Harpoons and Stall Speed

[Tarvus]

So I asked this on the Simple RAW thread, but the reasoning the answer used didn't seem to hold up. Since that thread is for Q&A not discussion, reposting it here.

The question was: Will any flying creature with Average or worse maneuverability begin to stall automatically when hit with a harpoon?

For reference, there are several versions of the Harpoon - there's the Stormwrack/Frostburn one, the Arctic Harpoon in Races of Faerun, the Kuo-Toan harpoon in MMV, and I think one in the A&EG. There's some differences, but they are functionally identical for the question. The relevant line is:

If it deals damage, the harpoon lodges in an opponent who fails a Reflex [...] A harpooned creature moves at only half speed

The Kuo-toan Harpoon specifically states: "the target must succeed [...] or be harpooned" so that, coupled with the wording of the other versions, I think its safe to say that once the reflex save is failed, the creature is considered harpooned and thus subject to slowed movement.

The answer I got was:

A 75 Technically, RAW, a flying creature that is impaled by a harpoon (wherein the rope is controlled by the thrower) moves at half speed; but its minimum speed to keep flying is based on its current speed, not its normal speed. That means a creature with 30 ft/rd speed impaled on a harpoon has 15 ft/rd speed, and in order to stay in the air it now only needs to fly 7.5 ft/rd.

RAW, though, a creature can't actually take the full round action to break the hold without dropping from lack of movement (unless the creature has some way to move while taking a full-round action) and would only be able to fly in circles in a 30 ft radius in the meantime.

All of this only happens if the creature in question fails both the reflex save and the immediate strength check. If the creature wins the strength check to control the rope, the harpoon is just lodged in them to no effect (other than damage obviously).

While I appreciate time taken to answer, I have several problems with it.

The creature is harpooned even if they pass the strength check and control the rope. The slowed speed is due to being harpooned not the rope being controlled. The only benefit of controlling the rope is enforcing or ignoring the 30ft distance restriction.
I also disagree about the movement speed division. Firstly, RAI, it makes little sense that a non-magical change in movement speed would also change the stall speed, all other things like weight and shape being equal. Secondly, RAW wise, the harpooned creature "moves at half speed", the harpoon does not half the movement speed of the creature.


So, I guess I ask again. Will any flying creature with Average or worse maneuverability begin to stall automatically when hit with a harpoon, assuming the reflex save is failed?

[ManicOppressive]

I'm by no means confident in the answer I gave in retrospect, but the rules on flying are really vague. As in there's next to nothing, and no clarification. And Harpoons RAW are weird and nonsensical.

Let me dig up my Stormwrack book and look at what it says about harpoons. I was rolling with the little blurb in Frostburn.

[Tarvus]

I appreciate the answer anyway.

Something that occurred to me, does a flying(Average) creature stall AT half speed or BELOW half speed?

If its the latter, its still useful. Just means they'd have to fly perfectly straight to avoid stalling.

[Segev]

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.I've added the bolding for emphasis; the rest of this covers contingencies that might prevent landing.

According to the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) in that same section, the "minimum forward speed" is how much distance they MUST travel to stay aloft.

Essentially, as long as they keep moving forward at half their flight speed (which they can do, just barely, while harpooned), they can avoid crashing and, if they choose, stay in the air. Normally, a creature with Average maneuverability could sacrifice 5 ft. of movement to turn in place up to 45 degrees (so from moving along a rank or file to moving on a diagonal, and from a diagonal to a file or rank). Because that would make a harpooned creature with Average maneuverability fall below his half-speed minimum forward movement, he would fall if he tried that. However, he can still move 5 ft. in the direction he's facing, then turn 45 degrees, then move another 5 ft., turn another 45 degrees, etc., and still move his full required (and maximum allowed) distance.

So harpooning a flying creature with Average maneuverability denies him the ability to turn in place while in the air.

