Bladelock / Hexblade Build

[Jayzan]

I'm building a Warlock for a new campaign soon and I've heard about Bladelocks (Hexblade I think their called as well). The idea really interests me but I've been unable to find out what I need to take in order to make a successful Bladelock build. I do know that obviously you need to take Pact of the Blade and I've decided to take The Fiend for my patron. Additionally I'm leaning towards Variant Human for the War Caster feat at 1st level but the +2 to Charisma for Half-Elves looks really nice as well. What is necessary to take in order to make a successful Bladelock. Is there anything I should change?

[Rusvul]

Bladelocks often take Fighter at level one for a fighting style and, more importantly, CON save proficiency. Variant Human is common, with the feats taken usually being Warcaster/Resilient (CON) or Great Weapon Master/Polearm Master. I'm not sure which you take at first level and which you take at fourth, but usually those are the top priority feats.

[Jayzan]

Bladelocks often take Fighter at level one for a fighting style and, more importantly, CON save proficiency. Variant Human is common, with the feats taken usually being Warcaster/Resilient (CON) or Great Weapon Master/Polearm Master. I'm not sure which you take at first level and which you take at fourth, but usually those are the top priority feats.

I was not aware of taking Fighter at lv 1. After looking in the PHB Dueling seems like a great benefit since I would like to use a finesse weapon. Is it worth getting the extra attack from Fighter at lv 5? I think I'll go for the Warcaster/Resilient combo rather than GWM/Polearm.

[Rusvul]

GWM/Polearm has higher DPR than dual wielding or finesse weapons, though you can get a better DEX save and AC if you use finesse- Still, generally it's not worth it, if damage output is your priority.

I didn't mean to say that you would take Warcaster AND resilient or GWM AND Polearm Master, rather that taking one of the first two and one of the second two seems to be the norm.

[Jayzan]

GWM/Polearm has higher DPR than dual wielding or finesse weapons, though you can get a better DEX save and AC if you use finesse- Still, generally it's not worth it, if damage output is your priority.

I didn't mean to say that you would take Warcaster AND resilient or GWM AND Polearm Master, rather that taking one of the first two and one of the second two seems to be the norm.

Oh ok so one of each. Alright I check out the other feats. Damage priority is important but at the same time you can't do damage if your dead. I also like the idea of prioritizing DEX, it's a very good stat in 5e.

[bid]

Is it worth getting the extra attack from Fighter at lv 5?
Extra attack does not stack with thirsting blade, so it only frees an invocation. The only other useful thing you could get that way is 2 ASI and 3 level-1 slots if you go EK 6.

Warcaster is almost mandatory for a bladelock if you use a shield. This makes the Con proficiency excessive. You start as fighter if you use great weapons and have a free hand.

[Foxhound438]

if you want you can take polearm master for a bonus action attack, gets a bit more mileage out of hex and lifedrinker. i'd recommend starting at fighter, you get good saves, a fighting style, and heavy armor proficiency in case you don't want to be a dex build. variant human would be fine for the feat, since you probably want to go 2 or 3 in fighter for action surge and maybe improved critical (or whatever else), reducing the number of ASI's you get. either way, don't put too much into str too quickly, if you can get gauntlets of ogre strength or similar that covers str for you. if you get those you'll want some con in there. war caster isn't super important if you start fighter, since you get proficiency in con saves. anyways, that's my advice on that

[Jayzan]

if you want you can take polearm master for a bonus action attack, gets a bit more mileage out of hex and lifedrinker. i'd recommend starting at fighter, you get good saves, a fighting style, and heavy armor proficiency in case you don't want to be a dex build. variant human would be fine for the feat, since you probably want to go 2 or 3 in fighter for action surge and maybe improved critical (or whatever else), reducing the number of ASI's you get. either way, don't put too much into str too quickly, if you can get gauntlets of ogre strength or similar that covers str for you. if you get those you'll want some con in there. war caster isn't super important if you start fighter, since you get proficiency in con saves. anyways, that's my advice on that

I think I'll go with just 1 level of Fighter because I want to get into my Warlock ASAP and I don't like Fighter that much to begin with. The only reason to take fighter at level 1 is the Con save anyways, at least as I see it. The improved critical is appealing but not necessary, considering that I'll only get one attack every turn and not 2-3 like some other classes.

[Rusvul]

Ummm... No, you get 2 attacks per round. There's an Invocation (available at level 5, has Blade Pact as a prereq) that grants a second attack. It doesn't stack with Extra Attack though.

[Foxhound438]

I think I'll go with just 1 level of Fighter because I want to get into my Warlock ASAP and I don't like Fighter that much to begin with. The only reason to take fighter at level 1 is the Con save anyways, at least as I see it. The improved critical is appealing but not necessary, considering that I'll only get one attack every turn and not 2-3 like some other classes.

you will get 3 attacks if you go polearm master. 2 because of thirsting, at a minimum. either way you get double hex damage if you crit, so it's definitely not bad, not to mention action surge is pretty broken. anyway you can go 1 in fighter and then go warlock for however long after before returning to fighter levels, so you still can be a warlock at L2.

[D.U.P.A.]

What about taking armor feats? Sure, that may take until level 8 to get heavy armor if you are not VHuman or Mountain Dwarf, but then you can easily bump Str for heavy weapons.

[Foxhound438]

What about taking armor feats? Sure, that may take until level 8 to get heavy armor if you are not VHuman or Mountain Dwarf, but then you can easily bump Str for heavy weapons.

that's pretty wasteful compared to just having all armor from fighters

[Rummy]

I recommend Str over Dex. Bladelock really benefits from heavy weapons. Also, be warned that both polearm butt attack and hex take bonus actions. I prefer Vuman with Heavy Armor Master. The three points of DR synergizes well with fiend temp HP and fiendish vigor temp HP. Also, it makes Armor of Agathys more potent.

