SnugUndies
2015-12-13, 03:31 AM
The Sharktooth Staff, from Savage Species, always seemed like a very cool exotic weapon to me. Presumably it isn't meant to be studded with literal shark's teeth, but the imagery is evocative. It's a greatsword with a x3 critical, but on any successful hit you can immediately start a grapple as a free action. Thereafter, you can "deal normal damage for the weapon on subsequent rounds without making further attack rolls against the grappled victim." Anyways, this remained a simple appreciation until I came across Sharkskin Armor in Stormwrack - armor with a +3 AC bonus and embedded with shark teeth that count as armor spikes. Seeing these two shark-themed pieces of equipment that had grappling functionality, I knew then and there that I wanted to make a shark-themed character.
Now, in choosing class levels, I was interested in a warblade since 1. We'll want some options that aren't grappling-oriented, and maneuvers will help with that, and 2. The Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance allows access to the much-vaunted Constrict ability. Also, my DM is likely to let me delay when I get my second stance by a level (or qualify for level 3 stances a level early) so I can have this by level 5.
Here's where things start to break down: How much exactly am I able to do in a grapple? Some of these abilities seem to conflict... maybe.
The sharktooth staff deals damage without needing an attack roll. This seems to suggest it doesn't take an action, either. On one hand it seems like you can only deal the damage once per round regardless of how high your base attack bonus is, but on the other hand you're using a two-handed weapon in a grapple, and without using any actions. So it seems like you get the damage "free" each round as long as a grapple is maintained.
Armor spikes deal "extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack." Does the word 'extra' suggest that the damage is dealt in addition to the regular, nonlethal damage dealt through a grapple? Does the sharktooth staff damage count as a grapple attack, or an attack in a grapple, even though you didn't make a roll? Does 'dealing damage' with the weapon automatically qualify as a roll? It's hard to be certain. That said, if you're getting the sharktooth staff damage for free each round regardless of how you use your actions in a grapple, presumably you could still make attack rolls with the spikes.
Crushing Weight of the Mountain is the big one, or at least it has the potential to be. The constrict ability, both in the description for the stance and in the monster manual, states you get the damage after "making a successful grapple check." A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that every time an opposing grapple check is called for, regardless of why or on who's turn, if the winner has constrict, the loser takes constrict damage. Going by the wording, though, I would be willing to interpret it as saying that constricting is a special action that requires a grapple check to perform (essentially a 'grapple attack' with upgraded damage)... though the former interpretation is certainly more impressive. Since armor spikes require an attack roll rather than a grapple check, though, are you unable to constrict as well as attack with the spikes?
Going by my understanding of how these abilities work and what they call for, I'm going to lay out a "sample" turn from a character possessing all three of them in the hopes of revealing my understanding. They weren't kidding when they said this grappling stuff is complicated.
Assume a +6 BAB and 18 Strength.
1. I attack an enemy with the sharktooth staff and hit. It deals 2d6+6 damage.
2. Since I hit, the staff lets me make a grapple attempt. We make opposed grapple checks; assume I won. Since I made a 'successful grapple check,' Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
3. I am now in a grapple. I have made one attack and have one remaining in a full attack action, so I make a 'grapple attack.' We make opposed grapple checks, and I win, dealing 1d6+2 piercing damage with the armor spikes (or possibly 1d3+2 subdual damage as well as 1d6+2 piercing damage?) Since I won a grapple check, Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
4. My turn's over. My foe attempts to damage me with a grapple attack of his own. However, I beat his grapple check and thus don't take damage. Since I won a grapple check, Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
5. My turn again. The sharktooth staff automatically deals 2d6+6 damage because we're still grappling.
6. I have two attack actions to burn through, so for the first I make an attack with the armor spikes (not a grapple attack.) I make an attack roll with a -4 penalty, but manage to hit and deal 1d6+2 piercing damage. Since it was not an opposed grapple check, however, Crushing Weight of the Mountain does not trigger.
7. Realizing I did less damage by using a conventional attack, and that another attack would be made with only +1 BAB, I attempt another grapple attack. However, I don't win the opposed check. No damage, and certainly no constrict damage.
8. My foe attempts an escape artist check, but I beat him with my grapple check. Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
And so on...
Does this all sound right as dictated by the rules? My two main points of contention are:
-How exactly do armor spikes interact with making a grapple attack?, and
-Does constrict trigger after every grapple check I win, or does it take an attack action to perform on my turn?
