The Case of Ungra Balan [OC]

[Beheld]

This is the OC thread. Feel free to discuss text colors and any previous interactions you might have had that link your characters.

The Party is currently:
Finley Balmoral (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=642218)
Kamus Crawford (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=642400)
Shin ClearCrystal (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=82636)
Scarlet Cooper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=642328)
Hero Sindragon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=642332)

You should all make a roll20 account if you do not have one already and PM me your names. The game will take place mostly here on PbP, but we will use the roll20 maps I have set up. If you would like specific tokens just PM me a link to the token file you would like, or you can pick from default roll20 tokens.

For my own simplicity:
+4/+4
+1/+1
+1/+1
-1/-1
-1/+4

[J-H]

I'll take blue.

[Chimaera]

I'll go with Fire brick.

[Gabrosin]

Hero posts in majestic purple. Thanks for selecting me for the game, DM! I'll make my first IC post tonight, after work.

[JNAProductions]

Scarlet will take Bold Red.

[Beheld]

You might not be travelling together, but since you can hit them all with it in the next 4 standard actions, you can do that on your way to the farm miles away.

[Sgt. Suitable]

Hi gang! I'll take orange, and I'm off to make a roll20 account.

[Chimaera]

Made my account in roll20 and PM'd you the nickname.

:smallbiggrin:

[Beheld]

Hmm apparently I can't figure out how to invite people by roll20 name, so I guess check your PMs and accept.

[JNAProductions]

Diggity done.

[Chimaera]

Done, but apparently cant see it on phone.
Will try later on computer

[Beheld]

If you join now, you will be spoilered to find out that I don't intend to murder you before you get there :)

You can search for tokens, or give me an image to upload as your token, at which point I will create tokens for you all.

[Chimaera]

Last night i was with a bottle of wine in my head and woke ip with the notebook by my side. :smallbiggrin:

I'll check now.

Edit: Watched the video tutorial and made a few test.
It's nice.

[Beheld]

Well, you have your directions from before, anyone have anything else to do before party heads out? At least one person still isn't on roll20.

[Chimaera]

Probably no.
We are ready for action!

But, if the farm is less than one hour from here, Kamus will cast Mage Armor before going.

[Beheld]

Well, if you can walk 20ft per round, then you can walk 2 miles in one hour, so you are probably exactly one hour away if you wait for Finley.

Speaking of, Sgt. Suitable you have speed at 15ft, but should probably be 20ft, since Dwarves are not slowed by armor.

EDIT: Still need tokens for everyone, I'll start with generic ones, and if you guys want a specific one you can let me know and we can change it.

[Chimaera]

Okay, so Kamus will have 2h left of Mage Armor when they reach the farm (if nothing goes wrong on the way :smallwink:

[JNAProductions]

So are we supposed to be on Roll20 right now?

[Beheld]

So are we supposed to be on Roll20 right now?

You will probably want to go look at it as soon as make the IC post. I don't intend to do this live, but you can move your characters on roll 20 at any time, even if I'm not there, so you can take your actions as you would like whenever you post.

EDIT: FYI, when using the ruler to measure, you can hold alt to have it not snap to grid, so you can start at a corner to better measure your spells, breath weapons, ect. I wish I could set it to snap to corner automatically, however that is unfortunately not a feature.

EDIT2: While I am talking about changes to character sheets, Shin should probably not have all his gold values in the weight colum, while I appreciate that the auto adding is helpful, it is currently giving you a -6 ACP from being overweight.

[Beheld]

It occurs to me that even if the two remaining people take actions still you will not be ready to roll init, and rather than have you all declare your moves again, I will just assume that all three of the current movers continue moving, and the two remainders can quantum move/not move as the like, they can be 30-40ft further forward, or not as they like, and in the future you guys can just nominate someone to go first around corners so forth.

As the fastest person, Scarlet will suffer the honor of bait for this fight.

EDIT: Going forward, do you have any objection to me rolling knowledge and saves for you to speed things up? I don't want everyone waiting to see who failed their saves before making decisions. Definitely in the current case I'm rolling Knowledge checks for everyone as you see the monster.

[Gabrosin]

I'm fine with you making reactive rolls on our behalf, like saves, knowledge checks when appropriate, and listen/spot rolls. Please assume that Hero will use Collector of Stories each combat to give +5 to the monster identification check; in the event of more than one monster type, he'd prefer to use it on the scariest-looking one but selecting randomly is fine too.

Hero will continue to move along with Scarlet near the front of the group, but hasn't actually started making noise louder than talking yet. I kind of left the hook hanging expecting someone to stop him.

[J-H]

Nah, go ahead and draw them out. This way they are coming at us from a distance instead of up close.

[Beheld]

You can edit a post with rolls in it, and as long as you don't touch the rolls, they will all stay the same, however, you can't roll new rolls when editing a post. FYI, I went through and rolled knowledge checks for everyone who had the appropriate skill, and will continue to do so in the future, so that way I don't have to give away the type :)

Although, presumably Scarlet will be telling you what it is to at least some extent.

I feel better now that you made all the saves, so you get a standard action :)

[Beheld]

JNA, "any creature that takes damage from your breath weapon becomes entangled and takes an extra 1d6 points of damage" So your slow breath isn't going to entangle.

EDIT: Also, looks like you are nauseous, so you can't take a standard action. So I guess no breath weapon for you, you can take a move action if you'd like.

[JNAProductions]

Huh. Swap that to Frost Breath, then, for [roll0]/2 damage.

[Beheld]

Huh. Swap that to Frost Breath, then, for [roll0]/2 damage.

Well, actually you are nauseated, so no breath at all it looks like.

"Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn."

[Chimaera]

Just got back from marriage and will probably hit the bed. :smallsmile:

We are alive yet, right? :smalltongue:

[Beheld]

Just got back from marriage and will probably hit the bed. :smallsmile:

We are alive yet, right? :smalltongue:

Currently alive :) You need to make a will save and then take your actions, it can wait till tomorrow, since we are waiting on everyone right now.

[J-H]

Will save [roll0]

[Beheld]

So far as it effects future actions, the monster made the save against ego whip, and was not rendered comatose by 2 Cha damage.

[J-H]

That's no ordinary bug... oh well, at least it's not a space station.

[Chimaera]

Will save: [roll0]

[Beheld]

JNA, you should probably read the knowledge info for you I made a slight update to the Energy Resistance, which may effect your decisions in the future when you are not nauseas, and you may want to inform others of that fact.

[Chimaera]

Hmmm... Nothing yet? :smallconfused:

[JNAProductions]

Still Sickened.

[Beheld]

Still Sickened.

