+2 to one or +1 to three stats

[hymer]

Ability Score Increases can be used either for a feat, for +2 to one score, or +1 to two scores. Unless people have some uneven stats to even out, it seems to me you always go for the feat or +2 to one score (casting or attack stat - maaaybe con). So +1 to two scores happens at most once in an optimized build (okay, maybe that's over-stating, but you get the point).

So what would happen if you allowed ASIs to give +1 to three different scores? What would be the consequences, good and bad?

[JellyPooga]

You'd probably see a reversal; i.e. +2 to one stat would rarely be used. Given the choice between increasing your overall ability score modifiers by +3 over two ASI's compared to +2 in the same time, most would go for the former.

Some SAD builds would hit up that +2, especially if the players know the game won't go above a certain level, but in the long run the benefits of +1 to three are pretty clear.

[djreynolds]

You know with the ability cap, characters should look to become more well-rounded, and this is actually very cool. For me it depends if you are a here in the moment player or a long term planner. As a fighter, who may fail saves a lot or social skills, being able to throw +3 say in non class abilities, I would do it at 4th and 6th, and be very happy.

[Daishain]

People would just switch to adding +1 to three stats twice and/or spreading initial stats out more with uneven numbers. A little longer wait is often worth a 50% boost to benefit.

[Kurald Galain]

So what would happen if you allowed ASIs to give +1 to three different scores? What would be the consequences, good and bad?

It wouldn't make a difference at all. Other than for maxing out your primary, ASIs are simply a worse deal than feats, both from a power and a flavor perspective.

[Tanarii]

You've got it backwards. +2 happens more often in optimized builds (or AL) because they use point buy. That's not the default rule for generating ability scores. Rolling is. So odd stats should be as often as even stats, making +1 to two (or half-feats) useful. Even default humans have some use, depending on your rolls.

Remeber, even feats (and multiclassing) aren't the default rule. Playground posts and Optimizers often assume certain things that aren't the default rules. Mostly because they either add control (point buy) or options (and therefore more to optimize around). But keeping in mind they're options is important.

[Zman]

It'd be nice for some MAD builds, very nice. I could see using it or basing a build off of it.

You could give +2 to two of your lowest three/four ability scores as well which would be an amazing option for rounding out characters.

[Shaofoo]

That's not the default rule for generating ability scores. Rolling is.

You can either roll or you can take the 15,14,13,12,10,8 array and I think most people do take the array.

[Kurald Galain]

You can either roll or you can take the 15,14,13,12,10,8 array and I think most people do take the array.

Why would they? Rolling will get you a better primary ability score, most of the time.

[Tanarii]

You can either roll or you can take the 15,14,13,12,10,8 array and I think most people do take the array.from what I've seen from most first time posters coming for optimization advice, most people roll miracle scores using some home-brewed rolling method. :p

Seriously though, good point that standard array is as default as rolling.

[Daishain]

You can either roll or you can take the 15,14,13,12,10,8 array and I think most people do take the array.
I've never (personally) known anyone to take the array. They either risk a roll or use point buy to get a spread that fits their character, whether that fit is optimization or RP inspired varies, but the array is generally not very popular for either.

Granted, people using point buy often end up using stats not too dissimilar to the array, just a few points swapped around. But the ability to choose is important to me and those I tend to play with.

[Zman]

The array is 27 pointbuy with no options, that is why I offer my players a 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 array or 27 point buy. No rolling. Ever. The game wasn't designed to start with a score higher than 15 before racial modifiers.

[djreynolds]

For players needing pumps in non class stats, say 15/15/15/8/8/8. It would be tempting even for the 8's just to bring them to zero modifier.

And in a game without feats, priceless

[comk59]

My group uses the array almost exclusively. We tried both PB and rolling, but the players asked if we could go back to the array pretty quickly.

[djreynolds]

You know the AL, is always doing pickup games and they want you to come in for them all ready prepped. And they use the standard array.

Very different game when you roll, both directions. Better and worse. 18 is nice, living with a 6 isn't

[Zman]

You know the AL, is always doing pickup games and they want you to come in for them all ready prepped. And they use the standard array.

