Spell that gives divine grace

[ZhanStrider]

If I was going to make a spell that replicated the Paladin class ability "Divine Grace" what level spell would you say that should be?
Duration: 1 round per level

[fishyfishyfishy]

I wouldn't. That's way too good and overshadows other spells, like superior resistance, which give a static bonus. Gosh can you imagine a DMM Persist Cleric buffing their Cha and then using this? Why make it easier for T1 casters to dominate everything?

[Psyren]

7th-level. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-grace-of-the-champion) Maybe 6th if it only gives the Cha to saves.

[Chronos]

It's useless at 1 round per level, because you almost never know you're going to be rolling a save that soon in the future? And if you do know that, then there are almost always better ways to spend your limited time. On the other hand, with a long duration or persisted, it's overpowered, because full casters don't need yet another way to buff themselves.

For comparison, you might want to look up Ruin Delver's Fortune. It's an immediate action, making it usable, and it gives a few other effects, but it only lasts 1d4 rounds and only affects one of your three saves. Fourth level.

[Beheld]

1) You are giving an (effectively) untyped bonus to saves. Why are you doing this? There are already spells that give moral, resistance, and luck bonuses to saves, is there any (good) reason why you need to stack this spell with those? Or cast this spell instead of those?
2) You are giving a variable save bonus. The spell in question could give between a +1 bonus to all save, to +50 bonus to all saves. What level spell should that be? Well that depends, is the person casting it getting +1 or +50? Perhaps instead of giving yourself Divine Grace, you could make a spell that gives a bonus to saves? And that number could be reasonable for it's level, instead of trying to make a spell that is too powerful for it's level for some and too weak for others, and then having it only be cast by those it is too powerful for, and then being a broken spell.
3) 1/round per level duration spells are... generally bad. I understand that Greater Invis exists, and isn't really a spell that makes sense with any other duration, but 1/round per level spells are either too powerful when you have advanced knowledge and too weak when you don't or just right when you don't and super mega hyper too powerful when you do. Neither of those are good spells to make if you are making new spells. You should probably shoot for a spell that gives you a bonus to saves all the time, so that it works when you get surprise round ambushed by a death slaad, or for a reactive spell with an immediate action cast time, so that even though it doesn't work when you get ambushed by a death slaad, if your survive, you can use it reactively and the issue of combat actions spent on defense is negated.

TL;DR: A spell that gives Divine Grace for 1/round per level should be a 14th level spell, so that no one ever casts it, because it's inclusion in the game is not good. You can get a Resistance bonus of +6 all day at 6th level, you can get a Moral bonus of +2 for 10 minutes per level from a 3rd level slot, you can get +4 from a level 6 slot, though only 1 minute per level. You can get a +2 or +3 Luck bonus to the entire party for 1/round per level and other benefits with a 4th level spell.

So if your question is "What level spell should it be able to get a +9 bonus to my save that stacks with all other spells" the answer is 11th level, and if you follow that with "and it's going to be Persisted" the answer becomes 12th.

[AvatarVecna]

There's already a spell giving Cha to saves, and it only goves it to one save at a time...and has a limited duration.there's a feqt that gives Cha to all saves, but it doesn't last very long, takes an action to renew, and requires you to be evil. The existing slell should serve as a good benchmark.

[ZhanStrider]

