Charm in Combat

[Mad_Saulot]

I've always been confused by Charm spells, I am curious how everyone deals with charm in and out of combat.

Now the spell description says the charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance, what does this actually mean and how far might they go in order to help you?

I've always avoided using creatures or npc's in my games that use charm and have been fortunate in that none of my players have ever been interested in enchantment spells.

Like would a charmed guard suddenly decide to switch sides in a fight, or a magistrate rule in your favour even though your guilt was obvious to all?

What about charming shop keepers, would they give you free stuff or a massive discount?

[The1exile]

In combat I've always been a fan of the way Chris Perkins handled it in an Acquisitons Incorporated game and have that one creature be friendly to only the caster, and thus he might attack his friends (if they were attacking the caster) but he might also continue to attack other party members.

As to shops, I guess they might give mates' rates with some further persuasion but even if they;re friends most merchants are probably not going to stay in business selling their goods at cost. It could be good to get around foreigner taxes or something, though.

[Shaofoo]

Would a shopkeep just give away stuff to his friend when they ask for it or even a massive discount? Just because the target regards it as friendly it isn't going out of their way and bending their back to make it as comfortable as possible. Even there are some things that being friends won't allow you to do no matter what.

Also a charmed fighter will not turn on his friends just because he likes you. He won't attack you per the charmed condition but don't think that he won't target your other group as well.

Also do note that a person that is charmed doesn't forget the time that was spent charmed. So if you were able to swindle the shopkeep out of some goods he will remember that you probably used a spell when he comes to. Also considering that there are verbal and somatic components and a range of 30 feet there is a very good chance that the target might remember that someone did cast a spell.

[mephnick]

I never got the "will attack his own party when charmed" mentality. Just because you're friendly to one person doesn't mean you now hate your old friends. If my best friend attacked my other best friend I wouldn't chop his head off.

At most I'd have the character spend a round pleading for his group to stop attacking his new friend and then maybe try to wrestle someone to the ground to prevent everyone from hurting each other. Maybe call the guards (if possible) to re-establish order.

As for shops, yeah, it's not domination. I wouldn't destroy my family's future because a friend wanted my best item.

[rlc]

I never got the "will attack his own party when charmed" mentality. Just because you're friendly to one person doesn't mean you now hate your old friends. If my best friend attacked my other best friend I wouldn't chop his head off.

It comes down to your frame of reference, really. In some games (mostly video games) it actually does work that way.

[MaxWilson]

It comes down to your frame of reference, really. In some games (mostly video games) it actually does work that way.

In original D&D it did work exactly that way, permanently. IIRC Bigby was originally an NPC wizard that Mordenkainen charmed into joining his side. Every successive edition since then has weakened Charm Person further until we are now at 5E, and it gives you advantage on social ability checks against the target and prevents them from attacking you, and that's all.

[unwise]

No matter how many times I explain Charm to my players, they still keep casting it thinking it is a domination spell.

One guy cast it on a guard in the lord's keep during a fight, then expected him to attack his friends. They guard instead kept trying to get him to surrender, saying he could cover for him and say he was under duress, or secretly working for the guards or something. In the end the guard disarmed him, grappled him and dragged him away from the fight to keep his idiot 'friend' safe. I thought I was being very generous there, most guards in that circumstance would have hacked down the friendly acquaintance in order to protect their other friends, their lord and their job.

PCs also tend to forget what orcs and ogres are happy to do to 'friendly acquaintances'. They don't seem to realize that just because they punch you in the face, does not mean they don't like you.

A PC cast Charm on a Bhaal cultist, who they knew full well was befriending people then murdering them, as he needed 5 hearts of friends in order to be initiated to the next level and summon an angel of murder. He cast charm on the guy, tried to interrogate him, then turned his back on the guy. Dead PC. On the upside, his ritual failed and the angel of murder consumed him, as one of the 5 hearts he used was the PCs and it was not a friend's.

[SharkForce]

No matter how many times I explain Charm to my players, they still keep casting it thinking it is a domination spell.

One guy cast it on a guard in the lord's keep during a fight, then expected him to attack his friends. They guard instead kept trying to get him to surrender, saying he could cover for him and say he was under duress, or secretly working for the guards or something. In the end the guard disarmed him, grappled him and dragged him away from the fight to keep his idiot 'friend' safe. I thought I was being very generous there, most guards in that circumstance would have hacked down the friendly acquaintance in order to protect their other friends, their lord and their job.

PCs also tend to forget what orcs and ogres are happy to do to 'friendly acquaintances'. They don't seem to realize that just because they punch you in the face, does not mean they don't like you.

