I Want To Learn How To Play Dungeons And Dragons 3.5

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everybody. I want to learn how to play Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. I just thinking of playing a good-aligned drow. Perhaps a team of good-aligned drow. Where do I start?

[Aleolus]

You can do the good-drow if you want, but I will warn that since R. A. Salvatore started publishing his Drizz't books, that archtype has been done a million times at least.

That being said, if you do decide to go that route, then I would recommend playing to the Drow's racial strengths, which tend towards blending magic and melee combat (known among DnDers as a gish)

[Bartmanhomer]

I have thought about so many Drow characters to play.

Fighters:

Male Drow Pure Fighter
Female Drow Fighter/Cleric
Male Drow Fighter/Rogue
Female Drow Fighter/Wizard

Clerics:

Male Drow Cleric/Fighter
Female Drow Pure Cleric
Male Drow Cleric/Rogue
Female Drow Cleric/Wizard

Rogues:

Male Drow Rogue/Fighter
Female Drow Rogue/Cleric
Male Drow Pure Rogue
Female Drow Rogue/Wizard

Wizards:

Male Drow Wizard/Fighter
Female Drow Wizard/Cleric
Male Drow Wizard/Rogue
Female Drow Pure Wizard

[Seto]

Out of curiosity, how distinct is your female Drow Cleric/Wizard from your female Drow Wizard/Cleric ?

But honestly, if you want to "learn to play 3.5", the first thing that comes to mind is : read the Player's Handbook. It is, after all, designed to be players' starting place :)

[Telonius]

Have you played other editions of D&D besides 3.5, or other gaming systems? 3.5 is a pretty quirky system, very different from 2nd or 4th, so it would help to know where you're coming from to explain the differences.

[Bartmanhomer]

Out of curiosity, how distinct is your female Drow Cleric/Wizard from your female Drow Wizard/Cleric ?

But honestly, if you want to "learn to play 3.5", the first thing that comes to mind is : read the Player's Handbook. It is, after all, designed to be players' starting place :)

I don't know. I haven't even playing with them yet.


Have you played other editions of D&D besides 3.5, or other gaming systems? 3.5 is a pretty quirky system, very different from 2nd or 4th, so it would help to know where you're coming from to explain the differences.

No Never. And I brought the Dungeons and Dragons version 3.5 many years ago but I never play with them.

[Uncle Pine]

Hello and welcome to the boards and to 3.5 in general!

A couple of days ago another user posted a similar question to yours and received a lot of useful replies and links, so here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471619-Im-looking-for-someone-who-can-teach-me-how-to-play)'s a link in case you wanted to look at them and save some time.

Personally, I think there are two ways to learn the game:
1) Join a group of regulars or a new group with a seasoned Dungeon Master (the referee) and have the DM explain the basics to you as he or she usually does whenever he or she gets a new player. This will save you time and let you play your good drow character as soon as you can join a suitable group.
2) Read the "core books" (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide) front to back. A couple of times. Get a solid grasp of the basics yourself, found a group with you as the DM and play all the drows you want (since except for the players' characters you'll control everyone else)! This will look like a chore at the beginning, but being the DM can be really fun and rewarding if you do it right. Even though from my experience if you start as a DM you'll be stuck in that position forever. :smallbiggrin:

Either way, there's a whole book dedicated to drows called Drow of the Underdark full of nifty options for drow characters, so you'll probably want to look at that. Underdark is also worth a look in my opinion.

Godspeed!

[Troacctid]

One tip for you: if you want to play a Drow, make sure you read the rules for level adjustment, because Drow have a level adjustment of +2. This essentially means that a Drow character is always two levels below a regular Elf with the same xp total. It's a really nasty handicap, and Drow are considered highly underpowered because of it.

Half-Drow have no level adjustment, so you may find them more suitable, especially if you want to be good-aligned, since Half-Drow aren't as consistently evil as pure Drow.

[Edgar Snow]

Drow are not a good race to start with. I'd start with something from PH.

Best thing would be to find a group near you to teach you the basics. It's much easier to learn by doing than just reading.

Failing that, or in the meantime, try to understand the basic rules as well as you can. Make small sample encounters. Convince a friend to try it with you.

[Red Fel]

First: I find that the best way to learn a new system is to start with simplicity. Simple race, single class. It's not the most powerful or the most colorful, but it teaches you the basics. To pretentiously quote Nietzsche, "He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying."

As others have said, Drow have a Level Adjustment, and not enough power to justify it. Flavor, yes, but not the power you want. Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, these are standing. Drow are flying. Taking a single class, that's walking. Mixing multiple classes, that's flying. I'd advise against trying to fly so soon.

Second: On the subject of multiple classes, you are aware that there are more than four classes, right? You've listed Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. You have overlooked Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, and Sorcerer. (And Monk, but nobody would blame you.)

Given your interest in a complex race with a Level Adjustment, and your strange mixing of only four classes, I'm going to assume you have yet to read your PHB. I'd advise you to do so. Alternatively, there is an online System Resource Document (an easily navigable version can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/)) that contains the PHB, as well as several other useful texts. Read it, familarize yourself with the basic terms and concepts.

When you're ready, the next step is to find a local game. Most local gaming stores host some kind of game night, which is a great way to find players willing to teach a newcomer. Alternatively, these forums have a Play-by-Post (PbP) section where you can join new games, or games already in progress, and learn as you go. One of the best teachers is experience.

But first, stand and walk.

[Jeraa]

I would suggest not going for 3.5 D&D. Pathfinder is mostly the same set of rules (There are some differences), with the added benefit of still being in-print and actively supported. While there are still 3.5players, at this point there is probably more Pathfinder players.

If you want simplicity, go with 5e D&D.

[Malroth]

For your first character I'd reccomend a Sorcorer or Bard. Fighters, Monks and Rogues require significant system mastery to contribute well and while Wizards, Clerics and Druids are regarded as the most powerful options managing a prepared spell list is probably too difficult for a first timer.

[GilesTheCleric]

Welcome to the playground and 3.5. I'll voice my support of everyone else's suggestions, and also link you to a recent thread of someone who is in a similar situation, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471619-Im-looking-for-someone-who-can-teach-me-how-to-play). Perhaps that poster has found a good group to join and could get you in, even.

[thompur]

I might also recommend trying the social websites "Meetup" and/or "Warhorn". They are good places to find like-minded folks.
I'll also second the recommendation of trying Pathfinder. It's basically 3.5 with a few tweaks.
If you can't find a home game, Pathfinder Society (PFS), an organized game, might be a good place to start. It will get you started and teach you the basics, and it's a great way to find and organize home games. I'm in two home games myself, found through PFS. One is a 3.5 game, since a large percentage of Pathfinder players started with D&D 3.5.

Also, from where do you hail? There may be other playgrounders from your neck of the woods.
We're generally a friendly and helpful bunch! :smallsmile:

[Bartmanhomer]

First: I find that the best way to learn a new system is to start with simplicity. Simple race, single class. It's not the most powerful or the most colorful, but it teaches you the basics. To pretentiously quote Nietzsche, "He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying."

As others have said, Drow have a Level Adjustment, and not enough power to justify it. Flavor, yes, but not the power you want. Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, these are standing. Drow are flying. Taking a single class, that's walking. Mixing multiple classes, that's flying. I'd advise against trying to fly so soon.

Second: On the subject of multiple classes, you are aware that there are more than four classes, right? You've listed Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. You have overlooked Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, and Sorcerer. (And Monk, but nobody would blame you.)

Given your interest in a complex race with a Level Adjustment, and your strange mixing of only four classes, I'm going to assume you have yet to read your PHB. I'd advise you to do so. Alternatively, there is an online System Resource Document (an easily navigable version can be found that contains the PHB, as well as several other useful texts. Read it, familarize yourself with the basic terms and concepts.

When you're ready, the next step is to find a local game. Most local gaming stores host some kind of game night, which is a great way to find players willing to teach a newcomer. Alternatively, these forums have a Play-by-Post (PbP) section where you can join new games, or games already in progress, and learn as you go. One of the best teachers is experience.

But first, stand and walk.

Yes I'm aware there are more than four classes. The reason I choose these classes because I thought the four classes are more suitable and appropriate for my drow characters.

[Red Fel]

Yes I'm aware there are more than four classes. The reason I choose these classes because I thought the four classes are more suitable and appropriate for my drow characters.

Well, then it sounds like you already have a character concept. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

It's a good thing, because it's much easier to ask for help building a character if you already have some idea of what you want that character to do. (Although, if you describe what you want the character to do as four different things, it's not quite as helpful.)

It's a bad thing, because at this point the conversation diverges, and you have to decide which road you want it to take. Are you asking:
How do I play this game? A very reasonable question, but it means that your character idea becomes entirely irrelevant. Much like, if you were asking the basics of how to drive a car, the fact that you planned to drive a Ford would be mostly irrelevant to my answer.
How do I build and play this character? Also an excellent question, but it assumes that you have a working knowledge of how to play the game, first. If you don't, there will be a lot of running in circles.
So, before the thread goes any further, why don't you just say which it is you want, and we'll see if we can go from there, hm? Do you want to know how to play the game, or how to play this character?

[Ilikednd]

To start out, I wouldn't play drow. They are kind of underpowered and the good drow is cliche. First off, I wouldn't play a caster to start out. It's much easier to hit stuff with a sword. If you want to play a melee combatant, I'd go with a strong human fighter. These are good because it's straightforward and you don't have to learn too many class ability (ie rogues sneak attack). This is how I started out, it's fun and easy to play.

Ps: I appraise for the terrible punctuation, it was posted from my phone.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, then it sounds like you already have a character concept. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

It's a good thing, because it's much easier to ask for help building a character if you already have some idea of what you want that character to do. (Although, if you describe what you want the character to do as four different things, it's not quite as helpful.)

It's a bad thing, because at this point the conversation diverges, and you have to decide which road you want it to take. Are you asking:
How do I play this game? A very reasonable question, but it means that your character idea becomes entirely irrelevant. Much like, if you were asking the basics of how to drive a car, the fact that you planned to drive a Ford would be mostly irrelevant to my answer.
How do I build and play this character? Also an excellent question, but it assumes that you have a working knowledge of how to play the game, first. If you don't, there will be a lot of running in circles.
So, before the thread goes any further, why don't you just say which it is you want, and we'll see if we can go from there, hm? Do you want to know how to play the game, or how to play this character?

Both actually.

[Red Fel]

Both actually.

Start with the first, then. Setting aside the issues of this specific character, let's look at what questions you have about the game generally.

Have you already read the PHB, or the SRD? What questions do you have starting off? Again, not questions about this specific character, but questions about how to play the game.

[Bartmanhomer]

Start with the first, then. Setting aside the issues of this specific character, let's look at what questions you have about the game generally.

Have you already read the PHB, or the SRD? What questions do you have starting off? Again, not questions about this specific character, but questions about how to play the game.

Is there a link that will explain everything in the PHB?

[Red Fel]

Is there a link that will explain everything in the PHB?

