5e/Pathfinder hybrid?

[Meko]

I am starting a noon hour game of Pathfinder for some of my Grade 5 students who have never played rpgs before. I find the Pathfinder character sheet way too complicated for them, but I like the 5E sheets. Way more streamlined. However, most of my rulebooks are Pathfinder, though I have glanced at the 5E character creation and like what I see. I guess I am wondering if I am going to run into difficulties if the kids create 5E characters, but encounter Pathfinder foes and items. I would rather not switch completely to 5E. If I try a hybrid game, am I in for trouble later?

Thanks.

[Rusvul]

...Yeah. That isn't going to work too well. If Pathfinder is too complicated, you should just play 5e. If 5e is too simple, you should just play Pathfinder. There doesn't seem like a graceful way to merge them. Especially with Bounded Accuracy and 5e creatures having more HP.

[Kryx]

You're better off playing one or the other.

If 5e then just convert PF monsters to it. That's what I do.

[The1exile]

I suspect you would run into balancing problems pretty quick, but more of the adjusting saves to the 5e types than to hit of pathfinder enemies up to about Cr 2 or so. However, it's seriously worth considering just running in 5e off the basic rules, which you can get for free at https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules or relying on the excellent PFSRD and playing normal pathfinder.

[Knaight]

At the early levels, this could work. The power curves are very distinct though, and while things are probably pretty even at about level 3, by 6 the PCs are falling well behind, and by 10 they can't hit anything and everything is beating them down with no effort.

[ruy343]

At early levels, I don't expect you'll run into too many problems, as said before. As you DM the new system, you'll probably get the hang of it with time, and be able to switch to 5e monsters once you get comfortable.

The two games will DM about the same, with a few small exceptions.

The biggest change, in my opinion, from my observation of DMs of previous editions, is how hard various skill checks/challenges should be. An act that is difficult for a character should have a DC of about 15, even at higher levels, because you don't get anywhere near as many bonuses to your skill rolls as you did in previous editions (in 3.5 you could get as high as +30 to a particular check, whereas now, you can only get a max of +17 at level 20 [and that's only available to rogues and bards with expertise]). A check with a DC of 20 will often be failed, and a check with a DC of 25 will almost never be succeeded (unless it's in the rogue's specialty).

Enemies' armor classes are also lower than they have been in previous editions, and they often have more HP to compensate. The design team realized that it's always more fun to hit than to miss, so they made it easier to hit, but enemies tend to have more HP to compensa. Villains, of course, can have a high AC, just like players do, but keep this in mind: often, creatures' ACs should be a bit lower than in previous editions.

The rules for many of the combat tricks that were so essential in the last edition are gone, as are all the +2, -2, and other circumstance bonuses that always bogged down the game. A common argument is that flanking should grant advantage; it does not in the new system. Allow the players to try their combat ideas, but try to keep their various actions within the framework of possible combat actions given in the game, so that you don't accidentally allow a wizard to use an attack that the fighter gets through a battlemaster ability (such as tripping with an attack). The simplification doesn't linearize the game too much, and it allows each character specialty to shine in their own ways with time. It's for the better this way.

Finally, resting. In this edition, healing is much more available to the PCs, since they can regain hit points during a short rest if they choose to spend hit dice. Remember also that some classes recharge on short rests, whereas others recharge on long ones, so try to keep the pressure on them so they aren't always long-resting. Try to keep 2-3 short rests in a day, so that the Long-rest regenerators have to manage their resources, and the short-rest regenerators can shine appropriately.

[Knaight]

Enemies' armor classes are also lower than they have been in previous editions, and they often have more HP to compensate. The design team realized that it's always more fun to hit than to miss, so they made it easier to hit, but enemies tend to have more HP to compensa. Villains, of course, can have a high AC, just like players do, but keep this in mind: often, creatures' ACs should be a bit lower than in previous editions.

It's not just that, it's that the previous ACs are based on previous attack bonuses. A high level Pathfinder character might be sporting a BAB of 20, a +5 weapon, +15 from abilities, and quite possibly some other stuff. A +40 to attack isn't unreasonable. A high level 5e character might be able to scrape +15, and even that requires some serious magic items. They are completely off of the d20 die scale from each other. Skills are even worse. Save DCs have similar issues. Enemy saves have similar issues. The games are fundamentally scaled differently, and that difference just gets worse and worse as the levels go up.

[Zman]

Do everyone a favor and just play 5e, willfully choosing to run 3.P with a group of newbies is asking for headaches and a horribly long learning curve. Just the PHB will be enough for 5e to get going.

[Arc-Royal]

As much as I enjoyed Pathfinder, I'm also going to throw my hat into the ring for 5E. While Pathfinder may have more content available free of charge for the students to read for their own reference (d20pfsrd was a godsend when I ran a campaign for friends), there's such a glut of it that I'd be concerned about the students feeling overwhelmed or without direction, even for those who might have some level of RPG experience. While the content available for free for 5E (the basic rules as linked by The1exile) is more limited in amount, it provides them with what they need to understand how the game functions. Furthermore, because of the bounded accuracy design philosophy and stat caps, the gaps between varying optimization levels will feel less drastic for your students and they likely won't feel quite as overshadowed by others.

[Theodoxus]

Nothing wrong at all with using Pathfinder APs, scenarios, etc with 5th Ed characters. Swap out the monsters on a 1:1 basis, use the DMG guidelines for magic items and DCs for skill checks, traps, etc and you'll do fine.

Paizo has a pretty decent writing team - some better than others - so the modules play through regardless of the ruleset. If you're comfortable with the modules, no need to spend $$ on 5th Ed specifics. I've been using old AD&D modules just fine too.

Now, if you're looking to actually do a 5e/PF hybrid - taking 5' step, flanking, miniscule bonuses to proficiencies, hamfisting PF classes into the game, etc - well, that won't work. You'll break the game into Rocket Tag - highest initiative doesn't just go first, they win, take the board, ball and bullets and goes home. Don't do that :smallcool:

[Meko]

Thanks for your advice, everyone. These kids have never even seen an rpg before (other than on their xbox) so, that being said, I think I will go with a purely 5E game. I will do what I can to convert Pathfinder creatures, based on what I see in some of the online 5E stuff. I am not worried about scenarios or modules, as I make those up myself. I'm excited to start with these guys, as they are very eager. Actually had to split them into two groups as I had 13 kids show up for the preliminary meeting today!

Might be on here again at some point as we get more into it after Christmas.

[Kane0]

Never played before? Go 5e as is. Its magnitudes easier to teach and learn.
Taking modules and adventures from PF, 3rd ed even AD&D isn't hard as long as you have a little bit of time to do some converting.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thanks for your advice, everyone. These kids have never even seen an rpg before (other than on their xbox) so, that being said, I think I will go with a purely 5E game. I will do what I can to convert Pathfinder creatures, based on what I see in some of the online 5E stuff. I am not worried about scenarios or modules, as I make those up myself. I'm excited to start with these guys, as they are very eager. Actually had to split them into two groups as I had 13 kids show up for the preliminary meeting today!

Might be on here again at some point as we get more into it after Christmas.

If you still want to use Pathfinder monsters (and there's quite a few good well-done monsters to use), there are rules for creating monsters in the back of the 5e DMG, including a table for the expected hit points, AC, to-hit bonus, damage per round, etc. of monsters of each Challenge level. This info should make it much easier to swap in Pathfinder monsters on the fly. :smallsmile: