Magic Initiate: A guide to an underestimated (and cool) feat

[Specter]

This is a guide to using the Magic Initiate feat correctly; in my sessions, I've noticed that players don't fully realize all the crazy ways they can change their character, both in terms of roleplay and game mechanics, with it.


So without further ado...


Why go for Magic Initiate?

- Versatility
Two cantrips to be used at will and a 1st level spell once for long rest can solve many problems in specific builds, or help characters do what they already do even better (like Fighters with Hex). Many times, simple spells like these can also unburden the main caster(s) of the group, allowing them to be more focused.

- Self-sufficiency
In groups/campaigns where magic is scarce, cantrips and 1st level spells make up for "holes" in the group. If your character usually scouts ahead of the group or does solo assignments, this is doubly true. Communication, illumination, reach... you choose.

- Flavor
Let's face it, to some people spell-less classes just feel... plain. Wouldn't it be great if 'Malakai, the Fighter' could be 'Malakai, Defender of the Enduring Flame', with Control Flames, Fire Bolt and Burning Hands? What about 'Nalia, the Monk" becoming "Nalia, the Feyblessed" with Druidcraft, Shillelagh and Faerie Fire? These are not the optimal choices, sure, but who cares - these guys are now cool!
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When is Magic Initiate a good option?

- If you're a Variant Human and/or have a feat to spare;
- If you're not MAD (relying on too many attributes to be decent);
- If you want a little more versatility and fun from a spell-less class;
- If you want a specific spell or cantrip from another class without multiclassing;
- For specific builds who need a spell for their 'combos';
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Rules of the game:

- You pick two cantrips and a 1st level spell, which must all be from the same class. That limits your options a bit, but it's not that big of a problem.
- You get to use the cantrips whenever you like, and they scale with your CHARACTER level, which means they won't suck later on.
- You get to cast the 1st level spell once per long rest.
- If you happen to have spell slots from the class you chose for the feat, you may cast your learned spell with your own slots.
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Color chart:

Blue - A solid choice, guaranteed to be good at what it does.
Purple - Mild, or too situational.
Red - Don't even.

Spells according to class:
Ba - Bard; Cl - CLeric; Dr - Druid; So - Sorcerer; Wa - Warlock; Wi - Wizard.
Ranger and Paladin spells are not included, but if you really want one you could always talk to your DM.

General tips:

- Avoid spells that have saves associated with them; you usually won't have a decent attribute score for them.
- When picking first level spells, try to focus on those who won't go obsolete after a few levels.
- And most importantly, be cool.
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Cantrips analyzed:

Acid Splash (So, Wi) - Dex save for d6 damage? No.
Blade Ward (Ba, So, Wa, Wi) - There are niche situations where this can be good, but usually the Dodge action (or getting the hell out of the way) are better.
Booming Blade (So, Wa, Wi) - If you're playing a defender-style combatant this is great, since it damages foes who move. For rogues this is almost mandatory for the damage being better than that of a regular attack. If you have extra attacks, this is not that good. From SCAG.
Chill Touch (So, Wa, Wi) - d8 damage, good range, and no healing for the target for 1 round. It gets better when used against undead, too.
Control Flames (Dr, So, Wi) - The first thematical cantrip of many. Useful mostly to show your badass side, or give ominous messages through fire.
Create Bonfire (Dr, So, Wa, Wi) - Minor battlefield control paired with convenience.
Dancing Lights (Ba, So, Wi) - A bit fancier than Light, but requiring concentration. I'll take Light over this any day.
Druidcraft (Dr) - Another thematical cantrip, this time to show nature's got your back. If you went for druid and can't find anything better, be my guest.
Eldritch Blast (Wa) - I find this better than Fire Bolt because force damage is less resisted than fire. Good range and, later on, versatility for multiple opponents, too.
Fire Bolt (So, Wi)- A staple for the pyromaniac in all of us. A bit better than Produce Flame.
Friends (Ba, So, Wa, Wi)- Many have pointed out that the benefit of this pales in comparison to the hostility it brings, but the true mischief maker knows that with effective disguise (such as Disguise Self *hint*) or deception (saying you belong to a rival organization of the NPC) this goes a long way. Also, it means free advantage on Intimidation checks, which usually make the target hostile anyway. Tavern tough guys, what are you waiting for?
Frostbite (Dr, So, Wa, Wi) - A CON save for d6 damage, but disadvantage is the bonus here. Note that sometimes your attacks will have disadvantage (such as drow in the sun), so use saves to get around that.
Green-Flame Blade (So, Wa, Wi): Basically you attack as part of casting the cantrip, and another foe close to the target gets some damage (equal to your spellcasting modifier). Gets blue at higher levels if you don't have Extra Attack and have a high spellcasting stat. From SCAG.
Guidance (Cl, Dr) - The main reason to go Cleric or Druid for the selection of the feat, this is an amazing cantrip which will never go out of style. 1d4 to an ability check is a 1d4 boost to all your skills and initiative when you have time to cast it beforehand. Need to remember the functions of a magic item? Cast it. Going to jump over a chasm? Cast it. About to open a lock? Cast it. I can keep going all day, and these bonuses can apply to any creature you touch, not just you.
Gust (Dr, So, Wi) - Minor pushing, object-throwing and fluff. Unless you have been blessed by the wind or something, pass.
Infestation (Dr, So, Wa, Wi) - Bad range, bad damage, and an effect that will be more useless than useful.
Light (Ba, Cl, So, Wi) - The utility of this over a torch is that a torch needs a free hand, while this can be cast at anything, anywhere. If you have a cantrip to spare, feel free.
Lightning Lure (So, Wa, Wi)- Very similar to Thorn Whip, minor damage and pulling the enemy closer. I'm not feeling it. From SCAG.
Mage Hand (Ba, So, Wa, Wi) - 30 feet of distance between yourself and what you're handling is the difference between life and death, sometimes.
Magic Stone (Dr, Wa) - Seems totally lame to me, but could give you okay ranged attacks. Note that if you have commoners and noncombatants with you, they can attack decently with your stat.
Mending (Ba, Cl, Dr, So, Wi) - Has its uses in breaking and entering, or if the DM insists on tearing the party's equipment. Definitely not vital, though.
Message (Ba, So, Wi) - Silent, precise and tactical communication, with good range. Becomes fundamental if you're the guy leading the group in a dungeon.
Minor Illusion (Ba, So, Wa, Wi) - It seems 5e is really about rewarding creative players, since free illusions forever is probably as good as a cantrip gets. There are many threads with uses of this, with alley screams and a pile of gold being my favorites.
Mold Earth (Dr, So, Wi) - Some uses of this include hiding treasure, destroying walls, creating foxholes and the like. Solid utility.
Poison Spray (Dr, So, Wa, Wi) - The d12 damage looks pretty neat, until you realize it targets Constitution, those who succeed on it take no damage, and poison is the most resisted/ignored damage type in the game.
Prestidigitation (Ba, So, Wa, Wi) - This has so many uses (besides flavor) that sooner or later you will be glad you have it. Cleaning bloody clothes after a fight can be especially helpful.
Produce Flame (Dr) - There are better Druid cantrips out there, but I find this a bit better than Light.
Primal Savagery (Dr) - Unless I'm missing something, there's no reason to take this. The damage and the range are shorter than Poison Spray, and there's no side effect,
Ray of Frost (So, Wi) - If you prefer to attack from range, this is better than Fire Bolt because it slows the enemy, but chances are you're already a spellcaster if you prefer to work from range.
Resistance (Cl, Dr) - +1d4 for saves? Amazing! But... due to the casting time, you need to know you're gonna need a save beforehand, which makes it worse than Guidance. The most evident use of this to me is using it before facing/trying to disarm a trap.
Sacred Flame (Cl) - God no (pun intended). Dex save, d8 damage, no damage if the target succeeds. Run.
Shape Water (Dr, So, Wi) - Mostly a thematical cantrip, which has the same flavor of Control Flames and a bit more utility. Iced drinks!
Shillelagh (Dr) - A good Druid cantrip, this time for spellcasters. With this, you can dump ST or DX (especially ST, since DX gives initiative and AC) and still join melee eventually. The fact that this makes the weapon magical is also aces. If you're a cleric, put this in your shopping list.
Shocking Grasp - I'm really not into damage cantrips if there's no utility involved, and this one is a bit better because of that. Hit 'em and run.
Spare the Dying (Cl) - You don't need to be a cleric to play the combat medic if that's your thing. Consider it a free proficiency in Medicine. Note, however, that a healer's kit will do pretty much the same.
Sword Burst (So, Wa, Wi) - I can't decide what is worse, Thunderclap or this. But it could be nice if you can't deal with many enemies up close. From SCAG.
Thaumaturgy (Cl) - Another thematical cantrip, this time to show the powers of hell (or heaven, who knows) are strong in you. Probably my favorite one of those.
Thorn Whip (Dr) - On a hit, you pull the target 10 feet closer. Good for chases, mainly.
Thunderclap (Ba, Dr, So, Wa, Wi) - For this to be optimal, you need to be surrounded, and if you're interested in this feat then a) you have better ways to deal with such a situation or b) you should get the hell out of there.
Toll the Dead (Wi, Cl, Wa) - Good damage with good range, so if you have a high attribute this could work.
True Strike (Ba, So, Wa, Wi) - Like Blade Ward, there may be some builds that use this well, but 99% of people won't.
Vicious Mockery (Ba) - The damage and disadvantage on one attack are good, but they pale in comparison to the pleasure of insulting your foe creatively.
Word of Radiance (Cl) - Like other area cantrips, but more selective. Nothing fantastic happening here.
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1st-level spells analyzed:

