Detect Magic and Spellcraft

[Xervous]

20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

Take a spell with no visible effect such as glibness. If you were to detect someone with glibness currently active on them, does the aura you see with detect magic count as an effect of glibness?

[BowStreetRunner]

This is how it would work if someone was present who had Glibness cast on them.


You cast detect magic and choose a 60 ft cone-shaped area to study.
Assuming the person in question is in the area, after one round you would you would become aware that magical auras were present.
After a second round studying the area you would be able to determine the total number of auras in the area, including from Glibness. If Glibness was the highest level effect then they would know that there was a Faint aura. If there was another aura present that was stronger they would get that result instead.
After a third round you would get the strength and location of each aura, indicating that a faint aura was present on the subject. At this point if the subject remains in line of sight you can make a Spellcraft check (DC 18) to determine the school of magic (transmutation).
Note that magical areas, multiple types of magic, and strong local magical emanations may distort this weak aura.
Note also that once the Glibness effect wears off a Dim aura will remain on the subject for 1d6 rounds.

[Xervous]

While that's certainly polite and correct it doesn't address my question. Does the aura count as an effect of Glibness or not, and is there any relevant rules text to directly support this opposed to lack of text confirming?

[Zanos]

I would say that yes, detect magic/arcane sight would allow you to make a spellcraft check to determine what an in place spell is.

[Duke of Urrel]

Take a spell with no visible effect such as glibness. If you were to detect someone with glibness currently active on them, does the aura you see with detect magic count as an effect of glibness?

I would say yes. The aura that you see when you use the Detect Magic spell to detect the aura that surrounds the subject of the Glibness spell counts as an effect of this spell and entitles you to a Spellcraft check at DC 23.

The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) require only this: "You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell." I believe seeing a magic aura with the help of the Detect Magic spell (or the Arcane Sight spell) counts as detecting a spell effect. However, I would require you to take enough time to see the magic aura of a spell like Glibness, which has no other visible effect. Merely becoming aware of the presence of magic or becoming able to count the number of magic auras in an area would not entitle you to a Spellcraft check, in my opinion.

EDIT: I concur with Zanos, who swordsaged me.

[Âmesang]

My first thought is "no, all you'd do is detect the school of magic the spell belongs to,", however the Magic Item Compendium allows one to identify the properties of a magic item (including charges and command words) by beating the Spellcraft check to detect the item's aura by 10 or more.

So if one could use detect magic to identify an item's properties thanks to a high check, but not identify an ordinary spell… well, I guess that'd just be silly! :smalltongue:

[BowStreetRunner]

I see your confusion here. Read the description of Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm). It specifically states that after the third round of study "you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)" This matches the rule under Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) where it states "15 + spell level When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required."

The DC check you are referencing is DC20+SL without the use of detect magic. This assumes you are looking at a visible effect. The aura is not normally a visible effect. It is there but you can't see it. Casting detect magic lets you detect the aura, in which case you use the DC15+SL check.

EDIT: to be clear, there is no rule that specifically states you cannot see auras, since the dictionary definition of an aura is an invisible emanation, so this is assumed. The only rules references that discuss being able to determine information from an aura all revolve around the use of detection spells or abilities. So since by definition an aura is something invisible, the assumption is that you cannot see it without special means.

[Deophaun]

The DC check you are referencing is DC20+SL without the use of detect magic. This assumes you are looking at a visible effect.
If it assumed that you were looking at a visible effect, the description for Spellcraft would not say "see or detect."

Yes, detect magic does allow you to make a DC 15+SL check to determine a school of magic, but Spellcraft also allows you to bump the DC up by 5 to identify the precise spell, and nothing in the description of detect magic or Spellcraft precludes you from doing what you are normally allowed.

[ericgrau]

It says "detect the effects of the spell" not "detect the spell" or "detect the spell's magic/aura". So the question is, "is the spell's aura an effect of the spell?"

[Deophaun]

It says "detect the effects of the spell" not "detect the spell" or "detect the spell's magic/aura". So the question is, "is the spell's aura an effect of the spell?"
Assuming the PHB is written in English, yes. As the rules are very loose in how they throw the term "effect" around in relation to spells (for example, talking about the "effect" of a fireball in Invisible Spell), it's safe to say "effect" is not a rules term and standard English definitions apply.