Very different game when you roll, both directions. Better and worse. 18 is nice, living with a 6 isn't

I've rarely seen people keep those sixes, haha. Usually Adams cave and give a reroll, and with rolls I've seen too many people cheat. Leave session 1 with a 12 con and come back with a 14, etc. with PB or an array there is none of that as it's super easy to double check.

[Tanarii]

If you're not going to roll once, do it honestly, and keep the roll, what's the point? You might as well just work out a higher array or point buy system with your DM.

Not only that, you do it *after* choosing your race and class. Not before. So you have no idea how your race modifiers will work out in terms of even/odd bonuses. Or if the roll will work well for a MAD class or one that's not as high attribute dependent. None of this 'crap low scores I better make a moon Druid' business.

[djreynolds]

I've rarely seen people keep those sixes, haha. Usually Adams cave and give a reroll, and with rolls I've seen too many people cheat. Leave session 1 with a 12 con and come back with a 14, etc. with PB or an array there is none of that as it's super easy to double check.

Too true. And crazy rolls can also change the dynamics. People don't see the value of other classes when a clerics strength is better than fighters. Just cause he rolled better

[Kurald Galain]

from what I've seen from most first time posters coming for optimization advice, most people roll miracle scores using some home-brewed rolling method. :p

Seriously though, good point that standard array is as default as rolling.

Nope to both.

It's simple math. With the standard array, the chances of getting a 16+ are zero. When rolling, the chances of getting at least one 16+ are 56.8%, and the chances of getting at least one 18 are 10%. Assuming the standard rolling method in the book, 4d6b3.

So if your aim is to max out your primary (which, you know, is basic optimization) then rolling is obviously better than point buy. Yay math!

[Tanarii]

Nope to both.i have no idea what you think you're responding to in my post with this. I said rolling or standard array is the default you use, per the PHB. And cracked a joke about every poster asking for optimization advice seeming to somehow roll a bunch of 17s.

[Kurald Galain]

i have no idea what you think you're responding to in my post with this. I said rolling or standard array is the default you use, per the PHB. And cracked a joke about every poster asking for optimization advice seeming to somehow roll a bunch of 17s.

Because you're implying that people who roll for stats are cheating to get higher scores, when in fact the odds of rolling high are much bigger than you think.

And that's because you can arrange your six rolls in any order. So yes, rolling will usually get you a better primary than the standard array. The two methods are not identical and they're not interchangeable.

[bid]

So yes, rolling will usually get you a better primary than the standard array.
Which is pointless since you usually want 16 14 14 even if you're SAD and will only cap the 16 later on.

And that's not pushing for 16 16 14 that's optimal for most classes.

[Tanarii]

Because you're implying that people who roll for stats are cheating to get higher scores, when in fact the odds of rolling high are much bigger than you think.I'm implying that people that come in with stats that are much much higher than the average that rolling gives are very likely doing something unusual to get them. Not cheating. Just not using the normal 'roll 4d6 six times, once, and keep it' method. Because the regularity with which people show up with far higher than expected scores for that method is comical.


And that's because you can arrange your six rolls in any order. So yes, rolling will usually get you a better primary than the standard array. The two methods are not identical and they're not interchangeable.arranging has nothing to do with getting far higher than either the standard array, or higher than is probable on 4d6 six times, done once.

I never said, not meant to imply, they are identical or interchangeable. Rolling 4d6 six times, one time, generates higher average scores than the standard array. What I said (after being corrected) is that they are both default methods in the PHB. As opposed to point buy, which is a variant rule.

[Kurald Galain]

Which is pointless since you usually want 16 14 14 even if you're SAD and will only cap the 16 later on.
If you're SAD, obviously you want 20 12 12 or something like that, or 18 12 12 if you can't get that. That's what SAD means, after all.