Absorb Elements (Dr, Wi): Awesome for characters worried about AoE spells. Cut the damage of an energy attack in half (cumulative with succeeding on the save) and get 1d6 of said energy in your next attack. If this weren't just once per day, it would be broken.
Alarm (Wi): For a sound night of sleep? Unless you're in a solo campaign, there should be a nightwatch going on.
Animal Friendship (Ba, Dr): Thematically nice and can turn enemies into friends, but should be getting obsolete after a few levels.
Armor of Agathys (Wa): If you read this spell backwards, it spells 'obsolete fast'.
Arms of Hadar (Wa): This has the same problem as thunderwave, but at least the range is wider and it helps you get away if they fail the save.
Bane (Ba, Cl): -1d4 on attacks and saves of enemies makes for one of my favorite spells. So what's wrong? It requires concentration AND a save. The save is Charisma, which is a bit unusual. But hey, at least it won't become obsolete soon.
Bless (Cl): THE level 1 buff. +1d4 to all attacks and saving throws of 3 guys is like Christmas, and any Cleric spells you plan to take must be measured against this one. Take care of that concentration.
Burning Hands (So, Wi): If damage is your deal, go for Magic Missile, or even Chromatic Orb.
Catapult (So, Wi): The only reason this is not red is because of its fantastic range of 240ft. for attacks, but I find it very meh.
Cause Fear (Wa, Wi): Frightened is a good condition against martials, so if you'd like to hamper them or just be frightening, this could work.
Ceremony (Cl): Definitely a thematic one, if you're the kind of guy who would do those things.
Charm Person (Ba, Dr, So, Wa, Wi): A lot better than Friends, but you can only use it once per day, requiring a save. Up to you.
Chaos Bolt (So): This looks like a lot of fun, but without upcasting it's not worth it.
Chromatic Orb (So, Wi): Unlike the other damage spells, you can choose the kind of energy it deals, which makes it good for exploiting vulnerabilities.
Color Spray (So, Wi): Lasts for 1 round, and will get obsolete.
Command (Cl): I like this spell because it helps a 'badass' character concept. There's a Wisdom save, though, so pick your targets carefully.
Comprehend Languages (Ba, So, Wa, Wi): If your campaign involves a lot of spying on different groups, this might be worth taking a look.
Create or Destroy Water (cl, Dr): Meh.
Cure Wounds (Ba, Cl, Dr): Goodberry/Healing Word are better.
Detect Evil and Good (Cl): Non-magic character who hunts these creatures? Cool. Others? No.
Detect Magic (Ba, Cl, Dr, So, Wi): Leave it to the caster.
Detect Poison and Disease (Cl, Dr): Haha.
Disguise Self (Ba, So, Wi): Yes. Looking like another person has infinite uses for a social character, but even a brooding monk can look like the king's son to kick some ass and create havoc.
Dissonant Whispers (Ba): The damage will be obsolete eventually, but the battlefield control it brings is pretty good.
Earth Tremor (Ba, Dr, So, Wi): Good against mobs and not much else.
Entangle (Dr): Better than the one above in my opinion, especially because it restrains spellcasters nicely (they tend to dump Strenght completely). Couple this with Mage Slayer and watch the wizards cry.
Expeditious Retreat (So, Wa, Wi): A good option for Lore Bards (to get away from melee) and non-spellcasters (to get closer to enemies). Rogues don't need this.
Faerie Fire (Ba, Dr): Requires a save, but the advantage it gives is gold, and against invisible foes this is a lifesaver.
False Life (So, Wi): Worse than Armor of Agathys.
Feather Fall (Ba, So, Wi): This is a tricky one; extremely situational, but when you need it there's no substitute. I wouldn't take it, though; I trust the DM not to kill me in a stupid fall.
Find Familiar (Wi): One of the best choices for any class. Scouting? Yep. Free advantage on attacks for you or your companions? Yep. Cool factor? Yep. If the enemy wants to target the familiar in combat, fine with me - one less attack for him.
Fog Cloud (Dr, So, Wi): Useful to shut down ranged attacks and to create a choke point in corridors, especially. If they can't see you, they can like it.
Goodberry (Dr): Free food for ten people that comes with healing? Alright. Gets blue if there's no one with Survival in the group. If you're a Life Cleric, this is almost mandatory, since each berry will heal 4 hp instead of 1.
Grease (Wi): Not worth it, and it's not even cool.
Guiding Bolt (Cl): Advantage is always good. Can't complain about the damage and range, either.
Healing Word (Ba, Cl, Dr): Better than Cure Wounds; bonus action, greater range, only a verbal component. If a companion falls in battle and your bonus action is just sitting there, you know what to do.
Hellish Rebuke (Wa): Hell no (see what I did?). Requires a save, gets obsolete... you know the drill.
Heroism (Ba): Requires a high spellcasting attribute to be efficient. If you have it, whatever. Bonus points for cool speeches in battle.
Hex (Wa): Oh yeah. The main reason to go for Warlock; 1d6 damage with a bonus action is totally worth it, especially low-mid game. You also give disadvantage to ability checks tied to an attribute, which should screw rogues trying to hide, Shield Masters... simply great.
Ice Knife (Dr, So, Wi): If you don't feel like choosing between an attack spell or a save spell for damage, this gives you a limited use of both. Don't expect greatness from it, though.
Illusory Script (Ba, Wa, Wi): Too situational to be your choice.
Identify (Ba, Wi): Useful for the Indiana Jones in you, and also unburdens the main caster of the group.
Inflict Wounds (Cl): You're only going to consider using this if you have no equipment at all.
Jump (Dr, So, Wi): Cool? Yes. Good? No.
Longstrider (Ba, Dr, Wi): I prefer Expeditious Retreat.
Mage Armor (So, Wi): If you're not a caster, you either have proficiency in armor or Unarmored Defense. It could give a DEX-based character a +1 to AC, but it lasts for 8 hours.
Magic Missile (So, Wi): They hit automatically and have good range, so it could be good if you don't have the Dexterity for a bow.
Protection from Evil and Good (Cl, Wa, Wi): See Detect Evil and Good, above.
Purify Food and Drink (Cl, Dr): No.
Ray of Sickness (So, Wi): Too many variables, and you probably won't be good at them.
Sanctuary (Cl): Good to protect civilians, and eventually even yourself, but the save should be a piece of cake if you have a low Wisdom.
Shield (So, Wi): Can turn a hit into a miss, and the AC lasts for a round. Better used right after your turn, and against a gamebreaker blow. Solid choice.
Shield of Faith (Cl): So which one is better, Shield or this? In my opinion, this: +2AC goes a long way with Bounded Accuracy, and you don't have to worry about saving the best for last. Both are good, though.
Silent Image (Ba, So, Wi): An improvement to Minor Illusion, but that is a cantrip.
Sleep (Ba, So, Wi): At low levels this can change a battle; at higher levels, it'll only be useful if someone can't sleep.
Snare (Dr, Wi): Run away.
Speak with Animals (Ba, Dr): I like this one; surprisingly good when it comes to gathering information. Thematically nice, too.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (Ba, Wi): Well, there's a repeated save every turn. Need I say more? If you have a decent casting stat, this goes to purple.
Tenser's Floating Disk (Wi): Pure convenience, too situational.
Thunderwave (Ba, Dr, So, Wi): Is it just me or does everything starting with 'Thunder' stinks?
Unseen Servant (Ba, Wa, Wi): Manipedi, anyone? A bit cooler than Tenser's, but still mild.
Witch Bolt (So, Wa, Wi): The damage is lame and it will get lamer in the future.
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A CLASS BY CLASS ANALYSIS
Coming soon!
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SAMPLE PACKS

I. The Pact Warrior
Spells Class: Warlock
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast/Chill Touch, Minor Illusion/Mage Hand
Spell: Hex
Good for: Fighters, Monks, Assassins, non-Vengeance Paladins

It's simple: 1d6 = 3.5 average extra damage per attack. The more attacks, the merrier. The cantrips should fit your group's needs.
*
II. The Mischief Maker
Spells' class: Wizard (if Intelligence is higher) or Bard (if Charisma is higher)
Cantrips: Friends, Minor Illusion
Spell: Disguise Self
Good for: Rogues, mainly

Intrigue, framing, deception, entrance in parties, you name it. Many will say that a one-level dip in wizard or bard or even the Arcane Trickster is better, and it could be, but in the long run I'd much rather get a capstone or another archetype than that.
*
III: The Believer
Spells' class: Cleric
Cantrips: Guidance, Spare the Dying/Thaumaturgy
Spell: Bless
Good for: Any non-cleric

Who said gods only reward their temple acolytes? As a believer, your role depends on the situation. If an ally is about to attempt a skill check, say 'God be with you'. If you're about to attempt a skill check, say 'God be with me'. If an ally is dying, say 'God spare this life'. If everybody's in combat, say 'God be with us'.
*

Thank you for your time.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Nice list, but being this is such a subjective list there's so much to disagree with.

For instance, how can you rate Spare the Dying blue, when you can buy a medical kit for 10gp in an edition short on uses for gold? And then you rated Mending as red when it's literally the only spell in the game which can repair an object. To get the same effect you'd need a boat-load of tool proficiencies, and to carry all said tools and the necessary raw materials around with you.

[Ruslan]

how can you rate Spare the Dying blue, when you can buy a medical kit for 10gpThat's actually a pet peeve of mine. Spare the Dying is one of those cases when a spell is amazingly flavorful, yet so neutered by mechanics that only a masochist will actually spend a slot (or in this case, cantrip known) on it.

[Lavok Rammstein]

I've taken Magic Initiate with my War Cleric. Booming Blade, Green Flame blade, and Absorb Elements. Sure I only have one attack, but with the Cantrips and Divine Strike, I hit hard. AE is great for when you run into AoE, or breath weapons.

[SharkForce]

and yet another person who thinks that mold earth is no different from having a shovel. hey, it's not like you get an hour worth of digging out of 6 seconds worth of casting a cantrip or anything like that, right? not like tunneling and creating defensive fortifications are useful for people who regularly get into fights or anything after all.

[Ruslan]

If nothing else, you can use Mold Earth to write "TAGARIUS*, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, WAS HERE" on the ground in 20' letters whenever the party stops to rest.


* your character name doesn't have to be Tagarius. But even if it isn't, I suggest you still write "Tagarius, Destroyer of Worlds, was here", because it probably sounds cooler than your actual character's name.

[Specter]

Nice list, but being this is such a subjective list there's so much to disagree with.

For instance, how can you rate Spare the Dying blue, when you can buy a medical kit for 10gp in an edition short on uses for gold? And then you rated Mending as red when it's literally the only spell in the game which can repair an object. To get the same effect you'd need a boat-load of tool proficiencies, and to carry all said tools and the necessary raw materials around with you.

There is that. I'll probably update it to purple.

When it comes to Magic Initiate, you can't really rely on anything extremely situational like Mending. After all, it is a feat you're using. I would leave things like that to a full caster, if anybody.

[Specter]

and yet another person who thinks that mold earth is no different from having a shovel. hey, it's not like you get an hour worth of digging out of 6 seconds worth of casting a cantrip or anything like that, right? not like tunneling and creating defensive fortifications are useful for people who regularly get into fights or anything after all.

It's important to note that these spell reviews are oriented toward the feat, not spellcasting in general. Does it suck absolutely? No. But would you waste 1/3 of a feat to do that? Probably not.

[Felvion]

Good job there mate. I don't agree with everything you said but the coolness factor tends to get more and more underestimated while most players seek optimization before everything else. Thankfully this edition offers lots of options to create a unique character without feeling useless and the magic initiate feat is one of them. I think of the same for the ritual caster too even though i find the one-class-only restriction a bit harsh.
As for your guide, i think you made a mistake when you mentioned the barbarian and a concentration spell (hex) in the same sentence. There should be a disclaimer somewhere warning barbarians to take only out of combat spells as they are supposed to be raging when battle occurs.

[Specter]

As for your guide, i think you made a mistake when you mentioned the barbarian and a concentration spell (hex) in the same sentence. There should be a disclaimer somewhere warning barbarians to take only out of combat spells as they are supposed to be raging when battle occurs.

Totally escaped my mind. Thanks, man.

[gfishfunk]

Excellent and thought provoking.

Quick thoughts:

- You may want to add the clarification that the level 1 spell cannot be cast at a higher level through a caster class.
- Eldrich Blast should probably be higher, as it scales really well.
- You may want to talk briefly about Ritual Caster feat; I noticed in your find familiar spell that it is great...but that can be accomplished another way. Also Magical Initiate provides a spell once a day, and Find Familiar will be cast far less than that. I can still see it being a solid choice, though.

I have previously rolled my eyes at the feat as the honorary Warlock Eldrich Blast feat...now I think I'm going to take another look at it for upcoming builds.

[SharkForce]

It's important to note that these spell reviews are oriented toward the feat, not spellcasting in general. Does it suck absolutely? No. But would you waste 1/3 of a feat to do that? Probably not.

i absolutely would spend 1/3 of a feat for the ability to rapidly dig, create difficult terrain, move earth around whenever i feel like it, etc. instant fortifications any time i'm camping the wilderness? the ability to rapidly undermine an enemy's walls and towers unless they have exceptionally deep foundations? the ability to chase burrowing monsters into their burrows without having to squishy myself down to something tiny? the ability to rapidly create hiding places for things i don't want found, the ability to go right through dirt walls. heck, if multiple people in a group take it you can really slow down a group of enemies trying to get through a narrow space (like a dungeon hallway).

mold earth is an excellent cantrip, and does not require a high casting attribute. it has all the hallmarks of being a great candidate for magic initiate. if you think it isn't good, that's probably because you haven't spent much time asking yourself "if i could dig out a 5' cube of ground right now, would it be useful?"