[ericgrau]

Is the aura an effect of the spell or is it the spell itself?

It's like the bullet coming out of a gun being an effect of the gun vs its ability to reflect on a metal detector being an effect of the gun. The 2nd is quite a bit looser.

[Duke of Urrel]

It says "detect the effects of the spell" not "detect the spell" or "detect the spell's magic/aura". So the question is, "is the spell's aura an effect of the spell?"


Assuming the PHB is written in English, yes. As the rules are very loose in how they throw the term "effect" around in relation to spells (for example, talking about the "effect" of a fireball in Invisible Spell), it's safe to say "effect" is not a rules term and standard English definitions apply.


Is the aura an effect of the spell or is it the spell itself?

It's like the bullet coming out of a gun being an effect of the gun vs its ability to reflect on a metal detector being an effect of the gun. The 2nd is quite a bit looser.

I can respect both views here, and I think the conflict between them is the heart of Xervous's original question.

I think my view mediates between these two views a little. Like Deophaun, I think when you use the Detect Magic spell to detect a magic aura, you effectively create a spell effect that would not be there otherwise, namely a magic aura, which, whether you can actually see it or not,* marks the subject or the location of an active spell. However, unless you first distinguish a magic aura from all other auras (which takes one round of concentration) and pinpoint its location (which takes another round of concentration), I believe you haven't yet detected enough to identify a spell by name.

Indeed, I believe this Spellcraft check is the very same check as the one that you make to determine the school of magic that an aura represents. The rules don't allow you to make this check until you can both distinguish a magic aura from all others and pinpoint its location. I also believe – and this is where the rules end and my interpretation begins – that if you can't determine the school of magic that an aura represents, you don't yet have enough information to name the spell that it represents, either.

So when I'm the dungeon master and you become aware of a spell solely by (1) casting the Detect Magic spell, (2) concentrating for two rounds thereafter, and (3) pinpointing the location of a magic aura, I grant you only one Spellcraft check with respect to this aura. If you make the DC of 15 plus the spell's level, you know only the school of magic that the magic aura represents. If you make the DC of 20 plus the spell's level, you also know the name of the spell. I don't give you a chance to name the spell if you can't even name the school of magic to which it belongs.

I'm more generous if you can both see a spell's effect and detect a magic aura, as you can when you use the Detect Magic spell to scan a Wall of Thorns, for example. In this case, I let you make two Spellcraft checks, and the results are independent of each other, though making the harder check makes failing the easier check inconsequential. Of course, you could just as easily identify a Wall of Thorns by looking at it and making a Spellcraft check at DC 25, without using the Detect Magic spell at all.

____________________
*I happen to favor the notion that the Detect Magic spell empowers you actually to see magic auras in an area after you scan it and concentrate for two rounds, because I like the flavor of this. But I don't allow this fluff to change the actual rules, and it makes no difference in this discussion.

[Jowgen]

Adding to the body of questions:

are there any examples of "magical areas, multiple types of magic, and strong local magical emanations" actually interfering with something of this sort (or with teleportation even), rather than it just being a for-DM-convenience rule?

Like, would for example the presence of an artifact suffice, or something?

[DrMotives]

I thought artifacts don't have magical auras and detect as non-magical. Or is that only in older editions?

[Duke of Urrel]

I thought artifacts don't have magical auras and detect as non-magical. Or is that only in older editions?

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm), the Detect Magic spell does detect a magic aura around an artifact. Indeed, if the artifact's caster level is higher than 20, the strength of its magic aura is "Overwhelming."

It's also true, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm), that the magic auras of minor artifacts have identifiable schools of magic. However, the magic auras of major artifacts don't seem to have any identifiable school of magic, as far as I can tell.

[Duke of Urrel]

Adding to the body of questions:

are there any examples of "magical areas, multiple types of magic, and strong local magical emanations" actually interfering with something of this sort (or with teleportation even), rather than it just being a for-DM-convenience rule?

Like, would for example the presence of an artifact suffice, or something?

