from a belt of physical might +6 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-physical-might) (note that you cannot cast iron body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/iron-body) for the strength bonus since it makes you immune to ability damage), but you'll probably need mighty strength (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mighty-strength) for the +8 enhancement bonus instead. You could cast form of the dragon III (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i) to get an extra +10 strength as a size bonus. You can craft and read a manual of gainful exercise +5 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book-manual-of-gainful-exercise) for a +5 inherent bonus to strength. You could become addicted to zerk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs/zerk) for up a +4 alchemical bonus to strength. That's 44 strength, still 2 short of what you need. The only remaining option I'm aware of is the profane gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus) of a succubus for a +2 profane strength bonus. Now you can cast blood money and take 45 strength damage and still be one point shy of going unconscious.

Bear in mind that unless you've taken a three level dip into cleric, and then leveled up as a mystic theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/mystic-theurge), you will have to pay 280 gp for a cleric to cast mighty strength each time you need it. To keep things easy, let's say you've gone ahead and taken that dip. Also, if you'd rather not involve a succubus, you could probably manage to have 19 base strength without too much added difficulty compared to the rest of this, but it really depends on your starting build. If you're using an established character, you may very well not even be able to do this.

By yourself, this is going to be a slow but steady process. You'd cast greater create demiplane, then mighty strength, form of the dragon, then blood money, then permanency. Mighty strength would wear off in about 15 minutes (assuming Wiz 3/Clr 3/Mystic Theurge 12), so you'd cast lesser restoration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/restoration) on yourself about 18 times to get rid of all that strength damage. Without any pearls of power, you'd be able to go through this whole process about once a day, with your main limit simply being that you probably can't cast more than two 8th-level wizard spells per day.

Now, how do you make the plane faster? Assuming your arcane bond is an item, that's an extra spell per day. Adding on a pearl of power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl-of-power) for 8th level spells would let you go through this whole process about twice a day, and you'd be up to a total of 218,500 gp out of an expected 530,000 gp for an 18th-level character's wealth by level.

Faster? When making the plane, use one of your castings of greater create demiplane to give the plane enhanced magic. This will add +2 to your caster level, so you make two extra 10-foot cubes with each casting.

Faster still? Give your plane the flowing time trait. Time passes on your plane twice as quickly as it does on the material plane, so you're getting two days of work done for every day that passes on the material plane. At this point, you can add 68 10-foot cubes of permanent space to your plane for each day that passes on the material plane. You'd need about 6 and a half days to make an acre of space on your plane, and it would have a 10 ft. ceiling.

Even faster? Get the magical knack trait and apply it to your wizard side. Now you can make 76 10-foot cubes per day, and you could make an acre in 5 and a quarter days. You could make a square mile in 10 years and 18 days.

Super fast? Get an orange prism ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/orange-prism-ioun-stone) so you can make 80 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 9 years and 200 days.

Scary fast? Make simulacrums (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum) of yourself. Have your horde of simulacrums cast restoration on you to fix your ability damage while you concentrate on making the plane. With healing out of the way, you can cast form of the dragon III just once, then do blood money, permanency, and greater create demiplane three times each (casting once with the pearl of power, once with your bonded item, and once as a memorized spell). Now you make 120 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 6 years and 134 days.

Frighteningly fast? Make your school specialization conjuration. One extra spell per day. Now you make 160 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 4 years and 303 days.

Insanely fast? Get a ring of sustenance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance) so you only need two hours of sleep to rest enough for preparing arcane spells. Note this won't help with cleric spells, but assuming you can cast mighty strength six times, you'd be able to cast greater create demiplane and make it permanent a total of 19 times per day on your plane, or 38 times per day that passes on the material plane. That's 760 10-foot cubes per standard day (over an acre per day!) and a square mile in one year and two days.

How the f**?! Ramp up your wisdom or get sixth level pearls of power so you can cast mighty strength on yourself five more times per day, and get the fast study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/fast-study) discovery. Once you're done casting, end the dragon form so you pass out, have a good nap for two hours, and then have your simulacrums wake you up with healing so you can spend 7 to 8 minutes preparing just the spells you need to do it all over again. You should be able to cast greater create demiplane and make it permanent a total of 68 times for each day that passes on the material plane. You make 1,360 10-foot cubes per day (over three acres per day!) and a square mile in 205 days.

I don't even? To go beyond this, use the ridiculous economic potential of your simulacrums to get the money needed to make 8th level pearls of power. For example, if you have the false focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/false-focus) feat, have your simulacrums sell tens of thousands of torches of continual flame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/continual-flame) flame per day across the world, even across the planes. Have other simulacrums make the pearls of power for you in their spare time. You will need more and more simulacrums, but with them you may fairly quickly reach the theoretical limit of planar expansion. Each time you get 68 new pearls of 1st, 5th, and 8th level each, take a day off to make 68 new simulacrums (or whatever amount more that you can make with the ridiculous amounts of pearls of power that you have). As you get more simulacrums, they'll make pearls for you faster, so you'll make simulacrums faster, so they'll make pearls faster, etc. You enter a period of rapid exponential growth. Rather quickly, you hit your theoretical limit of planar expansion by making about 264,000 10-foot cubes per day that passes on the material plane (606 acres), so you make 94.6% of a square mile per day, basically. You basically alternate between create greater demiplane and then blood money+permanency nonstop while awake, stopping only for two hours to sleep each day. In the span of a year, you now add 345 square miles to your kingdom. This is basically about 3 and a half hexes as specified in the kingdom building (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building) rules.

Will that work for you?

[Xar Zarath]

Wow...really wow

[Flesh_Engine]

Don't forget Ring of Inner Fortitude (Greater)

Can net you an extra 3k for free per casting of Blood Money.

[Milo v3]

Alternatively you could just make command word items of Create Demiplane and Permanency.

[Âmesang]

I totally read the last line in the opening post wrong and am now picturing a harem of voluptuous vampiresses and lascivious liches (Corpse Bride? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9boDkpEyvc)). Sorry, it's still early. :smalltongue:

[Harmelyo]

Here are a few alternatives to solve/build on the previous offer: [Cheese Warning]

- Crank up your CL to reduce the number of casting needed or "Play it the ol' Magic circle style":
Instead of going for Wizard, go for Witch or Shaman or Sorcerer (with the right bloodline) or any alternative that get access to the Coven Hex. I will assume that Leadership is allowed, if not just pay for the service of level 1 witches/Shamans/... or hire one and use Simulacrum to make copy of him with the Coven Hex:

Effect: The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.

Now the goal of the game is to get as many Witches/Shamans/... as you can in the 30 feets that are around you and help you on the last round of your spell casting.
I am too lazy to make the calculation but I will just say that the number of participants is a lot even if just considering the 30ft as a cube.
Options for further craziness are:

Consider getting the help to move (after all help another is just a standard action)
Consider using less than small participants to squeeze more of them in a square.


- Too lazy to pull weight and get your Strength high enough? Well meet my friend Magic Jar!
The idea is to ease yourself on the sheer amount of spells, buffs you need to cast blood money and not pass out. You just have to find a beefy creature and if possible dumb (low will) and magic jar yourself into it then can the spell. Depending on what creature you can get your hands on you may need more or less of the other options to crank up your strength but starting with a base strength of 20+ should ease the process, Giants and Trolls are great target with their generally low will and humanoid form.
The Magic Jar duration is enough to last 2 casting of Create Greater Demiplane by the time you can actually cast it.

- Lesser Restoration is nice but Restoration is better: For 100gp a pop you get all your damage removed. My idea on that would be to get a Witch or Shaman cohort with the right patron/Spirits to get access to Restoration + Blood Money. With that you are probably going to free a lot of spell slots.

- Funny side effect:
Growing to huge size let you get more bangs for your bucks with the Coven Hex! Just staying on a 2D level you now have 168 squares available! That is a respectable +168 to your CL if you can manage to get those 168 witches/Shamans/... (getting bored of repeating that :smalltongue:). It translates to a respectable 20 x (15(CL) + 1(ioun) + 168(Coven) )= 3680 10ft cubes

[TheIronGolem]

The only way I'm aware of to get around [the cost of diamonds] would be by casting blood money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money), but that would deal 45 strength damage to you and the damage would be inflicted prior to casting permanency, which means you'd be unable to cast it. You couldn't even prepare permanency as a still spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/still-spell-metamagic---final) because RAW, any time you have ability damage greater than or equal to any ability score, you fall unconscious (or die, in the case of constitution damage).


What if you used contingency (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contingency), with a condition of "If I become unconscious", set to polymorph yourself into something immune to ability damage?

[Hunter Noventa]

What if you used contingency (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contingency), with a condition of "If I become unconscious", set to polymorph yourself into something immune to ability damage?

Then wouldn't Blood Money fail? It explicitly calls out that things immune to strength damage cannot cast the spell in the first place. Of course, the casting of the spell causes the damage, said damage causes the polymorph...what happens to the damage when you polymorph. Sure you're immune to it NOW, but you already took it before the Contingency went off. If you're hit by a fireball and then polymorph into something immune to fire, the damage you took isn't healed.

But a Contingent Restoration would do the trick wouldn't it? it cures all Temporary Ability Damage, and all Ability Damage is temporary unless otherwise specified. But that would take even more Diamond Dust.

However, you don't technically need that. it appears that no matter how much strength damage you take, your strength score cannot go lower than zero. Which means you only need a Contingent Lesser Restoration to get back on your feet. Unless I'm wrong about how ability score damage works in regards to zeroing out.

Of course, this also raises issues of, if you can't actually take the amount of strength damage required without going comatose, can you even cast Blood Price?

[Slithery D]

The bigger problem with this scheme is how you're going to effectively protect it from Mage's Disjunction popping all your hard work. Demiplanes are best if they're secret, so not a large population, and you'd be better off with a dozen small ones than one big one if you want to last.

[SorenKnight]

What if you used contingency (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contingency), with a condition of "If I become unconscious", set to polymorph yourself into something immune to ability damage?

You would already have taken the ability damage so the immunity wouldn't protect you. After all polymorphing into a fire elemental doesn't retroactively remove fireball damage.

[icefractal]

Couple things:

1) You don't cast Create Greater Demiplane repeatedly, you cast Create Lesser Demiplane repeatedly (and make it permanent). Then when your demiplane is big enough, you cast Create Greater Demiplane a few times to add the desired planar features.

2) Blood Money is still possible, although it requires an assistant. You cast it, drop to Strength 0 and are paralyzed, then your assistant takes their readied action to cast [anything that cures ability damage] and you proceed with your other spell.
Edit: Or Contingency, as mentioned.

It's still going to be slow going, getting anything large built. An item that did this continually would be extremely expensive, but it would give you relatively fast growth.

[Slithery D]

Couple things:

1) You don't cast Create Greater Demiplane repeatedly, you cast Create Lesser Demiplane repeatedly (and make it permanent). Then when your demiplane is big enough, you cast Create Greater Demiplane a few times to add the desired planar features.

Whoa, no.

Lesser: 3x10' cubes, 2 hour casting time, 17,500 to permanency.
Greater: 20x10' cubes, 6 hour casting time, 22,500 to permanency.

So greater gets you 6.67 the volume for 3 times the casting time and 1.29 the permanency cost. It's more than twice as efficient in casting time and 5 times as efficient in gold cost for the same target volume.

If you work/cast 12 hours a day Greater gets you slightly more than twice as much volume per day at a cheaper per day cost.

[Harmelyo]

@Slithery D: To answer on how to ward your demiplane against disjunction and such, I will send you back to the Coven Trick, passing a CL check with a DC in the hundreds is quite hard without having your own Coven... with you... on the said Demiplane

[Gün]

What happens when you cast greater demiplane and pick timeless trait for your demiplane. Will this make your next applications of your create demiplane in order to enlarge it permanent?

[Xar Zarath]

What happens when you cast greater demiplane and pick timeless trait for your demiplane. Will this make your next applications of your create demiplane in order to enlarge it permanent?

I think this only affects with regard to time based effects and spells. Casting any more create demiplane spells would work as normal.

[Xar Zarath]

Question though:

When you cast Create Greater Demiplane, you create your very own demiplane. It's yours because you cast the spell that brought it into existence. Say you got a cohort or a friend mage helping you out who also casts Create Greater Demiplane...would the demiplane still be yours or would it technically be shared?

Because if you end up on someone's demiplane and cast Create Demiplane, wouldn't you have technically violated their demiplane by making it bigger with your spell?

[MasterFu]

Another possibility for blood money would be to magic jar/possess something with a higher strength score (like a titan, purple worm, elder elemental, or mammoth). You can still apply the other shenanigans, but this would give you a higher starting point.

[The Random NPC]

Keep in mind that you also need permanency (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/permanency) to actually make the plane last more than one day per level, and the cost is 22,500 gp worth of diamond dust, and you have to do that for every time you cast greater create demiplane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane). The only way I'm aware of to get around that cost would be by casting blood money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money), but that would deal 45 strength damage to you and the damage would be inflicted prior to casting permanency, which means you'd be unable to cast it. You couldn't even prepare permanency as a still spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/still-spell-metamagic---final) because RAW, any time you have ability damage greater than or equal to any ability score, you fall unconscious (or die, in the case of constitution damage).

So, first you'd have to find a way to get 46 strength. Not easy. Let's say you've got a bit of a gish build with 17 strength to start with. You can get a +6 enhancement bonus from a belt of physical might +6 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-physical-might) (note that you cannot cast iron body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/iron-body) for the strength bonus since it makes you immune to ability damage), but you'll probably need mighty strength (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mighty-strength) for the +8 enhancement bonus instead. You could cast form of the dragon III (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/form-of-the-dragon-i) to get an extra +10 strength as a size bonus. You can craft and read a manual of gainful exercise +5 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book-manual-of-gainful-exercise) for a +5 inherent bonus to strength. You could become addicted to zerk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs/zerk) for up a +4 alchemical bonus to strength. That's 44 strength, still 2 short of what you need. The only remaining option I'm aware of is the profane gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus) of a succubus for a +2 profane strength bonus. Now you can cast blood money and take 45 strength damage and still be one point shy of going unconscious.

Bear in mind that unless you've taken a three level dip into cleric, and then leveled up as a mystic theurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/mystic-theurge), you will have to pay 280 gp for a cleric to cast mighty strength each time you need it. To keep things easy, let's say you've gone ahead and taken that dip. Also, if you'd rather not involve a succubus, you could probably manage to have 19 base strength without too much added difficulty compared to the rest of this, but it really depends on your starting build. If you're using an established character, you may very well not even be able to do this.

By yourself, this is going to be a slow but steady process. You'd cast greater create demiplane, then mighty strength, form of the dragon, then blood money, then permanency. Mighty strength would wear off in about 15 minutes (assuming Wiz 3/Clr 3/Mystic Theurge 12), so you'd cast lesser restoration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/restoration) on yourself about 18 times to get rid of all that strength damage. Without any pearls of power, you'd be able to go through this whole process about once a day, with your main limit simply being that you probably can't cast more than two 8th-level wizard spells per day.

Now, how do you make the plane faster? Assuming your arcane bond is an item, that's an extra spell per day. Adding on a pearl of power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl-of-power) for 8th level spells would let you go through this whole process about twice a day, and you'd be up to a total of 218,500 gp out of an expected 530,000 gp for an 18th-level character's wealth by level.

Faster? When making the plane, use one of your castings of greater create demiplane to give the plane enhanced magic. This will add +2 to your caster level, so you make two extra 10-foot cubes with each casting.

Faster still? Give your plane the flowing time trait. Time passes on your plane twice as quickly as it does on the material plane, so you're getting two days of work done for every day that passes on the material plane. At this point, you can add 68 10-foot cubes of permanent space to your plane for each day that passes on the material plane. You'd need about 6 and a half days to make an acre of space on your plane, and it would have a 10 ft. ceiling.

Even faster? Get the magical knack trait and apply it to your wizard side. Now you can make 76 10-foot cubes per day, and you could make an acre in 5 and a quarter days. You could make a square mile in 10 years and 18 days.

Super fast? Get an orange prism ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/orange-prism-ioun-stone) so you can make 80 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 9 years and 200 days.

Scary fast? Make simulacrums (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum) of yourself. Have your horde of simulacrums cast restoration on you to fix your ability damage while you concentrate on making the plane. With healing out of the way, you can cast form of the dragon III just once, then do blood money, permanency, and greater create demiplane three times each (casting once with the pearl of power, once with your bonded item, and once as a memorized spell). Now you make 120 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 6 years and 134 days.

Frighteningly fast? Make your school specialization conjuration. One extra spell per day. Now you make 160 10-foot cubes per day, and a square mile in 4 years and 303 days.

Insanely fast? Get a ring of sustenance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance) so you only need two hours of sleep to rest enough for preparing arcane spells. Note this won't help with cleric spells, but assuming you can cast mighty strength six times, you'd be able to cast greater create demiplane and make it permanent a total of 19 times per day on your plane, or 38 times per day that passes on the material plane. That's 760 10-foot cubes per standard day (over an acre per day!) and a square mile in one year and two days.

How the f**?! Ramp up your wisdom or get sixth level pearls of power so you can cast mighty strength on yourself five more times per day, and get the fast study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/fast-study) discovery. Once you're done casting, end the dragon form so you pass out, have a good nap for two hours, and then have your simulacrums wake you up with healing so you can spend 7 to 8 minutes preparing just the spells you need to do it all over again. You should be able to cast greater create demiplane and make it permanent a total of 68 times for each day that passes on the material plane. You make 1,360 10-foot cubes per day (over three acres per day!) and a square mile in 205 days.

I don't even? To go beyond this, use the ridiculous economic potential of your simulacrums to get the money needed to make 8th level pearls of power. For example, if you have the false focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/false-focus) feat, have your simulacrums sell tens of thousands of torches of continual flame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/continual-flame) flame per day across the world, even across the planes. Have other simulacrums make the pearls of power for you in their spare time. You will need more and more simulacrums, but with them you may fairly quickly reach the theoretical limit of planar expansion. Each time you get 68 new pearls of 1st, 5th, and 8th level each, take a day off to make 68 new simulacrums (or whatever amount more that you can make with the ridiculous amounts of pearls of power that you have). As you get more simulacrums, they'll make pearls for you faster, so you'll make simulacrums faster, so they'll make pearls faster, etc. You enter a period of rapid exponential growth. Rather quickly, you hit your theoretical limit of planar expansion by making about 264,000 10-foot cubes per day that passes on the material plane (606 acres), so you make 94.6% of a square mile per day, basically. You basically alternate between create greater demiplane and then blood money+permanency nonstop while awake, stopping only for two hours to sleep each day. In the span of a year, you now add 345 square miles to your kingdom. This is basically about 3 and a half hexes as specified in the kingdom building (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building) rules.

Will that work for you?

So, I've been collecting things to help with Blood Money. Here's what I have.


Form of the Dragon 3
+10 Size


Blood Rage
+10 Morale


Ring of Inner Fortitude
+6 Prevented


Heart of the Mammoth
+8 Enhancement


Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess
+8 Inherent


Zerk
+1d4 Alchemical


That's 43 to 46 before you add in your base strength, which can easily bring you to 50.