1) You are giving an (effectively) untyped bonus to saves. Why are you doing this? There are already spells that give moral, resistance, and luck bonuses to saves, is there any (good) reason why you need to stack this spell with those? Or cast this spell instead of those?
2) You are giving a variable save bonus. The spell in question could give between a +1 bonus to all save, to +50 bonus to all saves. What level spell should that be? Well that depends, is the person casting it getting +1 or +50? Perhaps instead of giving yourself Divine Grace, you could make a spell that gives a bonus to saves? And that number could be reasonable for it's level, instead of trying to make a spell that is too powerful for it's level for some and too weak for others, and then having it only be cast by those it is too powerful for, and then being a broken spell.
3) 1/round per level duration spells are... generally bad. I understand that Greater Invis exists, and isn't really a spell that makes sense with any other duration, but 1/round per level spells are either too powerful when you have advanced knowledge and too weak when you don't or just right when you don't and super mega hyper too powerful when you do. Neither of those are good spells to make if you are making new spells. You should probably shoot for a spell that gives you a bonus to saves all the time, so that it works when you get surprise round ambushed by a death slaad, or for a reactive spell with an immediate action cast time, so that even though it doesn't work when you get ambushed by a death slaad, if your survive, you can use it reactively and the issue of combat actions spent on defense is negated.

TL;DR: A spell that gives Divine Grace for 1/round per level should be a 14th level spell, so that no one ever casts it, because it's inclusion in the game is not good. You can get a Resistance bonus of +6 all day at 6th level, you can get a Moral bonus of +2 for 10 minutes per level from a 3rd level slot, you can get +4 from a level 6 slot, though only 1 minute per level. You can get a +2 or +3 Luck bonus to the entire party for 1/round per level and other benefits with a 4th level spell.

So if your question is "What level spell should it be able to get a +9 bonus to my save that stacks with all other spells" the answer is 11th level, and if you follow that with "and it's going to be Persisted" the answer becomes 10th.

That's a very well thought out and explained response thanks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ruin Delver's Fortune is a 4th level spell that gives Cha to a save of your choice (using a rare bonus type) for a few rounds, but as an immediate action. The pattern generally seems to be that quick-casting short-duration spells are a level below the normal version-- see Swift Fly, for instance. On the other hand, RDF gives a secondary bonus, which... probably doesn't quite match the added power of all saves. So yeah, I'd say 5th level is pretty fair for an unusually-typed "Cha to all saves." You could probably bump that up to 6th level for an untyped bonus.

And come on, guys... I think we're overthinking the power here. There are lots of abilities that grant a second stat to saves. Ability modifiers tend to scale fairly well with level, even when you're focused on it. A 12th level Sorcerer getting his first 6th level is probably going to have what, a 26? 28? That's not much more than Superior Resistance's +6, and that one lasts 24 hours. Divine Grace is less likely to overlap with items, but way less applicable. And forget about Persist cheese. Persist cheese only matters if that's standard protocol at your table... and even then, you should be comparing it to other persist cheese, like Persistent Wraithstrike.

tl;dr: Somewhere in the 4th-6th range is about right, depending on the exact power level of your table.

[Beheld]

Ability modifiers tend to scale fairly well with level, even when you're focused on it. A 12th level Sorcerer getting his first 6th level is probably going to have what, a 26? 28? That's not much more than Superior Resistance's +6, and that one lasts 24 hours. Divine Grace is less likely to overlap with items, but way less applicable.

Uh... It applies to 100% of saves made during the duration (whatever that ends up being) Is only going to be used by people with really high Cha bonuses. And 100% stacks with your existing resistance bonus (which you can also have). Casting Superior Resistance gives you a dispellable +1 over wearing a cloak and importantly: resistance bonuses are already calculated into the math for enemy DCs, having Cha to your stats gives you +9 OR HIGHER. That's insane. It means that anything that was mathed out to be failed 50% of the time can only ever fail on natural 1.

And it leads right back into the problem with Charisma bonuses instead of flat bonuses. Is there any possible reason at all why a Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Spellscale who saved a Genie from death should have a +13 bonus to saves but a regular old spellscale sorcerer should "merely" have a +9?

What would be the benefit of that?

[AvatarVecna]

Uh... It applies to 100% of saves made during the duration (whatever that ends up being) Is only going to be used by people with really high Cha bonuses. And 100% stacks with your existing resistance bonus (which you can also have). Casting Superior Resistance gives you a dispellable +1 over wearing a cloak and importantly: resistance bonuses are already calculated into the math for enemy DCs, having Cha to your stats gives you +9 OR HIGHER. That's insane. It means that anything that was mathed out to be failed 50% of the time can only ever fail on natural 1.