This one (http://www.d20srd.org/) is a good starting place. It contains the PHB, DMG, and several other books. It gives you the basics on standard classes, races, spells, feats, and mechanics. It also enjoys very user-friendly navigation.

[Flickerdart]

Is there a link that will explain everything in the PHB?
If there was such a link, Wizards of the Coast wouldn't be able to sell PHBs.

Here's a primer though:

The basic mechanic: You roll a 20-sided die, and add your modifiers for the action (attack bonus for attacks, skill bonus for skills, save bonus for a saving throw). If you beat the target number, the thing you want to happen happens. If you fail, a bad thing happens. Sometimes, you roll a smaller die, usually to find out how much damage you deal.

Ability scores: These six attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) define your character's broad competence at basically all the things. Everybody wants a good Constitution because it governs hit points, but the other ability scores you want to raise vary based on class. Your race improves some ability scores and reduces others. The ability score itself isn't as important as the modifier - for every 2 points it's higher than 10, you get a +1 modifier (rounded down), and for every 2 points lower, a -1 modifier (rounded up). So a character with a 9 in Strength has a modifier of -1, while a character with 11 Strength has a modifier of +0. 12 Strength is +1, 13 Strength is still +1, 14 Strength is +2, and so on.

Defenses: There are a couple of defenses, but only a few important ones. Armor class (AC) is what stops you from getting hit. If you do get hit, damage is subtracted from your hit points (HP). Wizards and monsters can also attack other defenses - the saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will). Keep these high if you want to avoid being killed by magic. Drow have a special defense called Spell Resistance, which is basically like AC for spells.

Classes: Your class determines how much HP you get, and your saving throw bonuses. It also determines how well you fight - your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) grows depending on what class you take. BAB affects how accurate your attacks are. How much damage you deal is largely affected by your weapon. Your class also gives you abilities like skills, spells and bonus feats, but more on that later.

Let's put together a quick character so you can see how this all fits together - a drow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm) with one level of fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm). We'll use the Elite Array - a pre-generated array of ability scores, just to keep things simple. The array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

As a fighter, he wants a good Constitution, but receives a penalty to it because he is an elf (-2). On the other hand, he doesn't have a lot of use for Charisma or Intelligence, even though he gets bonuses to them. So we will arrange his ability scores like this: 15 goes into Strength, the most important score for a Fighter. 14 goes into Constitution, but becomes 12 because of the penalty. 13 goes into Dexterity, and becomes 15 due to the racial bonus. We'll put a 10 (becomes 12) into Intelligence, 12 into Wisdom, and 8 (becomes 10) into Charisma.

As a 1st level character, he receives the maximum possible HP from the fighter's hit die (10). He adds his Constitution modifier (+1, since it is 12) to that, and ends up with 11 hit points. His saving throw bonuses from being a fighter are +2 for Fortitude, and 0 for the others. He adds his Constitution modifier to Fortitude, Dexterity modifier to Reflex, and Wisdom modifier to Will, and ends up with Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1. His AC will be a sum of his armor, his Dexterity, and the base number (10). Because he is only level 1, he buys chain shirt (+4) and his AC is 16 (10 + 4 for the chain shirt + 2 for his high Dexterity).

Are you seeing a pattern yet? Value for which you roll a d20 and add stuff (attack bonus, saving throw) are opposed by values where you add 10 (AC, spell difficulty class).

Anyhow, back to your fighter. He needs a weapon, so he picks a longsword. It has a base damage die of 1d8. He adds +2 to that because of his 15 Strength, which has a +2 modifier. When he attacks, he rolls 1d20+3 (+1 for his base attack bonus, +2 for his Strength). If he rolls the same as the enemy's AC or higher, he hits and rolls damage.

Let's say the drow fighter is the target of a spell by an evil 3rd level wizard. First, the evil wizard has to penetrate the drow's spell resistance. The wizard is level 3, so he rolls 1d20+3. He need to beat the drow's spell resistance of 12 (11 plus his level, which is 1). On a roll of 9 or better the wizard succeeds. Then the fighter has to roll a saving throw against the wizard's spell's difficulty class. Because this is a 3rd level wizard, he casts 2nd level spells, and he has a +2 Intelligence modifier, so the difficulty class to save against is 14 (10, +2 for the spell level, +2 for the wizard's high Intelligence). The saving throw needed varies depending on the spell. The drow fighter hopes it's a spell that needs a Fortitude save, because his is high!

The drow has two more ways to customize his character - he gets skill points, to invest in skills, and feats, to specialize in doing stuff. Fighter levels give him extra feats. I can cover these in more detail for you if you want.

[Bartmanhomer]

This one[/URL] is a good starting place. It contains the PHB, DMG, and several other books. It gives you the basics on standard classes, races, spells, feats, and mechanics. It also enjoys very user-friendly navigation.

Thanks.


If there was such a link, Wizards of the Coast wouldn't be able to sell PHBs.

Here's a primer though:

The basic mechanic: You roll a 20-sided die, and add your modifiers for the action (attack bonus for attacks, skill bonus for skills, save bonus for a saving throw). If you beat the target number, the thing you want to happen happens. If you fail, a bad thing happens. Sometimes, you roll a smaller die, usually to find out how much damage you deal.

Ability scores: These six attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) define your character's broad competence at basically all the things. Everybody wants a good Constitution because it governs hit points, but the other ability scores you want to raise vary based on class. Your race improves some ability scores and reduces others. The ability score itself isn't as important as the modifier - for every 2 points it's higher than 10, you get a +1 modifier (rounded down), and for every 2 points lower, a -1 modifier (rounded up). So a character with a 9 in Strength has a modifier of -1, while a character with 11 Strength has a modifier of +0. 12 Strength is +1, 13 Strength is still +1, 14 Strength is +2, and so on.

Defenses: There are a couple of defenses, but only a few important ones. Armor class (AC) is what stops you from getting hit. If you do get hit, damage is subtracted from your hit points (HP). Wizards and monsters can also attack other defenses - the saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will). Keep these high if you want to avoid being killed by magic. Drow have a special defense called Spell Resistance, which is basically like AC for spells.

Classes: Your class determines how much HP you get, and your saving throw bonuses. It also determines how well you fight - your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) grows depending on what class you take. BAB affects how accurate your attacks are. How much damage you deal is largely affected by your weapon. Your class also gives you abilities like skills, spells and bonus feats, but more on that later.

Let's put together a quick character so you can see how this all fits together - a with one level of . We'll use the Elite Array - a pre-generated array of ability scores, just to keep things simple. The array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

As a fighter, he wants a good Constitution, but receives a penalty to it because he is an elf (-2). On the other hand, he doesn't have a lot of use for Charisma or Intelligence, even though he gets bonuses to them. So we will arrange his ability scores like this: 15 goes into Strength, the most important score for a Fighter. 14 goes into Constitution, but becomes 12 because of the penalty. 13 goes into Dexterity, and becomes 15 due to the racial bonus. We'll put a 10 (becomes 12) into Intelligence, 12 into Wisdom, and 8 (becomes 10) into Charisma.

As a 1st level character, he receives the maximum possible HP from the fighter's hit die (10). He adds his Constitution modifier (+1, since it is 12) to that, and ends up with 11 hit points. His saving throw bonuses from being a fighter are +2 for Fortitude, and 0 for the others. He adds his Constitution modifier to Fortitude, Dexterity modifier to Reflex, and Wisdom modifier to Will, and ends up with Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1. His AC will be a sum of his armor, his Dexterity, and the base number (10). Because he is only level 1, he buys chain shirt (+4) and his AC is 16 (10 + 4 for the chain shirt + 2 for his high Dexterity).

Are you seeing a pattern yet? Value for which you roll a d20 and add stuff (attack bonus, saving throw) are opposed by values where you add 10 (AC, spell difficulty class).

Anyhow, back to your fighter. He needs a weapon, so he picks a longsword. It has a base damage die of 1d8. He adds +2 to that because of his 15 Strength, which has a +2 modifier. When he attacks, he rolls 1d20+3 (+1 for his base attack bonus, +2 for his Strength). If he rolls the same as the enemy's AC or higher, he hits and rolls damage.

Let's say the drow fighter is the target of a spell by an evil 3rd level wizard. First, the evil wizard has to penetrate the drow's spell resistance. The wizard is level 3, so he rolls 1d20+3. He need to beat the drow's spell resistance of 12 (11 plus his level, which is 1). On a roll of 9 or better the wizard succeeds. Then the fighter has to roll a saving throw against the wizard's spell's difficulty class. Because this is a 3rd level wizard, he casts 2nd level spells, and he has a +2 Intelligence modifier, so the difficulty class to save against is 14 (10, +2 for the spell level, +2 for the wizard's high Intelligence). The saving throw needed varies depending on the spell. The drow fighter hopes it's a spell that needs a Fortitude save, because his is high!

The drow has two more ways to customize his character - he gets skill points, to invest in skills, and feats, to specialize in doing stuff. Fighter levels give him extra feats. I can cover these in more detail for you if you want.

I see what you mean. Thanks.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm going to start a male Drow fighter. Just to get the hang of it.

[Aleolus]

I'm going to start a male Drow fighter. Just to get the hang of it.

Well, then I would suggest using a Finesse focus fighter. Give him a high Dex, stick to lighter armors, and take Weapon Finesse as a feat. Then, just stick to weapons that you can use Finesse with (the Raipier is my favorite)

[Flickerdart]

Well, then I would suggest using a Finesse focus fighter. Give him a high Dex, stick to lighter armors, and take Weapon Finesse as a feat. Then, just stick to weapons that you can use Finesse with (the Raipier is my favorite)
The problem with this strategy is that your damage output will be miserable, since Weapon Finesse only adds to your attack bonus. Technically, you could wield a rapier in two hands and Power Attack with it for the 2:1 returns, but that would look weird.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey my male Drow fighter ability score: STR: 18 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 12

That should cover it.

[Aleolus]

The problem with this strategy is that your damage output will be miserable, since Weapon Finesse only adds to your attack bonus. Technically, you could wield a rapier in two hands and Power Attack with it for the 2:1 returns, but that would look weird.

True, but there are plenty of ways to boost damage other than Power Attack and Strength, Finessing plays well with Drow strengths, and besides, hitting more often will result in mpre overall damage, as long as DR isn't an issue.


Hey my male Drow fighter ability score: STR: 18 DEX: 20 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 12

That should cover it.

Looks good, have you decided on feats?

[Flickerdart]

True, but there are plenty of ways to boost damage other than Power Attack and Strength, Finessing plays well with Drow strengths, and besides, hitting more often will result in mpre overall damage, as long as DR isn't an issue.
Finessing doesn't play to any drow strengths except the +2 Dex that they share with elves. And hitting in 3.5 is trivial; it's doing something once you've struck that's tricky!

What advice have you got for a fighter to boost damage that isn't reliant on PA or Strength?

[Rebel7284]

Finessing doesn't play to any drow strengths except the +2 Dex that they share with elves. And hitting in 3.5 is trivial; it's doing something once you've struck that's tricky!

What advice have you got for a fighter to boost damage that isn't reliant on PA or Strength?

Well venturing outside of the core books, Drow of the Underdark does have the alternate class features for fighters, Hit and Run fighter, that gives up the heavy armor and, in return, allows Dexterity bonus to damage when attacking flat footed opponents (opponents who haven't acted yet this combat.)

Of course pulling in options from many sources does add a bit of bookkeeping when building the character so may not be the best way to learn the game. :P

[Endarire]

Greetings, young one!

There is much we can tell you, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll explain things to you this way:

-For now you're new. Get a group together and enjoy the game for what it is to you now.

-In D&D 3.5 (and Pathfinder as well to much of an extent), simplicity and power are at odds with one another. More complicated builds and characters (casters, multiclass characters, and characters that draw from a variety of books and source material) are usually more powerful. As a beginner, that should not matter right now.

-Stats and story are different things. If you worked with your GM (and I advise you do), you could make a character who is statisically a Human but with the appearance of a Drow. "But that isn't a Drow!" you may be thinking. However, with your GM's permission, it is!

-If you want to know how to build an effective character, search the Internet for " D&D 3.5 <class name> Handbook," like "D&D 3.5 Druid Handbook" or "D&D 3.5 Wizard Handbook." These are community-made and supported, and generally assume access to a wide array of content outside of core. Reading them can help you understand the fundamentals of a class, but they're also meant for people who've played D&D 3.5 a few levels. (Races tend not to have handbooks because classes are much more robust.)

-The Internet has many people who will and want to help you. Ask away, and provide lots of relevant details!

[Bartmanhomer]

True, but there are plenty of ways to boost damage other than Power Attack and Strength, Finessing plays well with Drow strengths, and besides, hitting more often will result in mpre overall damage, as long as DR isn't an issue.



Looks good, have you decided on feats?

I haven't decided on feats yet but as the one you suggested is Weapon Finesse. So My fighter will choose Weapon Finesse as a feat. :)

[Aleolus]

Finessing doesn't play to any drow strengths except the +2 Dex that they share with elves. And hitting in 3.5 is trivial; it's doing something once you've struck that's tricky!

What advice have you got for a fighter to boost damage that isn't reliant on PA or Strength?

Just out of core there's Weapon Specialization and its Greater counterpart, Improved Critical, almost all of the weapon enchantments improve damage. And I'm sure if he's willing to delve outside core there are others, including a refluff of Champion of Corellen Larethion from Races of the Wild

[Flickerdart]

Just out of core there's Weapon Specialization and its Greater counterpart, Improved Critical, almost all of the weapon enchantments improve damage.
Okay, sure. Let's take a look-see.

Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization is +4 damage.

Let's give him a rapier with all the core damage boosters, and further assume that no monsters care to have energy resistance or DR of any kind. So we have a +5 flaming frost shock rapier, using the last +2 on, say, a Holy property that we can assume always works.

The damage this stick deals is 1d6+9+5d6, average 30. The extra dice is not multiplied, so only +12.5 damage on crits.

I hope I don't have to explain why and how this is miserable for a character that's sunk 4 feats and 200k gp, and is at least level 12.

Out of core, finessing still sucks, but it sucks slightly less.

[Kanthalion]

Of course pulling in options from many sources does add a bit of bookkeeping when building the character so may not be the best way to learn the game. :P

Good point. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) is a good thing to keep in mind when learning a new system.

I am curious though: there is no mention of a DM or other players from the OP, and with the suggestion from him that he was considering playing a team of drow, I wonder if there is an even more basic understanding of how D&D works that needs to be imparted?

Edit (I suppose I should just ask directly)

Do you have a group you are planning on playing with? Have you talked to the DM of that group about any guidelines/personal restrictions he has?

[Bartmanhomer]

Good point. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) is a good thing to keep in mind when learning a new system.

I am curious though: there is no mention of a DM or other players from the OP, and with the suggestion from him that he was considering playing a team of drow, I wonder if there is an even more basic understanding of how D&D works that needs to be imparted?

Edit (I suppose I should just ask directly)

Do you have a group you are planning on playing with? Have you talked to the DM of that group about any guidelines/personal restrictions he has?

No. Sorry. I don't have a group. :(

[Warrnan]

Let me second the naysayers. If you want to melee attack with Weapon finesse, you need to be a Rogue with two weapon fighting. The extra attacks adding the rogues sneak attack to every hit is very strong. This is probably the most classic way to play a drow.

A fighter needs heavy armor and a giant sword/axe/hammer. If you want to build a drow, use lesser drow, half-drow, or a player's handbook elf with dark skin. If you truly want "drow racial spells", just take a level or two into sorceror or wizard. Drow from the monster manual lose 2 levels for all the little tricks they get and are complete mechanical garbage because of it.

A drow fighter might also have a spiked chain with improved trip feat, controlling the battle field and doing damage like a boss.

[Bartmanhomer]

I do want my male drow fighter to play ranged attacks as well. So my fighter have those options. :)

[Kanthalion]

No. Sorry. I don't have a group. :(

No need to apologize. While you can play with D&D by yourself, (making characters can be fun, and you do learn some of the mechanics in the process. I've also made up characters in the past and pitted them against monsters, moving them both and rolling both sides like I was playing a game of chess against myself,) to truly play it, you need other people. Think of it like cops and robbers, but with rules to prevent the "I shot you!" "No, you didn't!"

You can usually find a group at a local gaming shop. Or you can play online in Play by Post games here or at other websites like Myth-Weavers.

[Bartmanhomer]

No need to apologize. While you can play with D&D by yourself, (making characters can be fun, and you do learn some of the mechanics in the process. I've also made up characters in the past and pitted them against monsters, moving them both and rolling both sides like I was playing a game of chess against myself,) to truly play it, you need other people. Think of it like cops and robbers, but with rules to prevent the "I shot you!" "No, you didn't!"

You can usually find a group at a local gaming shop. Or you can play online in Play by Post games here or at other websites like Myth-Weavers.

Really? I can play D&D by myself? That will make my life a lot easier. Thank you. :)

[Kanthalion]

Really? I can play D&D by myself? That will make my life a lot easier. Thank you. :)

Not exactly. You can play with it, like a complex toy, but it isn't the same thing.

[Bartmanhomer]

Not exactly. You can play with it, like a complex toy, but it isn't the same thing.

Ok. I see what you mean. :)

[TheIronGolem]

With the help of the right tools, you could kinda-sorta play D&D by yourself. You'd need a way to generate random dungeons and then reveal the details of each room to yourself only as you enter. You'd also need tools to randomly generate level-appropriate monsters and treasure. You can find that online.

The result would be a pure hack-and-slash dungeoncrawling experience, with no real stimulation of roleplaying beyond what you do in your own head - basically Nethack on paper. It wouldn't be the "full D&D experience", but it would help you get a feel for the mechanics and character building, plus it would give you a headstart once you do find a group to join.

[Bartmanhomer]

I figure out what will I name my male drow fighter. His name is Patrick Club.

[Aleolus]

With the help of the right tools, you could kinda-sorta play D&D by yourself. You'd need a way to generate random dungeons and then reveal the details of each room to yourself only as you enter. You'd also need tools to randomly generate level-appropriate monsters and treasure. You can find that online.

The result would be a pure hack-and-slash dungeoncrawling experience, with no real stimulation of roleplaying beyond what you do in your own head - basically Nethack on paper. It wouldn't be the "full D&D experience", but it would help you get a feel for the mechanics and character building, plus it would give you a headstart once you do find a group to join.

There are also several DnD based computer games you can play, some of which are very accurate to the rules of the regular game. My personal favorites are Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Icewind Dale 2. Of note, only Neverwinter Nights 2 and Temple of Elemental Evil are 3.5 based, the others are 3.0, and Temple of Elemental Evil only allows character creation from the PHB, so no Drow in it

[Flickerdart]

Neverwinter Nights 2
NWN2 takes liberties with the ruleset quite a bit, but mostly in good ways (stripping out abusable spells, swapping to simultaneous combat, giving monks unique gear that let them keep up). The expansion pack Storm of Zehir plays a lot like a classic D&D adventure would - the party moves around an overworld map making skill checks and chasing/fleeing from monsters, encounters locales like caves or cities to explore in closer detail, and must rest in the wilderness with the danger of being ambushed or running out of time for a quest. The other arcs of the game (the base plot line and Mask of the Betrayer) are much more arcade about the whole thing - you can rest indefinitely with impunity, but travel between places is abstracted and frequently outside your control.


Temple of Elemental Evil
This game is accurate to 3.5 rules to a fault - but it's also pretty buggy, so make sure to download the Circle of Eight patch.

According to some surface Googling, the "drow" encountered in the game are actually elves with some gear that give them the appearance of different skin.

[Bartmanhomer]

I got a story for my male Drow Fighter, Patrick Club.

Patrick Drow was once an evil drow fighter at one point. He's use to pick fights with elves so many times that he was lock in a dungeons. Soon Patrick met a human fighter master in the dungeons. Together they escaped. After their escape Patrick redeem himself to be a good drow. His human fighter master taught Patrick how to fight with melee and ranged combat. After his training Patrick bid farewell to his master and start his new journey. So what do you think?

[Flickerdart]

Note that in drow society, picking fights with elves is encouraged, because all drow hate elves. Perhaps he was captured by elves while raiding them?

[Bartmanhomer]

Note that in drow society, picking fights with elves is encouraged, because all drow hate elves. Perhaps he was captured by elves while raiding them?


Yes. He was capture by elves during a raid.

[ericgrau]

Hey everybody. I want to learn how to play Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. I just thinking of playing a good-aligned drow. Perhaps a team of good-aligned drow. Where do I start?

Well first you pick up two scimitars and... just kidding.

1. Find a group who plays dungeons and dragons 3.5 or Pathfinder (which is very similar). There are sections in this forum that can help you out. Also at the enworld forums. Not sure if wizards.com still has 3.5 looking for group forums by you can try there too if they do. And try Pathfinder's forums too. Until others I am not telling you to play one or the other because they are so similar that it doesn't really matter. Whichever kind of group you find, play with them. If you want to play a drow badly, be sure to tell them this when looking because some groups don't allow races with level adjustment. Drow have level adjustment.
2. Pick up a 3.5 Player's Handbook (or Pathfinder core rulebook) and read it starting at the front and stopping before you get to magic and spells. Don't worry about memorizing everything, just get a basic idea of how to play for now. The group you play with will help you out.
3. Ask the group to help you get started, make a character and how to play. Really they can take it from here. I think in person is much better than playing online for learning. So go find a face to face group.

Drow have level adjustment +2 which means they pay 2 levels in exchange for their abilities. Those who design super powerful characters will tell you that this makes drow worthless because they could do better with those two levels. 95% of gaming groups I see don't make such super powered characters, many won't even allow them. 3-4% of what remains will either disallow level adjustment or give you 2 free level adjustment. So if you like to play drow then go ahead and play a drow. As long as the group is ok with them it shouldn't be a problem.

