Life Cleric stat bump order

[Lendário]

Hey.
So, i'm in doubt about the optimal order to bump my Stats.

27 Point buy, Hill Dwarf ( +2 CON +1 WIS )
Before Racial:

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 08
WIS 15
CHA 10

I considered going :

4: +2 WIS
8: +2 WIS
12: Resilient +1 CON
16: Heavy Armor master or Weapon Master +1 STR
19: +2 STR

Final Stats:

STR 18
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 08
WIS 20
CHA 10

Q: Is the order "optimal" ? Am i getting Resilient too late/fast? Is it even worth taking Resilient instead of 20 STR?

Heavy Armor Master vs Weapon Master, Which is the best choice?

[Dudu]

Why strenght?

From an optimization point of view, you either grab yourself a gauntlets of ogre strenght or, failing that, go with the Shilleilagh route (pretty strong route). In 5.0 you can't really count on magic items for builds in most campaigns.

The leaves room for 1 or 2 feats. If you choose a pure cleric of life, the only way to get Shilleilagh is with Magic Initiate feat, leaving only one feat left. If you choose a dip in druid, you can choose 2. Ritual caster for utility. Warcaster for keeping your buffs and letting you cast with your hands full.

With 10 Str you can boost other stats as well. Mostly, Int could help for knowledge skills and Cha for interaction, in case any of those 2 are a thing in your campaign.

Then again, I don't think you are loosing too much investing in strenght. Not a bad route, but don't think you will hit nearly as hard as a fighter. In some cases, you might just rely on your sacred flame cantrip for damage. In sum, it just doesn't sound "optimized" in my opinion.

[lordshadowisle]

Maxing wis first is generally strong, since it improves your spell dc and spells prepared. Resilient at level 12 does feel a bit delayed, though it'll be a great con save boost when you get it. I'll suggest playing it by ear, and taking it at level 8 (or even 4) if you feel you're dropping concentration too much.

As for the STR boost, I'm not so much a fan of it. Fighting in melee doesn't result in a big boost to your damage; divine strike only keeps pace with cantrip progression, so you're only usually only up by STR mod damage. It'll be perfectly ok to stick with sacred flame and 15 STR (for heaviest armors). Conveniently, if you stay out of melee range, you won't need to make concentration saves that often.

Lastly, for Heavy Armor master or Weapon Master, Heavy armor master is clearly better.
The damage reduction effect is comparatively weaker when you're only getting it as level 16, but it's a boost nonetheless. Weapon master is a weak feat that almost nobody in any build takes. As a dwarf, you have battleaxe and warhammer, which gives you the best die (1d8) for a one-handed melee, and that'll work if you go axe/hammer and shield. Warhammer is worse for 2 handed damage (only 1d10), but that's only if you're going 2 handed, and even then its only 1 more damage on average.

EDIT: 15 STR is actually not even required for armor, due to dwarf.

[Slipperychicken]

Weapon Master isn't a very good feat at all unless you really need some martial weapon proficiencies (you already have the dwarf ones anyway), and heavy armor master is essentially meaningless at level 16. Maybe you could get War Caster in addition to resilient(con) make sure you almost never fail a concentration check.


As a dwarven life cleric, you actually don't have much of a use for strength. The strength requirement for your armor is meaningless, since a dwarf's speed isn't reduced by wearing heavy armor. Since you're not getting any extra attacks (or even bonus attacks), your cantrips will scale way better than your weapon damage. If your DM is making you track encumbrance, I suggest just getting a mule/cart to carry your stuff instead. If your party has a good frontline, I think you'll be better served standing back and casting Sacred Flame on people when you can't think of a worthwhile spell to use.

Aside from that, your ASIs seem good. As long as you're getting that wisdom up, you're golden. I'd drop strength to 10 or 8, bump up dex to 14 and con to 15, and grab acrobatics to keep you from getting grappled as easily. You can leave dex at 12 and/or con at 14 if you want to increase your intelligence or charisma. Having int at 12 or 14 could be convenient if your DM makes those rolls matter, but that's far from guaranteed.

[Dudu]

Bumping Con to 15 is wise. You'll be damn hard to kill, that's for sure.