Uh... Sorry, you are Nauseated the first round, sickened after, so while you won't be able to take a standard action, you can still take a move action. While you are probably vomiting, it doesn't mean you couldn't choke out some advice.

As for our missing Druid... well, he is quite missing, since I can't see much in the way of particularly effective spells for him to cast, I'll leave him there as a decoy and reach out to my next choice character from the thread, if he doesn't want to join, we will go on with four people and be glad I choose five instead of four.

EDIT: Wasn't there a Barbarian 1/Cleric 2 sheet submitted by someone? I can't seem to find it anywhere in the thread.

[Sgt. Suitable]

Hi guys, I've had a really busy weekend.. Just got home and sat down to plow through the gitp forums for updates. Sorry for the delay.

Edit: it might be smart for me to bow out and let someone else have a go. This early on in the game it's not so bad I hope? I don't see my schedule getting easier and I want to be able to keep up with everything instead of slowing it down.. Hope you don't mind?

[Beheld]

Hi guys, I've had a really busy weekend.. Just got home and sat down to plow through the gitp forums for updates. Sorry for the delay.

Edit: it might be smart for me to bow out and let someone else have a go. This early on in the game it's not so bad I hope? I don't see my schedule getting easier and I want to be able to keep up with everything instead of slowing it down.. Hope you don't mind?

Well there he is, so problem half solved. Still need to find that barbarian/cleric character.

[Gabrosin]

DM, can I execute a charge at the bug from my current position, or is Kamus sufficiently blocking my path? I don't remember her being there last time I looked but I guess maybe she moved before I got to go.

Assuming I can't charge, can I reach the bug in a single move action of 30' or not?

[Beheld]

This didn't show as updated for whatever reason, yes Kamus moved during his turn. You can move 30ft and be adjacent to it in the location I put you in. Feel free to move yourself back and around if you want, but based on your question, I assume you want to be there.

[Chimaera]

This didn't show as updated for whatever reason, yes Kamus moved during his turn. You can move 30ft and be adjacent to it in the location I put you in. Feel free to move yourself back and around if you want, but based on your question, I assume you want to be there.

Yes she did move.
Also, Kamus is a girl :smalltongue:

[Beheld]

Hey JNA. Remember how you used a slow breath. Remember how you don't have Slow breath written anywhere on your character sheet, probably because you can't even have slow breath until level 5?

I only found this out because you keep saying your character moves but not moving him in the roll 20 map, so I had to figure out the actual distance, but that turned out to be pointless, because you can't slow breath.

[JNAProductions]

I sincerely apologize. I've got about a half dozen DFAs, and most of them DO have slow breath.

I'll just retract my action entirely, then, to make up for it.

[Beheld]

I sincerely apologize. I've got about a half dozen DFAs, and most of them DO have slow breath.

I'll just retract my action entirely, then, to make up for it.

You can take another action if you like. I'll just be crying in the corner while this monster TPKs the party because you have no one who does non energy damage in significant amounts, and the monster is also immune to mind affecting which would negate the one Sleep effect, and Ego Whip victories. T_T

[JNAProductions]

Alright, straight frost breath.

[roll0]

Crap! That's 2d6. Aw well, didn't do damage anyway.

Man, I keep buggering things up. Okay-so I only do 2d6 damage, and only have Fire and Frost breath available. I WILL REMEMBER THIS!

[Gabrosin]

You can take another action if you like. I'll just be crying in the corner while this monster TPKs the party because you have no one who does non energy damage in significant amounts, and the monster is also immune to mind affecting which would negate the one Sleep effect, and Ego Whip victories. T_T

We're only level 3 characters, man. No one here made Pun Pun. Something with DR/(thing we don't have), Energy Resistance (everything) (more than we can reliably do), flight, pounce, and an attack that forces saves and strips away actions is going to kill us, yeah. We have neither the levels nor the wealth to be individually prepared for such a threat, and it's not something we could have coordinated as a party because we all literally just met an hour ago in game time. And the man who gave us this quest implied there were more than one of these things around, which is why Hero's not trying to inspire courage... not that it would matter, since no one else in the party is using melee attacks on it and his Dragonfire Inspiration would result in energy damage which the enemy would resist.

I'll post IC again after work tonight, but if Hero tries one or two more attacks that fail, or gets hit again for a huge chunk of damage, he's going to be fleeing to the best of his ability.

[Beheld]

We're only level 3 characters, man. No one here made Pun Pun. Something with DR/(thing we don't have), Energy Resistance (everything) (more than we can reliably do), flight, pounce, and an attack that forces saves and strips away actions is going to kill us, yeah. We have neither the levels nor the wealth to be individually prepared for such a threat

There were supposed to be five of you at level 3, and it's CR 4. You don't need pun-pun, a Wizard casting glitterdust and a Rogue could kill this thing in two rounds, a Barbarian could probably just trade stabs and with very minimal support win. Anyone with a Strength Score, could just grab this thing and keep it pinned forever while a Rogue got SA every round. A Cold Iron Longsword costs 30gp. I'm not saying it's your guys fault (that much) it's just an unfortunate coincidence that the starting encounter I designed before I started recruiting featured a CR 4 enemy that was strong against a whole bunch of character types I did accept, and weak against a whole bunch of characters I didn't accept. Mostly because there were very few applications, and none of the standard types applied at all (IE, no big bruisers, no rogues, no Wizards who cast spells, one druid, but he choose a flavor/scout AC, and then he AFKed, no clerics (I thought there was a Barb/Cleric, but I can't find him, so I've decided I must be insane))

Although, spoiler alert, while their may or may not be more, the point of his comments is that he saw one of the creatures, and he felt like he was being swarmed by ants at that moment (the effect of a failed will save) not that he personally had seen tons of them.



Crap! That's 2d6. Aw well, didn't do damage anyway.

No, you have an item that makes it 3d6, you were right.

[J-H]

You're the DM, feel free to adjust monster stats as needed.

I've never seen anyone level 5 or under take silver or cold iron weapons unless there's advance warning that fey or lycanthropes are involved; they usually just don't register as worth the extra carrying weight until a Handy Haversack is available.

If you want, I could have a warblade ready to go tonight who could show up on the scene... not sure if you want to have 1 player running 2 characters, though.

