Magus with Ray of Frost/Liquid Ice as Focus?

[Edgar Snow]

Thanks for stopping by. I just want to make sure I understand this low level combo:

Cantrips can be used with Spell Combat. Touch spells can be delivered by a weapon with Spellstrike. The two abilities can be combined. The Close Range Arcana can make Ray-type spells into Touch spells. Thus I get an infinite use, non-Arcane Mark, TWF style combat combo with Ray of Frost.

Now, my real issue. I will human and will be using a sword. I want to use Liquid Ice as a Focus for +1 damage (under the rules for Alchemical Power Components). I've double checked the rules for components and (F) is just like (M) but isn't destroyed. That's simple, but Liquid Ice is also a thrown weapon. The magus needs one free hand to use Spell Combat.

Does Liquid Ice's (or similar items) status as a weapon override it as a component?

[Cranthis]

Generally a focus goes in your hand, but I can't recall any rolls that require that. If you are too worried about it, go Vanara or Tiefling for a prehensile tail.

[Edgar Snow]

Thanks for reply. The character is a human, and that cannot be changed to anything other than (possibly) half orc or half elf. This comes from the DM as a campaign rule.
Edit: Not that it matters in this case as Tielfing doesn't work. The prehensile tail trait says "While they cannot weild weapons...". I'll edit OP to account for race.

[Cranthis]

I did a little more research, and I believe that as long as you have paid for the liquid ice then it functions as a regular focus. Which means you keep it in your spell pouch, and you pull it out as part of casting the spell.

[Edgar Snow]

I just made an edit about Tiefling tails, but these weapon/focus things are confusing. I think there must be a rule hidden in the Alchemical Power Components section I haven't found.

I have plans for an different character too, an archer, so the free hand versus holding a weapon issue is going to pop up again soon.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You could potentially get some liquid ice enclosed in the hilt of your sword somehow.

[Edgar Snow]

I've found some neat weapon additions, like the wrist strap and putting a saw edge on it, but other than the spell to put a wand in a weapon, I couldn't find a hallow sword hilt that can fit a vial of this cold stuff.

I'm a 3.5 guy. I miss my druid bear on bear with bears, wand chambered everything, and 'Defending' boot and elbow blades...

[Kurald Galain]

As far as I know, alchemical power components and foci don't need to be held in your hand, just like your spell component pouch doesn't either. That said, I have been unable to find a rules citation for this either way.

[Cranthis]

As far as I know, alchemical power components and foci don't need to be held in your hand, just like your spell component pouch doesn't either. That said, I have been unable to find a rules citation for this either way.

I was having the same problem. But the rules for spell foci say that you need one free hand to do somatic components and manipulate components and focus. Thus, I believe it is just flows as normal with casting a spell.

[Edgar Snow]

I hate going with the 'no rule against means it works' routine, but I read it that way too.

I've always been a fan of my True Strike focus as a bullseye-styled button. I think thats intention for the APCs.

Edit: the following is based on what is available online, and NOT taken from the books.

I think I need to check into one of the rules threads. I'm having a difficult time finding any rule that clearly states you need to have components anywhere other than on your persons. In fact, the best thing I have found in under the Pinned condition, which says you can't use spells with a material component. In 3.5, there was a check to draw material components while grappled, but in PF there is a concentration check to cast ANY spell while grappled.

Down the rabbit hole...

[Cranthis]

Pathfinder leaves it very vague. All it says is that you need a free hand to cast, which includes somatic components and manipulating components/foci. So spell combat works fine. Just pay for the ice and keep it on you.

[Forrestfire]

If you plan on using alchemical components, you should pick up the False Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/false-focus) feat and a tattoo holy symbol (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Holy-Symbol), the two of which together let you bypass needing the alchemical power components altogether, while keeping a hand free.