I don't get the 14 Dex, though. Isn't it better to just invest in mental stats and don a heavy armor?

[Slipperychicken]

Bumping Con to 15 is wise. You'll be damn hard to kill, that's for sure.

I don't get the 14 Dex, though. Isn't it better to just invest in mental stats and don a heavy armor?

Dex is for initiative, dex saves, and acrobatics. That helps keep him out of sticky situations, like being grappled by monsters. And making a dex save once in a while will mean he can afford to spend a little more of his healing on other PCs.

Intelligence and charisma can be useful if the DM makes them so, but this is not guaranteed. If this is how OP's DM works, then they are a fine investment.

[Lendário]

Weapon Master isn't a very good feat at all unless you really need some martial weapon proficiencies (you already have the dwarf ones anyway), and heavy armor master is essentially meaningless at level 16. Maybe you could get War Caster in addition to resilient(con) make sure you almost never fail a concentration check.


As a dwarven life cleric, you actually don't have much of a use for strength. The strength requirement for your armor is meaningless, since a dwarf's speed isn't reduced by wearing heavy armor. Since you're not getting any extra attacks (or even bonus attacks), your cantrips will scale way better than your weapon damage. If your DM is making you track encumbrance, I suggest just getting a mule/cart to carry your stuff instead. If your party has a good frontline, I think you'll be better served standing back and casting Sacred Flame on people when you can't think of a worthwhile spell to use.

Aside from that, your ASIs seem good. As long as you're getting that wisdom up, you're golden. I'd drop strength to 10 or 8, bump up dex to 14 and con to 15, and grab acrobatics to keep you from getting grappled as easily. You can leave dex at 12 and/or con at 14 if you want to increase your intelligence or charisma. Having int at 12 or 14 could be convenient if your DM makes those rolls matter, but that's far from guaranteed.

Wait really? As a Dwarf i don't actually need the STR to use the Heavy Armor? And i'm not penalized in any way?

About dropping meele combat for Sacred Flame. Is it really reliable? I mean, Won't the enemies pass the dex save pretty easily?

If i do drop meele combat, any reason not to use 2 shields then?

Is Life Domain even worth it at that point anymore?

[Slipperychicken]

Wait really? As a Dwarf i don't actually need the STR to use the Heavy Armor? And i'm not penalized in any way?

About dropping meele combat for Sacred Flame. Is it really reliable? I mean, Won't the enemies pass the dex save pretty easily?

If i do drop meele combat, any reason not to use 2 shields then?

Is Life Domain even worth it at that point anymore?

Armor: Dwarves only ignore the movement speed penalty from a low strength. That's different from proficiency. If they're not proficient in the armor, they still get disadvantage on everything and can't cast spells.

2 Shields: You don't get the AC benefit from that. Here is a link to Sage advice, with Mearls himself confirming it (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/14/wielding-two-shields/).

Life domain worth it: I think it's a solid option for the healing powers alone, but each of the domains has its uses.

Sacred Flame: You'll have a good save DC, so the chance to land it is pretty good. Probably better most of the time, since you're using your primary stat for it and monsters tend to have pretty bad dex scores. Also, it's radiant damage, which is hardly ever resisted. If you notice an enemy that's likely to have amazing dex (will-o-wisps have like 20-something?), then consider casting a different spell. I've seen it in-game from levels 1 to 6 (coincidentally, on a life cleric who had 14 strength and was fond of using her mace), and it was pretty much always better than her mace.

[Dudu]

Yeah, don't let the divine strike feature fools you. They barely are able to catch up with cantrip damage progression most of time. Maybe for Tempest and War clerics since they have martial proficiency and might find a powerful magic weapon (campaign dependent).

About Life cleric, I'm not particularly fond of this domain. You certainly can't fail with this domain, much less being a hill dwarf. You're the guy who will remain alive while keeping everyone else alive as well, which is solid.

My problem with Life domain is that it is too much healing. A bit too much, perhaps? Maybe if your team is getting bashed really badly it might be worth it. But them again, it might be more worth to kill whatever creature is punishing your allies rather than control the damage in combat.