[Foxhound438]

I recommend Str over Dex. Bladelock really benefits from heavy weapons. Also, be warned that both polearm butt attack and hex take bonus actions. I prefer Vuman with Heavy Armor Master. The three points of DR synergizes well with fiend temp HP and fiendish vigor temp HP. Also, it makes Armor of Agathys more potent.

the three dr really falls off once enemies are averaging around 20 damage per hit, not to mention that magic ignores it. yes you would have to eat your bonus action to hex something and not get the extra attack that turn, but against a thicker foe it will help keep your damage up there; not to mention that with lifedrinker your damage would go up even without hex (2 gs attacks with hex, +5 str, +5 cha = 6d6+20=41, or 45 with great weapon fighting style vs 2 glaive attacks + 1 butt attack, no hex, +5 str, +5 cha = 2d10+1d4+30 = 43.5, or 45.6 with GWS)

[JakOfAllTirades]

that's pretty wasteful compared to just having all armor from fighters

That really depends on your priorities. If you don't want to slow down your casting progression, then multiclassing would be the wasteful option. When I'm running a BladeLock I prefer to protect my character with spells rather than armor, so I prefer not to multiclass early. The Warlock spell list (especially FeyLocks) have excellent defensive options; I've gone through quite a few combats unscathed, light armor notwithstanding.

[Foxhound438]

That really depends on your priorities. If you don't want to slow down your casting progression, then multiclassing would be the wasteful option. When I'm running a BladeLock I prefer to protect my character with spells rather than armor, so I prefer not to multiclass early. The Warlock spell list (especially FeyLocks) have excellent defensive options; I've gone through quite a few combats unscathed, light armor notwithstanding.

right, but that's not throwing 2 feats at a problem that doesn't need to exist. being one less level caster for con saves, fighting style, and the armor you need for a non-dex build is much more efficient than spending your first three levels with an AC of 12 and 4-7 at 14, and then still not having a good con save bonus until level 12.

[bid]

When going Dex, light armor is enough at start. A later fighter MC will offer medium armor which is all that's needed.

[Foxhound438]

When going Dex, light armor is enough at start. A later fighter MC will offer medium armor which is all that's needed.

i'm talking about a str build, since that's where the heavy (for GWM) and polearm (for PAM) weapons are at. there aren't really any feats that give more damage to dex builds, the only one that comes close is dual weilding, but you only get one pact weapon so lifedrinker wouldn't apply to the extra attack.

[bid]

i'm talking about a str build, since that's where the heavy (for GWM) and polearm (for PAM) weapons are at.
Well... that's not quite the topic, I think.


After looking in the PHB Dueling seems like a great benefit since I would like to use a finesse weapon.

[Foxhound438]

Well... that's not quite the topic, I think.

it's my recommendation, since finesse warlock really can't keep up with just eldrich blast.

[Jayzan]

Thanks to everyone who has commented! This has been really helpful! I've looked over a lot and I feel that a STR build is going to be better in the long run (the feat combos look appealing). I like the idea of maxing DMG and it seems to scale better (at least as I see it) if I make a STR based Bladelock. I'm ok with slowing my spell casting abilities down just because the CON save for Fighters would come into play quite quickly and I would also get every armor proficiency. So from what I've heard If I run a STR based Bladelock with Vhuman STR is my main stat with secondary to CHA?

[Tanarii]

Is your goal to be a fighter that buffs himself with spells (also known as a GISH), or a caster/melee hybrid, or a caster with a strong melee option & OA?

In order, those builds are:
1) Str & Con primary, secondary Cha. Fighter 1 then warlock to at least 5. Then you can choose to do up to two more Fighter levels at some point and still get 9th level Mystic Arcanum. Or stick with 1 for faster spell progression and ASIs. Wear heavy armor and wield a two handed weapon. Use only buff/defensive spells. Avoid spells that require attack rolls/saves. Get in melee and stay there.

2) Str & Cha primary, Dex & Con secondary. Warlock all the way. Use a two handed pact blade and EB. Mix and match range, melee, and other close attacks. Use temp hp buff spells before going in to combat.

3) Dex & Cha primary, Con secondary. Warlock all the way. use a rapier pact blade, primarily for OAs but also whenever you can get advantage on your melee attack. Otherwise EB and other offensive spells.

[bid]

If you go with GWM, you need to cap Str to use -5/+10 efficiently.

If you choose PAM, anything is fine really. I would start vuman fighter Str16, Con14, Cha14 with PAM and sentinel at level 5 (lock4). Only push Cha if you use EB as ranged.

In both cases you don't need really warcaster unless your DM rules otherwise since you can hold the weapon 1-handed while casting.

[Tanarii]

GWM eventually becomes a wasted feat for a Blade Warlock. You have a high enough static modifier and bonus damage dice at high levels that -5 to hit isn't worth it for the +10 damage.

Of you aren't planning to reach high levels, that obviously becomes a non-issue.

[Foxhound438]

Thanks to everyone who has commented! This has been really helpful! I've looked over a lot and I feel that a STR build is going to be better in the long run (the feat combos look appealing). I like the idea of maxing DMG and it seems to scale better (at least as I see it) if I make a STR based Bladelock. I'm ok with slowing my spell casting abilities down just because the CON save for Fighters would come into play quite quickly and I would also get every armor proficiency. So from what I've heard If I run a STR based Bladelock with Vhuman STR is my main stat with secondary to CHA?

if you're going to have easy access to magic items of your choice (some DM's will allow you to just buy or quest), STR would be taken care of by gauntlets of ogre strength and scaling giant belts, but otherwise the first two ASI's should go to str, followed by 2 ASI in CHA, and if you only go one in fighter you'll have one more to put in either con or war caster at some point if you reach a total level 20. you can take war caster earlier if you're really worried about losing spells, and booming blade or hold person as an opportunity attack is good at any point you can have it. particularly good with polearm master OA'ing on entry to a 10 foot radius, with a hold spell it just ends their turn if they fail the save.

[Jayzan]

if you're going to have easy access to magic items of your choice (some DM's will allow you to just buy or quest), STR would be taken care of by gauntlets of ogre strength and scaling giant belts, but otherwise the first two ASI's should go to str, followed by 2 ASI in CHA, and if you only go one in fighter you'll have one more to put in either con or war caster at some point if you reach a total level 20. you can take war caster earlier if you're really worried about losing spells, and booming blade or hold person as an opportunity attack is good at any point you can have it. particularly good with polearm master OA'ing on entry to a 10 foot radius, with a hold spell it just ends their turn if they fail the save.


I have no idea on what magic items ill be receiving in the campaign but I know that magic items won't be able to be purchased (in general). So I'm not counting on the ogre strength gauntlets. I don't really see the need to go past Fighter 3 (and that's pushing it a little for me). The two reasons that appeal to me for taking fighter are the CON proficiency save and heavy armor. Now if I take Fighter at first level do I also need War Caster? The proficiency AND advantage seem a little repetitive but if I'm wielding a two-handed weapon is there any way to cast spells with somatic components?

[Tanarii]

Two handed weapons don't interfere with components. It's not an action to change your grip as needed to holding the weapon in one hand. Its not even a object interaction, so you can do it as often as needed.

Warcaster isn't really a needed feat for Fighter 1 / warlocks IMO. Advantage is really nice, but it's not critical. Unless you're using Hex instead of Armor of Agathys for some reason.

[Jayzan]

If you go with GWM, you need to cap Str to use -5/+10 efficiently.

If you choose PAM, anything is fine really. I would start vuman fighter Str16, Con14, Cha14 with PAM and sentinel at level 5 (lock4). Only push Cha if you use EB as ranged.



GWM eventually becomes a wasted feat for a Blade Warlock. You have a high enough static modifier and bonus damage dice at high levels that -5 to hit isn't worth it for the +10 damage.

PAM seems a little bit more appealing to me because I can use an additional attack every turn rather than only having another attack when I score a critical or kill an enemy and it synergies with life drinker.

[Jayzan]

Two handed weapons don't interfere with components. It's not an action to change your grip as needed to holding the weapon in one hand. Its not even a object interaction, so you can do it as often as needed.

Warcaster isn't really a needed feat for Fighter 1 / warlocks IMO. Advantage is really nice, but it's not critical. Unless you're using Hex instead of Armor of Agathys for some reason.

Perfect! That frees up War Caster so I can take PAM at lv 1.

[Rummy]

Are you rolling stats or doing a point buy? If point buy, then Heavy Armor Master nets you 16s in Str, Cha, and Con. Having a +3 in Con makes up for the d8 vs d10 in hit dice for your warlock levels.

Also, realistically, how far do you think you will play? I've played DnD for over 25 years and the farthest I've ever leveled is 15, and that includes 4e where the levels went to 30. Basically, for the overwhelming majority of people, power at lower levels is much better than power at levels you never actually play. HAM is the most powerful feat in the game for levels 1-4. You will be a melee God for the first two levels. I have seen this in play many times. At level one you are the best. At level two you are second behind only the brown bear moon Druid. 5e is all about not dying in the early levels, and HAM is the best at that.

At higher levels, the marginal utility does taper off, but even -3 to a 20 point hit is a 15% decrement... That is non-trivial. Also, many higher level creatures rely on lots of attacks and -3 to each is fantastic.

[Jayzan]

Are you rolling stats or doing a point buy? If point buy, then Heavy Armor Master nets you 16s in Str, Cha, and Con. Having a +3 in Con makes up for the d8 vs d10 in hit dice for your warlock levels.

Also, realistically, how far do you think you will play? I've played DnD for over 25 years and the farthest I've ever leveled is 15, and that includes 4e where the levels went to 30. Basically, for the overwhelming majority of people, power at lower levels is much better than power at levels you never actually play. HAM is the most powerful feat in the game for levels 1-4. You will be a melee God for the first two levels. I have seen this in play many times. At level one you are the best. At level two you are second behind only the brown bear moon Druid. 5e is all about not dying in the early levels, and HAM is the best at that.

At higher levels, the marginal utility does taper off, but even -3 to a 20 point hit is a 15% decrement... That is non-trivial. Also, many higher level creatures rely on lots of attacks and -3 to each is fantastic.

The DM has decided on a point by system and I did look into HAM when I was scrolling through the feats. It looks amazing for low levels but from what I know we're going to scale a little faster than normal which is why I was against it. I'll consider it again though because if I did take HAM at lv 1 I could have PAM and Resilience/War Caster all by level 8 and if a lot of high level monsters make a series of attacks every turn a -3 to each sounds fantastic.

[Foxhound438]

Are you rolling stats or doing a point buy? If point buy, then Heavy Armor Master nets you 16s in Str, Cha, and Con. Having a +3 in Con makes up for the d8 vs d10 in hit dice for your warlock levels.



pretty sure you would have 3 -1 stats then, you might want a 14 and a 10 somewhere for safety... remember also that HAM doesn't apply to magical weapons or affects. a lot of times HAM is just dead weight because of that.

[Foxhound438]

I have no idea on what magic items ill be receiving in the campaign but I know that magic items won't be able to be purchased (in general). So I'm not counting on the ogre strength gauntlets. I don't really see the need to go past Fighter 3 (and that's pushing it a little for me). The two reasons that appeal to me for taking fighter are the CON proficiency save and heavy armor. Now if I take Fighter at first level do I also need War Caster? The proficiency AND advantage seem a little repetitive but if I'm wielding a two-handed weapon is there any way to cast spells with somatic components?

you'd have a decent bonus, advantage would be certainly good to have on top of that, but you would want war caster more for spells on OA's, especially with PAM hitting on the way in. with +2 in con and +2 from proficiency, even in early levels you'd have a pretty decent save chance. war caster makes that even better though, making it only about a 6% failure chance on saves that aren't past dc 10 as opposed to 25% without. at high levels you would have a total bonus of +8 even with a low con, so unless you take over 20-some damage you'd have a 10% fail chance without and a 1% fail chance with. war caster would still be good, not necessary though. really depends, you'd probably start with 16's in str and cha, so you'd want 4 asi in those, if you only go 1 in fighter you'll have one more ASI to spare, probably either war caster or just more con somewhere in there. you can probably live with a 16 cha for a while so once you get to 20 str if you want war caster get it at at level 12 in warlock, worry about topping off charisma later.

[Malifice]

Oh ok so one of each. Alright I check out the other feats. Damage priority is important but at the same time you can't do damage if your dead. I also like the idea of prioritizing DEX, it's a very good stat in 5e.

The reason you take fighter at 1st level is it allows you to dump Dex to 8 (and wear heavy armor for AC) and use a great weapon.