[Aldrakan]

Far as I can tell you can cast a spell with one hand. Whether it has a material component or focus or not is irrelevant unless you're grappled or otherwise restrained, you retrieve the components as part of casting the spell.
Why yes, this does make absolutely no sense. (So I'm just going to reach into a pouch at my belt and retrieve a bull hair, which I will not mix up with the cat fur, bird feathers, or the dozen other tiny things I have stuffed into this pouch, and I will do this within 6 seconds while also chanting magic words and making magical gestures and walking over to the person I want to enchant and reaching out to touch them) Chalk it up to another way material components are often kind of stupid.

Mind you you're already playing a magus, where one of your iconic mechanics is how casting a spell while trying to fight at the same time gives you an extra attack. I have yet to come up with a satisfying in-universe reason for why that should happen.

[avr]

Since you're not using it or wielding it as a weapon, I don't believe it takes up your hand any more than any other material component. I've seen a reference to using the same hand to make somatic components and to manipulate material components so you should be in the clear.

[Kurald Galain]

Chalk it up to another way material components are often kind of stupid.

Yes. Actually, in over a decade of playing, I've never met even a single GM who used the material component rules.

That said, alchemical components are somewhat less stupid, but you're also unlikely to have more than two of those. So taking a pinch of sulphur from your pouch and tossing it in the air is plausible as a part of spellcasting. I suppose you'd wear a focus around your neck and touch it while casting, just like a holy symbol (again, a caster is unlikely to have more than one alchemical focus anyway).

[stack]

Yes. Actually, in over a decade of playing, I've never met even a single GM who used the material component rules.

That said, alchemical components are somewhat less stupid, but you're also unlikely to have more than two of those. So taking a pinch of sulphur from your pouch and tossing it in the air is plausible as a part of spellcasting. I suppose you'd wear a focus around your neck and touch it while casting, just like a holy symbol (again, a caster is unlikely to have more than one alchemical focus anyway).

Had a spell component pouch stolen once, so my magus just grabbed some cobwebs from the corner of the room and cast web anyway.

[Psyren]

Why yes, this does make absolutely no sense. (So I'm just going to reach into a pouch at my belt and retrieve a bull hair, which I will not mix up with the cat fur, bird feathers, or the dozen other tiny things I have stuffed into this pouch, and I will do this within 6 seconds while also chanting magic words and making magical gestures and walking over to the person I want to enchant and reaching out to touch them) Chalk it up to another way material components are often kind of stupid.

You only have to "manipulate" the material component - nothing requires you to take it all the way out of the pouch. Thus, sticking your hand in and wiggling it around (jostling the feather etc.) may be enough, and explains how it can be done reliably in combat.

This also explains grappling - if your hand is restrained, you can't stick it in the pouch, thus you can only cast those spells whose material component is already in your hand.

Also, don't forget that "elaborate" components can't be retrieved as a free action, though it's left up to the GM to determine what elaborate means.

[Barstro]

I hate going with the 'no rule against means it works' routine, but I read it that way too.

That's not what happening here. There is no specific rule that changes the general default and, as far as I can tell, the default is that a focus is treated as a spell component that does not get used up.

Also, this is adding only +1 damage. Just my opinion, but that's hardly enough to warrant things being difficult.

[Aldrakan]

You only have to "manipulate" the material component - nothing requires you to take it all the way out of the pouch. Thus, sticking your hand in and wiggling it around (jostling the feather etc.) may be enough, and explains how it can be done reliably in combat.

This also explains grappling - if your hand is restrained, you can't stick it in the pouch, thus you can only cast those spells whose material component is already in your hand.

Also, don't forget that "elaborate" components can't be retrieved as a free action, though it's left up to the GM to determine what elaborate means.

I had kind of assumed it required you to manipulate it in a specific way that probably isn't compatible with randomly bumping against them without even knowing which bit it is, and also that a spell with somatic components requires that you make a specific gesture rather flailing at random and a verbal component is set magic words rather just any words you happen to say while casting the spell, though I suppose yes none of that is explicitly stated.

