Sap & Baton - Bludgeonning finesse weapons

[DanyBallon]

I'm about to start a new campaign as a rogue, and I'm looking to play a more burglary type rogue, who, when in need to fight, try to knock unconsious it's foe. Bludgeonning weapons come to mind (I know you can knock unconsious with any melee weapons). Unfortunately, for my rogue, finesse weapons are either slashing or piercing.

Would you allow an exotic weapon (means that require the weapon master feat to be proficient with it), that would do bludgeonning damage and be a finesse weapon?

i.e. Sap: 1d4 Bludgeonning, light, finesse, special (deals only "non-lethal" damage, and on a natural 20 automatically stun target)
Baton: 1d4 Bludgeonning, light, finesse

I'd like to have you opinion if you would allow, or not such weapons and why.

Thanks

[Hudsonian]

Would you allow an exotic weapon (means that require the weapon master feat to be proficient with it)

If you are willing to spend a feat to get the character concept to work. I would definitely allow it. That being said, are you the DM or the player? If you are the player, I would ask the DM because I might just allow you to homebrew a background that gave you brass knuckles or something. There is a pretty cool weapon in John Flanagan's "Ranger's Apprentice" series that is basically what you are looking for, but I can't remember what it was called. Basically it was the combo of a brass knuckle with the pommel of a dagger for knockouts.

[zylodrizzt]

I think there are rules in place that state that I can knock someone out instead of killing them when dropping them to 0 hp. You could take medicine to stabilize someone. Tell your dm that u r using the flat end or hilt to strike to not leave blood. This might require tavern brawler. Maybe your dm will allow u to use unarmed.

[DanyBallon]

If you are willing to spend a feat to get the character concept to work. I would definitely allow it. That being said, are you the DM or the player? If you are the player, I would ask the DM because I might just allow you to homebrew a background that gave you brass knuckles or something. There is a pretty cool weapon in John Flanagan's "Ranger's Apprentice" series that is basically what you are looking for, but I can't remember what it was called. Basically it was the combo of a brass knuckle with the pommel of a dagger for knockouts.

In this game I'll be a player, but I'll definitly talk with the DM. But since the DM is fairly new to 5e (she started playing in my other campaign a few months ago), I don't want to push something that may be too OP, hence why I'm asking for your opinion before hand :smallbiggrin:

[DanyBallon]

I think there are rules in place that state that I can knock someone out instead of killing them when dropping them to 0 hp. You could take medicine to stabilize someone. Tell your dm that u r using the flat end or hilt to strike to not leave blood. This might require tavern brawler. Maybe your dm will allow u to use unarmed.

As I stated, I know that there are rules for knocking someone out instead of killing him, I just d'on want my character to use slashing or piercing weapon, as it's out of the character concept.

[SharkForce]

i can't think of any particularly compelling reason to force you to pay a feat for it. you're not asking for anything particularly overpowered, and you could just do what you want with a rapier in the first place which is a better weapon anyways. so i'd just let you have those weapons. normally i'd be inclined to rule that a sap couldn't deal any damage to non-living creatures i suppose, but frankly if you can punch a zombie to death with your bare hands, you can beat them to death with a sap as far as i'm concerned.

[Seruvius]

Personally as a DM, I would let you just refluff another weapon and change the damage type if it roughly made sense. Damage type is not a big enough differentiator between weapon types as there are very very few enemies that have resistance/immunity/vulnerability to a specific damage type. Far more common is a trait related to all 3 damage types that are not magical/silvered/adamantine or something similar. As an example I would be quite fien with you refluffing the dagger into a sap by just changing the damage to bludgeon and maybe removing the thrown property. Or refluff the shortsword as a nunchuck, as they can be used quite accurately to strike weak spots. Talk with your DM about that.

Spending a feat just to change the damage type on a weapon is an extremely high price. If it was some sort of amazing weapon then yes maybe but compare it to 3.5 for a moment. General consensus is that with very few exceptions (spiked chain for exmaple) the cost of a feat is not worth it for almost all exotic weapons. in 3.5 you got feats as part of leveling up, in 5e you have to forgo ability score advancement, and they are tied to class level, not character level. Any weapon you get from a feat would have to be rather powerful, comparable to taking a bonus in DEX (for rogue, thats initative, armour, hit, damage, many key skills and good save!) or feats like crossbow expert or alert. That weapon is going to have to be almost unbalanced to be worth it.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

So firstly, regarding the baton, I'd up it to 1d6 so it's equivalent to a shortsword. Doing bludgeoning instead of piecing is no big deal. It might effect a handful of monsters slightly differently, but the 3 weapon damage types are fairly interchangeable.