Youll have both a great AC and a great DPR.

Go variant human. Put the +1 into Strength and Charisma (both 16) and make sure you have a decent Con. Dump Dex and Int to 8 and a place a Wisdom of at least 10.

For feats, I suggest either great weapon master (for DPR) or heavy armor master (for tanking). If you take the latter, only put enough points in Str to take it to 14 (youll add +1 for the feat, and +1 for racial to take it to 16 - this nets you extra points for a better con or wisdom at 1st)

Take fighter at 1st. Select protection style (+1 AC). Grab some chainmail and a greatsword. Athletics and perception are your class skills. Take whatever background fits your concept (you make a great backup face so one with social skills is not a bad choice)

After fighter at 1st take 5 levels of (fiend) warlock (blade). For cantrips take greenflame blade, eldritch blast and booming blade. For spells take hex, hellish rebuke and armor of agathys. At 2nd level select agnonizing blast as your invocation. At 3rd level mirror image is your friend. At 4th level take whatever feat you didnt take at 1st (probably great weapon master). At 5th level fireball and counterspell are great purchases. Take thirsting blade as your invocation at 5th level (for 2 x attacks).

Then slide back into Fighter for 2 more levels to obtain the battlemaster archetype (to pick up action surge, superiority dice and manouvers - precise strike, pushing attack, riposte).

Then its warlock all the way to 20th (Warlock 17/ Fighter 3).

Tactics:

At 1st you play like any tanky fighter. 2d6+3 damage per hit at +5, AC 17, 12 hp, DR 3/-, bonus action self heal.

At 2nd you add Hex to your DPR. Cast as a bonus action (and move it as a bonus action) on your enemies. Then walk in and cast greenflame blade or booming blade every round for 3d6+3 damage at +5 (plus spash damage or thunder if they move). Your tanking goes bannanas with your DR3/- stacking with the 4 temp HP you get per round from your pact. You have a great ranged option via eldritch blast and utility of spells and cantrips. Dont be afraid to use hellish rebuke when needed.

At 3rd level your ranged option gets better (invocation) and you get 2 spells per rest.

At 4th mirror image comes online for even better tanking.

At 5th level you get GWM feat 9making your DPR much better) AND your cantrips damage increases by +1d8 (giving you 3d6+1d8+13 damage per attack).

At 6th level you can attack twice with thirsting blade, and cast fireball.

At 7th you have action surge to nova things to death.

At 8th level you gain superiority dice for better novas. Precise stike ensures you never miss again (Great with the GWM feat), same deal with tripping strike. Riposte adds to your DPR armory.

From 9th - 20th you get a ton of goodies, and your capstone is a 9th level spell.

The only thing I would say is talk to your DM about his understanding/ ruling of the games rest mechanic. Ensure the campaigns default is that you will (on average) be getting 1 short rest every 2-3 encounters. If he doesnt understand the short rest/ long rest/ encounter sweet spot of 5E (or does understand it but never gives short rests out) stay away from the warlock. If he doesnt generally grant the opportunity for 1 short rest every 2-3 encounters, go a different class.

[Jayzan]

The reason you take fighter at 1st level is it allows you to dump Dex to 8 (and wear heavy armor for AC) and use a great weapon.

Youll have both a great AC and a great DPR.

Go variant human. Put the +1 into Strength and Charisma (both 16) and make sure you have a decent Con. Dump Dex and Int to 8 and a place a Wisdom of at least 10.

For feats, I suggest either great weapon master (for DPR) or heavy armor master (for tanking). If you take the latter, only put enough points in Str to take it to 14 (youll add +1 for the feat, and +1 for racial to take it to 16 - this nets you extra points for a better con or wisdom at 1st)

Take fighter at 1st. Select protection style (+1 AC). Grab some chainmail and a greatsword. Athletics and perception are your class skills. Take whatever background fits your concept (you make a great backup face so one with social skills is not a bad choice)

After fighter at 1st take 5 levels of (fiend) warlock (blade). For cantrips take greenflame blade, eldritch blast and booming blade. For spells take hex, hellish rebuke and armor of agathys. At 2nd level select agnonizing blast as your invocation. At 3rd level mirror image is your friend. At 4th level take whatever feat you didnt take at 1st (probably great weapon master). At 5th level fireball and counterspell are great purchases. Take thirsting blade as your invocation at 5th level (for 2 x attacks).

Then slide back into Fighter for 2 more levels to obtain the battlemaster archetype (to pick up action surge, superiority dice and manouvers - precise strike, pushing attack, riposte).

Then its warlock all the way to 20th (Warlock 17/ Fighter 3).

Tactics:

At 1st you play like any tanky fighter. 2d6+3 damage per hit at +5, AC 17, 12 hp, DR 3/-, bonus action self heal.

At 2nd you add Hex to your DPR. Cast as a bonus action (and move it as a bonus action) on your enemies. Then walk in and cast greenflame blade or booming blade every round for 3d6+3 damage at +5 (plus spash damage or thunder if they move). Your tanking goes bannanas with your DR3/- stacking with the 4 temp HP you get per round from your pact. You have a great ranged option via eldritch blast and utility of spells and cantrips. Dont be afraid to use hellish rebuke when needed.

At 3rd level your ranged option gets better (invocation) and you get 2 spells per rest.

At 4th mirror image comes online for even better tanking.

At 5th level you get GWM feat 9making your DPR much better) AND your cantrips damage increases by +1d8 (giving you 3d6+1d8+13 damage per attack).

At 6th level you can attack twice with thirsting blade, and cast fireball.

At 7th you have action surge to nova things to death.

At 8th level you gain superiority dice for better novas. Precise stike ensures you never miss again (Great with the GWM feat), same deal with tripping strike. Riposte adds to your DPR armory.

From 9th - 20th you get a ton of goodies, and your capstone is a 9th level spell.

The only thing I would say is talk to your DM about his understanding/ ruling of the games rest mechanic. Ensure the campaigns default is that you will (on average) be getting 1 short rest every 2-3 encounters. If he doesnt understand the short rest/ long rest/ encounter sweet spot of 5E (or does understand it but never gives short rests out) stay away from the warlock. If he doesnt generally grant the opportunity for 1 short rest every 2-3 encounters, go a different class.

