Kusari-gama TWF Tripper

[WeaselGuy]

So, once again, I'm bored at work (waiting on servers to isntall) and decided to kill time on thought exercise builds. Today's menu consists of a Kusari-gama TWF Tripper!

So, my group plays with assigned stats of 12, 13, 14, 16, 16, 18, arranged however we like, before racial bonuses. We do not use LA buyoff, typically start around level 3, have just about every book available (except Dragon Magazine (Dragon Compendium is allowed though)) and play 3.0/3.5, no PF, minimal errata. This is what I have so far:



Attribute

Score



Stength

16



Dexterity

16



Constitution

18



Intelligence

14



Wisdom

13



Charisma

12






Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Fighter

1

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes



2

Fighter

2

Bonus Feat

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama)



3

Fighter

3


Two-Weapon Fighting



4

Fighter

4

Bonus Feat

Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



5

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

5

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day




6

Wolf Totem Barbarian

6

Improved Trip

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting



7

Exotic Weapon Master

7

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)




8

Exotic Weapon Master

8

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting)




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Knock-Down




So, basically, what I need to know is the following:


What LA 0 race should I look at?
What should I do for the last 11 levels of this build?


Any other thoughts or advice is more than welcome.

[Twurps]

For races: if you go human you qualify for the 'Jotunbrud' feat (RoF 166). This allows you to consider yourself large for checks where this is beneficial to you. (so +4 to trip attempts)

Personally: I like Goliath better. It has +4 strenght racial bonus, and can be combined with the mountain rage ACF (races of stone). Have a powerfull build all day long, and actually turn large when you rage. It's +1LA though.

1 level of monk would be an option for the 'decisive strike' ACF. Take only 1 attack as a full round action, but in return: Double your damage for that attack, and all other attacks (AoO's) that round. Very nice in AoO build. It would require an alignment shift somewhere in your career however.

Depending on what power level your aiming for: If there's ever a build to take more fighter levels, this is it. There's a lot of feats that can benefit you (Robilar's gambit, double hit, karmic strike, defensive sweep, side step, deft opportunist, just to name a few). And level 12 and level 16 have ACF's for fighters in the PHII that fit nicely with this build (counterattack and overpowering attack respectively)

A bit higher on the power scale: Dip crusader, if only for the thicket of blades stance. (Take AoO if your oponent takes any movement, including 5ft steps!, combine with defensive sweep to have guaranteed AoO's)

Any ways of getting additional reach are nice too, but I'm not very into that, so I'll leave that for others. (if they haven't already..)

[Aleolus]

Definitely human for the race. That will let you take Exotic Weap Prof at level one, bumping your feat progression up a stage

[Flickerdart]

Why are you picking up Combat Expertise? The barbarian gets Improved Trip without needing to meet prerequisites. This also lets you move your feat schedule up quite a bit. Start with barbarian 2, then go fighter to pick up EWP and Knock-down at level 3, then take TWF at level 4 with another level of fighter, and then stop taking fighter levels because fighter is lame. I mean, Weapon Focus?

[WeaselGuy]

Why are you picking up Combat Expertise? The barbarian gets Improved Trip without needing to meet prerequisites. This also lets you move your feat schedule up quite a bit. Start with barbarian 2, then go fighter to pick up EWP and Knock-down at level 3, then take TWF at level 4 with another level of fighter, and then stop taking fighter levels because fighter is lame. I mean, Weapon Focus?

Combat Expertise was because I had it written in before thinking of wolf totem. Weapon Focus is to get into Exotic Weapon Master.
So, should I do something more like this:


Using the Bonus Feat from Human for the second level 1 feat.



Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Combat Reflexes



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down



4

Fighter

4

Bonus Feat

Two-Weapon Fighting



5

Fighter

5





6

Fighter

6

Bonus Feat

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



7

Exotic Weapon Master

7

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)




8

Exotic Weapon Master

8

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting)




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Extra Rage

[Xervous]

Exotic weapons master is poo. 3 Levels plus a feat and you hardly get anything out of it. Throwing 3 levels at crusader would net you thicket of blades for more AoOs plus a bunch of other neat things and that's just off the top of my head.

Also, swap the strength and con scores, strength is giving you to hit, damage, and trip whereas con is just a smidge more HP.

[daremetoidareyo]

Combat Expertise was because I had it written in before thinking of wolf totem. Weapon Focus is to get into Exotic Weapon Master.
So, should I do something more like this:


Using the Bonus Feat from Human for the second level 1 feat.



Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Combat Reflexes



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down



4

Fighter

4

Bonus Feat

Two-Weapon Fighting



5

Fighter

5





6

Fighter

6

Bonus Feat

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



7

Exotic Weapon Master

7

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)




8

Exotic Weapon Master

8

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting)




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Extra Rage





what happened to your 3rd level feat?

[Flickerdart]

It looks like you haven't allocated your 1st level fighter bonus feat.

[WeaselGuy]

Exotic weapons master is poo. 3 Levels plus a feat and you hardly get anything out of it. Throwing 3 levels at crusader would net you thicket of blades for more AoOs plus a bunch of other neat things and that's just off the top of my head.

Also, swap the strength and con scores, strength is giving you to hit, damage, and trip whereas con is just a smidge more HP.

The Strength and Constitution scores are interchangeable, I just had them set up like that in the event of there being a decent alternative race for min-maxing my ability scores.

I like EWM for this build because of the stunts. Exotic Reach lets my AoO's ignore all but total cover. Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting lowers my TWF penalties by 1, which when combined with Weapon Focus, removes the penalties to Two-Weapon Fighting. And finally, Trip Attack gives me an untyped +2 bonus to trip attempts, straight up.

Now, to consider, I do have 11 levels to work with after this, and I agree that Crusader is a great class for martial characters. Should I just go 11 straight levels of Crusader? If so, what stances and maneuvers should I look at, as well as what feats to take for the remainder of that build?


what happened to your 3rd level feat?


It looks like you haven't allocated your 1st level fighter bonus feat.

Good catch, appreciate it! Something like this then?




Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Combat Reflexes



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



4

Fighter

4

Bonus Feat

Two-Weapon Fighting



5

Full BAB Class

5

???



6

Full BAB Class

6

???

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting



7

Exotic Weapon Master

7

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)




8

Exotic Weapon Master

8

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting)




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Extra Rage





Perhaps adding back in those 2 levels of Fighter, to take Combat Reflexes at 6, and take Jotunbrud as my Human Bonus Feat at level 1?

[daremetoidareyo]

Wolf berzerker from unapproachable east gives you a +4 on trip attempts while raging.


EDIT: Your new table looks a lot better.

Looking at exotic weapon master, I have to concur on opting for a different arrangement. Removing a -1 to each attack, a +2 to trip attempts, and getting around an opponent's cover seems less optimized than going fighter for those three levels. Getting your size up helps with both reach and modifiers.

1. whirlpounce barb: Jotunbrud, exotic weapon pro
2. wolf barb: improved trip
3: HnR fighter: combat reflexes, knock down
4: fighter: 2 weapon fightin
5: fighter (why not a zhentarim level for this dead level) or go warblade here
6: warblade: wolf berzerker
7: ronin or anything better: SA damage on fallen opponents
8: ronin or anything better: although banzai charge is sweet (AC based Power Attack)

I like warblade, but that has a lot of my baggage against crusader being all paladin like...and I still revile paladins.

[WeaselGuy]

Wolf berzerker from unapproachable east gives you a +4 on trip attempts while raging.


EDIT: Your new table looks a lot better.

Looking at exotic weapon master, I have to concur on opting for a different arrangement. Removing a -1 to each attack, a +2 to trip attempts, and getting around an opponent's cover seems less optimized than going fighter for those three levels. Getting your size up helps with both reach and modifiers.

1. whirlpounce barb: Jotunbrud, exotic weapon pro
2. wolf barb: improved trip
3: HnR fighter: combat reflexes, knock down
4: fighter: 2 weapon fightin
5: fighter (why not a zhentarim level for this dead level) or go warblade here
6: warblade: wolf berzerker
7: ronin or anything better: SA damage on fallen opponents
8: ronin or anything better: although banzai charge is sweet (AC based Power Attack)

I like warblade, but that has a lot of my baggage against crusader being all paladin like...and I still revile paladins.


Wolf Berserker does look nice, but wouldn't the region requirement conflict with Jotunbrud's?
My work computer won't let me pull up Zhentarim Fighter, what does it get me? Also, would Zhentarim conflict with Rashemen/Damara?
Probably wouldn't take Ronin past 2 for Banzai Charge, it is pretty sweet, but Ronin also comes with the feat tax of EWP (Bastard Sword)...

[daremetoidareyo]

adaptive weapon from warblade level 1 allows you to switch exotic weapon proficiency to anything you want it to be on any given day. I concur, Ronan is a two-level dip class. you can swap jotenbrud for powerful build which i think is in the Dragonlance campaign setting if that's allowed

[Flickerdart]

You can get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand, if you have the gold.

As for full-BAB classes, let's see. Half-orc Paragon will give you a 1/day Rage, but you have to be a half-orc. Ranger will give you FE: Arcanists and TWF as a bonus feat (so you can take something else on your fighter level).

[OldTrees1]

I like EWM for this build because of the stunts. Exotic Reach lets my AoO's ignore all but total cover. Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting lowers my TWF penalties by 1, which when combined with Weapon Focus, removes the penalties to Two-Weapon Fighting. And finally, Trip Attack gives me an untyped +2 bonus to trip attempts, straight up.

Now, to consider, I do have 11 levels to work with after this, and I agree that Crusader is a great class for martial characters. Should I just go 11 straight levels of Crusader? If so, what stances and maneuvers should I look at, as well as what feats to take for the remainder of that build?

Exotic Reach is great for covering a weakness of AoO builds. However Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting and Trip Attack are nothing to write about(one being the same strength as a weak feat and the other being half as strong as the weak half of a good feat). If you see something tempting that costs 13 levels rather than the 11 you have left, you should consider dropping those two exotic tricks.


Since you have an AoO/Full Attack based character, ToB classes are trickier to synergize with. You primarily want passive constant abilities and swift action easily recharged abilities. So this leaves you with stances, and swift action maneuvers from Crusader(timed recharge) and/or Warblade(swift action + full attack to recharge).

Thicket of Blades(3rd lvl Crusader stance)
Shield Block(2nd lvl Crusader immediate action maneuver, does not need a shield)
Defensive Rebuke(3rd lvl Crusader swift action maneuver)
White Raven Tactics(3rd lvl Crusader/Warblade swift action maneuver, the DM should decide how much to nerf it)
Moment of Perfect Mind/Action Before Thought/Mind Over Body(1st/2nd/3rd lvl Warblade immediate action maneuvers)
Sudden Leap(1st lvl Warblade swift action maneuver)

I believe you can get all of this with 1 level of Crusader(after 8th level) and 2 levels of Warblade(after 4th and 7th levels respectively).
Warblade 1: [Tiger Claw Stance] -> Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind -> Action Before Thought
Warblade 2: Mind Over Body
Crusader 1: Shield Block -> Defensive Rebuke -> Thicket of Blades Stance, [White Raven Maneuver] -> White Raven Tactics, [Extra Maneuver]
Since most of the maneuvers/stances that best fit your fighting style can be gained in very few levels, I don't think you should use them to fill all 11 remaining levels.

[WeaselGuy]

You can get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand, if you have the gold.

As for full-BAB classes, let's see. Half-orc Paragon will give you a 1/day Rage, but you have to be a half-orc. Ranger will give you FE: Arcanists and TWF as a bonus feat (so you can take something else on your fighter level).

I don't like relying on magic items for feats. Ranger 2 isn't a bad idea though.




Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Jotunbrud



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



4

Fighter

4

Bonus Feat

Combat Reflexes



5

Ranger

5

Favored Enemy (Arcanists), Track, Wild Empathy




6

Ranger

6

Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting



7

Exotic Weapon Master

7

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)




8

Exotic Weapon Master

8

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting)




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Extra Rage

[Aleolus]

I'm sorry, I just cannot read this thread without picturing Kohaku, Sango's little brother from Inuyasha

[Flickerdart]

Looks like a pretty good gig, though for obvious reasons you may want to use only a single Kusari-gama until you reach level 6, which is a few levels later than your previous build.

[WeaselGuy]

Exotic Reach is great for covering a weakness of AoO builds. However Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting and Trip Attack are nothing to write about(one being the same strength as a weak feat and the other being half as strong as the weak half of a good feat). If you see something tempting that costs 13 levels rather than the 11 you have left, you should consider dropping those two exotic tricks.


Since you have an AoO/Full Attack based character, ToB classes are trickier to synergize with. You primarily want passive constant abilities and swift action easily recharged abilities. So this leaves you with stances, and swift action maneuvers from Crusader(timed recharge) and/or Warblade(swift action + full attack to recharge).

Thicket of Blades(3rd lvl Crusader stance)
Shield Block(2nd lvl Crusader immediate action maneuver, does not need a shield)
Defensive Rebuke(3rd lvl Crusader swift action maneuver)
White Raven Tactics(3rd lvl Crusader/Warblade swift action maneuver, the DM should decide how much to nerf it)
Moment of Perfect Mind/Action Before Thought/Mind Over Body(1st/2nd/3rd lvl Warblade immediate action maneuvers)
Sudden Leap(1st lvl Warblade swift action maneuver)

I believe you can get all of this with 1 level of Crusader(after 8th level) and 2 levels of Warblade(after 4th and 7th levels respectively).
Warblade 1: [Tiger Claw Stance] -> Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind -> Action Before Thought
Warblade 2: Mind Over Body
Crusader 1: Shield Block -> Defensive Rebuke -> Thicket of Blades Stance, [White Raven Maneuver] -> White Raven Tactics, [Extra Maneuver]
Since most of the maneuvers/stances that best fit your fighting style can be gained in very few levels, I don't think you should use them to fill all 11 remaining levels.




Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Jotunbrud



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



4

Warblade

4

Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude





5

Ranger

5

Favored Enemy (Arcanists), Track, Wild Empathy




6

Ranger

6

Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting



7

Warblade

7

Uncanny Dodge




8

Crusader

8

Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Exotic Reach)

Extra Granted Maneuver




and pray whatever DM sees this doesn't enfore multiclass xp penalties (ours doesn't, thankfully)

[Flickerdart]

and pray whatever DM sees this doesn't enfore multiclass xp penalties (ours doesn't, thankfully)

That build does not incur any multiclass penalties. All your levels are within 1 of each other.

Also, you should probably find some way to get Combat Reflexes back.

[WeaselGuy]

That build does not incur any multiclass penalties. All your levels are within 1 of each other.

Also, you should probably find some way to get Combat Reflexes back.

Good point... Should amend that to "pray they don't hate dips" lol... And yeah... Combat Reflexes definitely seems like a must have in an AoO build, but where to fit it in?

[OldTrees1]

Level

Class

BAB

Class Features

Feats



1

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

1

Pounce, Illiteracy, Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-gama), Jotunbrud



2

Wolf Totem Barbarian

2

Improved Trip




3

Fighter

3

Hit and Run Tactics, Bonus Feat

Knock-Down, Weapon Focus (Kusari-gama)



4

Warblade

4

Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude





5

Ranger

5

Favored Enemy (Arcanists), Track, Wild Empathy




6

Ranger

6

Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting



7

Warblade

7

Uncanny Dodge




8

Crusader

8

Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5




9

Exotic Weapon Master

9

Exotic Weapon Stunt (Trip Attack)

Extra Granted Maneuver




and pray whatever DM sees this doesn't enfore multiclass xp penalties (ours doesn't, thankfully)

No, the crusader and warblade levels need to be after the stated levels (after 4/7/8 means 5/8/9 at the earliest). This is important to select the higher (2nd and 3rd) level maneuvers.
So Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 / Warblade 1 / Ranger +1 / Exotic Weapon Master(Exotic Reach) 1 / Warblade +1 / Crusader 1
Coincidentally this has 0% multiclass penalty until you reach 3rd level in a base class.

I really suggest keeping Exotic Reach as your first Exotic Stunt.

You can get Combat Reflexes back by delaying Improved Two Weapon Fighting until 9th and dropping Extra Granted Maneuver(you don't need it with this maneuver set unless you rely on spamming White Raven Tactics).

[Flickerdart]

I would replace Warblade with a second level of Fighter. The things it gives you are shiny, but it's better to round out your fundamentals first and go for shinies later.

[Aleolus]

No, he would have to hit level 4 in one class and 3 in another. Since his race is Human, his highest class doesn't count for xp penalty. I multiple classes are tied for highest, none of them count

[Flickerdart]

Also PrCs don't count, so as long as the PC takes only one base class past 3rd, he should be okay.