The sap on the other hand, with the whole daze on crit thing, is unique, and therefore harder to compare to existing options. I'd be inclined to either drop it or to flesh out a whole niche for it, by making it even more unique. Something like "1 damage, light, finesse, and if the attack meets the conditions normally required for a Sneak Attack and hits, then the target is Stunned until the start of your next turn unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw".
Not sure what the DC would be up against. And you could change the timing to then end of your next turn, so you can take advantage at least once personally, or maybe a repeating save.

[LordFluffy]

When I think of finesse weapons, I think about precision over force. No blunt instrument is really about precision so much as hitting hard. I've trained in Escrima and hitting things with sticks never really struck me as "finesse" so much as "WHUMP".

Clubs work for what you're talking about, though I'd be willing to refluff a quarterstaff to be more like a police baton.

As for the sap, I'd maybe agree that since it is about placement, finesse would apply. But instead of the special, I'd put it as Non-Lethal.

"If used with finesse, i.e. using your Dex bonus to hit, any attack with this weapon that reduces a target to 0 hp renders them unconscious, even if the attacker does not declare it."

Seem reasonable? It also allows that yes, you can kill someone with a sack of lead shot.

[DanyBallon]

Thanks everyone for the input.

I rated the baton at 1d4 as it's a shorter version of a club, which is already a 1d4, light weapon.

as for the sap, being a finesse weapon, is in order to use with sneak attack, so if the trigger for the special ability is the condition to deal sneak attack, it will happen pretty much all the time. Either we drop the finesse property, or the trigger is something else. As far as damage goes, I'm fine with 1 bludgeonning instead of a 1d4. The weapon is not particulary deadly, but is quite effective to knock out someone.

Maybe instead of having to take them through the Weapon Master feat, they could be martial weapon, and added to the rogue weapon list.

As far as I'm concerned, the Weapon Master feat, would have been useful for increasing my strength or dex, I'm not still fixed on either go the strength or dex route for my dwarven rogue. The concept being a locksmith that on it's spare time use it's tool of the trade to break into other house as a side line. He will somehow be cought into an adventuring life. The weapon he use normally aren't meant to kill people, but (the baton at least) still must be useful in it's new adventuring life. Also I don't mind him starting off not being proficient with either weapon and becoming after taking the feat.

[Regitnui]

There is a pretty cool weapon in John Flanagan's "Ranger's Apprentice" series that is basically what you are looking for, but I can't remember what it was called. Basically it was the combo of a brass knuckle with the pommel of a dagger for knockouts.

I've heard of that; a trench knife is a knife with an oversized handguard that may have spikes or ridges on like a knuckleduster. They were designed in the World Wars for trench fighting.

[Ruslan]

Baton, 1d4, bludgeoning, finesse seems fine to me. There's no need to make it Exotic, IMO. In fact, even Simple is probably fine (with the exception of the damage type, it's still strictly worse than a dagger).

Then, you can homebrew a feat that gives additional abilities when wielding a finesse bludgeoning weapon ... win-win.

[Theodoxus]

I'd change the sap to work thus:

Sap: Finesse weapon that does no damage. However, when used as part of a melee weapon attack, any damage (Dex, Str, Sneak, Smite, etc) becomes the DC for the victims' Constitution Save to avoid being knocked unconscious. A sapped creature can be awakened with a DC 10 Medicine check, or any healing.

This allows higher level Rogues to wtfpwn folk without having to beat down a ton of HPs.

Heck, as a DM I'd be happy to use that rule for any weapon - not just converting the last hit to non-lethal.

[SharkForce]

I'd change the sap to work thus:

Sap: Finesse weapon that does no damage. However, when used as part of a melee weapon attack, any damage (Dex, Str, Sneak, Smite, etc) becomes the DC for the victims' Constitution Save to avoid being knocked unconscious. A sapped creature can be awakened with a DC 10 Medicine check, or any healing.

This allows higher level Rogues to wtfpwn folk without having to beat down a ton of HPs.

Heck, as a DM I'd be happy to use that rule for any weapon - not just converting the last hit to non-lethal.

that gets ridiculously strong. at higher levels, expect DCs into the 40s for rogues. you know what monster in the MM can make a DC 40 save? none of them. not even 5% of the time, because natural 20 is not automatic success on saves. that is an instant guaranteed one-shot for any monster that is not immune to being unconscious.

a DC 20 save is extremely high for 5e. you can't even get access to one as a player without using powerful magic items, not even at level 20.