Thanks for the setup! I have talked to him and we will be getting a short rest between every 2-3 encounters. I just have one concern about this build. Is there any reason why I shouldn't take PAM and use something like a glaive instead of a greatsword / axe? I just don't like the idea that GWM gives me a bonus action when I kill an enemy but then I have to decide between using Hex or the extra attack. PAM seems more viable in the respect that I can get a second "mini attack" every turn that stacks with things like life drinker.

[Malifice]

Thanks for the setup! I have talked to him and we will be getting a short rest between every 2-3 encounters. I just have one concern about this build. Is there any reason why I shouldn't take PAM and use something like a glaive instead of a greatsword / axe? I just don't like the idea that GWM gives me a bonus action when I kill an enemy but then I have to decide between using Hex or the extra attack. PAM seems more viable in the respect that I can get a second "mini attack" every turn that stacks with things like life drinker.

The PAM 'extra attack' also uses your bonus action (and only does 1d4 damage). I also find the reaction AOO granted by PAM when someone enters your reach to also be superflous for someone with access to hellish rebuke (and planning on taking the BM riposte manouver later on). Finally losing the polearm means there is one less feat you need to take (and the build misses out on its 19th level feat, only getting 4 + 1 for human ASI/feats over the 20 levels).

Honestly, I would take HAM at 1st (pairing DR 3/- with the temp HP from Fiend lock + bonus action self healing from second wind + Warlocks ability to gain resistance to slashing/ piercing or bludgeoning [for tanking] + riposte/ hellish rebuke/ armor of agathys [for porcipine tactics]). It makes for an awesome tank from 1st level (and frees up some attribute points to start with a con of 14).

Also; your melee DPR is fantastic, and you have solid ranged and utility options from 2nd.

I would then take GWM at 5th level (warlock 4). From here on out, your DPR is up there with any other fighter. I would then take War caster at 11th (Lock 8/ fighter 3) so you can spam booming blade AOO's (and get advantage on con saves as concentration checks). At 15th and 19th I would increase charisma to 20 (works with your endgame invocation, spell saves, and agonizing blast).

Be on the look out for a magic greatsword and a belt of giant strength (these can take your str up to 29).

[Jayzan]

The PAM 'extra attack' also uses your bonus action (and only does 1d4 damage). I also find the reaction AOO granted by PAM when someone enters your reach to also be superflous for someone with access to hellish rebuke (and planning on taking the BM riposte manouver later on). Finally losing the polearm means there is one less feat you need to take (and the build misses out on its 19th level feat, only getting 4 + 1 for human ASI/feats over the 20 levels).

Honestly, I would take HAM at 1st (pairing DR 3/- with the temp HP from Fiend lock + bonus action self healing from second wind + Warlocks ability to gain resistance to slashing/ piercing or bludgeoning [for tanking] + riposte/ hellish rebuke/ armor of agathys [for porcipine tactics]). It makes for an awesome tank from 1st level (and frees up some attribute points to start with a con of 14).

Also; your melee DPR is fantastic, and you have solid ranged and utility options from 2nd.

I would then take GWM at 5th level (warlock 4). From here on out, your DPR is up there with any other fighter. I would then take War caster at 11th (Lock 8/ fighter 3) so you can spam booming blade AOO's (and get advantage on con saves as concentration checks). At 15th and 19th I would increase charisma to 20 (works with your endgame invocation, spell saves, and agonizing blast).

Be on the look out for a magic greatsword and a belt of giant strength (these can take your str up to 29).

Taking HAM seems to make a lot more sense now! Also greatswords / axes look really cool so I can add a little bit of flavor for my character. Thanks for all the help I think I've finally come to a decision! I'll be on the lookout for a belt of giant strength and a magic greatsword!

[Foxhound438]

At 5th level you get GWM feat 9making your DPR much better) AND your cantrips damage increases by +1d8 (giving you 3d6+1d8+13 damage per attack).

At 6th level you can attack twice with thirsting blade, and cast fireball.



your scag cantrips don't work with extra attack, just fyi. scag cantrips are one per turn (because it's the cast a spell action, not the attack action), so you would get with your build 3d6+3d8+10 (average 34) for one attack on a turn at level 17 with hex, or 6d6+20 (average 41) with two attacks instead of the cantrip. compared to PAM build doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+30 (average 54) with hex or 2d10+1d4+30 (average 43.5) even without hex. if you want to factor in GWM for yours, remember that glaives are heavy too, and can use it on 3 attacks every turn as opposed to 2.

[Foxhound438]

The PAM 'extra attack' also uses your bonus action (and only does 1d4 damage).

don't forget all of your extra damage from lifedrinker and hex where you have one thick target.

[Jayzan]

your scag cantrips don't work with extra attack, just fyi. scag cantrips are one per turn (because it's the cast a spell action, not the attack action), so you would get with your build 3d6+3d8+10 (average 34) for one attack on a turn at level 17 with hex, or 6d6+20 (average 41) with two attacks instead of the cantrip. compared to PAM build doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+30 (average 54) with hex or 2d10+1d4+30 (average 43.5) even without hex. if you want to factor in GWM for yours, remember that glaives are heavy too, and can use it on 3 attacks every turn as opposed to 2.

PAM vs GWM seems very controversial! So just to clarify spell casting can't be used with multiple attacks?

[bid]

PAM vs GWM seems very controversial! So just to clarify spell casting can't be used with multiple attacks?

Extra attack is a step of the attack action. Cast spell is a different action.

PAM/GWM are styles that have negligible differences. Just pick what RP's the best to you. Do you see yourself wielding a greatsword or a halberd?

Frankly, I don't like HAM. It's a passive feat that brings no fun to the table.

[Malifice]

Frankly, I don't like HAM. It's a passive feat that brings no fun to the table.

Combining HAM's DR 3/- with the fiend locks ability to gain (level+CHA) Temp HP on a kill (and the ability to heal as a bonus action 1/ short rest, and later on resistance to non magical B/P or S damage, mirror image etc) makes for a very tanky character.

You can literally wade through mooks, cutting them down with impunity.

Having porcipine effects (riposte, armor of agathys, hellish rebuke) also helps.