[Specter]

Excellent and thought provoking.

Quick thoughts:

- You may want to add the clarification that the level 1 spell cannot be cast at a higher level through a caster class.
- Eldrich Blast should probably be higher, as it scales really well.
- You may want to talk briefly about Ritual Caster feat; I noticed in your find familiar spell that it is great...but that can be accomplished another way. Also Magical Initiate provides a spell once a day, and Find Familiar will be cast far less than that. I can still see it being a solid choice, though.

I have previously rolled my eyes at the feat as the honorary Warlock Eldrich Blast feat...now I think I'm going to take another look at it for upcoming builds.

1) Will do.
2) Attack cantrips are not rated higher because of the attacking stat. Unless the character is already in a spellcasting class, chances are they're not gonna be as accurate with them.
3) That would take another thread entirely, but it's a valid option.

[gfishfunk]

if you think it isn't good, that's probably because you haven't spent much time asking yourself "if i could dig out a 5' cube of ground right now, would it be useful?"

In the small fishing village from which I hail, it is the sole topic of conversation.

[Specter]

i absolutely would spend 1/3 of a feat for the ability to rapidly dig, create difficult terrain, move earth around whenever i feel like it, etc. instant fortifications any time i'm camping the wilderness? the ability to rapidly undermine an enemy's walls and towers unless they have exceptionally deep foundations? the ability to chase burrowing monsters into their burrows without having to squishy myself down to something tiny? the ability to rapidly create hiding places for things i don't want found, the ability to go right through dirt walls. heck, if multiple people in a group take it you can really slow down a group of enemies trying to get through a narrow space (like a dungeon hallway).

mold earth is an excellent cantrip, and does not require a high casting attribute. it has all the hallmarks of being a great candidate for magic initiate. if you think it isn't good, that's probably because you haven't spent much time asking yourself "if i could dig out a 5' cube of ground right now, would it be useful?"

Well, you've convinced me, especially for the 'hiding treasure' and 'destroying walls' bit.
Following burrowing monsters is asking too much, since they will move a lot and you would waste an action to move 5' of earth.

[gfishfunk]

3) That would take another thread entirely, but it's a valid option.

I wouldn't go too in depth, but you might just want to note that there is a second (maybe better, in some cases) way of getting that ritual - along with other potentially higher level rituals as the game goes on.

[SharkForce]

Well, you've convinced me, especially for the 'hiding treasure' and 'destroying walls' bit.
Following burrowing monsters is asking too much, since they will move a lot and you would waste an action to move 5' of earth.

not following burrowing monsters. following a monster into a burrow. don't think bugs bunny burrowing, think "oh, that regular mundane rabbit went into a hole that it dug out over the course of hours, or that it took from another animal that did that". plenty of animals live in holes in dirt but don't dig nearly fast enough to have a burrowing speed, i wouldn't be surprised if you occasionally run into small enemies that do the same.

[Flashy]

It's not important enough to warrant mentioning in the guide, but Produce Flame on a Cleric rocks. It's generally considered a pretty sub-par cantrip, but just having an attack roll cantrip that still uses wisdom adds an astonishing amount of combat flexibility.

[Maxilian]

I don't agree with many of the options:

-Booming Blade: This is one of the best options, even more cause it uses the normal weapon modifier, so this is one of the less MAD cantrip you can get

-Create Bonfire: Does a good amount of damage, scale well and gives you some control in the Battlefield

-Magic Stone: Its not as bad as you could think, it makes your attack CHA based (or WIS based), its basically the ranged Shillelagh, it can help you make a less MAD CHA based character (so your attacks and your spells will scale together)

-Shocking Grasp: Not many cantrips can be used with the Find Familiar spell, this one can be use in that way, and you could also get advantage in some cases... (If you have the Find Familiar spell, take this)

-Thorn Whip: This is really good, you can pull an enemy caster from the backline to the frontline, or you can pull an enemy away from an ally, so they can move without provoking OA

-Thunderclap: It could be good for tanky characters (if you plan to be in the frontline and all that, but it may make you a little MAD)

-Dancing Lights: It does require concentration, that makes it worse than light BUT... most characters that will take Magic Initiate aren't going to use their concentration on anything else, and... it can be used in many Roleplay situations (something that Light doesn't provide)

Note: Most attack cantrip are better in classes that don't have Extra attack or Eldritch Knights

[D.U.P.A.]

lol I was recently thinking to write something about this feat too. Anyway, you could use more than 3 levels of rating, you could go the standard Red/Violet/Black/Blue/Sky Blue/Gold (yes, even gold can be used here).

I still disagree to some of ratings, many are dependant of which class are you playing, for cantrips Booming and Greenflame blade are at least Blue for weapon users (although extra attack then is not uses, but if you are not high level fighter, it is okay). Magic stone is compatible with extra attack, so it is decent choice for Paladins, Valor bards, Rangers and maybe War clerics. Thunderclap and Sword burst are good if you are swarmed with low level mob, but usually DMs prefer use less monsters because it is easier to handle. Spare the dying is always at hand, because Healer's kit must be purchased and not lost, it is not always the case. Finally, Lightning lure is designed for a defender, like Paladin. Definitely I would choose at least one combat cantrip, especially for a martial class.

As for spells, because they are limited once per day, damaging ones are not the best choice, unless they do something special. This is why I would rate Burning hands and Thunderwave a little higher (although black at max or violet in your case), they can do a little difference. Definitely Mage armor is higher, because of 8 hours no concentration, every Dex based class could take it. Hex I would rate gold if possible, pretty much the main reason to get feat from Warlock's side, especially if you are fighter with so many attacks, also you do not requires to have good Cha stats. Shield can be rather obsolete if you play by the rules to announce before the roll outcome is known, unlike Absorb elements when you get resistance in any case. As ritual spells, including Find familiar, are better suited for Ritual casting, although for Cha based classes it is not always possible.

[ZenBear]

Would taking MI:Wizard on an EK allow you to use as many spell slots on the MI choice as you have? I'm thinking about Absorb Elements specifically.

[Corran]

Very nice guide. I quite like how you went into the trouble of providing some thematic packages. Here is one, it is not the most optimal, or optimal at all, but I enjoeyd going through the cantrips and spells and trying to combine them in a way that would make sense as a theme that could be added to a character.

Here is what I would give to a fighter to give him a slight paladin feel. Maybe this fighter dropped out from the ''paladin academy'' so he never got to become one, but at least some of all he was taught sank in.

Chivalrous Warrior
Spell class: Bard
Cantrips: Light, Blade ward
Spell: Heroism
Good for: No one really, but I find it cool.

As I said, not an optimal choice, but heroism does a good job trying to immitate aura of courage (one of the most important trademarks of the paladin class), light (if cast on your sword) can do a good job immitating the iconic sacred weapon channel divinity of the devotion paly, and blade ward can simply allows you stand longer alive so makes you want to take all the hits and draw the attention of the enemies from your allies (so in a way, it allows you to better protect your allies if you are ok with spending your action not attacking). So charge against the monster no one dares approach (heroism), lead the way into the dark dungeon with your glowing sword in hand (light), and stand against that goblin force long enough so that the villagers can escape with their lives (well, ok, dodge will be better in almost every case if you have a decent AC, but it blade ward fits the concept more than any other bard cantrip, and it can situationaly be useful).

[SharkForce]

Would taking MI:Wizard on an EK allow you to use as many spell slots on the MI choice as you have? I'm thinking about Absorb Elements specifically.

officially yes, so long as you are gaining magic initiate in a class that you actually cast spells as.

but isn't absorb elements abjuration anyways? i'd look for one of the nicer spells that isn't either abjuration or evocation personally.

i've also found some DMs are more tolerant of multiclasses if you use magic initiate to get some minor spellcasting in the class you're multiclassing into before you're able to actually take the class itself, which is another use for the feat.

[djreynolds]

It is a good thread and good feat. It is good to know that cantrips scale with character level, and the 1st level spell stays the same.

Shield is good, +5 once a day after a hit as a reaction especially for a warrior who does not qualify for defensive duelist
SoF is +2 but for time period and that is cool its not just one strike
Bless for three guys or gals, save or attack
Identify is nice
Detect Magic, yes. Think it do it. Is that deep gnome you just saved something else, and is going around the corner to change and come back and kick your *ss as you doff your armor. No one has this memorized or prepared because it is a ritual. So many times I wish I could cast this.
Protection from E/G, disadvantage from level 1 on. Always good. Demons and undead and abberations and etc abound, and your cleric and wizard may have to buff themselves up first. You could take resilient wisdom
Absorb Energy, is good same as above with resilient dex and shield master

This is a great post, because even a healing spell is nice. It is easy to stand back and say when you level up you should do this or that. But during play, there are times I wish I had some abilities to do other things. Not every party is constructed the same and this could fill in gaps for people who like adventure over optimization

[E’Tallitnics]

You should add that by choosing this feat you're considered to be a member of the class who's spells you select for purpose of magic item attunement: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/21/item-attunement-feat-and-races/

[E’Tallitnics]

Control Flame should be rated higher as one of its (No Concentration!) effects is that a non-magical fire source (torch, lantern, etc.) has a x2/4/8 benefit to the radius of its light & dim light effect, with no additional fuel expenditure.

Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 16:
"You double or halve the area of bright light and dim light cast by the flame, change its color, or both. The change lasts for 1 hour." + "If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action."

Each increase does require an Action (Cast a Spell), but out of combat this is a really nice effect.

[SharkForce]

Control Flame should be rated higher as one of its (No Concentration!) effects is that a non-magical fire source (torch, lantern, etc.) has a x2/4/8 benefit to the radius of its light & dim light effect, with no additional fuel expenditure.

Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 16:
"You double or halve the area of bright light and dim light cast by the flame, change its color, or both. The change lasts for 1 hour." + "If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action."

Each increase does require an Action (Cast a Spell), but out of combat this is a really nice effect.

it doesn't stack on itself. if nothing else, the flame is no longer non-magical after you've enhanced it once, even if spells did work like that.

it is also useful iirc for putting fires out reliably, but it still generally isn't particularly amazing unless you want a fire-themed character pretty much.

[Tanarii]

Guidance requires concentration to use. That's not a deal breaker for many classes, but it is for a few. Especially Warlocks, who want to maintain their Hex from combat to combat. I've even run into problems with it Clerics.

I think you're overrating Prestidigiation. It's good if you're a con-man, but not for much else other than flavor, solid purple cantrip.

Minor Illusion is definitely blue. But it does potentially allow a skill check against your casting DC. I don't think that reduces its awesome, just pointing it out.

I keep trying to think of good uses for True Strike given its S only component, but since striking from hiding gives you advantage anyway, it's difficult. Maybe in a social setting when you don't expect to get surprise (ie win a Deception vs their Intuition) when you launch your assassination attempt? Or need to exit hiding and cross significant ground in plain view before making a melee attack?

[Specter]

I haven't rated anything sky blue because a character usually has a better choice than Magic Initiate. If a Paladin has to choose between a little more versatility from this feat or something like Resilient (Constitution) or Great Weapon Master, going with the latter two usually means better optimization. More colors would also mean more discussion about moving their ratings up or down, which is kinda counterproductive in my opinion.

I'll add the spellcasting attunement part to the guide, which is very important, and analyse the comments on the spells soon. Thanks for making a guy feel at home.