I think clercis excell at keeping your team member alive, yes, but not necessarily with healing. Bless helps their saves and also to hit more. Ressurecting (like Revivify) brings them back if something went horribly wrong. I'm playing with a Tempest Cleric right now, it' pretty amazing the ammount of damage he can dish while his ability to keep his comrades alive isn't that diminished. If you want damage at will, consider a domain that has martial weapon prof. or ones that let you add wisdom to cantrip damage.

That said, Life Cleric definitely isn't bad. I just think you shouldn't concern with hitting the enemies very hard with a morning star. That doesn't enhance the Life Cleric so much. Radiant damage from Sacred Flame is just fine. If you max Wis by lvl 8, you won't have much problem with landing it. Also, you Spiritual Weapon will be pretty strong. Right now, with my Tempest Cleric, most enemies fail their saves and he has 18 Wis (he is lvl 6). So, it's not like your cleric will be harmless if he ignores weapon damage.

[bardo]

Life Cleric is a plain Cleric. The domain gives you spells you want prepared anyway, so you can prepare more unusual spells. Disciple of Life and Preserve Life means you will use fewer spell slots on healing, have more spell slots left to cast those unusual spells.

The reasons to go into melee is your high AC (full plate and shield, right?) making enemies swing and miss, and Blessed Healer that heals yourself when you heal others, so you're a good damage sponge. A Life Cleric can go front line. A Life Cleric can stand near the squishies and be their meat-and-metal shield. Switch as needed depending on the situation. You can go into melee and swing, you just won't be doing that much damage using your attack action. Divine Strike comes late at level 8, and is just slightly better than cantrip damage for a few levels until cantrip overtakes it.

For that reason, and for being a Hill Dwarf, you really don't need STR. As a Hill Dwarf Life Cleric you can wear full plate and a shield on a STR 8 and still move at 25. Your ability points are better spent elsewhere.

If what you want to do is hit people over the head with the warhammer of justice, maybe look at the Paladin class. 5e doesn't require a full-time healer. Healing in combat isn't very efficient compared to avoiding damage and killing faster. So depending on your party composition you might be able to fill the role of main healer as a Paladin, and also smack the baddies over the head.

Bardo.

[Slipperychicken]

My problem with Life domain is that it is too much healing. A bit too much, perhaps? Maybe if your team is getting bashed really badly it might be worth it. But them again, it might be more worth to kill whatever creature is punishing your allies rather than control the damage in combat.


It's not so easy to just kill things faster in 5e. Enemies have a lot more health than they used to. If your party members aren't using great tactics and coordination (which is pretty much a certainty since most players are really new, casual, and/or uncoordinated), or if they get unlucky, or the DM throws a tough fight at them, then they'll take a lot of damage and need to be healed frequently.

It's also helpful if you don't get many short rests. The game is balanced rather rigidly around assumptions of regular hour-long rests, and most plots just don't support that. That extra healing lets your party press on a little longer.

[Tanarii]

The reasons to go into melee is your high AC (full plate and shield, right?) making enemies swing and miss, and Blessed Healer that heals yourself when you heal others, so you're a good damage sponge. A Life Cleric can go front line. A Life Cleric can stand near the squishies and be their meat-and-metal shield. Switch as needed depending on the situation. You can go into melee and swing, you just won't be doing that much damage using your attack action. Divine Strike comes late at level 8, and is just slightly better than cantrip damage for a few levels until cantrip overtakes it.

For that reason, and for being a Hill Dwarf, you really don't need STR. As a Hill Dwarf Life Cleric you can wear full plate and a shield on a STR 8 and still move at 25. Your ability points are better spent elsewhere.Very well said on the front lines bit. Heavy Armor Clerics should definitely be thinking in terms of being on the front lines at least some of the time. Especially in the unlikely event you have a traditional four person party, and are with with one warrior (Fighter/Pally/Barb), one mobile (Rogue/Monk/Ranger) and one squishy caster (Sorc/Wiz/lock).

But if you're going to be on the front lines, an effective OA is always nice to have. Not critical, or core to the concept. Just nice. Dumping Str means dumping your OA. Unless you take Warcaster of course.