There are a lot of different ways you can make your fighter. I think you should do str > dex > con for your ability scores. D&D 3.5 is mean to characters who try to do more than one thing, so put all your feats into melee but get a composite longbow as a backup weapon. That way you can still focus on strength and melee, but you take advantage of your strength using your composite longbow. Normally you fight with melee, but if a certain enemy makes that hard to do, you have your bow as a backup.

Spell resistance, +2 will saves and an additional +2 bonus to saves against enchantment spells will be helpful as a fighter. You won't have to worry as much about your saving throws. The big weakness of spell resistance is that you will be harder to heal in an emergency. Which is usually fine because most healing should be done in between fights. And then you can lower your spell resistance while they heal you. But for emergencies you should have a couple good healing potions and/or healing items. These are not affected by spell resistance. Plus an ally can pour your potion down your throat even if you are unconscious. They are much more expensive than healing from an ally, but like I said this is only for emergencies so you only need a couple. When it's not an emergency and you're not in a fight you can lower your spell resistance.

[Flickerdart]

Those who design super powerful characters will tell you that this makes drow worthless because they could do better with those two levels.
Yeah, that's not the issue with LA. The issue with LA is that you have fewer HD than your party members, meaning that at the early levels when this sort of thing actually matters, your HP is low and your saves are low. Good luck surviving on a single hit die against ogres that can paste you in one hit.

[ericgrau]

The ogre is the extreme case at LA 2 & 1 HD and does not apply generally.

[Endarire]

Another note, young one:

Non-casters tend to have a lot of the same options for combat. That is "I attack it in melee" or "I attack it at range." A Rogue could do a lot of what your proposed Fighter could do, and perhaps better. Balance in 3.5 is in the 'it's bad/good only if your group thinks it is' range. The short answer on D&D 3.5 balance is that D&D 3.5 is balanced, but in a weird way, and it requires your GM to think like the game's designers and enforce this balance throughout the game. Most people don't do this. A game you enjoy is better a balanced game, and much of D&D 3.5's community is still around because of this sentiment.

Also, focusing on ranged or melee combat has a notable cost - feats and items at least. Trying to do both well as a non-caster has an even higher cost since you need to be capable in 2 combat styles. You can (and should) keep a ranged weapon as a melee character and at least 1 melee weapon as a ranged character - just in case - but this case will become less useful as your levels rise.

[Flickerdart]

The ogre is the extreme case at LA 2 & 1 HD and does not apply generally.
Alright, let's take a look at how the early levels play out with four buddies - Danny Drow (drow wizard), Daisy Drow (drow fighter), Henry Human (human wizard), and Harriet Human (human fighter). All of them are on Elite Array and all of them invest 14 - their second best stat - into Constitution. All of them have average HP.

When the party is 3rd level, Danny has 5 hit points against his colleague Henry's 15. Forget about ogres - Danny should watch out when faced with a CR 1/2 elf fighter (or just about any other CR 1/2, 1 HD warrior), whose average longsword blow (6.5 damage) plunges him into negatives.

Daisy has a glamorous 11 hit points, against Harriet's 27. We need to ratchet all the way up to CR2 to find common foes that knock Daisy down in a single blow, without even resorting to full attacks. I hope she doesn't encounter a bison (average damage 13.5) or crocodile (average 12.5 on the tail slap). These are guys under the party's CR, so they can expect to face loads of them in a single day. I won't even mention *gasp* CR3 creatures such as the ankheg (avg 14), centaur (avg 13), dire wolf (avg 14.5) or any other frontline bruiser type creature because all of them drop Daisy like it's hot. Even Henry the human wizard can take more of a punch, and that's just sad. Also, a wight kills her in one hit because energy drain. You better forget about facing boss encounters that are +1 or +2 CR, never mind +3 or +4.

Let's dial up a level. The party is level 4, and we're looking at 8 HP for Danny, 19 for Henry, 17 for Daisy, and 34 for Harriet. I'm not even going to bother with Danny anymore because he still dies to a rogue fart. Daisy has less survivability than the party's useful wizard, and goes down to a giant crocodile (avg 21), giant stag beetle (avg 23), griffon (18), rhinoceros (19), and is really risking it against dire boars and minotaurs (16.5). These aren't even full attacks yet, folks, and wild animals knock Daisy down.

Another level? Don't mind if I do! We're at level 5 which some of you might recognize as the quarter of the game that gets the most play. Danny tripped on a rock and died a while back, so we don't really need to look at him again. Harriet leads the pack with 42 HP, followed by Henry and Daisy tied at 24. As much HP as the party wizard? Top score. Because everything at this level has full attacks, let's switch to those. Any of the Large elementals paste our girl. Achaierai do. Dire lions do. Hydras of any kind do. Werebears do. Manticores do, both at range and in melee. Ettin skeletons do. Hieracosphinxes and tojanida nearly do. Trolls do, with battleaxe or natural attacks.

Yet another? Harriet is at 49, Daisy is finally not in last place with 30. Megaraptor or its skeleton? Dead. Ettin? Dead. Girallon? Dead. Average salamander? Dead. Shambling mound? Dead if it manages to constrict, which it will in a trivial fashion due to being big and strong. Tendriculos? Dead. Wyvern? Dead. Xorn? Nearly dead.

Level 7? We're now up to a third of the game and Daisy is soaring on 37 hit points to Harriet's 57. All the huge elementals kill her. Bulettes kill her. Cachalots kill her. Chimerae kill her. Hellcats kill her when they pounce. Dire bears kill her real good. Elephants kill her. Hill giants kill her. Ogres come back with barbarian levels and kill her again. Cloud giant skeletons kill her. Criosphinxes kill her.

I can keep going, but it's never going to get better. Monster damage output keeps increasing, Daisy keeps falling behind compared to Harriet unless she prioritizes Constitution far over Strength. In the meantime, the drow's racial advantages are rapidly diminishing as the usefulness of class features overtakes +2 Charisma and Intelligence.

Ogres are not the extreme case. Ogres are a drow's life.

[Bartmanhomer]

Do you think Patrick Club is too human for a drow name?

[ericgrau]

Alright, let's take a look at how the early levels play out with four buddies - Danny Drow (drow wizard), Daisy Drow (drow fighter), Henry Human (human wizard), and Harriet Human (human fighter). All of them are on Elite Array and all of them invest 14 - their second best stat - into Constitution. All of them have average HP.

When the party is 3rd level, Danny has 5 hit points against his colleague Henry's 15. Forget about ogres - Danny should watch out when faced with a CR 1/2 elf fighter (or just about any other CR 1/2, 1 HD warrior), whose average longsword blow (6.5 damage) plunges him into negatives.

Daisy has a glamorous 11 hit points, against Harriet's 27. We need to ratchet all the way up to CR2 to find common foes that knock Daisy down in a single blow, without even resorting to full attacks. I hope she doesn't encounter a bison (average damage 13.5) or crocodile (average 12.5 on the tail slap). These are guys under the party's CR, so they can expect to face loads of them in a single day. I won't even mention *gasp* CR3 creatures such as the ankheg (avg 14), centaur (avg 13), dire wolf (avg 14.5) or any other frontline bruiser type creature because all of them drop Daisy like it's hot. Even Henry the human wizard can take more of a punch, and that's just sad. Also, a wight kills her in one hit because energy drain. You better forget about facing boss encounters that are +1 or +2 CR, never mind +3 or +4.

Let's dial up a level. The party is level 4, and we're looking at 8 HP for Danny, 19 for Henry, 17 for Daisy, and 34 for Harriet. I'm not even going to bother with Danny anymore because he still dies to a rogue fart. Daisy has less survivability than the party's useful wizard, and goes down to a giant crocodile (avg 21), giant stag beetle (avg 23), griffon (18), rhinoceros (19), and is really risking it against dire boars and minotaurs (16.5). These aren't even full attacks yet, folks, and wild animals knock Daisy down.

Another level? Don't mind if I do! We're at level 5 which some of you might recognize as the quarter of the game that gets the most play. Danny tripped on a rock and died a while back, so we don't really need to look at him again. Harriet leads the pack with 42 HP, followed by Henry and Daisy tied at 24. As much HP as the party wizard? Top score. Because everything at this level has full attacks, let's switch to those. Any of the Large elementals paste our girl. Achaierai do. Dire lions do. Hydras of any kind do. Werebears do. Manticores do, both at range and in melee. Ettin skeletons do. Hieracosphinxes and tojanida nearly do. Trolls do, with battleaxe or natural attacks.

Yet another? Harriet is at 49, Daisy is finally not in last place with 30. Megaraptor or its skeleton? Dead. Ettin? Dead. Girallon? Dead. Average salamander? Dead. Shambling mound? Dead if it manages to constrict, which it will in a trivial fashion due to being big and strong. Tendriculos? Dead. Wyvern? Dead. Xorn? Nearly dead.

Level 7? We're now up to a third of the game and Daisy is soaring on 37 hit points to Harriet's 57. All the huge elementals kill her. Bulettes kill her. Cachalots kill her. Chimerae kill her. Hellcats kill her when they pounce. Dire bears kill her real good. Elephants kill her. Hill giants kill her. Ogres come back with barbarian levels and kill her again. Cloud giant skeletons kill her. Criosphinxes kill her.

I can keep going, but it's never going to get better. Monster damage output keeps increasing, Daisy keeps falling behind compared to Harriet unless she prioritizes Constitution far over Strength. In the meantime, the drow's racial advantages are rapidly diminishing as the usefulness of class features overtakes +2 Charisma and Intelligence.

Ogres are not the extreme case. Ogres are a drow's life.
Let's start at level 5 where most parties start and go up from there. And bulettes and so forth don't one shot the character at that level. Not all attacks are full attacks and not all attacks hit. Also the entire comparison pays attention only to the drow's lowest stat, hp, and barely even mentions any of the benefits.

Typically it's said fighters suck because of their will save and their extra HP is laughed at. Drow get a +2 to all will saves and +2 more against enchantments, plus scaling SR. I addressed the real racial weakness, healing with SR, earlier. Other than that I said to get a decent con & dex which is enough to cover defense, though defensive items wouldn't hurt. I mean a couple stackable items such as an affordable armor crystal (Magic Item Compendium, btw, Bartmanhomer) makes the entire hp wall of text above moot. Not that the items are essential.

[Red Fel]

I got a story for my male Drow Fighter, Patrick Club.

Patrick Drow was once an evil drow fighter at one point. He's use to pick fights with elves so many times that he was lock in a dungeons. Soon Patrick met a human fighter master in the dungeons. Together they escaped. After their escape Patrick redeem himself to be a good drow. His human fighter master taught Patrick how to fight with melee and ranged combat. After his training Patrick bid farewell to his master and start his new journey. So what do you think?