[VariSami]

So, I am planning on playing a Lore Bard in a campaign starting in January. Either Half-Elf or Variant Human, probably the former. This feat really tickles me the right way since I am a sucker for minor magical effects. Would you say that taking this with Warlock as the basis, probably taking Eldritch Blast, Hex, and some utility which the amount of Bard cantrips does not cover would be worth it? There seems to be no reason to consider Variant Human over Half-Elf, though, just to gain access to these faster. Perhaps there are better combinations? I do not have a build yet but as a Lore Bard, the character will likely focus on debuffing and being a skill monkey. Hex would support this while Eldritch Blast gives a decent alternative combat action in addition to Vicious Mockery.

[Specter]

So, I am planning on playing a Lore Bard in a campaign starting in January. Either Half-Elf or Variant Human, probably the former. This feat really tickles me the right way since I am a sucker for minor magical effects. Would you say that taking this with Warlock as the basis, probably taking Eldritch Blast, Hex, and some utility which the amount of Bard cantrips does not cover would be worth it? There seems to be no reason to consider Variant Human over Half-Elf, though, just to gain access to these faster. Perhaps there are better combinations? I do not have a build yet but as a Lore Bard, the character will likely focus on debuffing and being a skill monkey. Hex would support this while Eldritch Blast gives a decent alternative combat action in addition to Vicious Mockery.

MY two cents: For the cantrips, I would take Eldritch Blast to be better at ranged combat, and some other utility like Create Bonfire (the best Warlock cantrips apart from Eldritch Blast are already on the Bard list). If your campaign features a lot of undead, Chill Touch may be worth a look too.

Hex is a better option for a Valor Bard, since they have more attacks and join combat more often. A good 1st-level warlock spell that the Bard does not have is Expeditious Retreat. I'd go for that (especially with the Fiend pact, just to sing RUNNING WITH THE DEVIL).

Also keep in mind that with the Lore Bard's Additional Magic Secrets, you can pick two spells from any class up to level 3, which would be better for debuffing than those from Magic Initiate (Slow and Counterspell come to mind).

[SharkForce]

I would argue that with the right combination, magic initiate could be a very optimized feat choice.

for example, suppose you want to build a paladin that you intend to tank with. you grab warcaster for advantage on concentration and the ability to use spells with somatic but no material components even while using your shield, and suddenly magic initiate for booming blade starts looking like a pretty good choice.

or of course if you're a sorcerer, magic initiate can let you add an extra spell known, which is a pretty substantial boost.

if you're a moon druid, magic initiate for mage armour can be another example of a fairly optimized choice (and while you're at it you can grab light and another spell that doesn't have a save DC or attack roll).

[Rookwood]

Awesome guide thing, magic initiate does seem really useful.:smallbiggrin:

[PoeticDwarf]

For hellish rebuke and armor of agathys. If you are a caster already these are very strong, damage for reaction or an too strong spell if casted on a higher level? Yes please

Did you srs rate detect magic red...

[SharkForce]

For hellish rebuke and armor of agathys. If you are a caster already these are very strong, damage for reaction or an too strong spell if casted on a higher level? Yes please

Did you srs rate detect magic red...

magic initiate only lets you cast the spell with the spell slot it gives you, unless you are of the class you chose magic initiate for. once per day as a level 1 spell slot really reduces the value of many otherwise good spells quite a bit. it isn't that armor of agathys is a bad spell... rather, getting it once per day is simply not as good as other things.

detect magic, for example, is a nice spell... but being able to use it only once per day at the cost of a feat? not so exciting.

[VariSami]

MY two cents: For the cantrips, I would take Eldritch Blast to be better at ranged combat, and some other utility like Create Bonfire (the best Warlock cantrips apart from Eldritch Blast are already on the Bard list). If your campaign features a lot of undead, Chill Touch may be worth a look too.

Hex is a better option for a Valor Bard, since they have more attacks and join combat more often. A good 1st-level warlock spell that the Bard does not have is Expeditious Retreat. I'd go for that (especially with the Fiend pact, just to sing RUNNING WITH THE DEVIL).

Also keep in mind that with the Lore Bard's Additional Magic Secrets, you can pick two spells from any class up to level 3, which would be better for debuffing than those from Magic Initiate (Slow and Counterspell come to mind).

I see. Create Bonfire does not appear to be in the Player's Handbook and I do not yet know whether we will have access to any splat material. Taking Expeditious Retreat as an old 3.5 player feels a bit odd, but I can see the benefit in it. I shall look more into this when the time comes. By now, I cannot even tell whether we will reach 4th level (the campaign is 8 sessions long and I do not know our starting level but it will likely be either 1 or with some luck 3).

[ZenBear]

Considering you would have full use of it, what spell would you suggest an EK take for MI:Wizard? I'm thinking ProtG/E or Detect Magic perhaps.

[Corran]

Considering you would have full use of it, what spell would you suggest an EK take for MI:Wizard? I'm thinking ProtG/E or Detect Magic perhaps.
Why not shield, which is a 1st lvl spell you will have either way, and then spend the known spell you would have spent on shield for another higher level spell.

[ZenBear]

Why not shield, which is a 1st lvl spell you will have either way, and then spend the known spell you would have spent on shield for another higher level spell.

Good point! I forgot that you can change your EK spells as you level.

That being said, MI is another opportunity to pick up a non-A/E spell.

[PoeticDwarf]

magic initiate only lets you cast the spell with the spell slot it gives you, unless you are of the class you chose magic initiate for. once per day as a level 1 spell slot really reduces the value of many otherwise good spells quite a bit. it isn't that armor of agathys is a bad spell... rather, getting it once per day is simply not as good as other things.

detect magic, for example, is a nice spell... but being able to use it only once per day at the cost of a feat? not so exciting.

Erata: you can cast it with your own slots.

That means armor and rebuke become great.

Detect magic still better than spells as chromatic orb. It is a spell you sometimes just need

[SharkForce]

Erata: you can cast it with your own slots.

That means armor and rebuke become great.

Detect magic still better than spells as chromatic orb. It is a spell you sometimes just need

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats

"If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes" (bolding mine, for emphasis).

which is exactly what I said in the first place. if you are a warlock, you can use your spell slots (from any class) to cast armor of agathys whether you gained it from your class or from the magic initiate feat. if you are not a warlock, you can only cast it from the magic initiate feat slot.

and yes, detect magic 1/day is marginally better than chromatic orb. but that is mostly because chromatic orb is a spectacularly bad choice for magic initiate, not because detect magic is a great spell. find familiar or mage armor (for the right class) are examples of spells that you can get great value out of casting once per day, and which are worth a good rating. hex is another example because it gives you a large boost for up to an hour, which is quite significant. detect magic is just not competitive with those sorts of options. it isn't awful, but it isn't great either.

[Addaran]

Love your guide and magic initiate is one of my favorite feat. =)

A few other packs.

I. The Pact Ranger or Nature-follower
Spells Class: Druid
Cantrips: Shillelagh, Thorn Whip/something else
Spell: Absorb Elements (something else druidic like Animal Frienship or Entangle)
Good for: Figher, Monk or Cleric/Paladin

If you don't have magic, gives you a ranger feel without dipping. You can change your attack stat to wis and absorb elements is a great spell that just become better and better as you lvl. Or if you're a paladin/cleric of a nature god, your casting stat is suddent

2. The Pact of Flame
Spells Class: Sorcerer/Wizard
Cantrips: Create Bonfire/Control Flame/Firebolt
Spell: Burning Hand
Good for: Fire-themed character or EE cultist.


3. The Pact of Water
Spells Class: Sorcerer/Wizard
Cantrips: Frostbite/ Ray of Frost/ Shape water
Spell: Ice Knife or Grease (sheet of ice)
Good for: Water/ice-themed character or EE cultist.

4. The Pact of Air
Spells Class: Sorcerer/Wizard
Cantrips: Gust/Mage Hand, Shocking Grasp/Thunderclap
Spell: Featherfall/Thunderwave/Witchbolt
Good for: Air-themed character or EE cultist.

5. The Pact of Earth
Spells Class: Sorcerer/Wizard
Cantrips: Mold Earth/Magic Stones/Acid Splash
Spell: Earth Tremor
Good for: Earth-themed character or EE cultist.

6. The Illusionist
Spells Class: Sorcerer/Wizard
Cantrips: Minor Image, Prestidigitation
Spell: Silent Image
Good for: Crowd entertainner and illusions are always great to prepare the field before a fight.

7. I don't want to be alone
Spells Class: Wizard
Cantrips: ???
Spell: Find Familiar
Good for: Everyone likes familiar, they give so much versatility and compagnionship for the lonely guard shift. =D

[Flashy]

If you don't have magic, gives you a ranger feel without dipping. You can change your attack stat to wis and absorb elements is a great spell that just become better and better as you lvl. Or if you're a paladin/cleric of a nature god, your casting stat is suddent

Paladins are cha now, so shillelagh from magic initiate doesn't key off their casting stat. The rest of your suggestions are totally solid though.

[Addaran]

Paladins are cha now, so shillelagh from magic initiate doesn't key off their casting stat. The rest of your suggestions are totally solid though.

Oups. Probably got confused with the paladin/warlock of tome build that mentionned shillelagh. Thanks for the correction. =)

[Dimers]

It's important to note that these spell reviews are oriented toward the feat, not spellcasting in general. Does it suck absolutely? No. But would you waste 1/3 of a feat to do that? Probably not.

Absolutely, yes. The ability to reshape the ground at will is delightfully flexible.

I'd also argue that Sword Burst deserves better than red, simply for the fact that it can multitarget. Obviously it's not going to be your bread-and-butter attack, but it could easily be better than other options in common situations. And it's potentially thematic too -- look, I'm all metallic and spikey! (I'd put it with Thorn Whip and maybe Bane or Shield for a theme package.)


So, I am planning on playing a Lore Bard in a campaign starting in January. Either Half-Elf or Variant Human, probably the former. This feat really tickles me the right way since I am a sucker for minor magical effects ...

Go with Variant Half-Elf from SCAG to swap Skill Versatility for either high elf's Cantrip or drow's Drow Magic. :smallcool:

[sreservoir]

7. I don't want to be alone
Spells Class: Wizard
Cantrips: ???
Spell: Find Familiar
Good for: Everyone likes familiar, they give so much versatility and compagnionship for the lonely guard shift. =D

Cantrips: Friends, of course.

[bid]

One very important factor that is missing is which stat the spell will use. For instance, your Pact Warrior pack has EB/chill touch as offensive cantrip but a monk will never raise their Cha.

[gfishfunk]

Great list and great guide.

Can I make a single recommendation? Please state more clearly, preferably bolded, that the level 1 spell you cast cannot be cast at a higher level. That is the most common misconception with Magic Initiate.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Great list and great guide.

Can I make a single recommendation? Please state more clearly, preferably bolded, that the level 1 spell you cast cannot be cast at a higher level. That is the most common misconception with Magic Initiate.

IIRC, one exception being if the spell is already on your class list, you may cast it normally with your other spell slots.

[E’Tallitnics]

IIRC, one exception being if the spell is already on your class list, you may cast it normally with your other spell slots.

You remember correctly.

[JellyPooga]

-Dancing Lights: It does require concentration, that makes it worse than light BUT... most characters that will take Magic Initiate aren't going to use their concentration on anything else, and... it can be used in many Roleplay situations (something that Light doesn't provide)

This is an excellent point.

It's also worth noting that Dancing Lights only provides Dim Light, whilst Light provides Bright Light. Nothing says "HI I'M HERE!!" like a big bright light in the dark, whilst the dim light of Dancing Lights can be used a lot more subtly. Remember that Darkvision treats complete darkness as dim and dim light as bright, to if you have no light source at all, those with Darkvision are still operating with Disadvantage to Perception. With Dancing Lights, you can operate at full effectiveness without having a giant beacon announcing your presence and if your enemies don't have Darkvision, they'll be at Disadvantage to see you coming (they'll know you're in the vicinity because even dim light in the dark is obvious, but they won't necessarily know who or what is in the vicinity).