PAM vs GWM seems very controversial! So just to clarify spell casting can't be used with multiple attacks?

You cant use the bonus action attack from PAM when you attack with the weapon using one of the new cantrips (greenflame blade or booming blade). You must use the attack action to get the bonus d4 damage attack. When you attack with the cantrips, you use the 'cast a spell' action.

You can use the bonus attack granted on a crit or kill from the GWM feat with those cantrips though. It triggers on a kill or a critical - the action used to land the kill or critical is not relevant.

You cant use the extra attack class feature with either.

Slight advantage to the great weapon over the polearm.


your scag cantrips don't work with extra attack, just fyi. scag cantrips are one per turn (because it's the cast a spell action, not the attack action), so you would get with your build 3d6+3d8+10 (average 34) for one attack on a turn at level 17 with hex, or 6d6+20 (average 41) with two attacks instead of the cantrip.

There are still times you want to use the cantrip (such as with AoO'S and warcaster) over taking the extra attack action. Also making 2 attacks [each for damage X] is more reliable than making one attack [for damage XX].


compared to PAM build doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+30 (average 54) with hex or 2d10+1d4+30 (average 43.5) even without hex.

Thats assuming he has a bonus action spare to make the d4 damage PAM extra attack. Hex and the bonus action attack from GWM also use that bonus action so PWM can more often than not be redundant (and not really worth the feat slot used to select it). Same deal with the reaction attack from PAM (this build has both hellish rebuke and riposte manouver plus normal AoO's, so it is also a little redundant).

Also (as noted above) you only gain the d4 damage polearm master bonus action attack when he takes the attack action (and has a bonus action to spare). It doesnt combine with new the cantrips. GWM's bonus action attack does.

Consider he gets 4 feats/ASI over 20 levels. He gets five feats/ ASI if a Vuman. At levels 1 (human) 5th, 11th, 15th and 19th. Taking HAM and GWM (he wants to both tank AND hit hard as part of his build) ties him over till 11th level when his third feat comes online. At that point the warcaster feat is a much better choice than Polearm master (due to redundancies), to both keep his spells like Hex running (saving him slots and action economy for recasing) and to give him a nasty AoO attack (even just spamming booming blade as an AoO). He needs the 15th and 19th level ASI's to get his Charisma to 20.

Taking both PAM and GWM is a redundancy for mine. I'd stick with GWM over PAM, but its a personal preference. They both have strengths and weaknesses. His melee DPR is going to be pretty amazing anyway, and the ASI/ feat could really help shore up something elsewhere.

[Corran]

................
Then slide back into Fighter for 2 more levels to obtain the battlemaster archetype (to pick up action surge, superiority dice and manouvers - precise strike, pushing attack, riposte).
................

I am pretty sure you meant tripping there, as you specify later.

Very well thought build, would you mind giving a few more details on the spell selection?

[Dalebert]

If you want to avoid a dip, you could consider a mountain dwarf for the medium armor proficiency and stats that will help with the build you want. Problem is you'd probably still like to have a 14 dex with medium armor and that gets pretty MAD. The 1 level of fighter is probably worthwhile.

[Sigreid]

I don't think I've seen anyone ask yet, what appeals to you? Do you want to mainly throw down in melee and have magic tricks, or do you want magic with a side of old fashion beat down?

If you want to primarily beat down I'll say if you go EK7 you can swing your weapon and EB in the same round. If you take EK8, you actually get 1 additional ASI over straight warlock. If you take crossbow expert feat, you can use EB in melee without disadvantage.

[Jayzan]

I don't think I've seen anyone ask yet, what appeals to you? Do you want to mainly throw down in melee and have magic tricks, or do you want magic with a side of old fashion beat down?

If you want to primarily beat down I'll say if you go EK7 you can swing your weapon and EB in the same round. If you take EK8, you actually get 1 additional ASI over straight warlock. If you take crossbow expert feat, you can use EB in melee without disadvantage.

I mainly preferred the former. Something where I could get into the center of combat and stay there, but obviously with some magic tricks up my sleeve. Taking 3 levels of Fighter seems sufficient enough along with GWM and HAM. After that I can just pump into warlock and all of the magic goodies there. What do you mean when you say EK? I can figure out most of the shorthand but this one confuses me.

[Foxhound438]

I mainly preferred the former. Something where I could get into the center of combat and stay there, but obviously with some magic tricks up my sleeve. Taking 3 levels of Fighter seems sufficient enough along with GWM and HAM. After that I can just pump into warlock and all of the magic goodies there. What do you mean when you say EK? I can figure out most of the shorthand but this one confuses me.

EK=eldrich knight. welcome back to the mad train. you would need str, con, int and cha.

[Jayzan]

EK=eldrich knight. welcome back to the mad train. you would need str, con, int and cha.

Thanks! I don't think Ill go 7-8 levels into Fighter it seems a little much for me. I'm sitting on 16 Str, 8 Dex, 15 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha right now.

[Sigreid]

EK=eldrich knight. welcome back to the mad train. you would need str, con, int and cha.

So, I'm doing what I discussed right now on a character. He's not that mad as I'm choosing defensive spells that don't rely on saves for my EK spells. Mostly using shield, for example. Nothing wrong with going almost all warlock, but I do suggest at least reading the level 7 ability. I'd be all warlock without that baby.

[Malifice]

I am pretty sure you meant tripping there, as you specify later.

Very well thought build, would you mind giving a few more details on the spell selection?


At 2nd level (when you take your first warlock level) hex forms the core of your build. It lasts an hour, which should last you your 2-3 encounters between short rests (although concentration is an issue - again why the fighter dip at 1st is key for con save proficiency). I like hellish rebuke for your second choice. For cantrips eldritch blast (for a ranged option - again negating the need for dex) and greenflame blade (additional melee oomph).

At 3rd (warlock 2) select agonizing blast and a utility invocation (I like mask of many faces). Select either armor of agathys or a utility spell. Importantly you now have 2 slots per short rest. HAM works well with armor of agathys, but I do like picking up a utility spell at this level.

At 4th pact boon comes on line. Select mirror image for your spell.