[daremetoidareyo]

What you can do is have your heaviest dude in the party begin to climb the harpoon rope. The additional weight on the rope would be added to the flying creature's encumbrance, which will in turn, reduce their already halved fly speed. So long as they are an average maneuverability flyer, getting them to medium or heavily encumbered should make them crash into the ground. This, of course, assumes that the the minimum fly speed is build off of the unmodified flying movement rate, and that it isn't an ever decreasing fraction of 1/2 flight speed. So...if you have a spare heavy guy with a climb skill who is willing to waste a move action climbing a harpoon rope, you might be able to ground the flyer same round.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What you can do is have your heaviest dude in the party begin to climb the harpoon rope. The additional weight on the rope would be added to the flying creature's encumbrance, which will in turn, reduce their already halved fly speed. So long as they are an average maneuverability flyer, getting them to medium or heavily encumbered should make them crash into the ground. This, of course, assumes that the the minimum fly speed is build off of the unmodified flying movement rate, and that it isn't an ever decreasing fraction of 1/2 flight speed. So...if you have a spare heavy guy with a climb skill who is willing to waste a move action climbing a harpoon rope, you might be able to ground the flyer same round.
There is a spell which summons a 5' cube of wood, called blockade, in Complete Scoundrel. It weighs 2000 pounds, and it only takes a swift action to cast the spell.

1) Summon block of wood (on top of a net) with a swift.
2) Tie rope/net as a move.
3) Throw harpoon as a standard.
4) Hopefully increase the flier's encumbrance by 2000 pounds, and reduce their speed to half.

[Segev]

As long as they stay close enough to the ground that the encumbering weight is resting on it, and don't try to drag it, they won't be encumbered. But now you've anchored them, and they are flying in circles. Which is probably good enough.

[Tarvus]

So the example creature is slow and if it wants to change that it will stall. It has a pretty wide turning circle, and is limited to standard actions or it will stall which cuts off access to a lot of spells. And a lot of creatures have average or worse maneuverability as well - all the SRD dragons, wyverns, griffons, Hippogriffs, pegasi.

OK, now we're getting it locked down. I assume the slowed movement doesn't stack with something like a Tanglefoot Bag?


There is a spell which summons a 5' cube of wood, called blockade, in Complete Scoundrel. It weighs 2000 pounds, and it only takes a swift action to cast the spell.

1) Summon block of wood (on top of a net) with a swift.
2) Tie rope/net as a move.
3) Throw harpoon as a standard.
4) Hopefully increase the flier's encumbrance by 2000 pounds, and reduce their speed to half.
I'll admit that image made me laugh. The flier could just attempt the strength check to break the rope or chain, but you can get around that simply by sticking it with more harpoons. Plus DC 23 or 26 is better than the DC20 for using a sticky shield.

Blockade only lasts a few rounds though IIRC, so you'd need to be in place to keep it there once its grounded.



<Dragon Kite Surfing>

The Kuo-toan one has a nice ability to wrap the chain around a sticky shield as a swift action for +5 to the strength check. So you could argue to your (hopefully lenient) DM that given the shields strapped to you, you don't even the climb check. :smalltongue:

Also does anyone know if any launchers or other important variants exist besides the ones I listed in the OP already?

[daremetoidareyo]

segev makes a good point. A flyer doesn't have to strain against the leash.

Some random thoughts, however.

The text for harpoon states that the opponent needs to hands free. RAI, this means that they need to put away/ drop weapons. But RAW, this means that if you harpoon a creature without hands, they are stuck. I wouldn't rely on this, but a nice compromise is that animals or creatures with an intelligence of 1 or 2 without hands cannot remove the harpoon.

The flyer HAS to stay within 30' of you if you win the strength check. If, however, your end line is strapped to your horse, it is reasonable to assume that he has to beat your horse at the strength check. (I think that if it's a medium flyer, the large horse has a +4 to the opposed strength check). You can also whap your horse on the rear and have him remove the flyer from combat. If the horse goes full speed (60 per round), the flyer cannot keep up at half speed unless it has a speed of 120. They would therefor be drug along the ground. Depending on the handle animal skill of the harpooner, you might be able to train your horse to drag them into all sort of nasty terrain.