And it leads right back into the problem with Charisma bonuses instead of flat bonuses. Is there any possible reason at all why a Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Spellscale who saved a Genie from death should have a +13 bonus to saves but a regular old spellscale sorcerer should "merely" have a +9?

What would be the benefit of that?

Stop the presses, this just in, breaking news: template-stacking with the intention of boosting a spellcasting base stat into the stratosphere is ridiculously overpowered! If only the people running a game had some way to ban template-stacking in general, or the specific overpowered templates that make it really ridiculous.

Any possible reason they should have it? Assuming the DM agreed to allow that ridiculous template-stacking in the first place, the possible reason is that there are multiple ways by RAW (and even in Core) for you to get Cha to all saves. If the DM had a problem with Cha-to-everything builds, they shouldn't have allowed somebody to play that ridiculously-OP template-stacking race.

EDIT: Saves are ridiculously easy to optimize, even if you've got nothing but straight bonuses (as opposed to extras like Evasion, Mettle, Steadfast Determination, the Pride domain, etc); I've built Cha-SAD characters that consistently had Cha to saves 6 times from various sources, as well as having virtually full casting based off Cha. It was a theoretical exercise because no DM would ever really allow it, because they're neither stupid nor insane.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Uh... It applies to 100% of saves made during the duration (whatever that ends up being) Is only going to be used by people with really high Cha bonuses. And 100% stacks with your existing resistance bonus (which you can also have). Casting Superior Resistance gives you a dispellable +1 over wearing a cloak and importantly: resistance bonuses are already calculated into the math for enemy DCs, having Cha to your stats gives you +9 OR HIGHER. That's insane. It means that anything that was mathed out to be failed 50% of the time can only ever fail on natural 1.

And it leads right back into the problem with Charisma bonuses instead of flat bonuses. Is there any possible reason at all why a Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Spellscale who saved a Genie from death should have a +13 bonus to saves but a regular old spellscale sorcerer should "merely" have a +9?

What would be the benefit of that?
I think it's good practice not to assume the sort of insane template-stacking "just happened to get wish through RP" build, first of all. The +5 cloak also probably won't make an appareance for quite a few levels after a 6th level spell. By the time we're realistically talking +9 or more (for a short duration spell, remember) blanket immunities are starting to settle over everything and balance is laughably bad. Seriously, this is a second level class ability.

[Jay R]

In general, I would go out of my way to build a spell that duplicates a class function only if that class overshadows spellcasters at high levels.

Since that is not the case, allowing spellcasters to duplicate the functions of other classes only makesthe imbalance between classes worse.

[LudicSavant]

Clerics already have Recitation (Luck), Conviction (Morale), Tyche's Touch (Sacred), and Superior Resistance (resistance) stacking with each other for huge save boosts (+18 to all saves). Plus some other stuff too. They need more now?

[AvatarVecna]

In general, I would go out of my way to build a spell that duplicates a class function only if that class overshadows spellcasters at high levels.

Since that is not the case, allowing spellcasters to duplicate the functions of other classes only makesthe imbalance between classes worse.

In fairness, spellcasters already have a lot of ways to boost saves, including ways to get Cha to saves; making another one isn't going to make things worse than it already is.


Clerics already have Recitation (Luck), Conviction (Morale), Tyche's Touch (Sacred), and Superior Resistance (resistance) stacking with each other for huge save boosts (+18 to all saves). Plus some other stuff too. They need more now?

That's great for clerics, but other casters might appreciate lots of ways to buff saves as well...and as stated above, there's already a way to get Cha to saves via spells, it just takes 3 5th lvl spells.

[Jack_Simth]

In fairness, spellcasters already have a lot of ways to boost saves, including ways to get Cha to saves; making another one isn't going to make things worse than it already is.



