PDA

View Full Version : Original System Requesting Feedback (Gambler Class)



Bee
2015-12-11, 01:48 PM
Currently I'm working on a homebrew system that I do not have a name for yet. It is set in the Final Fantasy universe and is inspired by Dust's FFD6 system, but it has been rebuilt from the ground up. At the moment, I'm working on the Gambler from that original System and, well, it's tricky working with a meta-magic character. My initial want was for every class to have a significantly different playstyle with multiple possible builds. Necessarily, this means that the classes can be downright outlandish, which fits the Final Fantasy universe.

Brief summary: The Gambler's magic lies in re-rolling the die or taking risks. No other class in the game has the ability to re-roll a die. He has no innate mana growth, but instead uses his currency as a resource for certain abilities.

^This is why I was requesting some feedback, I really need to balance out the monetary costs. Currently, I have most mana costs as static since they're relative to the character, but with currency as a resource I plan on using a percentile system. That way, the Gambler can use his abilities at any point, with high cost to a brazen or not-very-smart one. I'll just go ahead and post it so I can get some proper feedback. I've taken most of the fluff out (explanations, example, etc.) so that you guys can see just the bare numbers.

A quick term explanation:
Destiny, a 'good play' token given by DM during rounds. Disappears at the end of the session.
(halflevel) It takes the character's level, divides it in half, and uses that as a modifier. Max level cap is 20, the player can prestige. Is this a bad system or does it scale appropriately? I feel it makes every ability viable for the length of the game, with a few falling low or reaching a bit higher (cough longshot).

Innate:
Chance -
The Gambler may activate Chance at the beginning of his turn. It divides his accuracy rolls against enemies in half. If the accuracy check against an enemy succeeds, the Gambler makes a Critical Hit and has used his attack for the turn. If he misses, he deals a standard attack worth of damage to himself. However, upon a miss, the Gambler may still perform a normal standard attack.
Note - the half accuracy takes effect after all modifiers have been placed on it.

Lucky (Passive) - Whenever the Gambler is successfully attacked, the Gambler rolls a d10. Upon rolling a 10 the attack misses, even if the attack is AoE.

Card Trick (10% of Gambler's current Currency OR GM Discretion) - Upon using one of the Gambler's currency-based abilities, or in a situation where the Gambler spends money (DM Discretion), he may choose to Gamble it back. He may flip a coin and call it in the air. If he wins, he gets the money back and this ability costs him nothing. If he loses, he loses all current Destiny and this ability costs.

Stacked Deck - The Gambler may choose any die roll, whether it be friend's or foe's. It must be rerolled. He can use this ability (halflevel) times per in-game day.

Longshot (Passive) - The Gambler gains a (halflevel+1, minimum +4) modifier to any combat or skill roll where he would need a dice roll of (level+12) or better to succeed.

Eye for Trouble (Passive) - The Gambler's familiar with danger and can easily handle the rabble. Gains (halflevel) as a modifier on all Intimidate and Negotiate checks.

Bribe (5% of Gambler's current Currency OR GM Discretion) - The Gambler may roll an opposed Negotiate check against one enemy. If the Gambler succeeds, the enemy leaves combat. If the Gambler fails, the enemy immediately aggros the Gambler and takes the currency. This cannot be used on enemies who do not understand currency.
If the Gambler critically succeeds, the enemy changes side for the remainder of combat.
This cannot succeed more than once per combat.

Hammer Space (5% of Gambler's current Currency OR GM Discretion) - This is a standard action, but it can be used while petrified or otherwise incapacitated (excluding KO'd or dead). The Gambler uses the Aether to find a random consumable item. He rolls a d100. If the item is non-damaging, the Gambler immediately uses it upon himself. If it is damaging, he uses it upon a specified enemy.

(Recommendation: Use item list, rollback to 1 if the Gambler's roll exceeds number of items. OR high rolls get useless items, low rolls get situation-specific items.)

Fold (10% of Gambler's current Currency OR GM Discretion) - The Gambler drops his cards and removes himself immediately from Combat. He may re-enter at any point during hero turn, but cannot be damaged by the enemies or AoE attacks until then.

All-in (100% of the Gambler's current HP -1) - Instant action. Gambler puts his life in the hands of the Lady. He is reduced to 1 HP, but the amount of dice he rolls on his next roll are doubled. He cannot critically fail.