Well, if I'm going to be critical, several questions arise.
He was captured by Elves. Why did they not kill him? Elves and Drow are violently racist towards one another. So why did they let him live?
He was in an Elven dungeon? And there was a Human there? Why was a Human in an Elven dungeon? Was he also Evil? If so, why would Patrick redeem himself?
Drow hate Elves, but they also hate pretty much everyone else. Why would he trust, let alone apprentice himself to, a Human?
Patrick was already a Drow warrior on raids. Why would he need training from a Human?

Do you think Patrick Club is too human for a drow name?

Well, let me put it this way. Here are some sample Drow names from the books by Salvatore and Cunningham:
Alton DeVir
Berg'inyon
Dargathan
Hesken-P'aj Symryvvin
Kimmuriel Oblodora
Mod'Vensis Tlabbar
Vartha Do'Urden
Zeerith Q'Xorlarrin
That's what Drow names usually sound like. Lots of syllables, a few unnecessary apostrophes.

Yours is named "Patrick Club."

[Kanthalion]

Do you think Patrick Club is too human for a drow name?

Unless you join a group and the DM has some policy on names, you can name your Drow whatever you want to name it.


Let's start at level 5 where most parties start and go up from there. And bulettes and so forth don't one shot the character at that level. Not all attacks are full attacks and not all attacks hit. Also the entire comparison pays attention only to the drow's lowest stat, hp, and barely even mentions any of the benefits.

Typically it's said fighters suck because of their will save and their extra HP is laughed at. Drow get a +2 to all will saves and +2 more against enchantments, plus scaling SR. I addressed the real racial weakness, healing with SR, earlier. Other than that I said to get a decent con & dex which is enough to cover defense, though defensive items wouldn't hurt. I mean a couple items like an affordable armor crystal (Magic Item Compendium, btw, Bartmanhomer) makes the entire hp wall of text above moot. Not that the items are essential.

It's also a bit too mechanics focused for my taste. I know everyone has a different motivation for playing and a different focus, but for me, I encourage my players to make unoptimized oddball characters with fun concepts that may not be great mechanically but are fun to roleplay.

[ericgrau]

It's also a bit too mechanics focused for my taste. I know everyone has a different motivation for playing and a different focus, but for me, I encourage my players to make unoptimized oddball characters with fun concepts that may not be great mechanically but are fun to roleplay.
Play what you want and have fun is another concern yes. If anything getting into the mechanics should be used to help the OP make his chosen character effective, not to tell him to play something besides what he wants to play.

That's why I jumped into overcoming the annoyance of emergency healing straight away before he gets frustrated. Other than that he should be fine, though optimizing some doesn't hurt.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, if I'm going to be critical, several questions arise.
He was captured by Elves. Why did they not kill him? Elves and Drow are violently racist towards one another. So why did they let him live?
He was in an Elven dungeon? And there was a Human there? Why was a Human in an Elven dungeon? Was he also Evil? If so, why would Patrick redeem himself?
Drow hate Elves, but they also hate pretty much everyone else. Why would he trust, let alone apprentice himself to, a Human?
Patrick was already a Drow warrior on raids. Why would he need training from a Human?

Gee I haven't put on more thought on this. Maybe this will help I'l replaced the human fighter master to a an elf fighter master. The reason why the elf fighter master went to the dungeons so he bail him out and told him to redeem himself for giving him a second chance.

Well, let me put it this way. Here are some sample Drow names from the books by Salvatore and Cunningham:
Alton DeVir
Berg'inyon
Dargathan
Hesken-P'aj Symryvvin
Kimmuriel Oblodora
Mod'Vensis Tlabbar
Vartha Do'Urden
Zeerith Q'Xorlarrin
That's what Drow names usually sound like. Lots of syllables, a few unnecessary apostrophes.

Yours is named "Patrick Club."

Yeah I might as well keep Patrick Club name. Because the drow name is very hard to pronounce.

[Kanthalion]

Play what you want and have fun is another concern yes. If anything getting into the mechanics should be used to help the OP make his chosen character effective, not to tell him to play something besides what he wants to play.

Exactly!


That's why I jumped into overcoming the annoyance of emergency healing straight away before he gets frustrated. Other than that he should be fine, though optimizing some doesn't hurt.

Healing Belts (also in the Magic Item Compendium) are also happy things.

[LentilNinja]

Yeah I might as well keep Patrick Club name. Because the drow name is very hard to pronounce.

I typically use this website (http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/DrowNameGenerator.html) for making Drow names. If you're unsure on the pronunciation, just guess. Nobody speaks in Drow, so no one should get confused right?

To Original Poster:
I've read through this thread and seen you've mentioned you don't have a group to play with. Can I ask then why you're wanting to learn it?

When I wanted to play 3.5 it was because I found a group running it. The DM and a few veteran players taught me how to build characters and play the game, and while everyone here has done a good job of teaching you some things about 3.5 its a lot easier and definitely more efficient to learn face-to-face with existing players.

Until then, the next best way you're going to learn is just by reading through the Player's Handbook from the beginning through most of its chapters. If you study this, you'll definitely get a good grasp on 3.5. If you find a group, someone will definitely have a copy you can read through. Alternatively theres d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) which contains information from the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.

To everyone posting:
I feel like this thread has turned more into "Help me build my Drow Fighter". I've seen a couple of posts debating ideas on how the character should be built rather than presenting the options for OP to choose from. Also, keep in mind that he ONLY has access to d20srd, so anything from other books should be left out of this. Its his first character, but it wont be his last. It'd be best to keep things to the content he has available.

Hope this helps. Just my two cents.

[Bartmanhomer]

I typically use this website (http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/DrowNameGenerator.html) for making Drow names. If you're unsure on the pronunciation, just guess. Nobody speaks in Drow, so no one should get confused right?

To Original Poster:
I've read through this thread and seen you've mentioned you don't have a group to play with. Can I ask then why you're wanting to learn it?

When I wanted to play 3.5 it was because I found a group running it. The DM and a few veteran players taught me how to build characters and play the game, and while everyone here has done a good job of teaching you some things about 3.5 its a lot easier and definitely more efficient to learn face-to-face with existing players.

Until then, the next best way you're going to learn is just by reading through the Player's Handbook from the beginning through most of its chapters. If you study this, you'll definitely get a good grasp on 3.5. If you find a group, someone will definitely have a copy you can read through. Alternatively theres d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) which contains information from the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.

To everyone posting:
I feel like this thread has turned more into "Help me build my Drow Fighter". I've seen a couple of posts debating ideas on how the character should be built rather than presenting the options for OP to choose from. Also, keep in mind that he ONLY has access to d20srd, so anything from other books should be left out of this. Its his first character, but it wont be his last. It'd be best to keep things to the content he has available.

Hope this helps. Just my two cents.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be off-topic. The reason why I want to learn it because I need to know what my first experience feel like when I'm playing an RPG game.

[ericgrau]

Then it may be helpful to read all the rules, then find logs of other games people have played. Perhaps read some play by post games, or try to find an audio recording of a game. That's to help you learn what D&D is like. Then to finish learning how to play, it's best to find a gaming group and learn from them.

If you can't use magic item compendium then a couple good emergency potions is good. As for ideas on how to build your character, I think you can pick and choose what you like from them so it's not necessarily a bad thing.

You may consider a reach weapon and tripping to work well with your fragility (for example guisarme, combat expertise, improved trip). If you really want your bow to be more than an occasional backup and want to put 1 or 2 feats in it, then I think rapid shot is your best bet. But then for each fight I would decide "Am I doing melee or range this fight?" It's hard to move into melee while rapidly firing arrows. But then if allies get into melee and if you don't have the precise shot feat, then you might switch to melee.

[LentilNinja]

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be off-topic. The reason why I want to learn it because I need to know what my first experience feel like when I'm playing an RPG game.

Don't apologize, going off-topic isn't an issue :) If anything, this thread will help you be ready for playing by having a character already generated.

The best way to get experience is by doing. I feel like this forum has a section for finding and joining online games, but I dunno where its located. Someone will be able to correct me here.

[Kanthalion]

Perhaps read some play by post games, or try to find an audio recording of a game. That's to help you learn what D&D is like.

You could also watch some of the Acquisitions Inc videos on YouTube. They're playing 5th edition now, but you can see how the gaming dynamic works.

[ericgrau]

You could also watch some of the Acquisitions Inc videos on YouTube. They're playing 5th edition now, but you can see how the gaming dynamic works.

Omg I loved their 4e games. Thought 4e itself was just ok, but those guys are funny. I may have to look that up.

[Flickerdart]

Let's start at level 5 where most parties start and go up from there.
What makes you think that's true?


Typically it's said fighters suck because of their will save and their extra HP is laughed at.
The drow is bad at the thing fighters are supposed to be good at. Being less bad at things fighters are still bad at isn't exactly useful.

[Bartmanhomer]

What about the skills? What are they about?

[Kanthalion]

What about the skills? What are they about?
How good your character is at different things. The more points you put in a particular skill the more likely he is to do well at it.

[Bartmanhomer]

How good your character is at different things. The more points you put in a particular skill the more likely he is to do well at it.

Cool. I think I'm getting the hand of D & D a little bit.

[GreyBlack]

Greetings from the Great Carrier of Tubes and Cats!

So, you want to pick up D&D 3.5 and want to know what your first experience will be like? Well, first and foremost, remember that these games aren't a competition. Enjoy yourself, and don't try too hard to be the best! Sometimes, I feel like new players get a bad impression from experienced players doing these extraordinary feats, but it's not necessary at all!

So, before I give you any advice, I want you to do one thing: I want you to ask yourself who is your character? Who are you playing? I know you said drow fighter, but that says very little. How old are you? How were you raised? Do you have family? What led you to become a fighter? What drives you?

Don't think too hard about the actual rules at first. What you're going to wind up doing is sitting down with some friends, ordering pizza, and making jokes. Sometimes, the gamemaster/dungeon master (the guy running the story) will ask you to roll a d20, or 20 sided die, and add a number to it. This number could be because you're making an attack, you're trying to use a skill, or trying to not get hurt. Don't worry, the DM will tell you what to roll.

But basically, just have fun! Now, I know you said you want to make a drow, but something I really think you should consider (and will be more fun for you) is to just play an elf and pretend you're a drow. Drow have a very big downside in the form of "you're always 2 levels behind everyone else." Maybe talk to the person running the game and asking if you can say you're a drow while just using the standard elf race?

To the playground: Yes, I know that there are stat differences between elf and drow, but I'm looking at new player experience here. Refluffing is probably the best bet.

[Bartmanhomer]

Greetings from the Great Carrier of Tubes and Cats!

So, you want to pick up D&D 3.5 and want to know what your first experience will be like? Well, first and foremost, remember that these games aren't a competition. Enjoy yourself, and don't try too hard to be the best! Sometimes, I feel like new players get a bad impression from experienced players doing these extraordinary feats, but it's not necessary at all!

So, before I give you any advice, I want you to do one thing: I want you to ask yourself who is your character? Who are you playing? I know you said drow fighter, but that says very little. How old are you? How were you raised? Do you have family? What led you to become a fighter? What drives you?