Conversely, If you're a flyer and you harpoon a landlubber, if you win on the strength check, you can lift them off the ground. You can also cut the rope ;) Be wary however, they may decide to climb the rope and stab you in the shin. They may also use a full round action to remove the harpoon to take a minimum of fall damage. Unless of course, that they don't have hands.


Henshin mystic is literally unmoveable, so maybe you can do something with that.

[Tarvus]

If, however, your end line is strapped to your horse, it is reasonable to assume that he has to beat your horse at the strength check. (I think that if it's a medium flyer, the large horse has a +4 to the opposed strength check).
Problem is it's still maxed at the break DC of the chain. Even if it's not explicitly stated that exceeding the break DC in competition will make it snap, there's nothing stopping them from attempting the Str check to break if its to their advantage.

Depending on the horse, player, and target this isn't always as big an advantage as you might think. E.g. A light horse only as Str 14. Still a good idea though, and the Size bonus is nice.



Conversely, If you're a flyer and you harpoon a landlubber, if you win on the strength check, you can lift them off the ground. You can also cut the rope ;) Be wary however, they may decide to climb the rope and stab you in the shin. They may also use a full round action to remove the harpoon to take a minimum of fall damage. Unless of course, that they don't have hands.

They'd need a movement speed of 120ft to make it up the rope in one round. So unless you're dealing with something thats pretty damn quick, you should have time to drop the rope before it gets to your shins (no need to cut it unless you've tied it off or sticky shield'd it). Have to try this out on a player next time I'm the DM.



Henshin mystic is literally unmoveable, so maybe you can do something with that.
OA is 3.0, and even still it doesn't help as the harpooner, only the harpoonee. A mystic can't be moved by magic or by force, but that doesn't give him infinite grip strength - the Str check to control the rope could be interpreted as just pulling it out of the Harpooners hands after all. And as for using it as the harpoonee, usually the harpooner is trying to keep you somewhere not move you. Might have a niche though.

[ManicOppressive]

Helpfully chiming in to say that I found my Stormwrack book, and its section is basically the same and equally unhelpful as the Frostburn one.

Again, I feel like the big problem here is the flight rules. I know how I would rule this as a DM (Strength check to try to hold the flier by the rope, above a certain combined strength start considering the idea of the rope snapping) but RAW I don't think I'm going to find a satisfactory answer.

[Tarvus]

Helpfully chiming in to say that I found my Stormwrack book, and its section is basically the same and equally unhelpful as the Frostburn one.

Again, I feel like the big problem here is the flight rules. I know how I would rule this as a DM (Strength check to try to hold the flier by the rope, above a certain combined strength start considering the idea of the rope snapping) but RAW I don't think I'm going to find a satisfactory answer.

As I noted in the OP, they're pretty much functionally identical. And SW and FB actually are, which I listed them together. If you're curious though there's slight variations at:

MMV pg.96 - Kuo-toan Harpoon has some added functionality and uses chain
Stormwrack p.107 - Harpoon, identical to Frostburn
Arm's and Equipment Guide p.8 - slightly different harpoon. Has -2 due to bulk and some minor changes
Races of Faerun p.156 - Arctic Harpoon, slightly different again, heal check explicitly takes a minute
Sword and Fist also apparently has one on pg.72 but I don't have access and its outdated anyway.

They're largely identical though, mostly the variation is in the damage taken to to pull it out (some reroll, some do the same damage they did going in), the time taken and DC for the heal check, and that penalty that was on the 3.0 harpoon.

And no-one knows if tanglefoot bags stack? Or if theres any RAW launchers available?

EDIT: Also, by the rules for touchstones in Sandstorm, I could give a bunch of low level mooks 250gp each to give them the War Domain and get an EWP for Harpoons. They could spam them while the party works on actually killing the ones they help bring down. Cheaper than a scroll of slow and it lasts forever. That ofc is assuming I could find a deity with a Harpoon as a favored weapon and I could choose their first feat.