Ace up the Sleeve - Upon taking damage that would reduce the Gambler's HP to 0 or below, the Gambler may immediately activate any one of his abilities free of cost (excluding All-In). Afterwards, the player is immediately KO'd UNLESS his chosen ability would restore his health. May only be used once per combat.



Slots - Slots may be cast as an instant action in combat only. The Gambler rolls 3d6. If no numbers match, the Gambler busts. If two numbers match, the Gambler get a Break. If all three numbers match, the Gambler gets a Jackpot. If the Gambler busts, take the leftmost die's number and use its Bust effect.

1 - BAR
Break - Winning High: The Gambler gains Haste for 3 turns.
Jackpot - Confidence High: The Gambler and all of his allies gain Haste for 6 turns. He is immune to all Busts for the remainder of this combat.
Bust - Losing Lows: The Gambler is slowed for 2 turns and feels the loss.

2 - COIN
Break - Gold Coin: The Gambler feels a weight in his pocket- a coin, perhaps? The Coin is a bartering chip and will remain with the Gambler until used. With the Coin, the Gambler may add (halflevel+1) to any check that includes vocal interaction between the Gambler and another person. After it is used, it disappears.
Jackpot - Platinum Chip: The Gambler gains a platinum Chip. This Chip will remain with the Gambler until used. It adds (level+1) to a check of the Gambler's choice, whatever it may be. After it is used, it disappears.
Bust - Shoulder Chip: The Gambler takes a negative (halflevel+1) to his next check involving vocal interaction between him and another person. This negative will remain with him until it is used.

3 - DRINK
Break - Raise Your Glass: The Gambler may choose to increase either Strength or Resolve by (halflevel) for 3 turns.
Jackpot - Round On the House: Allows all party members to add the Gambler's (halflevel) to their Strength or Resolve for 6 turns.
Bust - Empty Bottle: The Gambler cannot be affected by positive status effects for 3 turns. This does not prevent positive effects from Reels.

4 - PISTOL
Break - Gun in the Boot: The Gambler's weapon immediately takes on the Ranged property regardless of weapon type. If the Gambler already has a Ranged weapon equipped, he gains (halflevel+1) accuracy. Lasts for 3 turns.
Jackpot - Quickdraw: The Gambler's weapon immediately takes on the Ranged property regardless of weapon type and the Gambler gains (level) accuracy. If he already has a Ranged weapon equipped, he may make a second attack as an Instant action for the duration. Lasts for 6 turns.
Bust - Firing Blanks: The Gambler's next attack has negative (halflevel+1) reduced accuracy.

5 - DICE
Break - Sanded Corners: The Gambler gains a pair of trick dice. These dice give the Gambler the ability to reroll any one of his rolls. Afterwards, they disappear.
Jackpot - Weighted Dice: The Gambler gains a set of weighted dice. He may use this set of weighted dice to make a roll with the exact numbers of his choice. Afterwards, they disappear.
Bust - Snake Eyes: Until the end of combat, the GM may request the Gambler reroll a single roll.

6 - MAIDEN
Break - Lady Luck: The Gambler rolls a D6. For 3 turns, this roll is added to all of the Gambler's rolls.
Jackpot - Heroic Kiss: The Gambler rolls a D6. For 6 turns, this roll plus (halflevel) is added to his rolls.
Bust - Miss Fortune: The Gambler rolls a D6. For 2 turns, this roll is subtracted from all of the Gambler's rolls.


So here you guys go! A crazy class focused around taking the chance. Tell me what you guys think of it thus far.

My current biggest concern is his Innate ability, Chance. I'm wondering if there's a way I can make that a 50/50 chance that can only be slightly manipulated.
Thus far his Slots have a rough 55% chance of failure, a 40% chance of success, and a 5% chance of jackpot. That's rough math.

But hey, lay it on me- I don't have many people to playtest this kinda stuff. Is there any way to make the class more interesting, or abilities that need to be recreated? If something is super high or low on the metaphorical delta curve (because I haven't actually math'd all this out just yet, only the slots), I'll need to reconfigure it. My current thoughts are that since the Gambler legitimately has to take risks with everything he does, that drops it on the curve as a base. If his ability has a significant negative, it gets a significant positive. No other class has to do this, which is why he has such rewarding payoffs.

Bruno Carvalho
2015-12-11, 02:07 PM
As a fellow FFRPG-maker, I'm into this. I'll help to whatever I can, but let me just ask something: What are your main mechanics? 2d6+bonuses roll over? And what are your design goals?

Bee
2015-12-11, 02:34 PM
As a fellow FFRPG-maker, I'm into this. I'll help to whatever I can, but let me just ask something: What are your main mechanics? 2d6+bonuses roll over? And what are your design goals?

Right now I am setting it on a 2D6 system although I am also considering D20.
My design goals? Let me think of the best way to put it.
I want to create a system where a player can play the same class in different sessions over and over again to achieve completely different results. Each class has ten to eleven abilities, and with two prestiges, that gives them access to over 30 abilities. Innate abilities are permanent and will work with other Prestiged Innates, ranging from the Sniper whose bullets can pierce enemies but can also hit allies, to the Berserker, who upon reaching zero HP gains 1HP and Berserk (attack up and lifesteal, loss of control). Many classes also have optional abilities centered around diplomacy or acting one's way out of combat.

My primary goal is to create a system with heavy choice and little redundancy. I want every class to feel dynamically different and have completely different playstyles. It's to have the player, after they've ended the session, look back and determine all of the new possibilities they hadn't tried before. When I get all the base classes completely done (6/11 completed) I'll put a list of all the base classes, first prestiges, and second prestiges along with their innate abilities so you guys can see the bigger picture when it comes to classes.

Bruno Carvalho
2015-12-11, 05:31 PM
With that point made clear, lets go with the actual feedback

1) "Gambler's current currency" costs

What is "Gambler's current currency"? Everything he is carrying? Everything he owns? What deters a Gambler from simply GIVING all his gold to his teammates before using his abilities to use them free? What deters a Gambler from spend all his money on gear and items and simply using his abilities freely? Why the Gambler have such a strong incentive to *not* hoard money?

2) +halflevel bonuses to stats.

I do not know how you apply bonuses to rolls, but if you're going for 2d6, a +1 to +10 bonus is quite a great deal. Lets say, two lvl 16 characters try to Intimidate. Both got the same skills and stats, and one is a Gambler, while the other is not. Player A is going to roll 2d6+bonuses+8, while player B will roll 2d6+bonuses. A check DC will be either almost always-win for the Gambler or almost always-lose for the non-Gambler. This way, you'll end up with the same late-game problem as D&D 3.5, where you can basically only have sucess in the things you specialize (with the exception of magic in D&D's case).

3) Slots out-of-battle is almost costless

Slots is basically costless out of combat situations, as most of its bust drawbacks are simply inocuous out of combat situations (if you got the time to spare). What deters a Gambler to simply roll Slots after Slots out of battle to get a desired outcome?

4) The Innate, Chance, deals negative expected outcome

Lets assume a Gambler have 100% chance of hitting, with 10% chance of crit. He does, for example, 10 damage. His expected outcome is 90% x 10 + 10% x20 = 11 damage.

If he uses Chance, he'll have a 50% chance to deal 20 damage or a 50% damage to deal 10 damage in himself then attack for 100% chance of 10 damage to enemy. His outcome is 50% * 20 + 50% (-10+10) damage = 10 damage. And that's the BEST CASE SCENARIO!

If his accuracy was 60%, for example, his attacks would be 50% of 10 damage, 10% of 20 damage and 40% of 0 damage. Total expected damage of 50% x 10 + 10% x 20 = 7 damage. If he uses Chance, he'll have 30% of 20 damage and 70% of 10 damage to himself and another attack (with the 7 damage base). His total expected damage would be 30% x 20 + 70% x (-10+7) = 6 - 2.1 = 3.9 damage!

5) It dont takes a gambler to be a Gambler

All Gambler's abilities (save for Bribe) doesn't care if you're actually GOOD AT GAMBLING. Or Negotiation. Or Intimidation. Or anything, for that matter. A lvl 1 Gambler can use his powers as well as a lvl 20 Gambler. I don't know how much your game will support multiclassing, but there is nothing stopping anyone to simply dip into gambler, get all the skills he want, changing his class, and never looking back.

I cant give more opinions due to the short amount of material you published, but I'm eager to help as I can. I hope you take my comments as suggestions and observations to help you make your game better. And if you're in need of inspiration, feel free to take a look at the 4th Edition FFRPG ( in my sig) and take whatever you want from it.

Bee
2015-12-11, 06:13 PM
With that point made clear, lets go with the actual feedback

1) "Gambler's current currency" costs

What is "Gambler's current currency"? Everything he is carrying? Everything he owns? What deters a Gambler from simply GIVING all his gold to his teammates before using his abilities to use them free? What deters a Gambler from spend all his money on gear and items and simply using his abilities freely? Why the Gambler have such a strong incentive to *not* hoard money?

2) +halflevel bonuses to stats.

I do not know how you apply bonuses to rolls, but if you're going for 2d6, a +1 to +10 bonus is quite a great deal. Lets say, two lvl 16 characters try to Intimidate. Both got the same skills and stats, and one is a Gambler, while the other is not. Player A is going to roll 2d6+bonuses+8, while player B will roll 2d6+bonuses. A check DC will be either almost always-win for the Gambler or almost always-lose for the non-Gambler. This way, you'll end up with the same late-game problem as D&D 3.5, where you can basically only have sucess in the things you specialize (with the exception of magic in D&D's case).

3) Slots out-of-battle is almost costless

Slots is basically costless out of combat situations, as most of its bust drawbacks are simply inocuous out of combat situations (if you got the time to spare). What deters a Gambler to simply roll Slots after Slots out of battle to get a desired outcome?

4) The Innate, Chance, deals negative expected outcome

Lets assume a Gambler have 100% chance of hitting, with 10% chance of crit. He does, for example, 10 damage. His expected outcome is 90% x 10 + 10% x20 = 11 damage.

If he uses Chance, he'll have a 50% chance to deal 20 damage or a 50% damage to deal 10 damage in himself then attack for 100% chance of 10 damage to enemy. His outcome is 50% * 20 + 50% (-10+10) damage = 10 damage. And that's the BEST CASE SCENARIO!

If his accuracy was 60%, for example, his attacks would be 50% of 10 damage, 10% of 20 damage and 40% of 0 damage. Total expected damage of 50% x 10 + 10% x 20 = 7 damage. If he uses Chance, he'll have 30% of 20 damage and 70% of 10 damage to himself and another attack (with the 7 damage base). His total expected damage would be 30% x 20 + 70% x (-10+7) = 6 - 2.1 = 3.9 damage!

5) It dont takes a gambler to be a Gambler

All Gambler's abilities (save for Bribe) doesn't care if you're actually GOOD AT GAMBLING. Or Negotiation. Or Intimidation. Or anything, for that matter. A lvl 1 Gambler can use his powers as well as a lvl 20 Gambler. I don't know how much your game will support multiclassing, but there is nothing stopping anyone to simply dip into gambler, get all the skills he want, changing his class, and never looking back.

I cant give more opinions due to the short amount of material you published, but I'm eager to help as I can. I hope you take my comments as suggestions and observations to help you make your game better. And if you're in need of inspiration, feel free to take a look at the 4th Edition FFRPG ( in my sig) and take whatever you want from it.


Good stuff, I can use these to clarify/clean up.

1) Gambler's currency is simply stating the main currency of the game whether it be Gil, Gold, acorns, etc. A Gambler must use 5% of his/her gil to do THIS action or THAT action, etc. That's the really tricky part as some DM's give less currency throughout their games than others. I've had GM's scrape the party by, giving them literally chump change that they have to save for eternity to buy basic armor, as the DM wouldn't give drops in dungeons because 'It's unrealistic to have wearable armor or usable weapons in random spots'. Which is why I chose a percentile based cost system- regardless of what the Gambler has on hand, he can at least do something.

However, your point stands- what's to stop the Gambler from just banking his earnings to spend freely? My original design actually had something more like (levelx10) currency. But that doesn't really scale appropriately when you have thousands to spend. I could just default to mana, but that's never really been the Gambler. Technically, I could have him use Health (which one of his abilities does use), but thus far I've designated that resource mainly to Dark Knights and Berserkers.

That's mostly a choice that I can make later on- resource cost is just a number that can be scaled proportionally. Right now I want to balance the abilities themselves.

2) This is an error on the DM's part in my opinion. It's great to spec in things. It's wonderful to have a primary direction and significantly greater skills than another person while also lacking skills, the idea that if you spec in one thing you lose access to another. That's what makes the classes unique, and since nobody can really be a king of all trades makes the party consider alternatives to an issue they don't have the materials or specs for. But I expect all DM's to configure things relative to the party to keep the challenge high but not ridiculously out of reach. If a member specs in something, it's natural that he'd be more likely to succeed. What the (halflevel) scalings do is keep an ability relevant to the game throughout the entirety of the game. Of course, this scaling system is still being playtested and we're trying to decide whether we want to go 2d6 or d20- we understand that the type of dice we use will significantly alter how these abilities function. It's my opinion, though, that numbers are by far the easiest thing to deal with in this type of system. Right now, all of our current numbers are tentative. What's most important is that the abilities are well-designed and don't vastly empower the character from a meta point, and not the number point. We just want them to somewhat empower the character. Final Fantasy has always been known to embellish their action.

Example:
At level 0, without any specs in anything, no abilities, the max a character can get in a 2d6 system is 12. However, when they hit level 1 that increases significantly to, let's say, 18, as they spec skill points and take abilities. They take an ability that give them a static +2 to this or that. It's helpful up until they are around level 5, where they have +8 in perform through skill points (unrealistic, but it's happening to one of my Entertainers right now in FFD6). Suddenly, that static +2 is relatively bland to their +8 base because the DM introduces them to higher die rolls for more extravagant feats. At level 16, when the die rolls have expanded dramatically, that +2 is nearly forgotten in worth comparatively to the rolls the character is expected to achieve. Although it's my personal opinion that D20 is superior, I'm giving 2D6 a fair playtesting before I make the decision.

Simply put, I think it's the DM's responsibility to handle the challenge rating of certain checks, and create a spectrum of success and failure over a binary system of 'pass or fail'. Sure they can have a pass threshold to determine if there's a net gain, but I would prefer a character get +8 over +2 at level 20.

3) Slots can't be used out of battle. Forgot to copypasta that part. Sorry u.u;

4) Yeah, I'm still trying to think of how to give Chance a more interesting turnout. The main thing is that I want every innate to be something tangible that the player can use, instead of something passive. One possibility is that when using chance, his critical hits could do 250% or 300% damage... The idea is that the Gambler can use all of the abilities in his arsenal alongside Chance, so he gets progressively more powerful if he specs into it. That's definitely a tough one, which is why I'm still on the fence about that ability entirely.

Do you have any suggestions for a better Gambler innate? I have a few I'm considering, like removing the more 'DPS' innate and replacing it with something more utility.

5) I do want a level 1 Gambler to use his abilities as well as a level 20 Gambler. I want all abilities to be relevant in all parts of the game. There is no multiclassing. Your base class will be your base class until the end of the game. However, a Paradigm Shift will allow you to rebuild your character from the ground up with high costs (eg a Squire -> Dark Knight -> Nocturnal can go Squire -> Berserker -> Summoner). They have to keep their base class. They don't keep abilities or stats from before. Honestly, I didn't even like having that there but I was advised to at least keep the class change mechanic somewhat involved.

I suppose I should say that in a realistic view, actually gambling your character away would be detrimental. An example would be the original system, where the gambles left the player feeling unrewarded for winning because, well, in reality you lost way more than you gained. The entire point of the Gambler is that he stacks the odds to win. The term Gambler is just a Final Fantasy formality. An actual term could possibly be 'mathmetician' or something, the character has to understand how to manipulate the variables to succeed at different levels.

Bee
2015-12-14, 10:18 PM
Awright, another post about the progression of my Gambler.

I've finished out most of the numbers, but I did change that innate. Simpler, instead of dealing with accuracy it throws that out the window and essentially becomes Wildfire. I'm pretty happy with the overall balance of the meta skillset since most of the advice was based more off the tentative numbers (which can always be shifted). My main design was to make sure that all of the abilities were fair and set relatively even with the delta curve.

Thanks for your help, and if anyone else has advice I will check here regularly. As an update, I've finished:
--Magic--
Bard (Can channel classwide buffs, can move around the field quickly)
Devout (Entry White Mage)
Magus (Entry Black Mage, focuses on elemental damage. no ailments)
--Physical--
Archer (Ranger-esque, very versatile movement)
Dragoon (Dragoon, gains buffs when fighting larger monsters)
Gambler (You've seen this earlier in the thread)
Monk (Can be tanky or dps, can take a myriad of really cool skills. Uses chakra as a resource, which passively stacks per turn.)

(incomplete base classes)
--Physical--
Squire (Entry Warrior)

--Support--
Guardian (Entry Tank)
Thief (Focuses on tricks during combat)
Tinkerer (Builds small machines to help during combat. Support or DPS)

Anyways, this is just the initial Base Class. They will be able to Prestige twice into higher classes.
Eventually, they will have Base Class, 2nd Tier Prestige, and finally a 3rd Tier prestige.