Don't think too hard about the actual rules at first. What you're going to wind up doing is sitting down with some friends, ordering pizza, and making jokes. Sometimes, the gamemaster/dungeon master (the guy running the story) will ask you to roll a d20, or 20 sided die, and add a number to it. This number could be because you're making an attack, you're trying to use a skill, or trying to not get hurt. Don't worry, the DM will tell you what to roll.

But basically, just have fun! Now, I know you said you want to make a drow, but something I really think you should consider (and will be more fun for you) is to just play an elf and pretend you're a drow. Drow have a very big downside in the form of "you're always 2 levels behind everyone else." Maybe talk to the person running the game and asking if you can say you're a drow while just using the standard elf race?

To the playground: Yes, I know that there are stat differences between elf and drow, but I'm looking at new player experience here. Refluffing is probably the best bet.

I'm already one step ahead of you. Patrick Club age is in the adulthood stage. He does have a family. His wife Carrie Club Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Cleric. His son, Stan Club Male Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Rogue. And her daughter Bonnie Club. Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/ Level 1 Wizard. He was raised in a very bad family. The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot. I hope that covers it.

[GreyBlack]

I'm already one step ahead of you. Patrick Club age is in the adulthood stage. He does have a family. His wife Carrie Club Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Cleric. His son, Stan Club Male Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Rogue. And her daughter Bonnie Club. Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/ Level 1 Wizard. He was raised in a very bad family. The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot. I hope that covers it.

Well, why does he fight? Money? Thrill of the fight? And what sort of equipment does he use? How did he get it? What type of weapon does he use?

I'm asking these questions because these are the questions I ask myself. Most of my favorite characters I've played have been considered weak, but were just so much fun because of who they were, not what they were.

I guess what I'm saying is think character first, build your character second. Once you know who your character is, the rest follows.

[Lagren]

I'm already one step ahead of you. Patrick Club age is in the adulthood stage. He does have a family. His wife Carrie Club Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Cleric. His son, Stan Club Male Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Rogue. And her daughter Bonnie Club. Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/ Level 1 Wizard. He was raised in a very bad family. The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot. I hope that covers it.

"The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot."

This is the beginnings of a character - and in my opinion, D&D is about character more than it's about mechanics. Ask yourself: Why does he enjoy fighting? Is he more bloodthirsty, or does he see fighting as a challenge he's good at? Does he take pride in fighting well? Does he enjoy the adrenaline rush of being near death?

The answers to these questions might illuminate more about how to build your character than you think. :smallwink:

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, why does he fight? Money? Thrill of the fight? And what sort of equipment does he use? How did he get it? What type of weapon does he use?

I'm asking these questions because these are the questions I ask myself. Most of my favorite characters I've played have been considered weak, but were just so much fun because of who they were, not what they were.

I guess what I'm saying is think character first, build your character second. Once you know who your character is, the rest follows.

He enjoys fighting just for the thrill of it. He's used rapier and hand crossbow.


"The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot."

This is the beginnings of a character - and in my opinion, D&D is about character more than it's about mechanics. Ask yourself: Why does he enjoy fighting? Is he more bloodthirsty, or does he see fighting as a challenge he's good at? Does he take pride in fighting well? Does he enjoy the adrenaline rush of being near death?

The answers to these questions might illuminate more about how to build your character than you think. :smallwink:

As I already mentioned it, he enjoy fighting to get the thrill of it.

[beckyangelix]

It really bugs me that everyone is telling you to avoid playing a good Drow because it's clichéd. That's such BS, it's astounding. Play WHATEVER DAMN CHARACTER YOU WANT. Guaranteed that unless you're playing with a bunch of jerks nobody is going to demand you have a totally unique character. Those just don't exist.

[Red Fel]

It really bugs me that everyone is telling you to avoid playing a good Drow because it's clichéd. That's such BS, it's astounding. Play WHATEVER DAMN CHARACTER YOU WANT. Guaranteed that unless you're playing with a bunch of jerks nobody is going to demand you have a totally unique character. Those just don't exist.

People aren't just saying not to play a good Drow because it's cliched. A few mentioned that, but not all. Mostly, it's because a Drow, mechanically speaking, is objectively sub-optimal; it will make the character weaker than you would want. Moreover, it adds complexity to the character, which is not ideal if it's your first. That said, your advice is correct; the OP should play whatever he wants, if it makes him happy.

[(Un)Inspired]

That said, your advice is correct; the OP should play whatever he wants, if it makes him happy.

Is this really true? Should the OP, and by extension all players, play whatever they want so long as it makes them happy?

[Kanthalion]

Is this really true? Should the OP, and by extension all players, play whatever they want so long as it makes them happy?

Yes. Within reason. Generally, unless a person is totally socially unaware, it would bring more happiness to play a character that contributes to the whole. But if you feel like you need to play a character that does not make you happy because "the party needs it" or some other bull****, something is gravely wrong.

[Red Fel]

Is this really true? Should the OP, and by extension all players, play whatever they want so long as it makes them happy?

Of course not. Everyone should play a Wizard 20 with a very specific selection of spells and feats. Every build should be identical and every fight rocket tag. I only say such silly things as "play what you want" to keep the masses pacified. Blue text is unnecessary.

[GilesTheCleric]

Of course not. Everyone should play a Wizard 20 with a very specific selection of spells and feats. Every build should be identical and every fight rocket tag. I only say such silly things as "play what you want" to keep the masses pacified.

So you're saying Wizard 20 is the opiate of the masses?

[Flickerdart]

So you're saying Wizard 20 is the opiate of the masses?

Now, now, there's no need for an argument about which class is better. A class war, if you will.

[GilesTheCleric]

Now, now, there's no need for an argument about which class is better. A class war, if you will.

Someone give this fine gentleman an internet.

[Kanthalion]

Now, now, there's no need for an argument about which class is better. A class war, if you will.

I assume one side would make heavy use of prole-arms?

[ComaVision]

I think it's best that everyone just roll a d20 (for initiative) and whoever gets the highest result (no point adding modifiers because we all have the same build) wins. That's how my group plays, and it's basically the pinnacle of TTRPG.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think it's best that everyone just roll a d20 (for initiative) and whoever gets the highest result (no point adding modifiers because we all have the same build) wins. That's how my group plays, and it's basically the pinnacle of TTRPG.

That sounds like an incredibly communal and equal experience. I approve.

[TheIronGolem]

I assume one side would make heavy use of prole-arms?

Top Marx for that one.

[Kanthalion]

Top Marx for that one.

Thank you. I was Lenin toward a bourgeoisie pun but I couldn't think of one so I was just Stalin for time.

[Red Fel]

Top Marx for that one.

I see you're looking at this from all the Engels.

[Kanthalion]

I see you're looking at this from all the Engels.

Good one! You have just dialectic up to 21.

[TheIronGolem]

Good one! You have just dialectic up to 21.

Well, from each according to his ability scores...

[Kanthalion]

Well, from each according to his ability scores...

... To each according to his wealth by level.

[Bartmanhomer]

In case you want to know why I choose a good-align drow because I'm a drow fan and drows are fun to play with in Dungeons and Dragons version 3.5. :smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

Why do you say that, seeing as you don't actually know how to play the game?

[GreyBlack]

Well, from each according to his ability scores...


... To each according to his wealth by level.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Bartmanhomer]

Why do you say that, seeing as you don't actually know how to play the game?

I'm learning it. That's why.

[Red Fel]

In case you want to know why I choose a good-align drow because I'm a drow fan and drows are fun to play with in Dungeons and Dragons version 3.5. :smallcool:


Why do you say that, seeing as you don't actually know how to play the game?


I'm learning it. That's why.

I think Flickerdart's point is that if you don't know how to play the game, it's kind of hard to say "X is fun to play in this game." You don't exactly have a basis of comparison, now do you?

[Bartmanhomer]

I think Flickerdart's point is that if you don't know how to play the game, it's kind of hard to say "X is fun to play in this game." You don't exactly have a basis of comparison, now do you?

Oh yeah. Now I understand. My bad. :)

[Firest Kathon]

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be off-topic. The reason why I want to learn it because I need to know what my first experience feel like when I'm playing an RPG game.
You can find videos of actual gaming sessions on Youtube, that will give you some idea how it would look like. I recommend Titansgrave (http://geekandsundry.com/shows/titansgrave/) on Geek & Sundry, it's very well made.
Of course, gaming styles can be very different, but at least you'll get some basic ideas.

[ZamielVanWeber]

In case you want to know why I choose a good-align drow because I'm a drow fan and drows are fun to play with in Dungeons and Dragons version 3.5. :smallcool:

Fair warning: mechanically this is the opposite of true. Many of the really cool stuff you can do in DnD comes from class, not race, and drow slows down dramatically the speed at which you get these goodies. The book Player's Guide to Faerun has, hidden away, a section discussing a race called "lesser drow." They are, by fluff, drow but don't have some of the stuff that makes drow give up levels.

[Bartmanhomer]

Fair warning: mechanically this is the opposite of true. Many of the really cool stuff you can do in DnD comes from class, not race, and drow slows down dramatically the speed at which you get these goodies. The book Player's Guide to Faerun has, hidden away, a section discussing a race called "lesser drow." They are, by fluff, drow but don't have some of the stuff that makes drow give up levels.

That's good to know. Anyway I'm going to start making my character sheet for Patrick Club.

[Bartmanhomer]

Patrick Club
Drow, 1st Level Male Fighter
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 1d10+3 (13 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 square)
Armor Class: 16 (+5 Dex, +! padded) touch 15, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+5
Attack: Rapier +6 melee (1d6+5/18-20) and Hand Crossbow +6 ranged (1d4/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attack: Poison, Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities: Drow traits, spell resistance 12
Saves: Fort +5 Ref +5 Will +0 (+2 against spells and spell-like abilities)
Abilities: Str: 18 Dex: 20 Con: 16 Int: 12 Wis: 10 Cha: 12
Skills: Climb +7, Craft +7, Handle Animals +3, Intimidate +3, Jump +7, Swim +7, Swim +6, Listen +2, Search +7, Spot +2
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
Challenge Rating: 2
Alignment: Neutral Good

So what do you think of my character?

[ZamielVanWeber]

What are your Str, Dex, Con etc? It appears you have a Strength of 20, but you cannot have that as a 1st level drow.
CR does not matter to a PC, but ECL does. Yours is 3 btw.
Why padded? At level 3 with that defense toy will want every bit of defense that can be spared.

[GilesTheCleric]

Do note that your rapier won't have +5 to damage: " You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage." (PHB 120).

[Aleolus]

Your damage would only be +4, Weapon Finesse only lets you add Dex to your to-hit roll, you still use Str for damage.

EDIT: He stated earlier he has a Str 18 and a Dex 20

[ZamielVanWeber]

With 18 Str why bother with weapon finesse? It gives +1 to hit for a feat.