[CNagy]

I only play with point buys and standard array. Let's be honest:

Rolling is (almost entirely) nonsense. It is. Players fudge their dice, and if they don't and get stuck with a crappy score or two, then you are starting off with friction before the game even starts. There was a thread about rolling (or it degenerated into a discussion about rolling) where people talked about the various dice methods they used and it generally came down to "something guaranteeing awesome, and then people can either use their own rolls or the rolls of another party member." The players want to roll something awesome and chances are at least one of them will. The DMs want to keep everyone happy and some semblance of party balance, so one player rolling awesome is usually enough to ensure the entire party gets an awesome stat-block.

But I say screw whatever diseased thinking has convinced some people that they need to start with an 18 or 20 (or several). Ability stat advancement is just another form of getting better at stuff. It's a form that I don't mind handing out in play as a special event reward. But to me, starting with an 18 Str is like having a +1 weapon to start, only better because it also affects your skills and saves and you weren't going to encounter any physical resistant/immune creatures before you had some actual access to magic weapons anyway.

As to the whole +2 to one or +1 to three deal, I don't see it as too powerful but I would definitely take the latter option every time barring some pretty specific circumstances. It slows down the rate at which you end up maxing your stats, but it ends up being a "buy two +2s, get one free" deal and, frankly, we're a bit overzealous on these forums with regards to how quickly one needs to actually maximize their attack stat (or if they need to maximize it at all.)

I could go point buy, Normal Human Anything. 15 15 13 9 9 9 becomes 16 16 14 10 10 10. By level 8, it's 18 18 16 10 10 10. By level 16, I'm rocking 20 20 18 10 10 10--but the thing is, I could have stopped at 18 18 16 10 10 10, those are pretty good stats, and now I'm an 8th level anything (or 6th level Fighter) with at least 3 ASIs left in my future that I could use for feats. Or just use one of them to bump my most important stat to 20. It would make a dual-wielding, strength-based unarmored Barbarian more viable, so that's nice. It'd really make pretty much every single class character a lot sturdier, as well as easing the strain on MAD builds.

[ad_hoc]

I would much rather do something like +3 to a stat/+1 to 3 stats than roll for stats.

At least this way you get character advancement.

I suspect that part of the reason people complain about a lack of number advancement in 5e is starting with maximum stats.

Still, I think +2/+1 to 2 stats is fine. I would suggest not broadly allowing all feats all the time. They are optional for a reason (and feats are overpowered if stats are easily maxed out early).

[Daishain]

As opposed to point buy, which is a variant rule.
It is? that seems odd. I'll have to check later. I'll be honest, I've never really studied that section, haven't needed to.

Regardless, color me unimpressed. It being a variant is effectively irrelevant in this edition. Point buy is among the things people expect to have available in a D&D game, much more so than standardized arrays. This goes along with other variant rules in the PHB such as feats and multiclassing. Non AL DMs who fail to allow those variant rules are few and far between.

There is strong reason to believe that the PHB variant rules (note that the DMG variants are a different matter) are variants for one simple reason. They're training wheels, just like the backgrounds section and the quick start suggestions for each class. New DMs with new players can leave off the complicated decisions and jump into the game with minimal prep time or confusion.

This is an understandable reason, and I applaud WOTC for thinking of ways to introduce new people to this fine game. However, the implication that these variants require special dispensation to be put into use (especially with experienced players) is entirely ridiculous, and frankly somewhat insulting. Training wheels are made to be taken off.

[Zman]

I agree, some of the rolling methods or literally unbelievable luck some people have really can screw with balance and advancement especially when fears are added into the mix. IMO I like the highest possible starting star as a 17 after racial meaning no character has a 20 until Level 6 for Fighters and Level 8 for other classes. No 20Str GWMs running around at Level 4, haha.

[georgie_leech]

If you're SAD, obviously you want 20 12 12 or something like that, or 18 12 12 if you can't get that. That's what SAD means, after all.

Yeah, those are halfway reasonable if lucky. I think he's referring to the 18 18 17 15 5 (gotta balance the luck somehow:smalltongue:) 14 sort of sets.