[Gabrosin]

There were supposed to be five of you at level 3, and it's CR 4. You don't need pun-pun, a Wizard casting glitterdust and a Rogue could kill this thing in two rounds, a Barbarian could probably just trade stabs and with very minimal support win. Anyone with a Strength Score, could just grab this thing and keep it pinned forever while a Rogue got SA every round. A Cold Iron Longsword costs 30gp. I'm not saying it's your guys fault (that much) it's just an unfortunate coincidence that the starting encounter I designed before I started recruiting featured a CR 4 enemy that was strong against a whole bunch of character types I did accept, and weak against a whole bunch of characters I didn't accept. Mostly because there were very few applications, and none of the standard types applied at all (IE, no big bruisers, no rogues, no Wizards who cast spells, one druid, but he choose a flavor/scout AC, and then he AFKed, no clerics (I thought there was a Barb/Cleric, but I can't find him, so I've decided I must be insane))

You mentioned you modified this from a more powerful monster, and CRs are often misleading anyway. I can only speak to the capabilities I've seen from it so far. In three rounds it has succeeded on 18 attacks, and the party has collectively dealt it zero damage, despite attempting melee attacks, breath attacks, acid, fire, and mental attacks. Some of that has been poor rolling, but it would be hard to say we haven't tried a diverse range of options. As for cold iron, like J-H said, it's the sort of thing you purchase when you know a threat requires it; it would take some metagaming to have a level 3 character who has dedicated himself/herself to preparing for various DRs from day 1.

This is coming off as complaining, but it's not intended to be. I don't think it's a bad thing for a party to face an obviously superior opponent, even on day one, as long as they're not trapped into the combat with no way out. Just don't be surprised when the answer is turning and running. Now we know what we're up against, we know it's vulnerable to cold iron, we know it's resistant to various energies... we can retreat to town, stock up on the things we need, come back and try again.

Even with good characters, this is a level where a handful of orcs is dangerous to the party if they get to go first and start rolling well. Winning every fight isn't a realistic outcome, and it's no surprise from what we've seen so far that we're not winning this one.

[Beheld]

You mentioned you modified this from a more powerful monster, and CRs are often misleading anyway. I can only speak to the capabilities I've seen from it so far. In three rounds it has succeeded on 18 attacks, and the party has collectively dealt it zero damage, despite attempting melee attacks, breath attacks, acid, fire, and mental attacks. Some of that has been poor rolling, but it would be hard to say we haven't tried a diverse range of options. As for cold iron, like J-H said, it's the sort of thing you purchase when you know a threat requires it; it would take some metagaming to have a level 3 character who has dedicated himself/herself to preparing for various DRs from day 1.

1) I modified it from a CR 4 monster to be less powerful. The starting point was a CR 4 monster, and I arguably weakened it by changing its tactics to be much more party friendly (except that right now I'm ignoring those tactics to murder the guy who withdrew from the game :smalleek: ). It was CR 4 before my change and had the same to hit, same DR, and same resists. (And the same one round nausea with the same DC.)
2) Having a 30gp backup weapon for different DR sources is something that you walk into by accident at level 1 and every melee damage only character has at level 2. If you only get weapons to bypass DR after something beats the crap out of you, then of course you are going to have the crap beaten out of you. It's certainly not metagaming to know that monsters with DR exist in the universe, since you probably ran into a blacksmith anywhere, and they had cold iron weapons and you could have asked them why, and the would have said "because some monsters resist normal DR."


Now we know what we're up against, we know it's vulnerable to cold iron, we know it's resistant to various energies... we can retreat to town, stock up on the things we need, come back and try again.

Maybe JNA will explain the disadvantages to that plan.

[Gabrosin]

1) I modified it from a CR 4 monster to be less powerful. The starting point was a CR 4 monster, and I arguably weakened it by changing its tactics to be much more party friendly. It was CR 4 before my change and had the same to hit, same DR, and same resists. (And the same one round nausea with the same DC.)
2) having a 30gp backup weapon for different DR sources is something that you walk into by accident at level 1 and every melee damage only character has at level 2. If you only get weapons to bypass DR after something beats the crap out of you, then of course you are going to have the crap beaten out of you. It's certainly not metagaming to know that monsters with DR exist in the universe, since you probably ran into a blacksmith anywhere, and they had cold iron weapons and you could have asked them why, and the would have said "because some monsters resist normal DR."

Not every low-level character is an experienced dungeon delver who is prepared for anything. Mine in particular is not; he would likely have gained his 3000 XP so far by traveling from city to city and town to town, taking on odd tasks, and fighting the occasional animal or humanoid. I can't speak to the backgrounds of the remainder of the party. I started him with the sort of gear I would expect him to have acquired by this point, not the perfect gear set for handling every challenge he might face.


Maybe JNA will explain why that is a terrible idea that is absolutely terrible.

Hero has absolutely no way to know that right now. So far all he knows is that in spite of having a reasonable amount of lore about various monsters in his head, he has no information of his own about what this thing is, and he's got someone he just met today telling him that the thing is vulnerable to cold iron, which he doesn't possess. Even if he were to possess perfect knowledge about the creature, he would probably pursue the same plan, seeing as it is a preferable alternative to being stung six times a round until death by something he has been unable to harm with his sword.

[J-H]

Where can this CR4 monster be found? I'm guessing FF or MM 3-5, where the CRs got kind of...odd.

As a Psion, there are only two first-level powers that can hurt this: Crystal Shard, fully augmented to 3pp for 3d6 damage (average 11.5) minus the DR, and possibly Energy Ray, if it's not resistant to sonic and if I can hit a Ranged Touch attack (1d20+3 vs touch AC of probably 12, so 45% miss chance, to do 3d6-3 damage (average 8.5)).

Concussion Blast (2nd level) does Force damage, but at 1d6 per 3pp, it's a pretty sorry power. Energy Push/Stun may also hurt it, but it's 1d6-1 or 2d6-2 sonic per 3pp.

Mages might have a few more options, but not many; Magic Missile is probably the best bet.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, looking at this thing's stats... It's going to crush us. I'm just going to repost the info Beheld gave me, since Scarlet will tell everyone as soon they're away safely (fingers crossed) and the main things (ER and DR) are already known.

IC: You recall seeing a picture of this monstrous bug creatures before in a book describing an odd subtype of demons. They are known for having true seeing and being just really horrific to look at, so monstrous that their very appearance causes suffering. You remember that unlike other demons, they are not immune to electricity, instead being minorly resistant to all energy types (ER 10).

In particular you recall that this monster was described as being so sickening to look at that it made spellcasting distracting, implanting eggs into those it attacks, which hatch into grubs that eat their way out of people, temporarily crippling them in the process and producing more creatures very quickly, being able to fly very quickly and strike with all it's tails after closing with people far away, fast healing 5, DR 5/cold iron or lawful 5, being able to attack with 6 stinging tails and a bite at +10 for tails and +5 for bite, having an AC of 17, 14 touch and flat footed, and for following a pattern in combat of implanting as many eggs as possible into each creature it is fighting then retreating to await it's young hatching before reengaging and implanting more eggs into any who survive the birthing.