I have read a couple threads on armor spikes and constrict elsewise, but they never seem to reach comfortable consensuses. I've certainly never seen one trying to combine all of these options. (For now, I'm not even going to bring up the idea to eventually get the vampiric fangs graft from LM to deal constitution damage as well....)
Thanks in advance for weighing in on this tricky, sharky issue.
Now, in choosing class levels, I was interested in a warblade since 1. We'll want some options that aren't grappling-oriented, and maneuvers will help with that, and 2. The Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance allows access to the much-vaunted Constrict ability. Also, my DM is likely to let me delay when I get my second stance by a level (or qualify for level 3 stances a level early) so I can have this by level 5.
Here's where things start to break down: How much exactly am I able to do in a grapple? Some of these abilities seem to conflict... maybe.
The sharktooth staff deals damage without needing an attack roll. This seems to suggest it doesn't take an action, either. On one hand it seems like you can only deal the damage once per round regardless of how high your base attack bonus is, but on the other hand you're using a two-handed weapon in a grapple, and without using any actions. So it seems like you get the damage "free" each round as long as a grapple is maintained.
Armor spikes deal "extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack." Does the word 'extra' suggest that the damage is dealt in addition to the regular, nonlethal damage dealt through a grapple? Does the sharktooth staff damage count as a grapple attack, or an attack in a grapple, even though you didn't make a roll? Does 'dealing damage' with the weapon automatically qualify as a roll? It's hard to be certain. That said, if you're getting the sharktooth staff damage for free each round regardless of how you use your actions in a grapple, presumably you could still make attack rolls with the spikes.
Crushing Weight of the Mountain is the big one, or at least it has the potential to be. The constrict ability, both in the description for the stance and in the monster manual, states you get the damage after "making a successful grapple check." A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that every time an opposing grapple check is called for, regardless of why or on who's turn, if the winner has constrict, the loser takes constrict damage. Going by the wording, though, I would be willing to interpret it as saying that constricting is a special action that requires a grapple check to perform (essentially a 'grapple attack' with upgraded damage)... though the former interpretation is certainly more impressive. Since armor spikes require an attack roll rather than a grapple check, though, are you unable to constrict as well as attack with the spikes?
Going by my understanding of how these abilities work and what they call for, I'm going to lay out a "sample" turn from a character possessing all three of them in the hopes of revealing my understanding. They weren't kidding when they said this grappling stuff is complicated.
Assume a +6 BAB and 18 Strength.
1. I attack an enemy with the sharktooth staff and hit. It deals 2d6+6 damage.
2. Since I hit, the staff lets me make a grapple attempt. We make opposed grapple checks; assume I won. Since I made a 'successful grapple check,' Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
3. I am now in a grapple. I have made one attack and have one remaining in a full attack action, so I make a 'grapple attack.' We make opposed grapple checks, and I win, dealing 1d6+2 piercing damage with the armor spikes (or possibly 1d3+2 subdual damage as well as 1d6+2 piercing damage?) Since I won a grapple check, Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
4. My turn's over. My foe attempts to damage me with a grapple attack of his own. However, I beat his grapple check and thus don't take damage. Since I won a grapple check, Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
5. My turn again. The sharktooth staff automatically deals 2d6+6 damage because we're still grappling.
6. I have two attack actions to burn through, so for the first I make an attack with the armor spikes (not a grapple attack.) I make an attack roll with a -4 penalty, but manage to hit and deal 1d6+2 piercing damage. Since it was not an opposed grapple check, however, Crushing Weight of the Mountain does not trigger.
7. Realizing I did less damage by using a conventional attack, and that another attack would be made with only +1 BAB, I attempt another grapple attack. However, I don't win the opposed check. No damage, and certainly no constrict damage.
8. My foe attempts an escape artist check, but I beat him with my grapple check. Crushing Weight of the Mountain deals 2d6+6 damage.
And so on...
Does this all sound right as dictated by the rules? My two main points of contention are:
-How exactly do armor spikes interact with making a grapple attack?, and
-Does constrict trigger after every grapple check I win, or does it take an attack action to perform on my turn?
I have read a couple threads on armor spikes and constrict elsewise, but they never seem to reach comfortable consensuses. I've certainly never seen one trying to combine all of these options. (For now, I'm not even going to bring up the idea to eventually get the vampiric fangs graft from LM to deal constitution damage as well....)
Thanks in advance for weighing in on this tricky, sharky issue.