A PC cast Charm on a Bhaal cultist, who they knew full well was befriending people then murdering them, as he needed 5 hearts of friends in order to be initiated to the next level and summon an angel of murder. He cast charm on the guy, tried to interrogate him, then turned his back on the guy. Dead PC. On the upside, his ritual failed and the angel of murder consumed him, as one of the 5 hearts he used was the PCs and it was not a friend's.

charm *explicitly* prevents the charmee from attacking the charmer. the guard probably still won't be terribly helpful in that situation and the bhaal cultist probably won't stop trying to perform the ritual, but they also absolutely will not attack the one that charmed them, period, end of discussion, even if they would do that to a friendly acquaintance.

but yes, in general it is important to remember that the charmed person doesn't suddenly hate former allies, nor do they cease to have personal motivations. but on the other hand, it is also important to remember that it makes the person think of you as a friend; you probably aren't going to get them to sacrifice their life or livelihood for you, but you might be able to persuade the guy guarding your cell to let you escape and make it look like he wasn't involved in it, or for the gate guard to let you through even though you "forgot your papers" or something (but a lot less likely if there are two guards and the other one is also watching).

[E’Tallitnics]

I've always been confused by Charm spells, I am curious how everyone deals with charm in and out of combat.

Now the spell description says the charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance, what does this actually mean and how far might they go in order to help you?

I've always avoided using creatures or npc's in my games that use charm and have been fortunate in that none of my players have ever been interested in enchantment spells.

Like would a charmed guard suddenly decide to switch sides in a fight, or a magistrate rule in your favour even though your guilt was obvious to all?

What about charming shop keepers, would they give you free stuff or a massive discount?

“Charmed” is a Condition (PH, p.290).

Once under that Condition, how the creature acts/reacts is not only up to the DM, but the role playing of the charmer, in the that specific situation.

I.E.: Too many variables to easily answer.

[Mad_Saulot]

Cheers for the info guys, thats all quite clear.

How would you handle a situation where one of your players (The Stinge, Mountain Dwarf, Barbarian5/Rogue1, CE) got into a bar brawl and "Accidentally on purpose" caved in some random scumbag's face using only his fists, to be then subsequently arrested and put on trial, could one of his spellcaster mates then represent him in court and then cast charm on the judge. How might things proceed?

[SharkForce]

Cheers for the info guys, thats all quite clear.

How would you handle a situation where one of your players (The Stinge, Mountain Dwarf, Barbarian5/Rogue1, CE) got into a bar brawl and "Accidentally on purpose" caved in some random scumbag's face using only his fists, to be then subsequently arrested and put on trial, could one of his spellcaster mates then represent him in court and then cast charm on the judge. How might things proceed?

depends a lot on the judge. but it had better be an extremely short trial if you're hoping to charm the judge, influence him (you'll need to use social skills and roleplaying to get him to do what you want, and you only have advantage not auto-success so you better be pretty convincing too), win the trial, and get out of town before the judge realizes you used a charm spell. assuming, that is, that you can even get a private audience with the judge where you could cast the spell and use your social skills just before the trial starts, which is pretty unlikely.

so, given 5e's version of charm, i'd say this plan has way too many points of failure to even bother trying. if you're that desperate, i recommend you try a different plan entirely. you might actually have a better chance of success in a full frontal assault on the jail, for example (even if your friend is sentenced to death, they'll probably schedule the execution for the next day).

[PoeticDwarf]

Just think -what would I do if I see that guy as my friend-

[Mad_Saulot]

The Stinge never actually made it to trial, The Chancellor got him released because he needed some dirty work taken care of. I was just curious how charm might be used under those circumstances.

[Flashy]

I generally assume a subtle spell sorcerer in this sort of scenario, since they have the greatest flexibility with it and that's what we're trying to establish.

At the end of the day though most situations that benefit from the low level charm spells benefit as much or more from an application of Enhance Ability: Charisma. Same strict mechanical benefit, it works on everyone you meet, there's no risk of spell failure, it lasts for ages, and there's no caveat for people realizing they've been enchanted after the fact.

[SharkForce]

yup, the only thing charm really does better is keep people from attacking you.

[Demonslayer666]

Cheers for the info guys, thats all quite clear.

How would you handle a situation where one of your players (The Stinge, Mountain Dwarf, Barbarian5/Rogue1, CE) got into a bar brawl and "Accidentally on purpose" caved in some random scumbag's face using only his fists, to be then subsequently arrested and put on trial, could one of his spellcaster mates then represent him in court and then cast charm on the judge. How might things proceed?

Spell casting is not subtle. The judge will know you are casting a spell, as well as everyone in the room. This most likely would not be allowed in a trial setting.

Charm makes them friendly towards you. Even if you charm the judge, they may have a strong sense of justice, and give friends very little leeway. Charming him could result in a light sentence or warning, or insult the judge and bring a harsher sentence wen you ask him to bend the law. It's up to you as DM to decide how the judge would treat a request from a friend for leniency on a defendant.