[Aleolus]

Because he can have that 18 str, then pick up a ton of dex enhancing things to boost his attack far more than just the +1

[ZamielVanWeber]

Because he can have that 18 str, then pick up a ton of dex enhancing things to boost his attack far more than just the +1

At which point his damage is still awful. Consistently hitting for nothing still yields nothing.

[Marlowe]

I'm so confused. How can you begin to learn to Play D&D without a group? How did these stats get generated? You don't just "choose" to have 3 18s and 3 tens and then modify by race. :smalleek: Why is the "character sheet" written as a monster stat block? And what really loses me is how a Fighter who fights for the thrill of fighting has children that are THE SAME LEVEL AS HIM? That means he's gone, what? Seventeen years without gaining experience?

[radthemad4]

How did these stats get generated? You don't just "choose" to have 3 18s and 3 tens and then modify by race. :smalleek:4d6b3? What... it's not impossible?
Why is the "character sheet" written as a monster stat block?It's as valid a method as any. Also, more forum friendly I think.
And what really loses me is how a Fighter who fights for the thrill of fighting has children that are THE SAME LEVEL AS HIM? That means he's gone, what? Seventeen years without gaining experience?Actually, his kids are higher level than him.


I'm already one step ahead of you. Patrick Club age is in the adulthood stage. He does have a family. His wife Carrie Club Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Cleric. His son, Stan Club Male Drow Level 1 Fighter/Level 1 Rogue. And her daughter Bonnie Club. Female Drow Level 1 Fighter/ Level 1 Wizard. He was raised in a very bad family. The reason why he want to become a fighter because he enjoy fighting a lot. I hope that covers it.

Patrick Club
Drow, 1st Level Male Fighter

Either that, or they're Gestalt.

I suspect level loss, raise dead, and/or shenanigans involving those planes with differing rates of time.


How can you begin to learn to Play D&D without a group?Well, you can learn to play by just reading the rules. It's a lot slower without experienced players pointing out stuff and/or offering helpful advice mid game, but it's the only option if you don't have a group but want to start one anyway. Besides, I think he's planning on running a game for himself:


No need to apologize. While you can play with D&D by yourself, (making characters can be fun, and you do learn some of the mechanics in the process. I've also made up characters in the past and pitted them against monsters, moving them both and rolling both sides like I was playing a game of chess against myself,) to truly play it, you need other people. Think of it like cops and robbers, but with rules to prevent the "I shot you!" "No, you didn't!"

You can usually find a group at a local gaming shop. Or you can play online in Play by Post games here or at other websites like Myth-Weavers.


Really? I can play D&D by myself? That will make my life a lot easier. Thank you. :)

[Troacctid]

Because he can have that 18 str, then pick up a ton of dex enhancing things to boost his attack far more than just the +1

Or he could pick up Strength enhancers instead and do the same thing while also boosting damage and saving himself a feat. Seems more efficient.

[Aleolus]

I don't know. Maybe I'm off base here, but it seems to me like raising the accuracy of your attacks is more important than just raising the damage. I mean, take two warriors, identical in most ways, but one focuses on hitting as hard as possible, while the other focuses on hitting as often as possible. One has a super high Dex, Weapon Finesse, and a bunch of other attributes to boost his damage, allowing him to hit at a +35, lets say (just to pick a number). The other has a super high Str, Power Attack and a bunch of things that boost damage. He gets +45 for damage, but only hits at a +8. Against the same enemy, with AC 25, the accuracy based warrior will hit 19/20 times, dealing 1d6+3ish damage each time, assuming no crits, for a total of 19d6+57. The other one will hit 3/20 times, dealing 2d6+45 each hit, for a total of 6d6+135. More actual damage, but also a lot of rounds doing nothing because of missing

[Troacctid]

I don't know. Maybe I'm off base here, but it seems to me like raising the accuracy of your attacks is more important than just raising the damage.

Strength improves your accuracy too. Focusing on Dexterity improves your initiative and stealth, but it doesn't give you a better chance to hit than the guy who focused on Strength.

In your scenario, the Power Attacker can take a -11 penalty to hit and still have the exact same chance to hit as the finesse fighter, except he's dealing 2d6+34 damage each time instead of 1d6+3.

[ZamielVanWeber]

DR also messed with Dex builds more than Str builds. If that enemy had DR 10/good and you could not pen it the Dex build would fail to do damage over 95% of the time (including some crits) where the Str build would do damage every hit.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm sorry I edit and made a few modifications with the character sheets.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Skills: Climb +7, Craft +7, Handle Animals +3, Intimidate +3, Jump +7, Swim +7, Swim +6, Listen +2, Search +7, Spot +2

I am trying to break down your skills and here is what I have:

Climb: 4 mod, 3 ranks
Craft: 1 mod, 6 ranks
Handle Animal: 1 mod, 2 ranks
Intimidate: 1 mod, 2 ranks
Jump: 4 mod, 3 ranks
Swim: 4 mod, 3 ranks
Listen: 2 racial, 0 mod, 0 ranks
Search: 2 racial, 1 mod, 4 cc ranks
Spot: 2 racial, 0 mod, 0 ranks
(You listed Swim twice, so I just took the higher value)

So some things:
1) You have taken over the limit for Craft, which is 4, and Search, which is 2. You are a level 1 character for everything but experience calculation.
2) Adjusting for this, you have spent 21 of your 12 skill points, so you need to remove some.

[Mystral]

Not sure if OP is serious or not.

[Pluto!]

You aren't going to play anything until you have a group.

Either get some friends together, read all the rulebooks real thoroughly and start a game (if you're the one putting the game together, odds are that you'll be DMing), or try to join in with an organized game through a local gaming store. If you're going the latter route, my experience is that Pathfinder is more common, but they're basically the same.

On the Drow topic, yeah... in D&D 3e, expect to die in the first fight. PF is quite a bit friendlier to Drow, though.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everybody. I'm bumping this thread for an update. Just to let everybody know I'm finally going to play Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 edition with my friend and other people on this forum. I finally going to play my character Patrick Club.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Bon courage and have fun. Got the tidbits about the build ironed out?

[Bartmanhomer]

Bon courage and have fun. Got the tidbits about the build ironed out?
Yes. Here's my Patrick Club sheet. Http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=924134

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, so we got some immediate problems:

1: Are you ECL 3 or 5? That is important.
2: Full plate caps your Dex bonus to AC at +1. This can be upped, but it means your AC is 19, not 22. If you can afford full plate may I recommend mithril chain shirt instead? It would give you 18 AC but leave room for Dex improvements and has no armor check penalty and weighs very little.

You have failed to record your base saves or BAB and I have no idea what they would be since I am not sure as to your level.

[Bartmanhomer]

Okay, so we got some immediate problems:

1: Are you ECL 3 or 5? That is important.
2: Full plate caps your Dex bonus to AC at +1. This can be upped, but it means your AC is 19, not 22. If you can afford full plate may I recommend mithril chain shirt instead? It would give you 18 AC but leave room for Dex improvements and has no armor check penalty and weighs very little.

You have failed to record your base saves or BAB and I have no idea what they would be since I am not sure as to your level.

Well Patrick Club start with Level 1 that promotes him to a level adjustment +2 which makes him a level 3. and I fix the base attack and the saving throws. Also I added a studded armor and fix the Armor class.

[Red Fel]

Well Patrick Club start with Level 1 that promotes him to a level adjustment +2 which makes him a level 3. and I fix the base attack and the saving throws. Also I added a studded armor and fix the Armor class.

Level Adjustment doesn't mean you gain two levels. It means the opposite - you are treated as two levels higher than you really are. In essence, it means that you're two levels lower than everyone else.

This is also why a character with an LA can't play in a level 1 campaign unless LA buyoff is being used.

Now, if this complicates your calculations of BAB and the like, well, that's why I was recommending a simpler character before. Basically, here is how an LA +2 character works:
Your character is level 3. If you cannot start with a level 3 character, scrap him and start over.
Write down all of your Drow stuff on your character sheet. Do your stats, add modifiers, include racial abilities. You also take your level 1 feat.
You take one level of whatever class you choose. In your case, that's Fighter. So you are a level 1 Fighter. You take what a level 1 Fighter gets: +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will, and a Bonus Feat.
So, yeah. Your BAB is +1, not +3. You calculate your HP as a level 1 Fighter. (So 36 sounds pretty high.) You calculate your skills as a level 1 Fighter, so that's 2 + Int, which is way less than what you have. You get one feat from being level 1, one Fighter Bonus Feat from Fighter levels, and that's it, feat-wise.

You have a lot of stuff on your sheet that isn't supposed to be there, is the point.

[Bartmanhomer]

Level Adjustment doesn't mean you gain two levels. It means the opposite - you are treated as two levels higher than you really are. In essence, it means that you're two levels lower than everyone else.

This is also why a character with an LA can't play in a level 1 campaign unless LA buyoff is being used.

Now, if this complicates your calculations of BAB and the like, well, that's why I was recommending a simpler character before. Basically, here is how an LA +2 character works:
Your character is level 3. If you cannot start with a level 3 character, scrap him and start over.
Write down all of your Drow stuff on your character sheet. Do your stats, add modifiers, include racial abilities. You also take your level 1 feat.
You take one level of whatever class you choose. In your case, that's Fighter. So you are a level 1 Fighter. You take what a level 1 Fighter gets: +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will, and a Bonus Feat.
So, yeah. Your BAB is +1, not +3. You calculate your HP as a level 1 Fighter. (So 36 sounds pretty high.) You calculate your skills as a level 1 Fighter, so that's 2 + Int, which is way less than what you have. You get one feat from being level 1, one Fighter Bonus Feat from Fighter levels, and that's it, feat-wise.

You have a lot of stuff on your sheet that isn't supposed to be there, is the point.
I got one thing to say....................D'oh! :mad:

[ZamielVanWeber]

May I recommend lesser drow? You are still a drow and get some goodies, but it is LA +0 so you lose nothing.

[Bartmanhomer]

May I recommend lesser drow? You are still a drow and get some goodies, but it is LA +0 so you lose nothing.

No thanks. I'm just going to stick with what I have. :sigh:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Alright but what level is your campaign starting at? If it is 1 then drow is, by the rules, not a permissible choice.

[Bartmanhomer]

Alright but what level is your campaign starting at? If it is 1 then drow is, by the rules, not a permissible choice.

My very first campaign is starting at Level 3.

[ZamielVanWeber]

My very first campaign is starting at Level 3.

I will warn you now that you will probably die a lot. You have 14 HP which means an ogre (a cr 3 enemy) will put you into the negatives 33% of the times it attacks you and has a 36% chance of taking you out in two attacks. You will find that is the norm at this point. I would recommend talking to the DM about lowering the level adjustment of drow by 1. Comparing it to some of the juicier +2s such as Saint or Half-Fey or even less cool ones such Half-Vampire drow comes out looking pretty bad. That will give you some more HP just to keep alive and also bump up your BAB and give you another feat so you feel more relevant.

