PF - 4-arms vs 2 arms

[Tars Tarkas]

On another board I was working on a kasatha unchained monk. But I was told that forgoing flurry in place of the four attacks at lvl 1 was inferior to a human monk with a two handed power attacking focus flurry.

Why is this? Yes I know the kasatha would get -2,-2,-2,-2 on their attacks. But with full BAB that reduces it to -1 and rounds off if they have a +1 str bonus. Now yes lower attack makes the penalty -3 for all attacks but with BAB this is only -2 which is not all that bad is it?

[Sayt]

Well, a human uMonk with, say, a Sansetsukon and power attack will attack at +0/+0 for 1d10+(Str*1.5)+3 for a total of 2d10+(Str*3)+6, leys say syrength 3, for I think about 25 Ish damage on average.

A Kasatha multitweapon fighting goes at -1/-1/-1/-1, for an assumed total of something along the lines of 4d6+Str*2.5 for an average of 19 damage, assuming everything hits. (Assuming strength mod of three for both, but this is generous, imo)

Now, there are a few more factors to account for: pathfinder doesn't actually have improved or greater multitweapon fighting, so you only get two sets of iteratives at most. Alsop, the monk can focus solely on strength, where the mwfer needs to invest in dex and strength.

Conversely, the uMonk gets more attacks at full bab, and can grab Ascetic and Dragon styles, with the dual style feat to get quite impressive damage on a multitude of attacks.


On a more constructive bent, slayers make decent two weapon fighters, with full Bab, two sources of extra damage, and requirement ignoring on ranger combat feats.

[Tars Tarkas]

Ok so you are saying the human would be swinging a 1d10+3(str)+4.5(power attack)x2
Assuming a 5 the is 12.5. For 25 if both hit.

A kasatha would be hitting for 1d6+3(str)+2(power attack)x4
Assuming average of 3 on all rolls equals 8 dmg a hit. For a total of 32 if all four hit.


Right?

[Sayt]

Not quite: I'm assuming they each only have one feat: power attack on the human, mwf on the Kasatha. So the Kasatha doesn't get power attack, and doesn't have double slice, so the offhand attacks only get half strength. ( I think when I did the math I actually accounted for 14 str on the kasatha, due to needing higher dex, Mea culpa.)

Also, the full math with human was 5.5(weapon)+4(Str rounded down)+3(Power attack), twice.


Now, if your GM is willing to include 3rd party and 3.5 material, MWFing gets much better, with easy Dex to damage, letting you ignore strength entirely, and getting you improved and greater MWF.

[Tars Tarkas]

I am used to playing with flaws so I guess I just added it on.

Monks never treat an unarmed strike as offhand.

You said you gave them both the same str so I used +3 sorry if I misread.

[Sayt]

Yeah, Pathfinder doesn't have Flaws for Feats.

And you're right, I did forget that Monk UAS are never offhand, I assumde that went out the window with NewFlurry.

And yeah, I screwed up on the strength thing, but the fact remaisnt hat a human uMonk can basically not care about dexterity, as long as they're willing to take a few hits (I reccomend Barkskin as a Ki power), whereas the Multiweapon fighter has to split their stats up more.

But the main problem with Multi-two weapon fighting is that it's very feat intensive, although monk gets to skip a few.

....on the other hand, there's nothing in uFlurry that excludes Two-Weapon Fighting simultaneously. Huh.

[Tars Tarkas]

It does say it only grants 1 additional attack.

And I know about flaws. My table just still uses it.

I know its feat intensive but does that make it less than a normal human monk?

Because for example I have a 22 dex with race and belt at level 5. I have a weapon finesse and dreamscarred press's deadly agility which lets me use dex to hit and dmg. Gonna retrain them when I get my agile aomf. Though I have piranha strike and weapon focus too. And a high touch ac

[Sayt]

With that set up you honestly should be fine, though I'd consider keeping Finesse and Deadly agility: If someone targeted dispels your amulet to turn it off, you could be very sad temporarily, depends on how mean/canny your GM is.

[Tars Tarkas]

Very true. Might use the money on a different enhantment.

My ac is 10+6+5(wis is 20)+2(racial dodge)+1(class Dodge feat)=24+4(wand of mage armor)

So I have +8 to hit. 14 dmg with each punch. 1d8+6+4(piranha strike)

[Mithril Leaf]

Now, there are a few more factors to account for: pathfinder doesn't actually have improved or greater multitweapon fighting, so you only get two sets of iteratives at most. Alsop, the monk can focus solely on strength, where the mwfer needs to invest in dex and strength.