Consider your story and where you want to take it. It is important to the story that this character get detained? If not, it might be best to let him off with a warning.

[Mad_Saulot]

Spell casting is not subtle. The judge will know you are casting a spell, as well as everyone in the room. This most likely would not be allowed in a trial setting.

Charm makes them friendly towards you. Even if you charm the judge, they may have a strong sense of justice, and give friends very little leeway. Charming him could result in a light sentence or warning, or insult the judge and bring a harsher sentence wen you ask him to bend the law. It's up to you as DM to decide how the judge would treat a request from a friend for leniency on a defendant.

Consider your story and where you want to take it. It is important to the story that this character get detained? If not, it might be best to let him off with a warning.

The culture we are playing in is modeled after the ancient Gothic Culture, and so a trial by combat would have been appropriate, but since the victim was lowly street scum The Stinge would have gotten away with just paying a fine or by paying blood-money to the victims family if he had any. So even if the chancellor hadnt come along when he did the players would have been fine.

Cheers for your answers though, I am curious as to how charm might be utilised in a positive way by players not attempting to take advantage.

[rlc]

Charm is all about taking advantage. You get advantage on checks you normally might not.

[Joe the Rat]

For trial purposes, you'd be better off with a Warlock. Hex the Judge's Wisdom, or the Prosecutor's Charisma, and Persuade (or Deceive) like there's no tomorrow. If you have two Warlocks, get both.

GOO really helps with the secret discussions and feeding information, but Fiend Lawyerlocks have a certain... style about them.

Keeping it in the Charm family, suggestion has a 24 hour time limit on that simple command. "You will find The Stinge to be not guilty," should fit the requirements. Best clear out of town once it's over, though.

[MaxWilson]

depends a lot on the judge. but it had better be an extremely short trial if you're hoping to charm the judge, influence him (you'll need to use social skills and roleplaying to get him to do what you want, and you only have advantage not auto-success so you better be pretty convincing too), win the trial, and get out of town before the judge realizes you used a charm spell. assuming, that is, that you can even get a private audience with the judge where you could cast the spell and use your social skills just before the trial starts, which is pretty unlikely.

Geas charms the target for thirty days. I can't remember if it's on the sorc list, but Subtle Geas has definite potential. It doesn't even matter what you Geas him to do.

[Vogonjeltz]

I've always been confused by Charm spells, I am curious how everyone deals with charm in and out of combat.

Now the spell description says the charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance, what does this actually mean and how far might they go in order to help you?

I've always avoided using creatures or npc's in my games that use charm and have been fortunate in that none of my players have ever been interested in enchantment spells.

Like would a charmed guard suddenly decide to switch sides in a fight, or a magistrate rule in your favour even though your guilt was obvious to all?

What about charming shop keepers, would they give you free stuff or a massive discount?

Refer to the Charmed Condition, found in Appendix A: Conditions (PHB 290).

In the case of a combatant, they would be unable to attack the charmer or use harmful abilities or spells on them.

Edit: in too late

[rollingForInit]

Cheers for the info guys, thats all quite clear.

How would you handle a situation where one of your players (The Stinge, Mountain Dwarf, Barbarian5/Rogue1, CE) got into a bar brawl and "Accidentally on purpose" caved in some random scumbag's face using only his fists, to be then subsequently arrested and put on trial, could one of his spellcaster mates then represent him in court and then cast charm on the judge. How might things proceed?

Is the judge corrupt or not? If yes, it'd probably be better to bribe him. That way he's incriminated as well, and won't hate you afterwards. A Charmed judge will likely be quite upset afterwards.

If the judge isn't corrupt, he's probaly used to end up in situations where he's got to to judge his friends. If there are other judges, he'd probably recuse himself (so you might get a better judge, or a worse one). At best, he'd probably give your character a fair trial, as he sees you as friendly. No abuse of his power to shut you down, but certainly no lenience. That is, unless the trial takes more than the spell's duration. If it does, he'll probably have you all in jail for magically influencing the court.

Or worse. Honestly, I think this is something that's overlooked in D&D settings, but I feel that if magic existed in our world, it'd be super illegal to magically influence people. Take away someone's free will? That's like mental rape.

[Gwendol]

Charms are for influencing the actions of others, but in general (because of the non-subtle nature of spellcasting) you are better off being proficient in Persuasion.

[Zalabim]

Charm Person makes them friendly. Enhance ability just gives you advantage. There are requests you can make of friends that you can't make of people who are hostile. That's why you'd ever use Charm Person instead.

[Mad_Saulot]

All this has given me a new found appreciation of the value of the metamagic subtlety feat esp for enchanters/illusionists.

[Shining Wrath]

If someone is Charmed, it is as though the caster has a Charming personality from their perspective. That's about it. They'll act like they like the caster. And yes, look at the Charmed condition.