At 5th take GWM as your feat. Select darkness as your spell and devils sight as your invocation (swap out mask of many faces for it). Select Boomng blade or a utility cantrip. Martials get 2 attacks per round at this level, but you wont notice the difference as the slack gets picked up with the extra damage from GWM, melee cantrips (which scale at this level) and hex.

At 6th take fireball as your spell, and thirsting blade as your invocation. This is a key level for you as your Hex spells now last 8 hours (meaning as long as you can maintain concentration they last for the entire AD through short rests), fireball is online and you can now make 2 attacks per round.

At 7th and 8th you take your two fighter levels and pick up action surge and superiority dice. Now you can fireball + hex + full attack + GWM + superiority dice nova.

From 9th level onwards, counterspell, hold person, fly, dispell magic, banshment, dimension door, scrying, hold monster, and utility spells are all good.

For arcanas I like 6th true seeing, 7th forcecage, 8th power word stun, 9th true polymorph.

Youre in melee constantly and keeping Hex up is vital (you dont want to waste your precious second slot on recasting it). HAM + Con of 14 + proficiency in Con saves from fighter helps for the lower levels ensuring the DC is rarely above 10 and you get at least +5 to the check to maintain it. Even if you do run out of spells, youre still a more than capable melee fighter (Str 16, GWM, 2 attacks per round, greenflame blade and booming blade, action surge, superioirty dice). Warcaster is a must once you hit warlock 8.

At warlock 11 you get 3 spells per short rest, and its much smoother sailing. A ring of spell storing can help, as can a rod of the pact keeper.

The build is good in melee (it tanks hard with fiend lock temp HP, HAM, high con, heavy armor, second wind, mirror image, resistance to one type of damage, dark ones own luck, and it hits as hard as any fighter does till 11th level when they grab extra attack[2]). It has good ranged options (eldritch blast + agonizing blast) and mook clearance via fireball.

Its probably worth it to grab more utlity spells instead of all out combat spells like noted above. But thats a matter of personal preference.

[Corran]

snip
Thanks for the detailed answer!

[Malifice]

Thanks for the detailed answer!

Even without spell slots, youre still a melee powerhouse up there with the Fighter and Barbarian over the first 10 levels.

I reckon you could do a pretty solid barbarian/ 'lock also. Temp HP on a kill + rage 1/2 damage = a pretty nasty combo.

[Jayzan]

Even without spell slots, youre still a melee powerhouse up there with the Fighter and Barbarian over the first 10 levels.

I reckon you could do a pretty solid barbarian/ 'lock also. Temp HP on a kill + rage 1/2 damage = a pretty nasty combo.

Past the first 10-11 levels how bad is the damage drop off comparatively to a Fighter or Barbarian? I'm assuming I'll still be very competitive but do I need to use ranged attacks more?

[Foxhound438]

Past the first 10-11 levels how bad is the damage drop off comparatively to a Fighter or Barbarian? I'm assuming I'll still be very competitive but do I need to use ranged attacks more?

compared to fighter you lose a third attack, but the real impact depends, you might be looking at 1d8+str with a sword and board, but you could also be losing one attack that deals 5d6+1d4+str(gs+hex+flametongue+crusader's mantle), so it's build dependent. high end it's a lot, but on average you could expect 3d6+str(just hex in there, from magic initiate probably). compare 3 attacks at 3d6+str to your 2 attacks at 3d6+str+cha at level 12 on warlock side, you aren't losing too much. 46.5 for the fighter, expectably 39 for you. not terrible, gets worse compared to L20 fighter's 4 attacks.

E blast a L11 with the invocation and hex would average 42 for a maxed out cha warlock, so you're not terribly far behind that.

otherwise 5th level spells will probably put you a bit ahead in utility if nothing else

[Malifice]

Past the first 10-11 levels how bad is the damage drop off comparatively to a Fighter or Barbarian? I'm assuming I'll still be very competitive but do I need to use ranged attacks more?

You remain comparable. It plays no different to a fighter from 1-10 (barring the fact you also have spells). Your spike damage lags behind a fraction behind from 11-17th compared to a fighter or barbarian (a GWM fighter can make 6 attacks with action surge plus superiority dice + GWM) but once hurl through hell comes online, youre back to being golden again. Its harldy noticable, and considering you have spells in your back pocket to use when needed, its no biggie.

Cast hex as a bonus action. Action surge. Turn GWM 'on'. Attack 4 times dealing 3d6+(str+cha+10+weapon+d8) on a hit. If you miss, spam a precise strike to make it a hit. If you hit, knock them prone to gain advantage on the remaining attacks. On your final attack, hurl them through hell for another +10d10.

You're netting (warlock level + cha) temp HP and a free greatsword attack everytime you kill anything (and have DR 3/- from HAM and resistance to one of S, B or P from 'lock), which lets you tank like a boss. You really shine in fights featuring a lot of mooks, and also have an (action surge/ GWM/ superiority dice/ thirsting blade) melee nova in your pocket for hard targets. Also: spells.

Your ranged attacks are not your primary method of killing stuff, but theyre damn effective in a pinch (eldritch blast + hex + agonizing blast + action surge if needed). They key off Cha and dont require dex or a bow or arrows and are always available without dropping the greatsword. If you need them, theyre there and they work - but melee is where you want to be if possible.

Its a top line tank (just behind barbarian and moon druid) and has fantastic ranged and melee DPR (and 9th level spells). You'll never be in a position where you cant put down the pain (against both mooks and hard targets, in both melee and ranged and if all esle fails, spells).

Key levels are 2nd (when you take your first lock level), 3rd (invocations, 2 spells per rest), 4th (mirror image), 5th (when your cantrips scale, GWM comes online) 6th (when thirsting blade and fireball come online) 7th (action surge) 8th (superiority dice), 9th (fly + dark ones own luck) 10th (counterspell) 11th (hold monster, warcaster) 12th (resistance to non magic P, S or B damage), 14th (3 x spells per short rest, your first high level slot), 15th (another feat or +2 Cha)..

Actually, every level nets you something good!