Seems equally stupid, though I grant you it's in a different way.

I'm now picturing some kind of weird big circular gauntlet that contains a smelly undifferentiated goop composed of all common spell components puréed and watered down so the caster both can wiggle their fingers at random and be touching the material component at once. Probably a time saver.

[Forrestfire]

I always assumed that part of spell preparation was setting up components in an easy-to-retrieve fashion. So when you prepare a spell that requires an eye of newt and dead spider, you'd stick those in a little bundle with a different texture than the little bag of bat poop and sulfur, or something.

[Edgar Snow]

Also, this is adding only +1 damage. Just my opinion, but that's hardly enough to warrant things being difficult.

But it's the entirety of the APC rules that I think are difficult. For everyone.

It's more about components, weapons, and to see if I missed.anything in the rules for Alchemical Power Components. 1d3+1 damage RoF is at least better than Weapon Spec. Grease that does acid damage every round is neat. A flat +13 (or more) damage to everything in a 30 ft cone is nice.

But if 'manipulate' means 'place in hand', the magus is.no longer able to cast spells; the THFers can't attack or threaten, the TWF/S&B have to drop a weapon, the archers are unable to retrieve arrows, etc. All because they count as weapons.

And that's lame. But that also makes sense. It denies some of their use by gish types. At least that's how I see it, and I WANT it to work for me.

[Psyren]

I had kind of assumed it required you to manipulate it in a specific way that probably isn't compatible with randomly bumping against them without even knowing which bit it is, and also that a spell with somatic components requires that you make a specific gesture rather flailing at random and a verbal component is set magic words rather just any words you happen to say while casting the spell, though I suppose yes none of that is explicitly stated.

Seems equally stupid, though I grant you it's in a different way.

I'm now picturing some kind of weird big circular gauntlet that contains a smelly undifferentiated goop composed of all common spell components puréed and watered down so the caster both can wiggle their fingers at random and be touching the material component at once. Probably a time saver.

*Points at sig*

Assuming one way something works that doesn't make sense, and then complaining that the one way you assumed it works doesn't make sense, is meaningless and counterproductive. There's a number of possible explanations for why RAW does work that you can choose from instead. For example:

1) Manipulation doesn't have to be precise (Jostle Theory) - as discussed previously, nothing in the text says you need surgical exaction with your components, so merely shifting the position of a given component inside the pouch could be sufficient "manipulation" for spellcasting.
2) Grabbing a clump of components (Cluster Theory) - nothing in the text says the component you need has to be the only one in your hand. If the spell calls for a spiderweb, and you grab that along with the powdered peas and the snake tongue and the squid tentacle and the bat guano etc., you've still manipulated the spiderweb, and the spell energies (which know what they're looking for) will only consume that.
3) Spell preparation involves meticulously organizing components (Compartment Theory) - As ForrestFire suggested, whatever activities your spellcaster takes during spell prep or spell readying also involve knowing exactly where to find the components he needs to grab, complete with linings/pockets within the pouch that are distinguishable by touch and radial position. This makes finding what you need sufficiently fast to fit with RAW. When the whole activity is abstracted, you can get away with things like this.

You can even combine two or all of these. Maybe wizards have to do (3), but sorcerers can get away with (2). Or maybe it's (1), but keeping your components clumped a la (2) makes that even easier to pull off.

Of course, you can always just Eschew and render the whole thing moot (at least mostly).

[Aldrakan]

I always assumed that part of spell preparation was setting up components in an easy-to-retrieve fashion. So when you prepare a spell that requires an eye of newt and dead spider, you'd stick those in a little bundle with a different texture than the little bag of bat poop and sulfur, or something.

Oh that makes sense. Could be a little tricky at high levels, but by that point your mystical demigod should have a lot of practice. And spontaneous casters that even use material components have less spells they need to pull out.