Ask your players how much control they'd want to surrender if a fey charmed them. That is a quick path to their understanding it's not a Dominate.

The combat uses are limited once people start hurting each other. If the charmer goes first or early they might be able to get someone to waste their first round trying to prevent a fight; but once hit points start falling anyone loyal to his friends is going to wade in, reluctantly. They'll attack other people by preference.

[Flashy]

If players use Charm Person in combat I generally treat it as though the target suddenly thinks of the caster as their very good friend who has unexpectedly arrived to help them defeat the rest of the party. So they might try to call out to the caster, or try to let them into their formation, or protect them from the rest of the party, or otherwise act the way you would if someone you basically trusted suddenly turned up in the middle of your enemies.

It obviously doesn't make them instantly flip sides, but this is a situation that clever players should be able to exploit. Cries of "Quick [victim's name], you've been duped! These people are illusions/pod people/bodysnatchers from the 5th dimension!" might get you something after an appropriate skill check. Or you could turn the situation around on them, going: "Dear god, [victim's name], these fiends have enchanted you!! Quick everyone, help him!" After all, from the victim's perspective their good friend just showed up to save them right? It just turns out they're being saved from a different situation than they initially thought.

Basically it's not an automatic I win button, but I think creative play should still be rewarded.

[Mad_Saulot]

If players use Charm Person in combat I generally treat it as though the target suddenly thinks of the caster as their very good friend who has unexpectedly arrived to help them defeat the rest of the party. So they might try to call out to the caster, or try to let them into their formation, or protect them from the rest of the party, or otherwise act the way you would if someone you basically trusted suddenly turned up in the middle of your enemies.

It obviously doesn't make them instantly flip sides, but this is a situation that clever players should be able to exploit. Cries of "Quick [victim's name], you've been duped! These people are illusions/pod people/bodysnatchers from the 5th dimension!" might get you something after an appropriate skill check. Or you could turn the situation around on them, going: "Dear god, [victim's name], these fiends have enchanted you!! Quick everyone, help him!" After all, from the victim's perspective their good friend just showed up to save them right? It just turns out they're being saved from a different situation than they initially thought.

Basically it's not an automatic I win button, but I think creative play should still be rewarded.

Imagine you are in a fight, and a mate suddenly appears telling you all your other mates were infact evil fey or whatever, what would you do?

Be honest lol

[lsfreak]

In general, charming someone would mean they try desperately to defuse the situation or break up the fight, depending on when exactly it's cast. Unless they happen to be fighting alongside people that they don't know or actively dislike, they're not going to actually go over to the charmer's side. Or perhaps a small chance of turning on their comrades if the charmer is the "closest" friend of the group, just like if you're in a mixed group and someone mortally attacks your best friend, some people will respond in rage with equal force (while others will probably collapse in a mess of tears, and others run away or try and find help).

[Flashy]

Imagine you are in a fight, and a mate suddenly appears telling you all your other mates were infact evil fey or whatever, what would you do?

Be honest lol

Nothing, but I don't know anyone with persuasion expertise, I don't live in a world inhabited by evil fey, and I'm not under the influence of mind altering magic.

Again, it's not free, but what the player is suggesting is technically possible. Hitting a DC 20 persuasion check is possible in this situation, and it might at least make the victim seriously question their assumptions.

[Sigreid]

In original D&D it did work exactly that way, permanently. IIRC Bigby was originally an NPC wizard that Mordenkainen charmed into joining his side. Every successive edition since then has weakened Charm Person further until we are now at 5E, and it gives you advantage on social ability checks against the target and prevents them from attacking you, and that's all.

Not exactly permanently. Depending on who you cast it on they got a new save once a month, or week or day. Also, what it did was it made them view you as their most cherished companion. the wording went so far as to say they will not under take any action that is obviously suicidal, but might be persuaded to hold of a red dragon for a round or two.

[MaxWilson]

Not exactly permanently. Depending on who you cast it on they got a new save once a month, or week or day. Also, what it did was it made them view you as their most cherished companion. the wording went so far as to say they will not under take any action that is obviously suicidal, but might be persuaded to hold of a red dragon for a round or two.

No, really, permanently. Or until dispelled.

From http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/08/on-early-tropes-charm-person.html


From the Original Dungeons & Dragons text:
Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the "Undead" class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the "charm" is dispelled (Dispell Magic). Range: 12".- [Vol-1, p. 23]


"Mordenkainen was my first magic-user PC, as a matter of fact. In a fairly early stage of his adventuring career, Mordenkainen encountered a NPC in a dungeon, used Charm Person, and thus gained an apprentice. Bigby was then only 3rd level. After having him as a flunky for a fair number of adventures, I started playing Bigby as my PC." -Gary Gygax