Regarding the implanting, can be cured with remove disease, or a heal check DC 15 which does 1d4 damage and a full round action for each egg. Otherwise the grubs do more damage when they come out, and nauseate again. (Will be in an hour if not cured by then).

Edit: So I asked my veteran 3.5 player friends about this, and their response can be summed up as "You're effed. Even if you had cold iron."

So, Beheld... I dunno. Work on balance a little more?

Edit the second: It's an Ekolid, right? Assuming yes...

It has a fly speed of 60'. It's faster than me, and I'm faster than all y'all. We can't even run.

[J-H]

Wow.
A full-BAB character with 18 strength and a masterwork weapon has a +8, so only hits 55% of the time. If he hits for 1d12+6 (greataxe+str bonus) - average 12.5/hit, then...
Over 4 rounds, he hits for 25 damage, of which 10 is resisted. The creature heals up to 20hp over those 4 rounds, leaving a net -5 damage inflicted by a melee character. Even with a cold iron weapon, he's got a net 5 damage inflicted.

Trolls have regeneration 5, have fewer attacks, and a lower AB, and no secondary effects and are CR5. Add in the energy resistances and flight and I'd rate this at a CR7.

[JNAProductions]

I have once again communed with the great minds of 3.5!

They agree with your assessment. CR 7 seems reasonable.

[Gabrosin]

Ultimately it doesn't matter. In character, all that most of us know is that we're significantly overmatched in this fight, and we have to figure out what to do about it.

[JNAProductions]

Well, we haven't tried running yet. IC, we should probably just flee, then, upon realizing it's faster...

Who wants to make a heroic stand and face down the monster while the rest of us run?

[Gabrosin]

Well, we haven't tried running yet. IC, we should probably just flee, then, upon realizing it's faster...

Who wants to make a heroic stand and face down the monster while the rest of us run?

Well we're already sacrificing Finley, maybe he'll hold its attention. It may also leave after it thinks it has implanted us with eggs. I'm not willing to accept that we're just dead, because that would make this a very short and boring campaign. So we'll see what happens.

[JNAProductions]

I meant ONE PERSON volunteer to make a heroic last stand. Not everyone.

All the same, here's hoping it lets us run in peace.

[J-H]

If we need someone to do melee, I can roll up a Warblade.

[Gabrosin]

My character will grow steadily more competent at melee combat as he levels, but his real advantage is being a force multiplier for other melee/ranged attacks. I had thought the druid would benefit the most, either from his own attacks or his summoned creatures, but I guess he's out of the picture now. Our DFA will probably also benefit in between breath attacks.

If we're going to add another character, I second the DM's suggestion of a divine caster.

[JNAProductions]

What do you mean "Between breath attacks"? They're at-will. :P

[Gabrosin]

What do you mean "Between breath attacks"? They're at-will. :P

Ah, I thought it had a recovery time between each one. Never mind then :smallsmile:

[JNAProductions]

On the bright side, our characters should bond through shared trauma. Right?

[Beheld]

Wow.
A full-BAB character with 18 strength and a masterwork weapon has a +8, so only hits 55% of the time. If he hits for 1d12+6 (greataxe+str bonus) - average 12.5/hit, then...
Over 4 rounds, he hits for 25 damage, of which 10 is resisted. The creature heals up to 20hp over those 4 rounds, leaving a net -5 damage inflicted by a melee character. Even with a cold iron weapon, he's got a net 5 damage inflicted.

A Powerattacking Raging Half Orc Barbarian with a 30gp cold iron longsword would have a Str of 26, and would therefore charge attack at +10 for 1d8+18 damage. If he gets lucky enough to hit on his second attack the next round at +8, he would do enough damage to knock it unconscious in 2 rounds and anyone nearby could coup de grace.

A fighter with 18 str and 3 BAB could grapple it and have a +7 grapple against it's +3 to escape as a standard action, winning a second one to pin, and then repeatedly repinning would allow everyone else to attack it at AC 10 and the rogue getting SA, and the monster would be able to do nothing but spend a standard action trying to escape the pin.


Trolls have regeneration 5, have fewer attacks, and a lower AB, and no secondary effects and are CR5. Add in the energy resistances and flight and I'd rate this at a CR7.

A troll hitting with a single claw would does more damage than the entire full attack routine of this creature. A troll that hits on two claws does 29 damage. This creature, if it hits on all attacks, does average of 17.5. The status effect isn't nothing, but it's offensive output is much less than a troll, living vs dead pcs different. A troll has nearly twice the hitpoints, doesn't have an easily bypassed DR, or the energy resists of this creature, but remember that damage dealt to a troll with a weapon at all is going to be non-lethal. And unlike this monster, a character with 18 str and 3 BAB wouldn't be able to completely render a troll incapable of attacks.

A CR 6 Devil, the Chain Devil, has DR 5/silver or good, Immunity to cold and fire, resistance to acid 10, Regeneration 2 (all but silver and good damage), SR 18, and attacks with range 15ft with four attacks as a standard action at +10 for average 9 damage per attack. Also 60hp.

A Hellcat, CR 7 has 4 attacks on a pounce, doing average damage 5d8+12 damage, DR 5/good, so not easily bypassable, is invisible in light, has Fire immunity and SR 19.

A CR Babau demon has Lighting Immunity, resistance to acid cold and fire 10, SR 14, DR 10/cold iron or good, and in addition to SLAs, does 3d6+12 damage with a possibility of 9d6SA each round.

This is so far away from a CR 7 that it genuinely pisses me off to read that.

Like, I understand that no one in this entire party has non-energy damage, and you had a good mind affecting cripple power, so it unfortunately has the defenses against all of what you guys are best designed for, but this is not a CR 7, it's a CR 4.


Edit: So I asked my veteran 3.5 player friends about this, and their response can be summed up as "You're effed. Even if you had cold iron."

So, Beheld... I dunno. Work on balance a little more?

You may or may not be screwed. But this is a CR 4 that is easily handled by lots of level 3-4 parties. Maybe instead of telling me to work on balance, you could maybe, across 5 people, approximate one standard party for a game in which I specifically warned people that I wouldn't be playing monsters down to the low op level that people on this forum seem to believe is the only thing that exists.

[JNAProductions]

Couldn't the grappled demon just, I dunno... Murder the fighter?

Also, how are you getting +18 damage from that?

Edit: Wielding it two handed, I would assume. So why not wield a greatsword instead?

Edit II: Also, don't grapples provoke attacks of oppurtunity?

Edit III: Don't barbarians also only get one rage a day? So that's blowing all their daily resources on one fight. And having a weapon that we had NO IDEA we'd need. (Because we couldn't make knowledge checks in advance.)

Edit IV: Also, even if some parties can take this thing on just fine, we clearly cannot. I don't think it's too much to ask you look at party composition when creating challenges.

Edit V: Although it is reasonable to say "Not every challenge can be surmounted", there's the slight issue that it's faster than us. So we can't really run away unless it lets us. Which, okay, makes sense? Kinda? But it's not fun.

Edit VI: This thing can fly faster than we can run, can fly out of our reach, and is capable of making ranged attacks via weapons, as well as effectively pouncing Spring Attacks. The only chance we'll get to grapple this thing is by readying an action, meaning the grapple happens on it's turn. Grappling only works if we hit its touch AC, it doesn't hit us with it's AoO, and we succeed on the opposed grapple check; if any of those three things don't happen, it doesn't get grappled. And if it gets grappled, since it's still the creatures turn, it just full attacks the grappler for lots of damage and a bunch of fort saves vs Nauseate...which would prevent them from maintaining the grapple on their turn.

If this thing is being played optimally, it wouldn't use tactics that come with downsides like 'you can get charged by a power-attacking barbarian' or downsides like 'you get gimped by a grapple-Fighter', because it has options that keep it out of range of both of those dedicated melee guys.

The fact remains that the biggest problem we have fighting this thing is that we were given no chance to figure out cold iron weapons were needed nor any OoC indication that we would need them.

[Beheld]

Couldn't the grappled demon just, I dunno... Murder the fighter?

No, he could attack one round with a -4 penalty to all attacks for an average damage of 15 damage, and then the next round he would be pinned, and then be unable to make melee attacks, and have to spend his standard action using escape artist untrained at +3 against the Fighter/Barbarians +7-11.


Also, how are you getting +18 damage from that?

Edit: Wielding it two handed, I would assume. So why not wield a greatsword instead?

Because people were complaining about a party with 500gp (or a thousand, I can't remember how much extra I gave) more than WBL per person didn't have enough wealth to afford cold iron weapons, so even though a Greatsword is objectively better for this, it would be 100gp spent on a backup weapon (A Masterwork Silver Item would probably be main weapon) instead of 30gp.


Edit II: Also, don't grapples provoke attacks of oppurtunity?

Initiating a grapple might provoke and AoO (probably don't have improved grapple) but once grapple has been initiated, that is basically it for the monster, since it has one round either spend it's standard action attempting to escape with a very low success rate.


Edit III: Don't barbarians also only get one rage a day? So that's blowing all their daily resources on one fight. And having a weapon that we had NO IDEA we'd need. (Because we couldn't make knowledge checks in advance.)

I gave 2 bonus feats, and Extra Rage exists and is basically mandatory for low level Barbarians.

Knowing that it's a good idea to have all 3 of the weapon types that exist and bypass DR is really not a weird thing that only the most learned and estoric of character would know. Anyone who has ever walked into a blacksmith saw racks of silver and cold iron and adamantium swords, and surely would have asked why they exist. I certainly wouldn't expect a Psion or DFA or Wizard to have a cold iron weapon, but if someone plans to hit things in the face with a sword on a regular basis, having three weapons seems like the way to go, especially at low levels where you lose almost nothing from switching weapons.


Edit IV: Also, even if some parties can take this thing on just fine, we clearly cannot. I don't think it's too much to ask you look at party composition when creating challenges.

It kind of 100% is, since I designed the first 20 encounters before recruiting, which is why I specifically asked for higher op characters, and picked the ones that could accomodate that like, the Psion, Wizard, and Druid (and a Crusader/Bard that in my head was a lot stronger and less every stat at 14ish).


Edit V: Although it is reasonable to say "Not every challenge can be surmounted", there's the slight issue that it's faster than us. So we can't really run away unless it lets us. Which, okay, makes sense? Kinda? But it's not fun.

I'd be more concerned about the fact that if you run away the farmstead is overrun with somewhere between "definitely more than one" and "500" of these things when you get back. Since I modified the incubation time from one round to one hour, it will actually stop attacking after it implants everyone (except Finley, because the player withdrew, so I'm killing him first).


Edit VI: This thing can fly faster than we can run, can fly out of our reach, and is capable of making ranged attacks via weapons, as well as effectively pouncing Spring Attacks. The only chance we'll get to grapple this thing is by readying an action, meaning the grapple happens on it's turn. Grappling only works if we hit its touch AC, it doesn't hit us with it's AoO, and we succeed on the opposed grapple check; if any of those three things don't happen, it doesn't get grappled. And if it gets grappled, since it's still the creatures turn, it just full attacks the grappler for lots of damage and a bunch of fort saves vs Nauseate...which would prevent them from maintaining the grapple on their turn.

If this thing is being played optimally, it wouldn't use tactics that come with downsides like 'you can get charged by a power-attacking barbarian' or downsides like 'you get gimped by a grapple-Fighter', because it has options that keep it out of range of both of those dedicated melee guys.

It could try spring attacks, but since readied action grapples have the exact same success rate as other grapples, it probably wouldn't. And since it has specific tactics that it uses that are not that, it would not do that. It can't attack with ranged weapons at all, first off, because it does not have them, second because it does not have the requisite appendages to use them, and thirdly because doing so would directly prevent it from accomplishing it's actual goal.


The fact remains that the biggest problem we have fighting this thing is that we were given no chance to figure out cold iron weapons were needed nor any OoC indication that we would need them.

If you need to be given a list of every monster that you will fight in advance to be able to fight them, then you are in for a world of pain. Spoiler alert, I'm drawing monsters from the MMs, therefore some of them have DR Cold Iron, some of them Silver, and some of them DR/- Also some of them have energy resistance and immunity to everything, mind affecting immunity, are immune to fort saves, and pretty much have every other immunity in the game because those are things monsters have.

[JNAProductions]

He's still got a good to hit bonus, and that's a lot of hits.

We had no indication we needed cold iron. We were focused on getting items we KNEW would help, rather than things that MIGHT help.

Or it could... You know, full attack the fighter, and if the fighter fails a single fortitude save, it can't maintain the grapple. And that's assuming the grapple gets started.

Fair enough on the extra rages. Although you never gave any indication that special material weapons were common-they're typically assumed to be rare.

Okay-you designed them ahead of time. That doesn't mean they're set in stone.

Well, what do you expect us to do! We can't kill this thing!

Also, Edit VI appeared to be missed. Nevermind.

[Beheld]

Or it could... You know, full attack the fighter, and if the fighter fails a single fortitude save, it can't maintain the grapple. And that's assuming the grapple gets started.

The Grappler being Nauseated does not free them of the grapple, it delays their pin for one round, if they hit and the person fails their save.