[Bartmanhomer]

I will warn you now that you will probably die a lot. You have 14 HP which means an ogre (a cr 3 enemy) will put you into the negatives 33% of the times it attacks you and has a 36% chance of taking you out in two attacks. You will find that is the norm at this point. I would recommend talking to the DM about lowering the level adjustment of drow by 1. Comparing it to some of the juicier +2s such as Saint or Half-Fey or even less cool ones such Half-Vampire drow comes out looking pretty bad. That will give you some more HP just to keep alive and also bump up your BAB and give you another feat so you feel more relevant.
Oh wait a minute I forgot that My DM is playing house rules which means that my character will start a lesser drow at level 3 and get all of the normal drow abilities at level 6.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That... makes a huge difference.

Some questions: First what books are available to you?
Second what do you want out of your character mechanically?
Third you have max hit points: is that intentional or are you really lucky?

[Bartmanhomer]

That... makes a huge difference.

Some questions: First what books are available to you?
Second what do you want out of your character mechanically?
Third you have max hit points: is that intentional or are you really lucky?

Books? I don't needs books. I get all the information on the Internet. Second, I don't know what you mean about wa ting out my character mechanically. Can you please elaborate a bit more so I could understand please. And finally I just got lucky because my DM allow to have maximum hit points through the entire game.

[Red Fel]

Books? I don't needs books. I get all the information on the Internet.

The reason Zamiel asks about books isn't to find out what you have. It's to find out what sources you're allowed to use. I own Tome of Battle, for example, but if my DM doesn't allow it in-game, fat lot of good that does me.


Second, I don't know what you mean about wa ting out my character mechanically. Can you please elaborate a bit more so I could understand please.

It means, very simply: What do you want your character to do? Hit things hard? Move around smartly? Use tactics? Use spells? Disable opponents quickly? Deal large amounts of HP damage? Use poisons? Use trip/disarm maneuvers?

That's what "What do you want out of your character mechanically?" means. It means, "What do you want your character to be able to do well?"

[Bartmanhomer]

The reason Zamiel asks about books isn't to find out what you have. It's to find out what sources you're allowed to use. I own Tome of Battle, for example, but if my DM doesn't allow it in-game, fat lot of good that does me.



It means, very simply: What do you want your character to do? Hit things hard? Move around smartly? Use tactics? Use spells? Disable opponents quickly? Deal large amounts of HP damage? Use poisons? Use trip/disarm maneuvers?

That's what "What do you want out of your character mechanically?" means. It means, "What do you want your character to be able to do well?"

I believe it's the Player Handbook. And the type of character I want to do is go melee and ranged attacks.

[Bartmanhomer]

Anyway I think my character will do well on my first D&D game. :smile:

[Bartmanhomer]

OK I updated my Patrick Club character sheet.

www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=924134

I'm having fun playing my first Dungeons and Dragons Version 3.5 Edition adventure. My party and I going to fight gnolls. :smile:

[Red Fel]

OK I updated my Patrick Club character sheet.

www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=924134

I'm having fun playing my first Dungeons and Dragons Version 3.5 Edition adventure. My party and I going to fight gnolls. :smile:

Okay, let's have a look.

I'm going to ignore WBL on your gear, because I don't have those numbers in front of me, but you have a lot of +1 items, don't you? And a Cloak of Resistance? That's a lot of money.

So, you're level 3. Does that mean that your party's ECL is 5 (you have 3 Fighter levels and a +2 LA) or that your party's ECL is 3 (you have 1 Fighter level and +1 LA)?

In either event, you have too many feats. A level 1 Fighter gets two feats - one that every first-level character gets, and one Fighter Bonus Feat. A level 3 Fighter has three feats - the two I just mentioned, plus a Fighter Bonus Feat from Fighter 2. You have four feats, and I'm not clear how.

You also have a +2 Misc bonus to AC, not sure how that happened.

On your skills, Handle Animal is Trained Only. This means that you can only use the Handle Animal skill if you have skill ranks in it. You do not, so you don't get to enjoy your +1 Cha bonus to that skill, because you can't roll it at all. Keep that in mind.

Also, you have Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, which seems like a waste. Rapier explicitly states that it cannot be wielded in two hands for a Str bonus, which means you can't Power Attack with it; you can, however, Finesse with it, so you're better off just doing that. Speaking of, why haven't you put your Dex (+4) in place of your Str (+2) on your melee total attack bonus? That's the reason you got Finesse, right? And why haven't you added your weapon's +1 enhancement bonus to your attack numbers?

All that said: Have fun fighting gnolls!

[Bartmanhomer]

Okay, let's have a look.

I'm going to ignore WBL on your gear, because I don't have those numbers in front of me, but you have a lot of +1 items, don't you? And a Cloak of Resistance? That's a lot of money.

So, you're level 3. Does that mean that your party's ECL is 5 (you have 3 Fighter levels and a +2 LA) or that your party's ECL is 3 (you have 1 Fighter level and +1 LA)?

In either event, you have too many feats. A level 1 Fighter gets two feats - one that every first-level character gets, and one Fighter Bonus Feat. A level 3 Fighter has three feats - the two I just mentioned, plus a Fighter Bonus Feat from Fighter 2. You have four feats, and I'm not clear how.

You also have a +2 Misc bonus to AC, not sure how that happened.

On your skills, Handle Animal is Trained Only. This means that you can only use the Handle Animal skill if you have skill ranks in it. You do not, so you don't get to enjoy your +1 Cha bonus to that skill, because you can't roll it at all. Keep that in mind.

Also, you have Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, which seems like a waste. Rapier explicitly states that it cannot be wielded in two hands for a Str bonus, which means you can't Power Attack with it; you can, however, Finesse with it, so you're better off just doing that. Speaking of, why haven't you put your Dex (+4) in place of your Str (+2) on your melee total attack bonus? That's the reason you got Finesse, right? And why haven't you added your weapon's +1 enhancement bonus to your attack numbers?

All that said: Have fun fighting gnolls!

Well my my party are all on level 3. Also the reason why I difn't place my +4 dex in place of my +2 Str is because I want a fast fighter. Put my DM suggest it the most appropriate stats for my character. The misc bonus for the AC is for my +1 Masterwork Studded Leather Armor and my +1 Masterwork buckler shield. I believe that covers everything unless if I'm miss something which I didn't mentioned.

[Red Fel]

Well my my party are all on level 3.

Okay, now we discussed this. If your party is ECL 3, then your ECL 3 character is a level 1 Fighter. That means your numbers are off - your BAB, saves, skills should all be lower. You should also have only two feats, not four.


Also the reason why I difn't place my +4 dex in place of my +2 Str is because I want a fast fighter.

This sentence makes no sense and doesn't appear to be relevant to anything. What does this have to do with anything?


Put my DM suggest it the most appropriate stats for my character.

I don't even know what this means.


The misc bonus for the AC is for my +1 Masterwork Studded Leather Armor and my +1 Masterwork buckler shield. I believe that covers everything unless if I'm miss something which I didn't mentioned.

Except the math is wrong. Look at your AC equation. You start with 10 base. You get +4 from armor, +1 from shield, +4 from Dex, and +2 from "Misc."

Here's the problem. A suit of studded leather armor is normally +3, a buckler normally +1. Having both of them as +1 items increases that bonus. So in your equation, the +4 from armor includes the +1 from it being magic armor. Your shield bonus should be listed as +2, not +1, for the same reason. The +2 "Misc" bonus shouldn't be there at all.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well dexterity is depends on how fast the character will move. In other words that character should attack first depending on his/her dexterity.since Patrick initiative is +8 thanks with the improved initiative feat. Second, what I meant is that my DM put the appropriate ability score with my character

[Red Fel]

Well dexterity is depends on how fast the character will move. In other words that character should attack first depending on his/her dexterity.since Patrick initiative is +8 thanks with the improved initiative feat.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether you use Weapon Finesse or not. You will receive all the other benefits of Dex as well as Weapon Finesse. There is no point in using Str instead of Dex as your to-hit, when your Dex is higher.


Second, what I meant is that my DM put the appropriate ability score with my character

No, he clearly did not. What I mean is that, while I'm sure he entered the information, he clearly didn't enter the correct information. You probably want to check with him to make sure it all adds up correctly.

You know, unless you enjoy double-dipping your bonuses. You're technically getting way more than you're supposed to, but if your DM approved it, you could simply shrug and run with it.

[Bartmanhomer]

Oh OK then. My DM use a 32 point buy system also as I mentioned before my DM is using house rules to let me play a lesser drow to level 3 to playing a pure drow to level 6.

[Red Fel]

Oh OK then. My DM use a 32 point buy system also as I mentioned before my DM is using house rules to let me play a lesser drow to level 3 to playing a pure drow to level 6.

Assuming you're doing that (which makes no sense to me) you still have one feat too many, wealth far beyond what I would expect for a level 3 character, extra mystery AC points, and an inexplicable refusal to use one of your feats.

But again, if it's just your DM giving you freebies, take the bonuses and run with them.

[Bartmanhomer]

Assuming you're doing that (which makes no sense to me) you still have one feat too many, wealth far beyond what I would expect for a level 3 character, extra mystery AC points, and an inexplicable refusal to use one of your feats.

But again, if it's just your DM giving you freebies, take the bonuses and run with them.
My DM is being fair to me so it's his call to see what's best for my character.

[ComaVision]

In either event, you have too many feats. A level 1 Fighter gets two feats - one that every first-level character gets, and one Fighter Bonus Feat. A level 3 Fighter has three feats - the two I just mentioned, plus a Fighter Bonus Feat from Fighter 2. You have four feats, and I'm not clear how.


Red, buddy, characters get a feat at level 3. Four feats is correct.

EDIT: @Bartmanhomer: What Red Fel is trying to tell you is that your attack bonus for the rapier should be Base Attack Bonus + Dex Mod + Enhancement Bonus. Weapon Finesse replaces the Str Mod with Dex Mod for attack bonus calculation.

[Bartmanhomer]

Red, buddy, characters get a feat at level 3. Four feats is correct.

EDIT: @Bartmanhomer: What Red Fel is trying to tell you is that your attack bonus for the rapier should be Base Attack Bonus + Dex Mod + Enhancement Bonus. Weapon Finesse replaces the Str Mod with Dex Mod for attack bonus calculation.
I'm aware of that. After all Red Fel was the one who recommend me to use that feat.

[Red Fel]

Red, buddy, characters get a feat at level 3. Four feats is correct.

...

... Crappit, you're right. Why was I thinking every four levels instead of every three? Yeah, I was off on that one.

[ComaVision]

I'm aware of that. After all Red Fel was the one who recommend me to use that feat.

So why is it wrong on your sheet?

[Bartmanhomer]

So why is it wrong on your sheet?

It is? Are you sure?

[ComaVision]

It is? Are you sure?

I am sure that when I looked at the updated link you gave in your post yesterday it says +5 for your rapier's attack bonus when it should be +8, yes.

[Bartmanhomer]

I am sure that when I looked at the updated link you gave in your post yesterday it says +5 for your rapier's attack bonus when it should be +8, yes.

Ok. I fix it. Thanks for the correction. :smile: