Two weapon fighting Fighter questions.

[Cranthis]

In your opinion, or in your mathematical facts, when making a two weapon fighter, is it better to stay straight fighter, or take the two weapon warrior archetype?
Does it make a difference between using a double weapon or two fully separate weapon?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if the woodchuck could chuck wood?
Does anyone know of any good double weapon feats? I haven't been able to find much.

[Geddy2112]

For lower levels, normal fighter generally beats out two weapon warrior. Weapon and armor training are better than the situational twin blades and defensive flurry. Doublestrike is absolute garbage; as I read it, you don't get anything because you can make an attack with a primary and secondary weapon as a standard action already...

However, at level 11 two weapon warriors get improved balance, which lets you use one handed weapons in your off hand as light weapons and reduces the penalty to TWF fight by 1 for each hand. Getting an AoO with both at level 13 is nice, and having perfect balance to take no penalty to TWF at 15 is amazing. Deft doublestrike is okay if you have disarming/tripping or sundering weapons, and deadly defense is great.

I think it is worth it to take two weapon warrior if your game will go past level 10, otherwise just TWF as stock fighter. Using a double weapon is fine, but most builds can dual shortsword for more damage(and good crit range). Some double weapons do as good of damage or better but most of those are exotic. A two weapon warrior can upgrade to 1 handed weapons and pair longswords or scimitars or something really nasty.

The twf feat box is generally:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Weapon focus(whatever paired weapon you chose, generally s. sword)
Improved critical(optional but commonly taken)

Then it is up to you.

[Florian]

In your opinion, or in your mathematical facts, when making a two weapon fighter, is it better to stay straight fighter, or take the two weapon warrior archetype?
Does it make a difference between using a double weapon or two fully separate weapon?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if the woodchuck could chuck wood?
Does anyone know of any good double weapon feats? I haven't been able to find much.

It will mistly come down to how you plan to mitigate incoming damage.

The Two Weapon Warrior basically needs two identical weapons (or one doubleweapon) and is easy on the feats, as one feat is always for both weapons. You'll negate the TWF penalty very fast, so it's an option to dual-wield one-handed weapons, like scimitars or katanas w/o problems. You don't need Vital Strike, but you'll end up with pretty low AC. Mitigation can be done via the Stalwart chain, as this archetype acrues Dodge Boni fast.

The regular Fighter is better at Sword n Board TWFing, which will be quite feat intensive at times, but will offer more triggered bonus attacks later on, piling on more raw damage. As it keeps both, weapon and armor training, it can use the Advanced features foind in weapon/armor master handbook.

[Secret Wizard]

The best Two-Weapon Fighter archetype is the Dawnflower Dervish. I used to run a TWF cestus and shield Dawnflower Dervish that was doing really well.

The thing that makes it so good is the ability to full-attack after a move. Plus, it's abilities to ignore difficult terrain come extra handy... not to mention the extra free attack it gets at 15!

Here's a sample build, not focusing too much on skills (though my build was made to actually have good skills):


Human
20 pt. buy attributes: STR 15, DEX 16+2, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CH7
Traits: Defender of Society, Seeker
Skills: Max perception, some points on Climb, Ride, Swim, Sense Motive
Pips: +1 STR, rest to DEX


Feats
1. Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Double Slice
3. Iron Will
4. Weapon Specialization
5. Advanced Weapon Training > Armed Bravery
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Power Attack
8. Improved Critical
9. Greater Weapon Focus, Advanced Weapon Training > Trained Grace
10. Improved Initiative
11. Two-Weapon Rend
12. Greater Weapon Specialization
13. Advanced Weapon Training > Focus Weapon, Advanced Weapon Training > Fighter's Reflexes
14. Penetrating Strike
15. Cut from the Air
16. Greater Penetrating Strike
17. Combat Reflexes, Advanced Weapon Training > Weapon Mastery > Spellcut
18. Smash from the Air
19. Staggering Critical
20. Stunning Critical

PS: Any fighter that gives up Weapon Training loses now. Two-Weapon Warrior is obsolete.

[AZGrowler]

For lower levels, normal fighter generally beats out two weapon warrior. Weapon and armor training are better than the situational twin blades and defensive flurry. Doublestrike is absolute garbage; as I read it, you don't get anything because you can make an attack with a primary and secondary weapon as a standard action already...


I'm not sure this part is true. I think, based on what I read, a standard attack is one attack with one weapon. You need to full attack to be able to use your off-hand weapon, or have the Doublestrike feature. This makes the two weapon warrior more mobile than most other dual wielding options, if only slightly (and assuming the other option doesn't have pounce or a pounce like feature like the Dawnflower Dervish).

The other big draw for this archetype is the ability to use bigger weapons with less penalty.

[Florian]

For lower levels, normal fighter generally beats out two weapon warrior. Weapon and armor training are better than the situational twin blades and defensive flurry. Doublestrike is absolute garbage; as I read it, you don't get anything because you can make an attack with a primary and secondary weapon as a standard action already...

Nope, you can't. Doublestrike so far is the only ability that let's you do that. The clue here is, that it also allow for Two-Weapon Rend to trigger along that attack.

Other builds must work with a combination of Vital Strike and "triggers" (Extra attack on a crit) like Bashing Finish to get the same effect of, but then will top Doublestrike with ease.

[Serafina]

Never ever trade away Weapon Training, especially if you want to use low-damage weapons (such as one-handed ones and especially light ones).

Instead, you should take Advanced Weapon Training (right at level 5 for a feat) and take Focused Weapon.
This will upgrade your weapons damage to 1D8. That's already a +1 average damage.
5 levels later, it'll be a 1D10 (+2). 5 levels after that, a 2D6 (+3.5). It caps out at 2D8 (+4.5).

At level 9, you can easily pick up any two feats by taking Weapon Specialist. Taking Greater Weapon Focus offsets the difference int attack rolls that'd be caused by Improved Balance - and due to improved damage dice, you don't care about wielding non-light weapons.
At level 10, you can take another Advanced Weapon Training and take Weapon Specialist again. Two feats for the price of one.

At level 13, you get another Advanced Weapon Training. Plus your previous Weapon Specialists now both give three feats - that's six extra feats.

Though of course you can pick up other nice things with Advanced Weapon Training too.
Armed Bravery for +3 to Will Saves?
Fighters Reflexes for +5 to Reflex Saves?
Fighting with Weapon Finesse, and didn't take a feat to apply Dex to Damage? You now get another +5 to damage via Trained Grace.
Trained Initiative for +5 to Initiative ain't bad either.
Or Weapon Sacrifice to prevent yourself or an adjacent ally from getting killed by damage five times per day.
Oh, and that all improves as you level too.

A Fighter with an Archetype that doesn't trade away Weapon Training can take up to seven of those options. A Fighter who does gets nothing.

[Geddy2112]

I'm not sure this part is true. I think, based on what I read, a standard attack is one attack with one weapon. You need to full attack to be able to use your off-hand weapon, or have the Doublestrike feature.


Nope, you can't. Doublestrike so far is the only ability that let's you do that

Yeah I was totally wrong about not needing a full round action to TWF. So doublestrike is fairly good, and makes the two weapon warrior come on slightly earlier. Still better to be getting into a pounce or similar effect.

[Secret Wizard]

Doublestrike only comes online by level 9th though, and Dawnflower Dervish gets its minipounce at level 11th, so I don't think it's much of a contest...

[Cranthis]

This was very helpful, thanks guys.
I dont know wherd you found "Dawnflower Dervish" though. I found Dervish of the Dawn, which im 100% certain is the same thing.

[Secret Wizard]

It is. The name was changed in d20pfsrd for copyright reasons. You can find real names in Archives of Nethys (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Fighter%20Qadira%2 0%20Dawnflower%20Dervish).

[Florian]

Doublestrike only comes online by level 9th though, and Dawnflower Dervish gets its minipounce at level 11th, so I don't think it's much of a contest...

Bashing Finish comes online at BAB11, too. The barbarians Beast Totem line gives Pounce at 10th level. So this seems to be the "magic zone" for these kind of abilities.


This was very helpful, thanks guys.
I dont know wherd you found "Dawnflower Dervish" though. I found Dervish of the Dawn, which im 100% certain is the same thing.

That's a thing with Golarion-specific stuff and d20pfsrd. They tend to rename everything that is more tied to the setting (i.e. Inner Sea X, X of Golarion, and so on) unlike stuff from more more generic sources (Ultimate X).

Edit: In this case, it is due to being tied to a specific region (Qadira) and a religious cult (Sarenrae).

[Psyren]

Yeah, Dervish of Dawn wins as it gets the Mobile Fighter's pounce without giving up Weapon Training, thus allowing you to take AWT options.

If your GM prefers non-Golarion stuff though, Mobile Fighter is in APG so it might be a bit easier to clear.

[Edgar Snow]

I don't think this will be much help, but is TWF with a big 2 handed weapon and Armor spikes as popular/useful in PF as it is in 3.5, at least as far as a Str build is concerned?

[Psyren]

I don't think this will be much help, but is TWF with a big 2 handed weapon and Armor spikes as popular/useful in PF as it is in 3.5, at least as far as a Str build is concerned?

Nope, (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9) they specifically killed that one.

[grarrrg]

I don't think this will be much help, but is TWF with a big 2 handed weapon and Armor spikes as popular/useful in PF as it is in 3.5, at least as far as a Str build is concerned?Nope, (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9) they specifically killed that one.

TWF and Armor Spikes? No.
TWF and headbutt? Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder)
TWF and kick them? Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/blade-boot)

[Psyren]

TWF and Armor Spikes? No.
TWF and headbutt? Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder)
TWF and kick them? Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/blade-boot)

Blade Boot yes, because it specifically lets you off-hand with it, but the boulder is less certain.

[thecrimsondawn]

Just a reminder if you are using the path of war book, you can take a feat line that will grant you quite a few moves and stances that negate the need for many feats. If this is allowed in your game/build, then the question becomes what moves to supplement or replace feat options.

[Xerlith]

Can't you dip Monk and use unarmed strikes as your off-hand weapon?

[Cranthis]

Can't you dip Monk and use unarmed strikes as your off-hand weapon?

You could also use a fighter feat to take unarmed strike as well.

Edit: and if you're going to do that, you might as well take 2 monk levels.

[Xerlith]

You could also use a fighter feat to take unarmed strike as well.

Edit: and if you're going to do that, you might as well take 2 monk levels.

Well, yea. Master of Many Styles Hungry Ghost Monk of the Sacred Mountain levels. Still awesome.

[Cranthis]

Well, yea. Master of Many Styles Hungry Ghost Monk of the Sacred Mountain levels. Still awesome.

That is a lot of stacking there.