Dancing Lights is the hooded lantern of the magical world. A solid choice for Rogues and other sneaky types.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Dancing lights is excellent for signalling armies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html).

[E’Tallitnics]

This is an excellent point.

It's also worth noting that Dancing Lights only provides Dim Light, whilst Light provides Bright Light. Nothing says "HI I'M HERE!!" like a big bright light in the dark, whilst the dim light of Dancing Lights can be used a lot more subtly. Remember that Darkvision treats complete darkness as dim and dim light as bright, to if you have no light source at all, those with Darkvision are still operating with Disadvantage to Perception. With Dancing Lights, you can operate at full effectiveness without having a giant beacon announcing your presence and if your enemies don't have Darkvision, they'll be at Disadvantage to see you coming (they'll know you're in the vicinity because even dim light in the dark is obvious, but they won't necessarily know who or what is in the vicinity).

Dancing Lights is the hooded lantern of the magical world. A solid choice for Rogues and other sneaky types.

It's worth noting that by the RAW only Racial Darkvision changes Dim Light. Magical Darkvision does not.

[Giant2005]

A few things:

Firstly, your entire spiel about magic initiate being used to qualify for magic items isn't True. Take your cited example of a Rod of Resurrection for example; having magic initiate doesn't make you a cleric, druid, or paladin, so the feat has no influence on whether or not you can use the item.

Secondly, you have vastly overrated Shillelagh. The only class that could make use of it via magic initiate, is the Cleric. However, using it would lower a Cleric's damage potential to the point that it is a trap option that looks nice, but is really very harmful.
A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR is:
Round 1: Cast Spiritual Weapon and attack
Round 2: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 3+: Attack with everything you have.

A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR and has to rely on Shillelagh is this:
Round 1: Cast Shillelagh and attack.
Round 2: Cast Spiritual Weapon and Attack
Round 3: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 4+: Attack with everything you have.

Essentially, it delays all of your spell unloading by an action, which is even more harmful than it sounds. Most fights don't last very long, and by delaying your attack routine by a round, you are delaying it to the point where it is no longer economical to use it - Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell if you are only going to get one rounds worth of damage out of it. Without Shillelagh, you would get two rounds and it becomes a lot more worthy.

Thirdly, you are seriously underestimating the spell Mending. Archery is one of the most powerful combat forms in the game, yet it isn't even really feasible without fudging the rules somewhat, or using Mending. Mending is what makes one of the most powerful combat forms in the game possible - without it ammunition is far too much of a drawback.

Fourthly, this one is probably the least overt mistakes you have made, but I also think Prestidigitation is underrated. The reality of it would be that it would fall halfway between blue and purple, so it being considered purple isn't so terrible, but as you have obviously rounded up some Cantrips that fall into the same situation (Minor Illusion), Prestidigitation should receive the same privilege. I think a solid argument could be made for Prestidigitation being more valuable than Minor Illusion as not only can it be used for a lot of Minor Illusion's uses (and in some cases do the job better), but it can also perform a large number of other functions.
Also, you can never underestimate the value of making your friend's food taste like crap every time they eat something.

[ZenBear]

A few things:

Firstly, your entire spiel about magic initiate being used to qualify for magic items isn't True. Take your cited example of a Rod of Resurrection for example; having magic initiate doesn't make you a cleric, druid, or paladin, so the feat has no influence on whether or not you can use the item.

Secondly, you have vastly overrated Shillelagh. The only class that could make use of it via magic initiate, is the Cleric. However, using it would lower a Cleric's damage potential to the point that it is a trap option that looks nice, but is really very harmful.
A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR is:
Round 1: Cast Spiritual Weapon and attack
Round 2: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 3+: Attack with everything you have.

A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR and has to rely on Shillelagh is this:
Round 1: Cast Shillelagh and attack.
Round 2: Cast Spiritual Weapon and Attack
Round 3: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 4+: Attack with everything you have.

Essentially, it delays all of your spell unloading by an action, which is even more harmful than it sounds. Most fights don't last very long, and by delaying your attack routine by a round, you are delaying it to the point where it is no longer economical to use it - Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell if you are only going to get one rounds worth of damage out of it. Without Shillelagh, you would get two rounds and it becomes a lot more worthy.

Thirdly, you are seriously underestimating the spell Mending. Archery is one of the most powerful combat forms in the game, yet it isn't even really feasible without fudging the rules somewhat, or using Mending. Mending is what makes one of the most powerful combat forms in the game possible - without it ammunition is far too much of a drawback.

Fourthly, this one is probably the least overt mistakes you have made, but I also think Prestidigitation is underrated. The reality of it would be that it would fall halfway between blue and purple, so it being considered purple isn't so terrible, but as you have obviously rounded up some Cantrips that fall into the same situation (Minor Illusion), Prestidigitation should receive the same privilege. I think a solid argument could be made for Prestidigitation being more valuable than Minor Illusion as not only can it be used for a lot of Minor Illusion's uses (and in some cases do the job better), but it can also perform a large number of other functions.
Also, you can never underestimate the value of making your friend's food taste like crap every time they eat something.

I disagree with your point about Shillelagh. A Hill Dwarf Life Cleric gets excellent use out of it for the simple reason of opportunity cost. A single Feat and now STR is a dump stat. Pump WIS to max asap, now you're free to grab Feats/pump CON and your melee is still relevant. Having to burn a BA every once in a while is a minor inconvenience; you should be casting it out of combat so it's always on and you don't need to cast it during combat. Also, your rotation is off. Cast SG first round, then SW, then attack. In any case, you don't have to cast that rotation every combat because this isn't WoW and dps rotations aren't so important.

[Coffee_Dragon]

IIRC, one exception being if the spell is already on your class list, you may cast it normally with your other spell slots.

The SA entry doesn't explicitly lift the 1st-level restriction, though.

[Giant2005]

I disagree with your point about Shillelagh. A Hill Dwarf Life Cleric gets excellent use out of it for the simple reason of opportunity cost. A single Feat and now STR is a dump stat. Pump WIS to max asap, now you're free to grab Feats/pump CON and your melee is still relevant. Having to burn a BA every once in a while is a minor inconvenience; you should be casting it out of combat so it's always on and you don't need to cast it during combat. Also, your rotation is off. Cast SG first round, then SW, then attack. In any case, you don't have to cast that rotation every combat because this isn't WoW and dps rotations aren't so important.

I agree in that DPS rotations aren't so important, but Shillelagh is a spell that does nothing outside of inflicting DPS. If it is harming your DPS rather than helping it, then it isn't much use at all.
And you might be right about the order of the rotation itself. I haven't bothered working out which is actually more efficient (and that probably largely depends on what level slot you are casting Spirit Guardians in). I just went with that rotation due to it enabling an extra action (having SW cast prior to SG means that you can use a bonus action while casting SW, otherwise your bonus action will be wasted on the round you cast SW), and it just seems more fun being able to do more things in a quicker amount of time.

[Giant2005]

One thing worth mentioning is Magic Initiate's synergy with the Boon of Spell Mastery.
A class without access to magic would find it very worthwhile to take Magic Initiate as their level 19 feat, if they had reason to believe that they would continue playing past 20. Worthwhile enough to state with certainty that a non-magic using character would be making the wrong choice by taking anything other than Magic Initiate at that level, regardless of that character's circumstances (except for maybe a Barbarian, yet even that it debatable).

[Coyote81]

I'd like to add in that Green Flame Blade may be ranked higher then you thought. Yes at level 1-4 it add only spellcasting modifier to the secondary target. But at levls 5/11/17 it adds another 1d8 to both the main target and the secondary target. This is a large amount of extra damage for any class the doesn't get extra attack, with or without a spell casting modifier.

My idea:

Arcane Duelist
Class: Wizards/Sorc
Cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade
Spells: Mage Armor of Find Familiar(Wizard)
Useful for: Rogues/Rangers/Bards/Warlocks/Clerics


Example:
My Favorite use for this setup is taking it with Mage Armor on a Hunter Ranger

The Hunter's extra attack from Horde Breaker is triggered by Green Flame Blade (One of the few ways to get an extra attack when casting GFB), The find Familiar is a natural fit for the Ranger to help the scout, scout even better. Also adding advantage in combat against your target, since Hunter's don't have a built in advantage mechanism.

Full build idea for those interested:
Dex Based with min wis for mutliclassing and high Cha
Weapons whip/buckler Studded Leather
V-Human:Magic Initiate(Sorc):Mage Armor, GFB/BB
L3 Ranger(Hunters) Horder Breaker/Dueling Style/Cure Wounds/Goodberry/longstrider
L3 Fighter(Battlemaster) Defense Style/Sweeping Attack/Trip Attack/Precision Attack
Continuing on into Sorcerer(Dragon:Red) Eventually get quick cast/haste/+cha to fire damage

This gives you a crazy amount of attacks against 2 targets GFB against targets 1 and 2, with extra fire against both, horde breaker against one target. Sweeping strike 4 times. Haste attack against one target: with +cha to you GFb attacks against main +extra.

[Coffee_Dragon]

One thing worth mentioning is Magic Initiate's synergy with the Boon of Spell Mastery.

That is highly dependent on interpretation. BoSM says you no longer have to expend a slot. MI normally doesn't have you using slots in the first place.

[ZenBear]

I agree in that DPS rotations aren't so important, but Shillelagh is a spell that does nothing outside of inflicting DPS. If it is harming your DPS rather than helping it, then it isn't much use at all.
And you might be right about the order of the rotation itself. I haven't bothered working out which is actually more efficient (and that probably largely depends on what level slot you are casting Spirit Guardians in). I just went with that rotation due to it enabling an extra action (having SW cast prior to SG means that you can use a bonus action while casting SW, otherwise your bonus action will be wasted on the round you cast SW), and it just seems more fun being able to do more things in a quicker amount of time.

First round cast SG as your action and Shalala as your bonus. No loss of action efficiency and you get SG running from round 1.

[Addaran]

Secondly, you have vastly overrated Shillelagh. The only class that could make use of it via magic initiate, is the Cleric. However, using it would lower a Cleric's damage potential to the point that it is a trap option that looks nice, but is really very harmful.
A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR is:
Round 1: Cast Spiritual Weapon and attack
Round 2: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 3+: Attack with everything you have.

A Clerics usual routine if he wants to achieve DPR and has to rely on Shillelagh is this:
Round 1: Cast Shillelagh and attack.
Round 2: Cast Spiritual Weapon and Attack
Round 3: Cast Spirit Guardians and attack with Spiritual Weapon.
Round 4+: Attack with everything you have.

Essentially, it delays all of your spell unloading by an action, which is even more harmful than it sounds. Most fights don't last very long, and by delaying your attack routine by a round, you are delaying it to the point where it is no longer economical to use it - Spirit Guardians is a terrible spell if you are only going to get one rounds worth of damage out of it. Without Shillelagh, you would get two rounds and it becomes a lot more worthy.



You seem to forget that Shillelagh cost absolutly no ressource. Your exemple might be true in a boss fight where you go nova, but you often won't want to waste multiple spells in one encounter, especially at low level. Shillelagh lets you do better damage all day long, while having more stats to put elsewhere.