[Dimolyth]

I would personnally dislike it. Not even for possible mechanics sheningans (Eldritch knight 6 getting +2 to Str, and Con, and Int)
3 stats - that is already 50% of all stats you have. While +2, or two +1s, or a feat - all are customizing the character (20 in Intelligence is fluff of wizard, as 18s at Wiz and Dex is fluff of monks). But gaing 50% of your scores up? - That is not customizing, that is just "I want my mechanics improvement" thing. ASI is not only about growth in power for me. ASI is additional customize of the character - by adding further specialization in rolled stats (look, I learn the things from that library! Now I know how to make my magic more powerful, and had statied even more about history and lore!), or by adding feats (hey, remember how that ogre interrupted my Haste? Now I know how to ignore pain while casting). +1 to three stats will mean just "I became better in half of possible checks/saves/whatever".
I mean, there is already one option "slightly better everywhere" - and it works fine as racial trait. Replicating it by ASI... I just dislike the concept)))

(As for me the two +1s were as ASI were meant to be situational. And I`m fine with it)

[Dimolyth]

I only play with point buys and standard array. Let's be honest:

Rolling is (almost entirely) nonsense. It is. Players fudge their dice, and if they don't and get stuck with a crappy score or two, then you are starting off with friction before the game even starts. There was a thread about rolling (or it degenerated into a discussion about rolling) where people talked about the various dice methods they used and it generally came down to "something guaranteeing awesome, and then people can either use their own rolls or the rolls of another party member." The players want to roll something awesome and chances are at least one of them will. The DMs want to keep everyone happy and some semblance of party balance, so one player rolling awesome is usually enough to ensure the entire party gets an awesome stat-block.

And some people only play with rolling stats.

First, rolling is fun. Constructing your character by numbers from scratch is awesome for GURPS, not D&D.
Second, while rolling, I can get not only 18s, but also 5s, 6s, 7s - which could be great for character concept (lame paladin? crazy wizard? disgusting monk?)
Third, the balance of character means only against another character. Starting with +1 sword disbalance party - because you excel the tasks, that are hard for others. There exist 23/25/27 rolling system. When it is applied - each member of party would be equal in power, though everyone would have their own individual array, that was made of rolling.

If you don`t like the system - that doesn`t makes it bad. Rolling is not definitely a nonsence. Just another style of character creation with its tradition and fun.

[Tanarii]

Point buy is among the things people expect to have available in a D&D game, much more so than standardized arrays.In my experience, point buy is almost never the standard outside of Encounters/AL. Point Buy is a new concept to D&D. And it hardly surprises me that it's the variant rule. It's only been standard in one edition, 4th edition. 5e was a rollback to more traditional D&D, so it's hardly surprising the default would be roll for stats.


This goes along with other variant rules in the PHB such as feats and multiclassing. Non AL DMs who fail to allow those variant rules are few and far between.Again, that's not my experience.


There is strong reason to believe that the PHB variant rules (note that the DMG variants are a different matter) are variants for one simple reason. They're training wheels, just like the backgrounds section and the quick start suggestions for each class. New DMs with new players can leave off the complicated decisions and jump into the game with minimal prep time or confusion.

This is an understandable reason, and I applaud WOTC for thinking of ways to introduce new people to this fine game. However, the implication that these variants require special dispensation to be put into use (especially with experienced players) is entirely ridiculous, and frankly somewhat insulting. Training wheels are made to be taken off.The only insulting thing I see is you calling the non-variant rules 'training wheels'. Playing the game without the variant rules keeps a certain flavor in the game, as well as certain kinds of balance. There are plenty of good reasons to use the variants, and plenty not to. Telling groups to grow up and use the variants is very insulting.

And by backgrounds, are you saying the Personality (ie Personality, Bond, Flaw and Ideals) section of the PHB are 'training wheels' too? You might want to take another look at them. I've found even very experienced players benefit from using those rules. Especially if they are playing in a large group, or in any non-narrative focus campaign style. For many styles of game, four sentences summarizing your character is far better than a background story for developing personality in a way that helps bring a character to life.

[Tanarii]

Let's be honest:

Rolling is (almost entirely) nonsense. It is. Players fudge their dice, and if they don't and get stuck with a crappy score or two, then you are starting off with friction before the game even starts.If players are coming into rolling with that attitude, as I said before, you might as well work with your DM and just get a higher value array or point buy. Rolling only works if the players that intend to accept what they roll, and not worry about if they get low stats instead of high stats.

