No not now! Later!

[DireSickFish]

So in my next session I plan on introducing a problem that is above my players capacity to deal with, at least in combat. It can be nice as a DM to drop hints for later adventures or to maintain verisimilitude with the world and have threats the PC's just straight up can't handle. In D&D a party presented with any problem might try to fight there way to a solution when they've exhausted all other options. How do you in your games let the players know that threats are super-deadly-for-serious and not just your standard adventuring fair?

[gfishfunk]

So in my next session I plan on introducing a problem that is above my players capacity to deal with, at least in combat. It can be nice as a DM to drop hints for later adventures or to maintain verisimilitude with the world and have threats the PC's just straight up can't handle. In D&D a party presented with any problem might try to fight there way to a solution when they've exhausted all other options. How do you in your games let the players know that threats are super-deadly-for-serious and not just your standard adventuring fair?

1. Far too many enemies.
2. Bring an NPC with them to tell them, "This is currently above our pay-grade. They are too powerful."
3. Bring in an enemy that the players have had a hard time with recently, double the number of them to something the players could not handle, and then have the new threat easily dispatch them. Roll an attack, roll a damage, and let the players know just how much damage these guys are doing.
4. If the players push through anyway, tell them verbally "These guys WILL kill you."
5. If the players take out your incredible threat - give it to them. They worked for it. NOTHING kills PC motivation and fun more than taking out an incredible enemy only to have the victory pulled out from under them.

[Mr.Moron]

There was some good discussion on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?467248-Players-Estimating-the-difficulty-challenge-of-a-monster-or-group) over in the home brew forum. Which started with someone looking for codified rules, but went more into just general GMing techniques for communicating danger.

My own thoughts on the matter:




When describing it, you can get a bit colorful by adding some words to it's description:

"Looks like it could probably kick your ass"
"Looks like it'd really be difficult to take on"
"Looks way more dangerous than what you were facing before"
"Looks like it's easily twice as a strong as [insert monster that recently gave them a tough time]"

You can place it in a context that establishes it's power:

"Looking around the room you can see him sitting on crudely fashioned throne made of dragon bones. There is an especially massive ogre polishing his boots, it seems cowed and fearful"
"You arrive where the merchant says the caravan was attacked. The wagons are in tatters, off to the left is a pile of gold coins the heavy steel chest holding them seems to have been torn in half. Heavy footprints lead away from the scene, the crushed remains of a guard's skull is rotting in the nearest one. It seems like one of the horses might be missing for a moment until you look up, where you can see it impaled on the top of a tree"

You can have someone tell them a story as preface to the adventure:

"I only survived by hiding. After it punched a hole in the church wall, The town guard tried to stop it.But after it killed six of them with some strange flash from it's eyes, the rest of them ran. My brother tried to make a run for it on his horse but it made a leap clear across the field faster than anything I've ever seen. When the monster struck them, he and his horse were blown all the way into the trees... I really hope he made out, I didn't have time to check on him."

[ruy343]

Alternately, make there be a story point related to defeating the monster/puzzle. For example, in one dungeon in Golden Sun 2, there's a powerful dragon that you have no way to defeat, but there's are a few mirrors that, if aligned to shine properly into the dungeon, will reduce its power and take it out. These are pointed out to you by an NPC who knows of a legend that allowed heroes to beat the dragon before. Of course, you could try to charge in right when you get there, but you'll definitely lose.

An NPC, a cryptic scroll, writing in blood on the walls, a sentient magic item, etc. can all provide the hints they need to realize that they need to so something else first prior to tackling the big bad.

Alternately, another trick that Golden Sun employed was for the player to encounter the final boss 5 minutes into the game, just after learning the combat system and gaining your first level-up. You get thoroughly trashed, and the villain, in his arrogance (and lack of time; others were coming and they didn't want to be seen by too many people), leaves you unconscious on the ground. Then, for the rest of the game, you'll run into them over and over, and know that you're not ready to fight them, making the level design where you're sneaking around make a whole lot more sense.

Hope those exmaples help.

[kaoskonfety]

In general:

- variations on: They knock down Worf with in blow the biggest badest NPC crumples like tissue paper
- Display some ability they cannot hope to cope with (incorporeal but can affect the physical world, mind controls all who see them, literally cannot die, bleeds lava when wounded)
- the group is ordered not to try taking him on


In specific-ish for D&D/fantasy:
- Casual use of high level magic, either as a spell caster or Via items (hallucinatory terrain, Force Cage, simulacrum (a near burned out one that has just overcome say.. an ancient dragon, still nearly wrecking the party with cantrips and the bottom 10% of its HP), teleport and so on
- possession of named "oh god why" artefacts/gear (Vorpal swords make most PC's think twice, stack it with flight and some DR armor and you will see fewer and fewer charging in (but never "none")
- play up the "HP as dodging" angle - he's got a ton and you describe none of their blows landing or being deftly defected
- make sure "run away" is presented as a viable option either by an NPC, a clear environmental escape or villain hubris

[Sigreid]

There's lots of ways. In a recent adventure it was as simple as having the wizard make an arcane check to sense magic far beyond his understanding as the approached the castle. He told the others and they all hopped on the nope train to maybe later ville.

[Mr.Moron]

There's lots of ways. In a recent adventure it was as simple as having the wizard make an arcane check to sense magic far beyond his understanding as the approached the castle. He told the others and they all hopped on the nope train to maybe later ville.

Sorcerers can be fun with this too. Ask for a Charisma save when approaching some strong source of magic, along with some description of how powerful something "Feels" nearby. A failed save gets a description of a painful throbbing feeling all over their body that seems to be pushing them away from the source. A successful save gets a description of feeling an immense magical pressure, but that they're just able to barely push through.

No real mechanical effects attached to any of this, just flavor text.

[gfishfunk]

The real trick is not make sure that the party doesn't think you are psyching them for a really cool and tough battle, but are actually warning them that this is one you cannot win.

[Sigreid]

They'll learn the difference after a few tpk. /humor

[DireSickFish]

The real trick is not make sure that the party doesn't think you are psyching them for a really cool and tough battle, but are actually warning them that this is one you cannot win.

Yeah I plan on avoiding this by out and out telling them they are outmatched if it comes to it.

The specific situation I'll be dealing with is a Salamander vs Azer incursion being quarantined in the undercity of a dwarven/Human settlement. There is a McGuffin that might be in the quarantined area and they may get the opportunity to try and find it. The Salamanders are part of an Efreets personal army to get the Azer and the Azer are just escaping after having stolen/liberating something.

The Azers wouldn't be much of a problem in small groups, and they could take a single Salamander by itself. I plan on having numbers much larger than that if they wanted to "solve" the quest by killing either of the leaders.

[Zman]

There are lots of options here. One of the easiest for Monsters is have them make some kind of Knowledge Check, they can very well learn enough to know that it will kill them, etc.

But, as DM your best tool is your descriptive ability. If your low level party barely survived an encounter with 6 Orcs, and they find the Orc settlement and there is a nasty looking Orc surrouned by a half dozen Orcs and as they are approching you are generating a d4 more Orcs per turn, or you have four Orc ambush them while they are still 200 yards away, it can give a clear signal to make a fighting retreat.

I also tell my players right out of the gate, they may encounter something that will send them with their tail be tween their legs. One I've used in the past as a random encounter was a Rock for a lowish level party. With a simple knowledge check at least one party member will have heard something and the sheer size should terrify them. Then the encounter is merely finding enough cover and hope not to be noticed, haha.