Most cleric have a "+1d8 damage to one attack per turn". In those case, shillelagh is awesome, since you can "dump" str and dex while still doing damage. (or even if you don't dump those stats, your wis will probably be higher)

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well. A Monk who's more interested in his stunning fist DC then damage for exemple. A ranger in a low-magic item game. It works well too if you want a character very resistant to mind-effect or very good with wisdom skills. (a dwarven fighter with a con/wis focus, wearing an heavy armor)

[Giant2005]

First round cast SG as your action and Shalala as your bonus. No loss of action efficiency and you get SG running from round 1.

You can't do that - if you cast Shillelagh, you can only cast another Cantrip that round.


You seem to forget that Shillelagh cost absolutly no ressource. Your exemple might be true in a boss fight where you go nova, but you often won't want to waste multiple spells in one encounter, especially at low level. Shillelagh lets you do better damage all day long, while having more stats to put elsewhere.

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well. A Monk who's more interested in his stunning fist DC then damage for exemple. A ranger in a low-magic item game. It works well too if you want a character very resistant to mind-effect or very good with wisdom skills. (a dwarven fighter with a con/wis focus, wearing an heavy armor)

Those are fair points (except for maybe the Ranger - that one was a bit of a stretch).
There is a resource cost though, the lost feat itself is the expense. Using Point Buy, someone could have 18 Str/Dex and 20 Wis on the same level it takes someone (that isn't a variant human) else to get their hands on both the feat and capped Wisdom. It means for only 1 ASI more, you can have capped both stats, resulting in better skill checks, saving throws, and not losing a bonus action/blowing your unloading routine. Those are the things you are giving up for the sake of a single ASI, and I just don't think it is worth it.

[Addaran]

You can't do that - if you cast Shillelagh, you can only cast another Cantrip that round.



Those are fair points (except for maybe the Ranger - that one was a bit of a stretch).
There is a resource cost though, the lost feat itself is the expense. Using Point Buy, someone could have 18 Str/Dex and 20 Wis on the same level it takes someone (that isn't a variant human) else to get their hands on both the feat and capped Wisdom. It means for only 1 ASI more, you can have capped both stats, resulting in better skill checks, saving throws, and not losing a bonus action/blowing your unloading routine. Those are the things you are giving up for the sake of a single ASI, and I just don't think it is worth it.

Shillelagh would be the cantrip you cast after using SG. You can take the bonus action after and the cantrip only restriction won't matter cause it's a cantrip.

Rangers are martial that don't have access to magic weapon via their abilities AND are already using wisdom for class-stuff. ;)

True about those kind of ressource at character creation. I was thinking of in-game ressource once the character is build.
Hopefully you don't take magic initiate just for one cantrip, you'll have a 2nd one you want and a lvl 1 spell. Magic Initiate is best for variant humans, since you can't just exchange it for a +2 anyway.

Magic Initiate is rarely the most optimal choice, but it is a very fun choice that opens up new possibilities instead of just +1 to-hit/+1dam. In those case, you can still use 1/3 of the feat for a little bonus (even if it's just having a simple weapon that does 1d8 in one hand or for the magic part).

[Naanomi]

I love Shillelagh on a ranger; so many of their other abilities run off Wisdom you can really focus on it and master those skills. Shillelagh, Magic Stone, Healing Word has been on two rangers I've played (an Undead forcused Hunter and a Water Gensai Beastmaster

Also a good pick for a Hill-Dwarf Cleric in heavy armor... SAD indeed

[8wGremlin]

I'm partial to the arcane vhuman cleric.
MI:Druid. For shillelagh
And Arcane domain for booming blade.
Wearing medium armour

[Rysto]

Aside from the cleric, anyone with great wis use can use it well.

Ironically, anyone with a great WIS other than a Druid. The trouble is that Druids get neither an extra attack (while the Ranger and Monk do) nor any other abilities that add additional damage to a hit (which some Cleric domains do), so Shillelagh doesn't scale at all for them.

[bid]

Shillelagh would be the cantrip you cast after using SG. You can take the bonus action after and the cantrip only restriction won't matter cause it's a cantrip.
There's no such thing.

You cannot cast another spell on the same turn. It doesn't matter if you cast it before or after.

[Specter]

The beauty of Shillelagh is that it's free and uses a bonus action. It's an alternative for melee sword-and-board rangers to dump STR completely and make WIS the highest for awesome casting.

Besides, if you pick a druid 1st-level spell that is also on the ranger list, you can cast it with your own spells, and treat it as another learned spell, which Obad-Hai knows they need.

[Christian]

There's no such thing.

You cannot cast another spell on the same turn. It doesn't matter if you cast it before or after.

Just in case this isn't totally clear to everyone, let me rephrase & add a concurring opinion.


BONUS ACTION ... You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. (PHB 5E pg. 202)

Spirit Guardians is not a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action, so it cannot be cast during the same turn as a spell cast with a bonus action. It does not matter whether the bonus action spell is a cantrip or not.

[RulesJD]

Do not take the Druid spell list if you're a Cleric looking for Magic Initiate. You are infinitely better off going Wiz/Sorc (assuming you didn't completely dump stat both) and picking up GFB/BB/Shield/Absorb Elements (or Find Familiar).

Those two cantrips will next you massively more DPR at level 5+ and it only goes up from there at level 11+.

[Addaran]

Bid and Christian, yeah i was confused with the rules.

Since if you cast a (high lvl) spell as your bonus action, you can only use a cantrip, i was assuming that the reverse is true. If you cast a cantrip as a bonus action, you could use a high lvl spell as your action.

Though now i can see why the rule is not just "can only cast 1 non-cantrip per turn" since it would screw the reaction spells.

[Theodoxus]

Do not take the Druid spell list if you're a Cleric looking for Magic Initiate. You are infinitely better off going Wiz/Sorc (assuming you didn't completely dump stat both) and picking up GFB/BB/Shield/Absorb Elements (or Find Familiar).

Those two cantrips will next you massively more DPR at level 5+ and it only goes up from there at level 11+.

That's why I went high elf on my Life Cleric - got BB for free at 1st and MI [Druid] for Shillelagh at 4th (only had 1 level to struggle where the extra damage was movement dependent).

Sure, I only have an 18 Wis (we rolled) - and I got Dawnbringer (Sun Blade) in the Out of the Abyss game, so with my 14 Dex, Shillelagh is identical (though now I don't have to cast it...) I kinda wish there was a retraining option - +2 Wis would be arguably better than the 40 points of healing from Goodberry 1/long rest...

[RulesJD]

In all cases, improving your Wisdom does more damage than anything else for a Cleric.

More Wisdom = Higher save DC. For Spirit Guardians alone that makes a big difference in damage when calculated against how many enemies you'll be hitting with it and for how long (10 minutes is basically an entire dungeon if you don't short rest). This gets even more so when you start up-casting it, adding an extra 4.5 damage (d8) per spell slot.

It is even more important for Tempest Cleric builds that use Shatter/Call Lighting and maximize the damage.

[Christian]

Bid and Christian, yeah i was confused with the rules.

I think that one confuses a lot of people--pretty sure it made the Sage Advice column one month.

[Oramac]

First, great guide! I like the idea of a Fighter/Barbarian getting a few spells for kicks.

I would say I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on save damage cantrips. Sure, it's no-damage-on-save, but that's not any different than an attack cantrip that's no-damage-on-miss.

[Specter]

First, great guide! I like the idea of a Fighter/Barbarian getting a few spells for kicks.

I would say I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on save damage cantrips. Sure, it's no-damage-on-save, but that's not any different than an attack cantrip that's no-damage-on-miss.

True that. But AC is easier to assess in an opponent than their saves. At least without metagaming. As a 12-int Fighter I would never try to hit some full-plated dude with Fire Bolt, but his wizard friend looks like an easier pick.

[Oramac]

True that. But AC is easier to assess in an opponent than their saves. At least without metagaming. As a 12-int Fighter I would never try to hit some full-plated dude with Fire Bolt, but his wizard friend looks like an easier pick.

A fair point. Which brings up an optimization question: is there a table or something that shows a break point where a save spell becomes better/worse than an attack spell?

[Sillybird99]

What do you guys think about a Sorcerer taking mage initiate:sorcerer to increase his low spells known and get 1 more 1st level slot for casting shield or whatever?

[RulesJD]

What do you guys think about a Sorcerer taking mage initiate:sorcerer to increase his low spells known and get 1 more 1st level slot for casting shield or whatever?

It's a pretty terribad use of Magic Initiate.

Far better off going Druid to snag Guidance + Absorb Elements, or Wizard for Find Familiar.

Higher level sorcs can convert spell points so easily that 1 extra 1st level slot + 1 first level spell known doesn't cut it for a feat that could be significantly better spend on Elemental Affinity, et al.

[Sillybird99]

Ha good to know.

[bid]

A fair point. Which brings up an optimization question: is there a table or something that shows a break point where a save spell becomes better/worse than an attack spell?
It's 3 points.

A Dex14 wizard in mage armor has AC15, you need +4 hit to hit half the time.
The same wizard saves half the time against DC12, the same 8+4.

[SharkForce]

It's a pretty terribad use of Magic Initiate.

Far better off going Druid to snag Guidance + Absorb Elements, or Wizard for Find Familiar.

Higher level sorcs can convert spell points so easily that 1 extra 1st level slot + 1 first level spell known doesn't cut it for a feat that could be significantly better spend on Elemental Affinity, et al.

disagree.

the slot isn't super useful, but hey, it's something. certainly i would never recommend converting SP into spell slots unless you're seriously desperate, in any event, so i don't consider the ability to convert SP into spell slots to be a reason to not pick up a bit more in the way of spell slots. metamagic (and the sorcery points you use to access metamagic) is the only reason to play a sorcerer in the first place.

but most importantly, that spell known is gold for a sorcerer. that isn't a level 1 spell known, either. it's a level whatever the heck you want spell known. because you know shield (or whatever level 1 spell) via magic initiate, you can replace the level 1 spell you would otherwise know with a spell of whatever other level you can cast. for a sorcerer, 1 extra spell known is very nice. yeah, it needs to be level 1... but the spell known it's replacing can become any level.

now, if your sole purpose is to nuke as a sorcerer, that level 1 slot may be relatively minimal. but you could still pick up something good from that extra spell known.

[RickAllison]

This guide got me thinking about a non-optimized fighter using this feat. The banneret focuses on Charisma, so taking MI: Warlock would give Magic Stone as a Charisma-based cantrip that worked with Extra Attack. With a house-rule that the number of magic pebbles can increase with level, we have a fighter reliant almost solely on Charisma.

15/8/16/8/8/16, variant human with MI

Take Intimidation as a class skill and Deception and Performance through background and you have a party face in heavy armor. I kind of like the idea...

[Specter]

This guide got me thinking about a non-optimized fighter using this feat. The banneret focuses on Charisma, so taking MI: Warlock would give Magic Stone as a Charisma-based cantrip that worked with Extra Attack. With a house-rule that the number of magic pebbles can increase with level, we have a fighter reliant almost solely on Charisma.

15/8/16/8/8/16, variant human with MI

Take Intimidation as a class skill and Deception and Performance through background and you have a party face in heavy armor. I kind of like the idea...

Could work. I personally would take Eldritch Blast because it's a cantrip, and I think Magic Stone is the lamest thing ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

This is a good resource, but it could be better, so I'm replying here even though it's old. Hope that's okay.

Scouts

Message - This is brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider snagging this. Being able to communicate with your artillery while hidden is a key aspect of modern dungeon warfare.

Minor Illusion - This is also brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider also snagging this. Communication + misdirection allows you to set up ambushes and otherwise capitalize on superior information. Remember that miscommunication kills, so make sure it's pointed at the other guys.

Round out the package with Disguise Self.

[Addaran]

This is a good resource, but it could be better, so I'm replying here even though it's old. Hope that's okay.

Scouts

Message - This is brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider snagging this. Being able to communicate with your artillery while hidden is a key aspect of modern dungeon warfare.

Minor Illusion - This is also brilliant on a scout. Every Rogue and Ranger should consider also snagging this. Communication + misdirection allows you to set up ambushes and otherwise capitalize on superior information. Remember that miscommunication kills, so make sure it's pointed at the other guys.

Round out the package with Disguise Self.

Minor Illusion is also great to use as a kind of hologram to show them what you scouted. (the monster looked like "this", there was this symbol, the rough map of the room is like this, etc)

[Zene]

Great idea for a guide. And nice job on it.

MI is so much fun, and so flavorful, that I get the urge to take it on every character I build. (I do successfully resist on a lot of them).

I still get weird looks when people realize I took MI: Druid on my Life Cleric / Wizard tank. But Shillelagh and Thorn Whip take that character's front-line and tanking skills to new levels, and 40 extra healing per day via Goodberry (that my teammates can even use to revive me if I happen to get dropped) is amazing. IMO, there is no other feat I could have taken as a variant human that would have even come close to being as useful for him.

A few thoughts on the guide:

Thorn whip is amazing (at least for cleric tanks). A wisdom-based 30' melee spell attack that can pull enemies off squishies (meaning they can move away without provoking OAs) and/or pull them next to you (so if they go for the squishies again they'll provoke an OA from you). I've even used it, standing behind a couple melee-ers, to pull an enemy to them -- again now it can't go for the ranged attackers without taking a couple of OA's.
Despite some of the comments in this thread, I do not find mold earth to be useful. Maybe it's because I play AL, but most DMs focus on the "loose earth" part of the spell description, and interpret that literally. Which means it's never useful for tunneling. Maybe if you're on a beach, I guess, or need to excavate a very-freshly-dug grave. And setting up difficult terrain or fortifications would be awesome, if you ever were in a place that you knew a battle was coming to you in the next hour and you had time to set up... but again, that's never happened. And hunter's traps/caltrops/ball bearings do pretty much the same thing, and wouldn't require you giving up a cantrip slot.
I'm kind of surprised that the ranged attack cantrips aren't rated higher. For classes that don't have much in the way of scaling ranged damage (paladins, monks, barbarians), having an option that scales in damage every few levels seems like it'd be great, in those situations where you just can't get close -- even if it's just as you're closing in the first round. To be fair, I haven't played those classes much, so I may be missing something obvious here.
A note on Bless vs. Hex: If you're a multiattacker with Sharpshooter/GWM, I believe Bless is a better boost to your dpr than Hex. I don't have the math handy, but if someone wants to double-check go for it. Otherwise I think Hex wins out. But going MI cleric for bless means you also get to take guidance, which is just sooo amazing.

[Zene]

Oh and to the folks discussing whether Shillelagh is a dpr-killing trap option for a melee cleric, in my experience it's only a very slight decrease - basically you sacrifice 1 attack of spiritual weapon each fight, in return for being much less MAD.

Here's how a fight typically goes for me:
If there are a lot of targets: Round 1 I cast spirit guardians and close in to melee distance. Round 2 I cast shillelagh and booming blade/greenflame blade (or thorn whip or sacred flame if I'm still closing). Round 3 I cast spiritual weapon and booming blade/greenflame blade. Subsequent rounds are attacking with spiritual weapon and booming/gfb.
If there are few targets or I want to conserve resources: Round 1 I cast shillelagh and booming/gfb (or thorn whip or sacred flame if I'm still closing). Round 2 I cast spiritual weapon and booming/gfb. Subsequent rounds are attacking with spiritual weapon and booming/gfb.

So in other words, I use one round's bonus action to cast shillelagh in which I'd otherwise be casting spiritual weapon, one round early. (And in those occasional situations where I have time to prepare, I pre-cast shillelagh anyway, so there's no actual loss). As a wis-based cleric with booming blade, the extra dpr and enemy lockdown I get from being able to do booming blade attacks with wisdom instead of str far outstrips the damage from one extra round of spiritual weapon. I suppose for short fights, at some levels, upcasting spiritual weapon might win out... but for short fights, I doubt I'd want to use a high-level slot on spiritual weapon anyway.

Yes, this build does require a cleric with access to both shillelagh and booming blade. I did it by taking magic initiate and 1 level of wizard, but you could also do it by being a variant half-elf, a high elf, a nature cleric, or an arcana cleric; combining any of those with Magic Initiate would save you the wizard level (but you'd be making other tradeoffs as well).

At level 6 I find I'm out-dpr-ing most of the party, tanking just about as well as the fighters, and have the option at any time to switch over my bonus actions or regular actions to heal. Having goodberries on-hand, and the life cleric's channel divinity, means I can even do healing word and a non-spell heal with my action if things get really dire.

[Nifft]

A note on Bless vs. Hex: If you're a multiattacker with Sharpshooter/GWM, I believe Bless is a better boost to your dpr than Hex. I don't have the math handy, but if someone wants to double-check go for it. Otherwise I think Hex wins out. But going MI cleric for bless means you also get to take guidance, which is just sooo amazing.
[/LIST]

Bless can be maintained by anyone.

If you're a Fighter with 2 to 4 attacks per turn, only you can give yourself that extra Hex damage.

(And, of course, they stack.)

[Ruslan]

I love the Hex+Friends combo. Give yourself advantage on Deception, give them disadvantage on Insight. Tell lies to your heart's content.

Or Disguise Self+Friends. Make them hostile to you ... except they think you are someone else!

[Specter]

I'm positively surprised by the replies.

- Friends is awesome for groups that just don't care. With those lawful good paladins and concerned parties, you may need to hide your activities a bit.
- Shillelagh is so good for clerics it should be mandatory. It's like a feat that says, "you can never bother to bump str beyond your starting point", or "dump str forever and have a regular AC while still attacking well".
- Classes that don't have a ranged option like Paladin should definitely take a ranged cantrip. White room theorics always forget that sometimes enemies won't be around to get smacked in the face.

[Zene]

Bless can be maintained by anyone.

If you're a Fighter with 2 to 4 attacks per turn, only you can give yourself that extra Hex damage.

(And, of course, they stack.)

True. And if you can get another friend to cast haste on you, and another to cast foresight on you... you've got it made.

I play AL though, and I find if I don't bring my own buffs, >50% of the time I won't get them. Even bless at low levels, I am constantly shocked by how many clerics don't cast it.

(And when I'm playing the cleric I usually would rather save my concentration for other things than bless since I hit 5th level)

[Specter]

True. And if you can get another friend to cast haste on you, and another to cast foresight on you... you've got it made.

I play AL though, and I find if I don't bring my own buffs, >50% of the time I won't get them. Even bless at low levels, I am constantly shocked by how many clerics don't cast it.

(And when I'm playing the cleric I usually would rather save my concentration for other things than bless since I hit 5th level)

With bounded accuracy, Bless can be used throughout the game easily. The 11th-level cleric in my players uses it all the time, always nicely.

[Zene]

Yeah especially with rogues, sharpshooters, and GWMs, bless is amazing all the way up through 20. My low level comment was just pointing out that even when there's nothing else really competing for concentration, it's still often not cast (when it definitely should be).

[Callin]

I have used Gust to good effect against skirmishers.

[Addaran]

I'm kind of surprised that the ranged attack cantrips aren't rated higher. For classes that don't have much in the way of scaling ranged damage (paladins, monks, barbarians), having an option that scales in damage every few levels seems like it'd be great, in those situations where you just can't get close -- even if it's just as you're closing in the first round. To be fair, I haven't played those classes much, so I may be missing something obvious here.



It could work, but you need great stats in the secondary ability. Your martial can already use some ranged attacks with str or dex and they have extra attack, so two chances for damage. The cantrip is all or nothing and will usually use a weaker stat. That's especially true for barbarians and fighters.

For paladins, a charisma cantrip would be awesome and for monk, a wisdom cantrip, since they'll often want a 20 in that stat.

[ad_hoc]

- Friends is awesome for groups that just don't care. With those lawful good paladins and concerned parties, you may need to hide your activities a bit.

Friends is a niche social interaction ability. Most of the time the social interaction will last more than a minute. It's not about not caring, it's about actually achieving goals.



- Shillelagh is so good for clerics it should be mandatory. It's like a feat that says, "you can never bother to bump str beyond your starting point", or "dump str forever and have a regular AC while still attacking well".

It allows you to contribute slightly more during easy fights. The problem is that it isn't free. Magic Initiate has a significant cost.



- Classes that don't have a ranged option like Paladin should definitely take a ranged cantrip. White room theorics always forget that sometimes enemies won't be around to get smacked in the face.

Again, Magic Initiate has a significant cost. I think those Paladins would be better off with some thrown weapons.

[Flashy]

[QUOTE=ad_hoc;21527984]It allows you to contribute slightly more during easy fights. The problem is that it isn't free. Magic Initiate has a significant cost./QUOTE]

Magic Initiate is quite strong on Light and Knowledge clerics who don't get martial weapon or heavy armor proficiencies. Since you NEED dex for your AC and Sacred Flame is your only damage cantrip it can be really helpful to pick up a couple druid attack roll cantrips so that you aren't literally useless when you come up against a high dex enemy, an enemy with Magic Resistance, or both. It's either that or plinking away with a light crossbow at 1d8+2. Having taken it on a Vuman Knowledge Cleric I have regularly been very glad to have Produce Flame.

Spell Sniper works equally well for this, in fairness.

[ad_hoc]

literally useless

Clerics do get spells in addition to their cantrips.

[bid]

For paladins, a charisma cantrip would be awesome and for monk, a wisdom cantrip, since they'll often want a 20 in that stat.
Monk can get 2d6+10 (17) using shortbow, almost as good as 4d8 (18) cantrips.

[RickAllison]

Monk can get 2d6+10 (17) using shortbow, almost as good as 4d8 (18) cantrips.

Now it is great for an off-build of monk, like an armored Long Death. That can certainly make for a viable character, but it is far from an average monk...

[djreynolds]

Another very useful guide, awesome.

[Shining Wrath]

I am considering taking this feat on my Paladin. Strength based heavy armor build, Dexterity a dump stat, and if you're in a situation where you don't want to close with the monster (rust monster, ooze, ...) you can run out of ammo quickly. But ah, the benefits of adding charisma based cantrips to a paladin! For example, Fire Bolt for the 120' range, and Ray of Frost so the evil ones can't escape you.

[DarkKnightJin]

Necrothread, but..
Is there a plan to extend the options to include the spells from Xanathar's Guide?

[Specter]

Necrothread, but..
Is there a plan to extend the options to include the spells from Xanathar's Guide?

Yes sir! If I weren't so busy, it would have been updated already.

[Pex]

and yet another person who thinks that mold earth is no different from having a shovel. hey, it's not like you get an hour worth of digging out of 6 seconds worth of casting a cantrip or anything like that, right? not like tunneling and creating defensive fortifications are useful for people who regularly get into fights or anything after all.

When one of my groups played the White Plume Mountain adventure from Yawning Portal the warlock used Mold Earth to block the floating flowing river. That caused the room where the ambush was to fill up with water, forcing those bad guys to come to us via the secret door in the hallway we never found. We hid under the kayaks when they came in, weakened them with a Fireball, then let the warlock finish them off in Darkness. It was beautiful. We knew about the ambush thanks to the warlock's familiar traversing the river first.