This isn't an absolute truth, as it is very much possible and reasonable (although not super balanced for Kasatha) that you can get the full set of iteratives when Multiweapon Fighting. Multiweapon Fighting states that:

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
And the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat states that:

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.

So it boils down to whether or not you assume replace is intended as a strong replacement in that if you have more than two arms then Multiweapon Fighting is identical in all ways but the few specified in the feat itself to Two-Weapon Fighting. If it is, you get an additional attack with each of your off-hands. If you don't subscribe to that interpretation, then you do only get the first set of additional attacks.

[Psyren]

Stick with flurry, TWF/MWF is a wasted feat on a monk (chained or not). You can put that feat towards finesse or PA instead, depending on whether you're going Dex or Str focus. MWF gets you more attacks early on but that advantage is diminished right off the bat by the penalty, gets diminished further once the ki pool comes into play, and then diminishes further still when flurry gets upgraded, and on top of which flurry doesn't cost you any feats at all.

Instead I'd use the Kasatha's arms to wield a 2H weapon while having hands available to deflect arrows, or wield a dan bong while grappling etc.

[Tars Tarkas]

Well saying that mwf is a wasted feat is just not really true. Sure you are investing more heavily toward it but you are given more attacks as a pay off. A kasatha with full mwf itwf and gtwf would have a boat load of attacks. Not just from full BAB which maxs at 4 you get an additional 9 from off hands so what 13 attacks. Yes some are made at -5 or -10 penalty but if you are buffing ur attack you would land a great deal of those hits. If you landed 7/13 you have matched the human unchained monk in hits.

[Psyren]

Well saying that mwf is a wasted feat is just not really true. Sure you are investing more heavily toward it but you are given more attacks as a pay off. A kasatha with full mwf itwf and gtwf would have a boat load of attacks. Not just from full BAB which maxs at 4 you get an additional 9 from off hands so what 13 attacks. Yes some are made at -5 or -10 penalty but if you are buffing ur attack you would land a great deal of those hits. If you landed 7/13 you have matched the human unchained monk in hits.

Let's be generous and assume your GM agrees, and gives you one extra attack per offhand rather than one extra offhand attack per feat. (IMWF and GMWF don't actually exist, so it's up to them to brew those feats for you and rule in your favor.) I still don't consider that to be an improvement. Yes, MWF/IMWF/GMWF means more attacks, but against a CR-appropriate foe it still doesn't look good for the monk to do this.

Favorable GMWF Full Attack:

Main Hand: 18/13/8/3
Off Hands: 18/13/13/13/8/8/8

Total 12 attacks - Haste adds one more for 13. 2/12 of those (3/13 with Haste) are +15 or higher.

Unchained Monk Flurry:

20/20/20/20/15/10/5

5/7 are +15 or higher. Haste adds one more 20 to the above for 6/8.

So if you're comparing attacks that are likely to hit a CR-appropriate foe (-5 penalty or less), I'd say the uMonk wins.

But wait, there's more - flurry also adds Style Strikes. With Elbow Smash, the routine actually becomes 20/20/20/20/15/15/15/10/5, with two of the 15s being nonlethal, and now we have 8/10 attacks being +15 or higher (granted, two of them deal nonlethal damage.) Against nonlethal-immune or fast-healing foes, we can instead use Spin Kick, converting that 10 and 5 to target flat-footed AC and be much more likely to land - against high-Dex enemies, this practically converts them to 15s or 20s too. Or we can turn two of those 20s into Shattering Punches and bypass all the target's hardness/DR, or we can trigger a Defensive Spin for free AC etc.

And wait again, there's still more - this is unchained flurry, which gets 1.5x Str to damage on all hits, instead of 1x for main and 0.5x for offhand. So between the higher bonuses and the better damage, in terms of DPR - which is what we actually care about (not merely # of attacks) - the uMonk is likely ahead.

And lets not forget - you sank three feats into doing this that could have been spent elsewhere, plus you're locking yourself into a Dex build since 19 Dex is too costly otherwise on a MAD class, which costs you even more feats making Dex viable (e.g. Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike.) You also need feats to pounce, e.g. Pummeling Charge or Dimensional Assault, while the uMonk can just use Flying Kick and pounce at least 3 levels earlier than you.

So no, even on a Kasatha Monk with a favorable GM, I'd still go with flurry over MWF.