That's great for clerics, but other casters might appreciate lots of ways to buff saves as well...and as stated above, there's already a way to get Cha to saves via spells, it just takes 3 5th lvl spells.
There's actually a couple of ways. Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium), is Bard-4, Sor/Wiz-4... but it only lasts 1d4 rounds, and only applies to a single save per casting (however, it's an immediate action casting time, and each version has a rider effect).

Shapechange (9th for everything that gets it, or near enough) for a Nymph or Gloura (Underdark) will get you Charisma to saves and Charisma to AC (Deflection).

Ability Rip (Serpent Kingdoms, Sor/Wiz 7) on a Nymph or Gloura to trade a supernatural ability that you've gotten via some other spell will give you Charisma to saves and AC for hours/level.

(Improved) Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) can combine with Polymorph (Sor/Wiz 4) or Polymorph Any Object (Sor/Wiz/Trickery-8) to get a specific supernatural ability while polymorphed into that creature - so a Nymph or Gloura again nets Charisma to saves and AC.

[Spore]

Paladin 4/Cleric 7, req. LG alignment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-grace-of-the-champion

Paladin 2
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-grace

If Pathfinder is acceptable as an indicator.

[GilesTheCleric]

[snip]TL;DR: A spell that gives Divine Grace for 1/round per level should be a 14th level spell, so that no one ever casts it, because it's inclusion in the game is not good. You can get a Resistance bonus of +6 all day at 6th level, you can get a Moral bonus of +2 for 10 minutes per level from a 3rd level slot, you can get +4 from a level 6 slot, though only 1 minute per level. You can get a +2 or +3 Luck bonus to the entire party for 1/round per level and other benefits with a 4th level spell.

So if your question is "What level spell should it be able to get a +9 bonus to my save that stacks with all other spells" the answer is 11th level, and if you follow that with "and it's going to be Persisted" the answer becomes 12th.

OP, don't forget that Mystra has banned the use of 11th-level and higher spells after Karsus's use of an 12th level spell (Karsus's Avatar) that allowed him to literally steal the power of a god (Mystryl, in his case). If you're playing in a different setting then the rules might be different, but I think it's consensus that FR is the highest-power setting.

[Beheld]

OP, don't forget that Mystra has banned the use of 11th-level and higher spells after Karsus's use of an 12th level spell (Karsus's Avatar) that allowed him to literally steal the power of a god (Mystryl, in his case). If you're playing in a different setting then the rules might be different, but I think it's consensus that FR is the highest-power setting.

Uh... what? I think Greyhawk counts as the highest powered setting, and the entire point is that no one plays epic so it doesn't matter what level above 9 it is, which is why the entire point of my post was that spells should give level appropriate save bonuses of a specific bonus type. And that if that bonus type stacks with all the other bonuses to saves, and is a +9, that it shouldn't exist.

Just ask yourself "Should my sorcerer be allowed to cast a spell that makes him immune to all spells with a saving throw?" And if the answer you come up with is yes, then please tell me that, so I can not play with you, and if the answer you come up with is no, then don't make a spell that does that.

[GilesTheCleric]

Uh... what? I think Greyhawk counts as the highest powered setting, and the entire point is that no one plays epic so it doesn't matter what level above 9 it is, which is why the entire point of my post was that spells should give level appropriate save bonuses of a specific bonus type. And that if that bonus type stacks with all the other bonuses to saves, and is a +9, that it shouldn't exist.

Just ask yourself "Should my sorcerer be allowed to cast a spell that makes him immune to all spells with a saving throw?" And if the answer you come up with is yes, then please tell me that, so I can not play with you, and if the answer you come up with is no, then don't make a spell that does that.

I could be wrong about the highest-power setting. Epic spells and 10th level spells are different. I agreed with your post and the opinion of many of the other posters, so I didn't feel the need to retread it. I simply wanted the OP to have a point of comparison for 9th+ level spells.