[Theodoxus]

that gets ridiculously strong. at higher levels, expect DCs into the 40s for rogues. you know what monster in the MM can make a DC 40 save? none of them. not even 5% of the time, because natural 20 is not automatic success on saves. that is an instant guaranteed one-shot for any monster that is not immune to being unconscious.

a DC 20 save is extremely high for 5e. you can't even get access to one as a player without using powerful magic items, not even at level 20.

Legendary Resistance?

But yeah, it's high. Oh noes! The BBEG got knocked out! What do we do?!?

Sorry, I'm used to MMOs where the sneak can get past guards or whatever without having to worry about it... unless you make a mistake, misjudge, wake them and boom! Surrounded and end of the world, baby!

Unless you're running with a grip of rogues, this trick might work once a fight - good luck finding the one dude you have to CC, and not waste it on a minion.

I guess I should have added 'or take damage' to the list of stuff that wakes you up. Congrats, you knocked out the ancient red dragon - circle around, and line up your crits - you got 1 round to kill it... Right...

[SharkForce]

waste what attack? the requirements for a sneak attack are that you have an ally next to your target, or you have advantage. neither scenario is *that* difficult to fulfill. you can get one off every single round, two per round if you can manage a reaction attack.

edit: and i have no problem with CC per se, i just have a problem with casually handing out a DC that is more than double what you might expect PCs to be able to get, and particularly as that puts the DC well above what a monster could reasonably hope to make.

[Alejandro]

Just refluff the Light Hammer, it's already a small, finesse bludgeon. And strike for nonlethal damage as per PHB.

[DanyBallon]

Just refluff the Light Hammer, it's already a small, finesse bludgeon. And strike for nonlethal damage as per PHB.

You had me doupting and I had to check back, but unfortunately, the light hammer, isn't a finesse weapon. :smallfrown:

[Talyn]

Having the Baton be a light, finesse 1d4 bludgeoning martial weapon seems fair and balanced. If you are getting the Weapon Master feat anyways, no big deal, but if I was the DM I'd honestly let a rogue be proficient in it for free at 1st level - it's basically a bludgeoning dagger that you can't throw.

[DanyBallon]

Having the Baton be a light, finesse 1d4 bludgeoning martial weapon seems fair and balanced. If you are getting the Weapon Master feat anyways, no big deal, but if I was the DM I'd honestly let a rogue be proficient in it for free at 1st level - it's basically a bludgeoning dagger that you can't throw.

My fear was that it was overshadowing the Club, but as a martial weapon (on rogues proficiency list), I think it will be fair.

As far as the Sap goes, since there's no "non-lethal damage" in 5e I'm not sure if it's adding unnecessary complexity. Same goes for the special ability to knock unconsious someone on a natural 20

[AbyssStalker]

I am so sorry to hijack this thread, but while you are suggesting homebrewed weapon statistics, what would you put a katar at?

P.S. I convinced my group to allow shortsword stats, but piercing damage instead. Just want to make sure the representation is what most would imagine.

[SharkForce]

probably just call it a dagger.

[JackPhoenix]

I am so sorry to hijack this thread, but while you are suggesting homebrewed weapon statistics, what would you put a katar at?

P.S. I convinced my group to allow shortsword stats, but piercing damage instead. Just want to make sure the representation is what most would imagine.

Shortsword does piercing damage already, no change there.

[Talyn]

Yeah, a katar is just a refluffed dagger (or maybe short sword, depending on how big of a katar we are talking here). No need to do anything else with it.

[lunaticfringe]

When my rogue needs to sneak knockout someone he punches them with the basket hilt of his rapier like a pirate. It functions just like a normal rapier attack except the way I describe it.

Pirate cutlasses had meaty baskets specifically designed for punching the crap outta people it'd be an easy thing to say a rapier had one too.

[Malifice]

No way I would make a character spend a feat on this.

I'd just refluff an existing finesse weapon to deal B damage instead of P or S. Its other stats stay the same.

[Maxilian]

The only way this would backfire in the face of the DM is if he allows the rogue to use the UA prestige class, but... unlikely so... yeah i will go with everyone else and just say "Refluff it, your DM will allow it, he wants you to be a happy player, as long as you're not OP and blugeoning damage won't brake your character"

[Cybren]

When I think of finesse weapons, I think about precision over force. No blunt instrument is really about precision so much as hitting hard. I've trained in Escrima and hitting things with sticks never really struck me as "finesse" so much as "WHUMP".