[MxKit]

I love making thematic "packages" for this Feat! Yours are pretty great, and I've come up with some of my own over the past few months:

The Comedian
Spells Class: Bard
Cantrips: Mage Hand/Minor Illusion/Prestidigitation, Vicious Mockery
Spell: Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Good for: Paladins, Sorcerers, Warlocks, anyone who went high Charisma for flavor. Choose one of those three cantrips to taste (any of those can be used for physical comedy!). Use your sense of humor to bring the pain. Force them to find you hilarious! (At least once a day.)

The Heckler
Spells Class: Bard
Cantrips: Message, Vicious Mockery
Spell: Bane
Good for: Non-EK fighters who don't multiclass into magic casting classes might benefit most, given that bane won't be competing with any other spells for concentration. GOO Warlocks probably get least, since Awakened Mind is basically just a much better message. Anything that needs nice ranged options and some utility would benefit.

The Fae-Touched
Spells Class: Bard
Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Friends, Minor Illusion (pick any 2)
Spell: Faerie Fire
Good for: Want to play a Fae-touched Ancients Paladin? Or be able to go Celestial Warlock (maybe with a unicorn patron!) rather than Archfey and still get access to faerie fire? (Warlocks can always use a few extra spells, too...) Or maybe you want to refluff some Sorcerer class as being blessed/cursed by the Fae (Wild Magic works great for this, but maybe a fae blessed your family to be part pseudodragon!). If you're going for a charismatic Fighter or Rogue this can also work—a Samurai who has served the faerie courts, maybe? There are a lot of flavorful options here!

The Holy Avenger
Spells Class: Cleric
Cantrips: Light, Word of Radiance
Spell: Guiding Bolt/Shield of Faith
Good for: Any non-Cleric who could use a few more options both in and out of battle. Even more useful in a party where not everyone has darkvision. If you could use more AC, go with Shield of Faith; if you want to make your Rogue happy, go with Guiding Bolt.

The Priest/ess
Spells Class: Cleric
Cantrips: Guidance, Spare the Dying/Toll the Dead
Spell: Ceremony
Good for: Anyone who wants to be an ordained minister. Congratulations!

The Minor Bloodline
Spells Class: Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Mending/Minor Illusion
Spell: Disguise Self
Good for: Rogues, mainly. Especially Rogues that have a boosted Charisma stat. Kensei Monks can also get a surprising amount of mileage out of this. Booming blade them and then either run or try to force them to move! And Battle Master Fighters could probably do the same thing with their maneuvers and extra attacks...

The Elemental Bloodline
Spells Class: Sorcerer
Cantrips: any two elemental cantrips of your choice
Spell: Absorb Elements
Good for: Any non-Sorcerer class, really. You can choose utility cantrips, ranged cantrips, close-up cantrips, or any mix of those three, depending on your build, and absorb elements is a great spell for anyone to have up their sleeve. This could be especially flavorful on a genasi, but not significantly moreso than any other character. A kobold that has a little cold ability because of their heritage, or a dwarf that's somehow picked up some slight control over fire because of their forge deep in a volcanic mountain? Or just a human whose genie heritage is too dormant to have quite been a genasi.

The Vision of Death
Spells Class: Warlock OR Wizard
Cantrips: Infestation, Toll the Dead
Spell: Cause Fear/Hex
Good for: Anyone who'd benefit from Pact Warrior, or anyone who wants their enemies to flee them. Could be a flavorful option for a Shadow Monk or Shadow Sorcerer if you go the hex route—it even works on a Warlock, since the class is so starved for spells. Can also be great if someone else on your team has booming blade, since you can then try to force them to move with either infestation or cause fear.

The Wizard's Apprentice
Spells Class: Wizard
Cantrips: Prestidigitation, any other Wizard cantrip (I'd suggest Mage Hand or Minor Illusion, but any would work for personal flavor)
Spell: Find Familiar
Good for: Any non-spellcasting class. Yes, even Barbarians, since you can easily get by with using both your cantrips for out-of-combat utility. The idea is basically that you have only minor magical aptitude, not enough to actually even-one-level-dip into Wizard, but enough to have the tiniest handful of things you can do.

[Pex]

A wizard or non-Draconic sorcerer could take the feat for two more Cantrips they like and Mage Armor for their 1st level spell so they don't need to use a spell slot for it. Variant Human has it easiest for this tactic. A Moon Druid might want it too.

[Crgaston]

Speaking of XGtE, Control Flames is now mechanically useful on a Gloom Stalker build for extinguishing torches and activating the “invisible to darkvision” feature.

[DeShurland]

Very noob question and hopefully in the right place.

I am a lvl 4 fighter focusing on Battlemaster, with high strength, high constitution and high charisma. I initially took the ability score improvement to strength @ lvl 4, but I am thinking of changing it over to the Magic Initiate feat (Only played one session since leveling up)

I am not interested in 'attack' spells, I have a battleaxe for that, and Battlemaster commands. Instead I am thinking things like minor illusion, prestidigitation, and find familiar/disguise self.

What I was not sure on was the spell casting ability side of things.

My charisma mod is +2
Intelligence mod is 0

If i go down the wizard route, how would that work? I understand the principles, 8 + prof bonus (2) = 10. But I am not attacking anything, I would be doing some of the following;
- Minor illusion is for messing around with, empty chest fill with gold. create a hole, place illusion over top.
- Prestid. My char brews beer, i can turn water into beer. warm up food, make awful food taste nice (i wouldn't been seen dead in a dirty place) sparks when intimidating people, nice smells etc.
- Find familiar. As Battlemaster, having a hawk would be very cool. or any pet really.

Sorry if vague etc.

[DarkKnightJin]

Very noob question and hopefully in the right place.

I am a lvl 4 fighter focusing on Battlemaster, with high strength, high constitution and high charisma. I initially took the ability score improvement to strength @ lvl 4, but I am thinking of changing it over to the Magic Initiate feat (Only played one session since leveling up)

I am not interested in 'attack' spells, I have a battleaxe for that, and Battlemaster commands. Instead I am thinking things like minor illusion, prestidigitation, and find familiar/disguise self.

What I was not sure on was the spell casting ability side of things.

My charisma mod is +2
Intelligence mod is 0

If i go down the wizard route, how would that work? I understand the principles, 8 + prof bonus (2) = 10. But I am not attacking anything, I would be doing some of the following;
- Minor illusion is for messing around with, empty chest fill with gold. create a hole, place illusion over top.
- Prestid. My char brews beer, i can turn water into beer. warm up food, make awful food taste nice (i wouldn't been seen dead in a dirty place) sparks when intimidating people, nice smells etc.
- Find familiar. As Battlemaster, having a hawk would be very cool. or any pet really.

Sorry if vague etc.

Prestidigitation and Find Familiar are always useful.
And if the DM allows it: Booming Blade doesn't have any relation to your Int modifier, so you can use it to get a little stickier. Or at least dissuade sentient enemies from goin' anywhere.
Minor Illusion is also a useful one. I'd grab something that doesn't need a save or attack roll keyed off of Int.
Light is also always a useful one to have.

[JackPhoenix]

I was thinking about an army who trains their officers and specialists in the use of magic. Here are some "training packages"

The Officer (wizard)
Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Message
Spell: Find Familiar
Purpose of this training is battlefield communication. Dancing Lights can be used for longer range signalling, while Message allows for shorter range communication that the enemy can't eavesdrop to, or that can be used even in the noise of battle. Some kind of bird familiar may provide both communication (bringing messages over long distances) and better overview of the battlefield (literal bird's eye view). Raven is best for communication, because it can mimic noises, but owl is better for the "recon drone" role.

The Engineer (wizard)
Cantrips: Mending, Mold Earth
Spell: Fog Cloud
Mold Earth allows for a faster field work... trenches, foxholes, water channels, earthern ramparts... all is much faster than having a bunch of soldiers digging them with normal tools, and they would appreciate the break. Mending serves to maintain equipment and war machines, while Fog Cloud may provide cover (in a common sense of the word, not the mechanic term) from enemy archers and scouts.

The Mariner (druid)
Cantrips: Mending, either Control Flames or Shape Water
Spell: Create or Destroy Water
Damage control aboard ships. Mending repairs damage, Control Flame deals with unwanted (is there any other kind?) fires, and Shape Water and Create or Destroy Water help when the ship starts leaking. Shape Water can be used to freeze the water to plug any holes, while Create or Destroy Water removes any that gets in. The later can be also used to replenish supplies of fresh water.

The Interrogator (wizard)
Cantrips: Friends, pretty much anything, nothing especially stands out
Spell: either Charm Person or Comprehend Languages
The "good cop", if you can call mind control that. Charm the target for advantage on getting info from them, and understand any language they may use. Comprehend Languages may also help with coded documents.

[lt_murgen]

I've been messing around with Magic Initiate for adding flavor to my human variant tempest cleric:

The Raiden
Cantrips: Shocking grasp, lighting lure
Spell: Absorb Elements (lightning)

Forgo a weapon entirely and always have a free hand for casting. Pull enemies past your fighters and give them AoOs. Combine with channel divinity since they are all lightning attacks.

[Specter]

I've been messing around with Magic Initiate for adding flavor to my human variant tempest cleric:

The Raiden
Cantrips: Shocking grasp, lighting lure
Spell: Absorb Elements (lightning)

Forgo a weapon entirely and always have a free hand for casting. Pull enemies past your fighters and give them AoOs. Combine with channel divinity since they are all lightning attacks.

The pull from Lightning Lure doesn't provoke AoOs, since it's not voluntary movement. What you should use it for is to pull enemies away from your low AC buddies. Also, Tempest Clerics definitely want Booming Blade to make their melee attack fearsome.

[Stygofthedump]

Another use is to take your own class to increase spells known by 1 and cantrips and gain +1 LV 1 slot.
only useful for single class sorcerer really. (But they really need the spell picks!)

[KorvinStarmast]

If nothing else, you can use Mold Earth to write "TAGARIUS*, DESTROYER OF WORLDS, WAS HERE" on the ground in 20' letters whenever the party stops to rest.

* your character name doesn't have to be Tagarius. But even if it isn't, I suggest you still write "Tagarius, Destroyer of Worlds, was here", because it probably sounds cooler than your actual character's name. this is the correct answer. Go to the head of the class. :smallbiggrin:

[Derpldorf]

hmm... in the style of the thread

The Happy Camper
Spells Class: Druid
Cantrips: Mold Earth, Shape Water
Spell: Goodberry
Good for: Anyone

The Germaphobe
Spells Class: Wizard
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation
Spell: Unseen Servant
Good for: Do we really need this disgusting thing?! Its filthy! I am NOT touching that!

[JackPhoenix]

The Necromancer
Spell class: Forum Poster
Cantrips: Revive Dead Thread, Ignore Forum Rules
Spell: Recieve Warning?
Good for: nobody involved

[KorvinStarmast]

The Necromancer
Spell class: Forum Poster
Cantrips: Revive Dead Thread, Ignore Forum Rules
Spell: Recieve Warning?
Good for: nobody involved I was under the impression that guides were exempt from that. (Or does it have to be pinned?)

[JackPhoenix]

I was under the impression that guides were exempt from that. (Or does it have to be pinned?)

Only homebrew is, and only for the original poster. But it was a joke, even if necromancy is against the rules, it's not especially serious offense.

[thereaper]

Has anyone pointed out that Thaumaturgy can be used to open trapped doors from a safe distance?

[Aaron Underhand]

Have to comment about the grading of Acid Splash - It is a pseudo AoE, as it can hit two adjacent targets.

Recently made a vHuman Ranger with MI:Druid for Shillelagh, Magic stone and Absorb Elements - Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10... going Wis 18 at 4th and multiclassing into Cleric at 6th. After that may get Spell sniper - Thorn whip just for laughs....