There's definitely a problem when you try to identify the school of magic of a magic aura surrounding a magic item whose functions belong to several different schools of magic. Look at the Staff of the Woodlands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#woodlands), for example. This staff's magic aura is "moderate varied," because it stores spells belonging to several different schools of magic. So when you use the Detect Magic spell to inspect a Staff of the Woodlands, I believe its school of magic is indeterminate. You have to use the Analyze Dweomer spell to discover how many different spells it stores.

I don't believe there's any problem when magic auras merely overlap, but do not cover exactly the same creature, object, or area.

For example, suppose you wear magic +1 chainmail armor and carry a magic +2 sword at your belt. In a belt pouch, you carry a vial of Bull Strength potion, and on the ring finger of your left hand, you wear a Ring of Invisibility. Every one of these magic items is surrounded by a magic aura, but no magic aura shares the same center, carrier, or container. Therefore, no magic aura merges with any other. With the help of the Detect Magic spell and Spellcraft skill, a spellcaster can see (assuming, as I do, that the Detect Magic spell confers the ability to see magic auras) a Faint magic aura representing Abjuration surrounding your armor, a Moderate magic aura representing Evocation surrounding your sword, a Faint magic aura representing Transmutation surrounding your belt pouch (because magic auras can easily penetrate leather), and a Faint magic aura representing Illusion surrounding your left ring finger. In places where these magic auras overlap, I believe they form neat planar boundaries, as bubbles will do when they are pressed together.

Even if you drink the Bull’s Strength potion, no magic aura merges with any other. As the potion bestows its magic upon your body, a Faint magic aura representing Transmutation surrounds it. However, this magic aura does not merge with the magic aura that surrounds your chainmail, your sword, or your magic ring, because your potion bestows its effect only upon your body, not upon your chainmail, your sword, or your ring. Therefore, I believe the magic aura that your chainmail carries blocks most of the magic aura that your body carries. This magic aura is visible only over the part of your face that your chainmail does not cover.

The situation is different when two magic spells share exactly the same carrier, center, or container. This is what happens with the aforementioned Staff of the Woodlands, which is a storage container with several different spells inside. However, this also happens when two or more active spells act upon the same creature, object, or point in space. I consider the magic aura that represents two or more spells that have the same carrier or center to be a merged magic aura. I have my own house rules for this problem.

1. If two or more active spells or magical functions of unequal strength are commingled, the magic auras representing them merge into a single magic aura whose power (Dim, Faint, Moderate, Strong, or Overwhelming) represents the strongest commingled magic present.

2. If two commingled spells have the same strength, I believe their merged magic aura represents the more recently cast spell.

Consider the example I discussed above. You are wearing magic +1 chainmail armor and a Ring of Invisibility, you are carrying a magic +2 sword at your belt, and you have just drunk a vial of Bull’s Strength potion. For as long as you do not activate your Ring of Invisibility, not one magic aura carried by either you or your gear merges with any other. However, when you activate your Ring of Invisibility, you bestow magic not only upon your entire body, but also upon your gear, that is, upon everything that you either wear or carry. Therefore, the magic aura that represents the Invisibility effect must merge with every other magic aura that surrounds you or any item in your gear.

Around your magic sword, the magic aura representing the Invisibility effect merges with the magic aura representing the sword’s caster level. However, the magic aura of the Invisibility effect (whose caster level is three) is Faint, whereas the magic aura of the magic sword (whose caster level is six) is Moderate. Therefore, following my rules, the merged magic aura surrounding your magic sword remains Moderate and continues to represent the Evocation school.

Around your body, the magic aura representing the Invisibility effect merges with the magic aura representing the effect of the Bull’s Strength potion. Around your magic armor, the magic aura representing the Invisibility effect merges with the magic aura representing the armor’s caster level. Since all three of these magical effects manifest themselves as Faint magic auras, they are detectable as a single merged magic aura whose strength is Faint. However, since the Invisibility effect was the most recently activated, the merged magic aura represents only the school of Illusion, following my rule, until the Ring of Invisibility is deactivated.

I make a special rule when one spell is deactivated by another spell. After you cast the Dispel Magic spell, both this spell and the spell that it deactivates leave behind lingering magic auras whose strength is Dim. My rule is that the lingering aura in this case always represents the magic that did the deactivating, in this case the Dispel Magic spell, whose school is Abjuration.