It's the variability, and making do with whatever you get that's the challenge of rolling. Of overcoming a flaw, and still winning the game.

Don't get me wrong: I really like both standard array and point buy. But if I'm playing a game in which I'm rolling, which is much if my D&D experience, we're agreeing as players before hand to play with the dice as they fall, without regrets. Otherwise there isn't any point to it.

[Malifice]

So what would happen if you allowed ASIs to give +1 to three different scores? What would be the consequences, good and bad?

A human champion could end up with stats of:

20
20
20
18
14
10

[CNagy]

If players are coming into rolling with that attitude, as I said before, you might as well work with your DM and just get a higher value array or point buy. Rolling only works if the players that intend to accept what they roll, and not worry about if they get low stats instead of high stats.

It's the variability, and making do with whatever you get that's the challenge of rolling. Of overcoming a flaw, and still winning the game.

Don't get me wrong: I really like both standard array and point buy. But if I'm playing a game in which I'm rolling, which is much if my D&D experience, we're agreeing as players before hand to play with the dice as they fall, without regrets. Otherwise there isn't any point to it.

Maybe it's just a testament to the diversity of the D&D crowd, but 25 years and hundreds of players and my experiences look nothing like yours. Overcoming an innate character disadvantage is not a core part of any D&D I've run or played; those characters with "flaw" stats are almost always one-shot or shiggles characters--"I'm going to try playing an X with a horrible Y stat." They're looking to me for the challenges, not the 6 Wisdom on their character sheet.

If someone told me "name a type of D&D gamer and we'll give you $10 for each person that fits that description," the very first words out of my mouth would not be "people looking to experience challenges", they'd be "guys who use characters as personal avatars." They roll because rolling is the best way to get good stats. When rolling is monitored, they think we should use a heroic method, because they don't like having any low stats and flaws. I prefer not having dump stats at all, and I really don't feel like policing players who figured they'd just stick that 5 in Intelligence and forget about it.

Now I cut those guys (and anyone who feels like they *need* an 18 or 20 to start) off at the knees by playing strictly point buy and array. Your stats only start so high, you can only dump them so low, and everyone is on an even playing field.

[Daishain]

In my experience, point buy is almost never the standard outside of Encounters/AL. Point Buy is a new concept to D&D. And it hardly surprises me that it's the variant rule. It's only been standard in one edition, 4th edition. 5e was a rollback to more traditional D&D, so it's hardly surprising the default would be roll for stats.

Again, that's not my experience.

The only insulting thing I see is you calling the non-variant rules 'training wheels'. Playing the game without the variant rules keeps a certain flavor in the game, as well as certain kinds of balance. There are plenty of good reasons to use the variants, and plenty not to. Telling groups to grow up and use the variants is very insulting.

And by backgrounds, are you saying the Personality (ie Personality, Bond, Flaw and Ideals) section of the PHB are 'training wheels' too? You might want to take another look at them. I've found even very experienced players benefit from using those rules. Especially if they are playing in a large group, or in any non-narrative focus campaign style. For many styles of game, four sentences summarizing your character is far better than a background story for developing personality in a way that helps bring a character to life.
-Rolling has indeed been the default from the beginning, but point buy has been an alternative to rolling since second edition (though to be fair 2E's version was quite different from the one developed in 3E, the latter of which forms the basis for 5E's version). It became commonly used in third. It most certainly is not something new that 5E made up.

-Congratulations on not experiencing groups that don't use the variant rules. Threads on this board and elsewhere have made it abundantly clear that such is most definitely not the norm.

-I call things for what they are. For the people that prefer playing a streamlined version of the game, that's fine, and I mean no insult. But for the rest of us, my point is very simple, the variant rules in question are default D&D. If you wish to play without them, that is your choice, but don't attempt to saddle others with your preferences by claiming it is the right way to play.

-Concerning the PHB backgrounds. Indeed, few players really know how to write a decent background. It is something quite difficult to learn. I even like the direction they went in setting up critical personality aspects, and I strongly suggest that players of all experience levels take a good long look at them. But even if the PHB backgrounds were a complete picture of a character (they most definitely are not), it is greatly preferable to show creativity rather than reliance on premade content. Not least because the premade content covers an extremely tiny fraction of the possibilities, and a rather boring fraction for that matter. The PHB backgrounds serve as a teaching tool, a guideline, and a possible source of inspiration, but in the end they are merely a starting point at best. In that sense, they fit the term training wheels more than anything else we are speaking of.

[Tanarii]

If someone told me "name a type of D&D gamer and we'll give you $10 for each person that fits that description," the very first words out of my mouth would not be "people looking to experience challenges", they'd be "guys who use characters as personal avatars."Hahaha yeah I certainly experienced a lot of people like that when I started playing thirty years ago. And still do in Encounters/AL. Luckily I live in a huge city so I can find plenty of home groups to match the style of play I prefer.

But We're clearly we're in agreement. Rolling is pointless if players are just trying to use it to get higher stats than normal and no low stats. Then it's time for an array or point buy.


-Congratulations on not experiencing groups that don't use the variant rules. Threads on this board and elsewhere have made it abundantly clear that such is most definitely not the norm.

-I call things for what they are. For the people that prefer playing a streamlined version of the game, that's fine, and I mean no insult. But for the rest of us, my point is very simple, the variant rules in question are default D&D. If you wish to play without them, that is your choice, but don't attempt to saddle others with your preferences by claiming it is the right way to play.Point Buy arises from organized play. That's it's history, and reason for existence.

My 'preference' is for Point Buy, then standard array, then rolling. I was pointing out its not the default rule in the PHB. And despite your claims based on 'threads', there are plenty of groups out there that don't use them. You just have to get out of relatively small online forums, and check out the upcoming game advertisements in any large gaming community. But I'll concede it's probably less common than array or point buy.


-Concerning the PHB backgrounds. Indeed, few players really know how to write a decent background. It is something quite difficult to learn. I even like the direction they went in setting up critical personality aspects, and I strongly suggest that players of all experience levels take a good long look at them. But even if the PHB backgrounds were a complete picture of a character (they most definitely are not), it is greatly preferable to show creativity rather than reliance on premade content. Not least because the premade content covers an extremely tiny fraction of the possibilities, and a rather boring fraction for that matter. The PHB backgrounds serve as a teaching tool, a guideline, and a possible source of inspiration, but in the end they are merely a starting point at best. In that sense, they fit the term training wheels more than anything else we are speaking of.Yeah, I can't disagree with that. The concept of a Background, and more importantly the structured Personality, is a good one. But certainly the tables for random rolling of Personality traits fit the description of 'starting point'. They make great sources of inspiration, and examples of what kind of things fall in to each aspect of the personality.

[CNagy]

Hahaha yeah I certainly experienced a lot of people like that when I started playing thirty years ago. And still do in Encounters/AL. Luckily I live in a huge city so I can find plenty of home groups to match the style of play I prefer.

But We're clearly we're in agreement. Rolling is pointless if players are just trying to use it to get higher stats than normal and no low stats. Then it's time for an array or point buy.

Yeah, I guess we are. I wouldn't hesitate to play or run a game using a rolling method if I was playing with any of the old timers that I played with when I was young, even a silly rolling method.

The longer I play with it, though, the more elegant I find the point buy. It sets a relative value between ASIs and feats. If I were ever lose my mind enough (or luck into a large enough fortune) to want to run another D&D association group with a large player base, I'd want to use the point buy. We had issues with a subset of characters who rolled legitimately lucky stats, though I imagine part of that was due to the really skewed bonus structure of AD&D.

[gfishfunk]

How about roll 2d6, 1d4, 1d8, drop lowest. :D

[Daishain]

I was pointing out its not the default rule in the PHB.and I was pointing out that its status as a variant rule is meaningless

[Tanarii]

and I was pointing out that its status as a variant rule is meaningless
Cool. We'll just have to think each other's points are pointlessly wrong then. :)

Ie I think I've managed to derail the thread enoug as is. ;)