Clubs work for what you're talking about, though I'd be willing to refluff a quarterstaff to be more like a police baton.

As for the sap, I'd maybe agree that since it is about placement, finesse would apply. But instead of the special, I'd put it as Non-Lethal.

"If used with finesse, i.e. using your Dex bonus to hit, any attack with this weapon that reduces a target to 0 hp renders them unconscious, even if the attacker does not declare it."

Seem reasonable? It also allows that yes, you can kill someone with a sack of lead shot.

Most stick fighting much more closely resembles fencing than anything else (and European stick fighting largely IS fencing).

I would allow just a bludgeoning rapier to be a baron, and a sap to be a finessable light club

[DanyBallon]

I had a new idea for the sap, how about:
1d4 bludgeonning, light, finesse, special*

*special: if the damage done by a melee attack using a sap exceed the Constitution score of the target, the target must succeed a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + sap attack bonus) or fall unconscious.

the sap would be a martial weapon and be on the rogue weapon proficiency list.


What do you think, is the special ability too strong, or to weak?

[Malifice]

I had a new idea for the sap, how about:
1d4 bludgeonning, light, finesse, special*

*special: if the damage done by a melee attack using a sap exceed the Constitution score of the target, the target must succeed a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + sap attack bonus) or fall unconscious.

the sap would be a martial weapon and be on the rogue weapon proficiency list.


What do you think, is the special ability too strong, or to weak?

To powerful.

Simply make it 'If you strike a surprised creature with a sap, you get the save'

Otherise wailing on a dude with a sap has a better chance of knocking him out than hitting him with a hammer.

Peeps used saps to daze victims without actually crushing the skull. Theyre not better at KOing anyone over a hammer or mace, theyre just nearly as good at doing it as those kinds of weapons, but without the 'stave in his skull' element attached!

[SharkForce]

To powerful.

Simply make it 'If you strike a surprised creature with a sap, you get the save'

Otherise wailing on a dude with a sap has a better chance of knocking him out than hitting him with a hammer.

Peeps used saps to daze victims without actually crushing the skull. Theyre not better at KOing anyone over a hammer or mace, theyre just nearly as good at doing it as those kinds of weapons, but without the 'stave in his skull' element attached!

more like "maybe not stave in his skull".

turns out covering a chunk of lead in leather only makes it *less* likely to kill (which really shouldn't surprise anyone). and still leaves a chance of permanent brain injury even if you don't kill.

but, since you can pretty much knock someone unconscious with a giant sledge hammer of doom and have no chance of permanent damage in D&D, it seems silly to subject the sap to any sort of special chance to cause permanent damage.

that said, i don't see why the sap would need to have some sort of special power to knock people unconscious. a strike from a reasonably suitable individual (say, strength or dexterity mod of +2) on a 1d4 weapon has a pretty good chance of one-shotting most single hit die individuals. particularly if you consider striking the target in the head to be a critical hit, or if you consider hits that do not take HP to 0 to have been improperly aimed glancing blows or to have hit on the shoulder or something like that.

you don't use a sap because it has magical superpowers that knock people out, nor does it utilize advanced brain-seeking targeting systems that lock on to the portion of the brain that when force is applied will knock someone unconscious. it isn't that a sap is more likely to take someone down, it's that it is more likely the person will be able to get back up (eventually) after using it. and just to be absolutely clear, we're talking "more likely to not cause permanent brain damage or death than hitting someone in the head with a non-padded equivalent", which is not the same as "unable to cause permanent brain damage or death".

so seriously, just make it a 1d4 light finesse simple blunt weapon. i would also allow a light 1d6 finesse blunt weapon as a martial option. trying to give it some special ability to knock people out is overthinking it. when you take the target's HP down to 0, it can knock them unconscious just like any other melee weapon.

[DanyBallon]

I think you're right and I'm overthinking the sap as you can knock unconscious a creature with any melee weapon.

[Vogonjeltz]

more like "maybe not stave in his skull".

turns out covering a chunk of lead in leather only makes it *less* likely to kill (which really shouldn't surprise anyone). and still leaves a chance of permanent brain injury even if you don't kill.

but, since you can pretty much knock someone unconscious with a giant sledge hammer of doom and have no chance of permanent damage in D&D, it seems silly to subject the sap to any sort of special chance to cause permanent damage.

Pretty much this.

Of course even that is possible if they crit and you are using the maiming variant in the DMG.