I like strength warriors in 5E. Theyre seriously underrated for mine. Str saves are very common in melee, more str boost items exist and the ones that do exist push up to Str 29 (gauntlets and girdles of giant strength) - although this is DM and campaign dependent. Bladelock is one class that can safely dump Dex - you use Cha for spells and ranged attacks (and extra melee damage) and can mititgate its loss with heavy armor (from fighter). Failed dex saves are rarely fatal (usually just half damage). The only pain from dumping it is initative.

A magic weapon (even something like a flaming greatsword) and a belt of giant strength will make you totally boss. Magic armor, a ring of spell storing (letting you pump any unused slots into it before short resting), a rod of the pact keeper etc are all go-to items.

If you werent going to take HAM, then I would take GWM at 1st and then Warcaster asap (at warlock 4). Being in melee exposes you to getting hit, and for the first 13 levels you only have 2 slots per short rest. Having hex go down is a big deal (and super annoying) as if you want to put it back up again, youre out of spells till you can short rest.

If this doesnt appeal, Paladin/ Warlock is my second favorite build. I go with Paladin 6/ Fighter 3/ Lock 11. You sacrifice your high level spells but gain +cha to saves, an expanded spell list featuring heal and a mount, the ability to smite + action surge + hex + superiority dice + thirsting blade + lifedrinker nova. You can use your paladin slots for hex, saving your warlock slots for other stuff (and smiting). Its a matter of taste.

One thing is for certain, bladelock is tricky to pull off (it requires a touch of MCing for mine) but very effective when done right.

[Jayzan]

E blast a L11 with the invocation and hex would average 42 for a maxed out cha warlock, so you're not terribly far behind that.


Great! I was a little worried that I would fall quite far behind but it doesn't seem that way!

[Jayzan]

One thing is for certain, bladelock is tricky to pull off (it requires a touch of MCing for mine) but very effective when done right.

That's the entire reason why I made the thread! The build sounded extremely neat and I wanted to try it but I didn't want to screw it up, reach a high level and just be a horrible character.

[dib8rman]

Okay, reluctant Warlock here.

I'll start it off by quoting one of my favorite guides to Warlock: "As a Bladelock you will not be the best at anything, maybe not even second best in your party but you wont be the worst."

I look at bladelocks like Gisher's and that's it. As such I spoke with my DM and did a 2000 round dpr chart to show that allowing my pact blade to be a 2 handed finesse 2d4 weapon that worked with pole arm mastery only prevented me from going MAD.

In actual play my character will do around 18~20 damage while our fighter can put 25's and 30's. This is around level 7. Keep in mind if you are using polearm mastery before level 10 you will rarely be using Hex, to put it simply you only have 2 spell slots, and if you are smart you save one for your gtfo card and are using the other to keep up armor of agathys. So to me Hex is a non sequitur, if I had a mouse at the beginning of the day that I could kill then sure. (Cast Hex on the mouse and then kill it, then short rest for the slot back and throw hex around for the next 8 hours for free if you don't use another concentration spell in the mean time.)

If you want to stick with RAW though or your DM is unwilling to work with you then consider Drow with Darkness and Devilsight, it's frustrating to your team sometimes but if you are going fiend it's the best you can get on a build that leaves you with really crappy con or dex. You could also later on make a magic hand crossbow turn it into your pact weapon, just note you still consume bolts as normal but you could pick up xbow expertise which would allow you to basically have the highest possible dpr as a drow by going with rapier and then 2x xbow or 3x xbow at a range. If you get thirsting blade to keep up with eldritch blasts additional beams even after level 17.

Polearm mastery is still the strongest bet though since you don't get all of the benefits of your pact weapon that way... duel wielding is really meh on Bladelock...

The best races for a Bladelock are: Drow, Teifling, Human Variant (OP for almost every class) and Half Elves.
The best pact for DPR in order are: Fiend, Fey and Great Old one.

Drow as I stated because of darkness devil sight and their stat allocations and that hand xbow and rapier proficiency.

Teifling because the class was essentially made for this race it seems.

Human Variant because of the obvious universalness of this race.

Half Elf because they are nearly as universal as Human Variants and nearly as good at anything.

---
Fiend for the more obvious reasons seems like the best choice for Blade pact, Fiend clearly has the most overtly damaging abilities, I mean I think since hurl through hell works through attack rolls that you can thus critical with; which is... so a 5% chance to 20d10 which can be declared after the attack roll is insane if possible. Fiend also gives you a lot of survivability which also helps incredibly with Blade pact, of course you have to kill the target but it also frees up a spell slot that would have gone to armor of agathys. I don't really like resilience because it seems kind of niche, but in some campaigns it could help a lot.

I'd argue that Fey is actually up there as well, Fey pact have probably the 5th most OP defensive/offensive spell or ability in the game which is Greater Invisibility. Yes it's a concentration but you give disadvantage to just about every attack coming your way and you have advantage towards attacks you are putting out which bumps your chance for natural 20's and lowers your odds at natural 1's. You also have blink and a free gtfo ability without having to burn the extra spell slot. This is useful since once you get that you can be more comfortable using hex knowing you still have some kind of mechanism to escape the area collapsing around you.

You also get Blink as Fey Pact which is probably one of the best defensive spells in the game except against ghosts obviously, you can't be charmed so your prolific dpr (:lol:) can't be turned against your party, on top of that any time someone tries you instead can charm them giving you a minion with its own attack and movement turns after you give it a command and that's for just a reaction.

Great Old One... it works very well for Tomelock but it would take a bit more work than I'm willing to put in order to get it to work with a Bladelock.

At the end of the day remember that as a Bladelock it isn't really about DPR it's about ultility, you are a misunderstood support character essentially. You can Gish but you won't be keeping up with Rogue burst, you can't keep up with Fighter burst or sustain and you definetly cannot keep up with Sorc or Wizards or Monks. But you can at most times keep ahead of Clerics and be near Monks....

Of course you could always just optimize for Eldritch Blast and have crazy single target DPR that you can lay in from about a 1/4th a mile away.

Generally a blade lock has a few more hoops to jump through to be competitive, with other classes. They are skirmishers at the best of times. The most fun you can have is when your DM forgets you even exist as a damage source and when that beefy mob comes along you drop hex+bane on it and do 80+ dpr the next round with polearm mastery or xbow expertise. But such events as I said are very rare unless your DM loves 1v6 style fights.