Fair enough on the extra rages. Although you never gave any indication that special material weapons were common-they're typically assumed to be rare.

According to the rules in the DMG, a small or large town has a masterwork version of every single weapon of every material in the universe for sale (non magic). Multiple copies of each in fact, if you want. The Maximum value of an item is 3000gp, if it costs less than that, you can find it in a large town if you want it.


Also, Edit VI appeared to be missed:

I was responding to the post I quoted, I added responses to your most recent edit afterwords.

[JNAProductions]

Alright, all the little things aside, here's the main issue:

This isn't fun.

I understand that you might have planned out a good deal in advance. But fighting a monster that we have basically no chance of beating is not fun. Fighting a monster faster than us isn't fun.

And if your only response is "Shoulda done better", I'm not sure I want to play anymore.

[Gabrosin]

I don't think this is very productive, arguing over whether or not this challenge was "fair". D&D's not required to be fair. The DM can throw whatever demons, dragons, or epic level wizards he wants at us. The only question is what we would do when faced with such a challenge. In this case, we've done a pretty good job of demonstrating we can't substantially harm this thing, so the logical decision would be for our characters to run. If the monster chases us and kills us while we attempt to flee, so be it. If running means a swarm of these things is waiting for whoever goes to the farmstead next, then that's the product of our decision, but it would hardly be any different if we stayed, fought to our last breaths, and died. If we do get away, I don't see any particular motivation to return to flying egg-implanting machine; I'd rather inform the townsfolk of the serious danger nearby, give them a choice what to do about it, and if no one there is capable of helping us handle the threat, then it's probably time to travel to the nearest city and try to rouse more powerful entities into action... especially given Scarlet's knowledge about this thing and its purpose. Armies have been raised for less.

As for my character, my stats are optimal given the point buys we were given. Bardsaders have just the one dump stat, wisdom, and need to balance the needs of melee with the needs of spellcasting. My character has plenty of additional sources of damage beyond his base strength score. Furious Counterstrike gets him +1 to attack and damage if he took damage in the previous round. Knowledge Devotion gets him a minimum of +1 and sometimes +2 or +3, but of course this creature fell into one of the two knowledge categories he had yet to put a point in, because extraplanar opponents are not common foes for level 3 characters. Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration are also big helps, but since this got a surprise round on us, might have more of its friends nearby, and is resistant to the serious extra damage that DFI puts out, it doesn't help here. The Charging Minotaur maneuver gets him an extra +2d6, but the one round he wanted to use that, Kamus stepped in and blocked his charge, so it wasn't an option. Point being, this particular fight has neutered most of my character's optimization, the same way it has done for the rest of the party.

If you gave me 18 strength and a cold iron longsword right now, I'm fairly sure we still couldn't kill this creature. Saying that you were expecting the party to have a greatsword-wielding barbarian or a dedicated grappler to take this thing on, when you selected no such thing from your entrants, isn't a failure you can lay on the party. It's fine to select the group that you did, it's fine to open with a monster that the selected group can't defeat, but it's not fine to be surprised when the inevitable outcome is that we attempt to run away.

[JNAProductions]

Well said, Gabrosin. And yeah, some of that back and forth was... Really unneeded. Sorry for cluttering up the OOC thread. I'll go give myself 30 lashes for that. :P

[Beheld]

You know, I honestly didn't even think it would be possible for you to derail this plot, but apparently you will.

[Gabrosin]

You know, I honestly didn't even think it would be possible for you to derail this plot, but apparently you will.

Sorry, sticking around and dying so that we can hatch into demons doesn't sound appealing to me.

[JNAProductions]

Well, Beheld, the question is this-are you able to handle us derailing the plot? Because, as PCs, that's what we do. We derail the plot. If you want something where all the characters do what you expect, then you write fantasy. But we're not you-we do our own things.

Are you able to roll with the punches, like a good DM should?

[Beheld]

Well, Beheld, the question is this-are you able to handle us derailing the plot? Because, as PCs, that's what we do. We derail the plot. If you want something where all the characters do what you expect, then you write fantasy. But we're not you-we do our own things.

Are you able to roll with the punches, like a good DM should?

Are you capable of speaking at all without attacking my DMing?

[JNAProductions]

I apologize. Could we just continue on with the game?

[Chimaera]

It sure was a busy night.
Will read what was said and say something.

[Chimaera]

Okay, I'm done reading.

Beheld: **** happens, but we can always clean the mess
We were warned and went as prepared as we thought would be enough, but it wasnt.

But it's ok.

Can I give a suggestion to help us not die?
Can one of us puppet the druid for this envounter before his body collapse from the many eggs? That would help.

Guys: if you're seeing we are going to be murdered and cant escape, we should at least try, right? Why save your resources when you're facing flying death? Inspiration away! Also... Doesnt the crusader have mountain hammer? If yes, that would be handy.

Kamus have little options aggainst this beast: she can turn her open 2nd level slot into something though, but for what I see Magic Missiles is.the only thing she can do for damage. But! Maybe Ray of Clumsynessay help? It probably use dexterity for its attack routine and, well, less AC might help?

There is no gain in crying over spilled milk, it was supppses to be a hard game so let's survive this encounter and learn from it, so next time even Kamus have some back up plan.

[Gabrosin]

Hero has only one level of crusader, so no Mountain Hammer. Charging Minotaur is his best damage-dealing strike. But it's easy enough to run the math and see that even with good luck, we're not going to overcome 45 HP, DR 5, and fast healing 5 with Charging Minotaur once every four rounds. And no one else melees.

[Beheld]

Hero has only one level of crusader, so no Mountain Hammer. Charging Minotaur is his best damage-dealing strike. But it's easy enough to run the math and see that even with good luck, we're not going to overcome 45 HP, DR 5, and fast healing 5 with Charging Minotaur once every four rounds. And no one else melees.

It doesn't have 45HP fyi.

[Gabrosin]

It doesn't have 45HP fyi.

Fair enough, I was just going by the stats I looked up once we started discussing this thing in depth OOC. Let's assume I go ahead and spend a round starting a normal inspire courage, using Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, and my masterwork natural horn to bump it up to +4 to attack and damage. Let's say I land but don't crit every time I swing. With no Furious Counterstrike (because this thing hitting me has a 50/50 shot of nauseating my attack away), no Knowledge Devotion, and no benefit from maneuvers, I'm getting 1d8+6 damage on it... averages to 11.5. Factor the DR and the fast healing, I'm doing 1.5 damage a round... assuming I never miss and it never nauseates me with its six attacks per round. I don't know how much HP it has, but if it's more than, say, 5, then I know that I alone will not down this thing in melee before it kills me. With the help of some summons from the druid or another damaging bruiser to take advantage of my inspire courage, maybe. Dragonfire inspiration would certainly get more raw damage output, +4d6 fire damage on each hit, but that only averages to 14 and it's going to resist the first ten, while its DR takes care of most of the 6.5 normal damage I'd be averaging. Scarlet's breath weapon does 3d6, average 11.5, of which it's going to resist the first ten again. Shin's ineffectiveness against the creature was already posted.

I don't see a reasonable alternative to running here.

[Beheld]

Fair enough, I was just going by the stats I looked up once we started discussing this thing in depth OOC. Let's assume I go ahead and spend a round starting a normal inspire courage, using Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, and my masterwork natural horn to bump it up to +4 to attack and damage. Let's say I land but don't crit every time I swing. With no Furious Counterstrike (because this thing hitting me has a 50/50 shot of nauseating my attack away), no Knowledge Devotion, and no benefit from maneuvers, I'm getting 1d8+6 damage on it... averages to 11.5. Factor the DR and the fast healing, I'm doing 1.5 damage a round... assuming I never miss and it never nauseates me with its six attacks per round. I don't know how much HP it has, but if it's more than, say, 5, then I know that I alone will not down this thing in melee before it kills me. With the help of some summons from the druid or another damaging bruiser to take advantage of my inspire courage, maybe. Dragonfire inspiration would certainly get more raw damage output, +4d6 fire damage on each hit, but that only averages to 14 and it's going to resist the first ten, while its DR takes care of most of the 6.5 normal damage I'd be averaging. Scarlet's breath weapon does 3d6, average 11.5, of which it's going to resist the first ten again. Shin's ineffectiveness against the creature was already posted.

I'm not saying that you have to fight just because it has less than 45HP, but Shin's effectiveness is literally the most effective member of the party. Between the maximum if he hits on all attacks 7 damage per round, a possible Ray of clumsiness to reduce its AC and to hit, Shins average 7.5 Sonic damage per round on a hit with a ranged attack that would probably also trigger Dragonfire Inspiration, and or benefit from Inspire, you are certainly vastly underestimating your potential.

But more importantly, the guy running away as fast as he can know that the creature plants eggs in people, and then leaves them alone until they hatch. So I cannot possibly stress enough how weird it is to see the two people the monster won't attack for another hour railing about how impossible this fight is and how you are all going to die, even though there is a zero% chance of you dying in the next 59 minutes.

[Gabrosin]

Right, so the creature is willing to let us escape after it's put eggs in us, which we know how to remove. That seems like a reasonable outcome to me, since we also know that if we do substantially harm this thing, it can fly away faster than any of us can possible chase it, so actually killing it dead is not within our capabilities anyway.

[Beheld]

Okay you win I quit.

After you run away from a creature that won't attack you and allow all the eggs to hatch and grubs to grow into a literal army, and go beg the people of the nearest city to save themselves because you are useless, a higher level party will go wipe out the infestation. But since you stopping his plans was the only link I had to the BBEG to the rest of the encounters against a level 3 party, and now it makes no sense either for him to instigate those encounters, or to give you the warning which would have helped you figure out what was going on, and since the further attempts against his plan are for higher level characters and/or are single encounters of even higher CR, and therefore are also going to result in your bravely running away to beg higher level characters to solve the problem for you, there is absolutely no reason to use any of the encounters I have prepared. Every single thing I prepared for the next 3 levels is now totally worthless, so this game is over.

[Gabrosin]

Sounds like exceptionally poor planning on your part, to have such a flimsy premise to start off your campaign. No offense, but I don't think you're cut out to be a DM. If your idea of a campaign is just a series of escalatingly difficult combats, you should just advertise it as an arena and be done with it.

[Beheld]

Sounds like exceptionally poor planning on your part, to have such a flimsy premise to start off your campaign. No offense, but I don't think you're cut out to be a DM. If your idea of a campaign is just a series of escalatingly difficult combats, you should just advertise it as an arena and be done with it.

I hear Red Hand of Doom works great if you run into the Hobgoblins and they beat up on you and then you run away and never come back and tell the people of Brindol there are mean hobgoblins attacking travelers and can they please take care of that for you. Pretty much all campaigns with any semblance of a plot require some introduction of the PCs to the issues in some way, if the PCs reject the concept of getting involved, they all break down.

[Gabrosin]

Suit yourself, man. It took half of one encounter before you grew hostile with a group of players who tried very hard to work with you and give you the benefit of the doubt. If your very first encounter was beyond the capabilities of the group YOU hand-selected to be part of your campaign, it's your problem, not ours. You're not entitled to having us fight to our deaths because your plot demands it.

[Beheld]

Suit yourself, man. It took half of one encounter before you grew hostile with a group of players who tried very hard to work with you and give you the benefit of the doubt. If your very first encounter was beyond the capabilities of the group YOU hand-selected to be part of your campaign, it's your problem, not ours. You're not entitled to having us fight to our deaths because your plot demands it.

Yes, that death that comes from not being attacked for an hour while you could search the farm and stomp out some grubs. or perhaps the damage that comes from maximum 7HP damage per round. I cry for your inevitable completely unpreventable deaths.

[J-H]

Any plan that involves someone NOT running away from the idea of getting eggs injected into them by a demon bug is a bad plan.

[JNAProductions]

7d4. That's average 17.5.

And wouldn't it be smart enough to just knock us unconscious? Guarantee the grubs last?

[Beheld]

7d4. That's average 17.5.

And wouldn't it be smart enough to just knock us unconscious? Guarantee the grubs last?

1) It is currently enfeebled and does 1d4-3 damage with every attack.
2) No, it's not very smart. It's going to use the tactics it is described as using in it's description.
3) Knocking you unconscious might be a good idea if it knew you were leveled PCs with the ability to get rid of them, and knowledge of what they were, but since so far it has no reason to think you are particularly resourceful, knowledgeable or dangerous, it won't risk that chance of your premature death.

[JNAProductions]

1) It's usually Dexterity based, so... I guess you changed that?

2) It's (again, usually) Int 10. That's plenty smart enough to knock people unconscious.

3) I've shown I've got knowledge about it, knowing its weakness is cold iron. So unless it can't understand Common, which might be a possibility, it should know we've got some knowledge.

[Beheld]

1) It's usually Dexterity based, so... I guess you changed that?

No, damage is usually str based. Because damage is always strength based. Which is why when it had 10 strength it was attacking for 1d4+0, because it had a +0 modifier. Now that it has 5 strength, it has a -3 modifier, and like all creatures with a -3 modifier it now has -3 damage.


2) It's (again, usually) Int 10. That's plenty smart enough to knock people unconscious.

I'm not saying that it is unaware of the unconscious condition, I am saying that given the information in front of it, it has no reason to believe that knocking you unconscious is worth the risk.


3) I've shown I've got knowledge about it, knowing its weakness is cold iron. So unless it can't understand Common, which might be a possibility, it should know we've got some knowledge.

Guessing right between the two types of material DR that exist and are not used on objects is different from being aware that it is laying eggs instead of poisoning you with it's injections.

[Gabrosin]

This remains unproductive. Doing one damage is roughly the same for this thing as doing 1d4, since you modified it to force a DC 15 save vs. losing your attack action on each hit. I've got a pretty decent +5 Fort save for a third level character, and I'm still going to lose my next action almost half the time each time it hits me... so if it's hitting me 3-4 times a round, I'll keep my action about 10% of the time or less.

Beheld, if you cannot see that this fight was never going to end with us killing the ekolid, I can't help you. You have described a couple of builds that you believe would be well-suited for this challenge, yet you selected us from among the applicants; you cannot claim surprise that we didn't build our characters that way. You listed equipment that would swing the odds in our favor, but you have access to all of our sheets; if you think we needed cold iron to win this fight, then you could have found a way in-character to provide that information, and it would have been our faults at that point for ignoring it. You can see that it has superior speed and movement (flight) to what we have, so it can escape if badly wounded, but you provide only one idea for stopping that, grappling it, which you can see none of our characters are built to succeed at. You apparently hinged your entire plot on the party winning the first encounter when even in a completely balanced fight, the party will sometimes get unlucky, lose, and have to retreat.

The single most important skill for a DM is to listen to his/her players and adapt. We tried telling you gently that this was an unreasonable encounter, listing off the reasons, warning you the direction our characters were headed... and all you did was insist that we didn't build our characters well enough to succeed and we should feel bad about it. If your campaign universe is one in which a hastily-assembled crew of level 3 characters is the only available option for staving off an invasion of demons into the Material Plane, well, I'm glad you've chosen to reveal this now, before we wasted any more of our time there.

I know that all of this is likely to fall on deaf ears, but seriously, consider what your players are unanimously telling you. You failed at DMing this campaign, but you can still learn from it and try again. Or you can stubbornly insist that your players were the problem here, and watch this happen to you again and again in the future.

[Beheld]

Doing one damage is roughly the same for this thing as doing 1d4, since you modified it to force a DC 15 save vs. losing your attack action on each hit.

I didn't modify it to have that ability, I modified it to wait an hour before doing 1d6 damage to you in addition to taking away your action. The monster as written still forces a save against nausea each time it hits you, it just also does 1d6 damage as the grubs burrow out of you the next round.


Beheld, if you cannot see that this fight was never going to end with us killing the ekolid, I can't help you. You have described a couple of builds that you believe would be well-suited for this challenge, yet you selected us from among the applicants; you cannot claim surprise that we didn't build our characters that way.

I can see a way that you could accomplish your goals in this fight, because I specifically modified the monster so that you could still accomplish the goals even if you couldn't kill it. The only surprise for me is your commitment to running away instead of pursuing the other readily available options even though at least one character, the one most committed to running, knows that doing so is going to result in a lot worse.


You listed equipment that would swing the odds in our favor, but you have access to all of our sheets; if you think we needed cold iron to win this fight, then you could have found a way in-character to provide that information, and it would have been our faults at that point for ignoring it.

I really did try to explain that I wasn't going to baby you through everything, I don't know why you think that I have to give you, in addition to 1k more gold than WBL, also all the items your character should already have. And I don't know why JNA thinks he should have a list of all encounters two days before each fight so he can plan for them, but I really did try to explain that I wasn't going to do that. I mean, I did modify the monster to give it a zero percent chance of killing you, but you and JNA have basically just taken that as an opportunity to spit in my face by running away instead of using the available free unimpeded time to explore the farmsteads.


You apparently hinged your entire plot on the party winning the first encounter when even in a completely balanced fight, the party will sometimes get unlucky, lose, and have to retreat.

Not really, in a completely balanced encounter, you pretty much never lose against CR = party level. In this case, you still, even if you lost, would be able to progress the plot by killing grubs, looking around, and looting, but you steadfastly refuse to do that, so the plot will not be advanced.


If your campaign universe is one in which a hastily-assembled crew of level 3 characters is the only available option for staving off an invasion of demons into the Material Plane, well, I'm glad you've chosen to reveal this now, before we wasted any more of our time there.

No, I told you, there are other people who can come in and clean up your mess. But since those other people thwarted the plans, the next days encounters would all be aimed at them, not you, and the next days, which are harder than this one, but could progress the story will just result in you running away again and begging them to save you again.


I know that all of this is likely to fall on deaf ears, but seriously, consider what your players are unanimously telling you. You failed at DMing this campaign, but you can still learn from it and try again. Or you can stubbornly insist that your players were the problem here, and watch this happen to you again and again in the future.

Just remember, no level 3 party ever has cheap as **** cold iron weapons, because you will never run into a demon, and if you do run into a Demon, well then just **** talk the DM about how he should learn to not use Demons while refusing to admit that you made a mistake.

But yes, I love when three of my players unanimously tell me something.

[Gabrosin]

Like I said, deaf ears. I'm done here.

[JNAProductions]

IC, all we know is that thing is wrecking us hardcore and we've barely scratched it. We do not know it's going to leave us alone, and in fact, it's stupid to do so, when it really should be knocking us unconscious.

Yes Scarlet knows leaving it untouched is dangerous. However, committing suicide to try and help is a lot less helpful than going somewhere safe and getting actual help. And then, since after our knowledge check we know cold iron is needed, we'll stock up on cold iron. (Though Scarlet can't-no decent weapon skills. And my breath weapon has a 1/4 chance of doing damage. Makes me rather useless.)

[J-H]

Since this game is apparently done with, I'm going to unfollow the threads and will miss future replies.

Beheld, I don't think any of us would complain if you chose to make a post in the Roleplaying or 3.5 Forums on this site, explaining the situation and linking to the game threads. You might feel better getting feedback from people who weren't involved.

[Chimaera]

Well, that definitly ruined my night :smallsigh:
Was thinking on how to proceed during work and when I can post the game's already over.

:smallfrown:

[JNAProductions]

Well, that definitly ruined my night :smallsigh:
Was thinking on how to proceed during work and when I can post the game's already over.

:smallfrown:

*Offers hugs*

I'm still around. I really want to play a DFA, so I'll sink with the ship. :P

[Chimaera]

*Offers hugs*

I'm still around. I really want to play a DFA, so I'll sink with the ship. :P

Not sure if he would allow for recruit new players and keep the game though.